SSBM: Stage Banishment and Reasoning

[Takalth]

I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to ignore you. I guess I just didn't notice your post. Apologies.

1. Stuff like Hyrule? Yeah, I can see that. It'd be impossible to catch someone who knew what they were doing there. But I think if you were paying attention, then you could catch someone on Great Bay easily enough. Also, how much range do Sheik's needles have, anyway?

2. At first, obviously not, but if it made things work better in the long run, yeah.

True, I did use Hyrule in both of my examples, but some, such as Yoshi 64 would also have problems even after lots of bans. I think for the most part, though, people would greatly prefer banning stages to a hybrid of banning stages and characters (if you have to ban a character to make a stage legal, I'd rather have the character)

Banning stages is a dumb idea, no matter the cheap tactics. Although, however an unapetizing thought that is, banning characters is a stupid, ludicrous idea, and shouldn't even be considered in serious conversation.

Even if you do ban the characters that those cheap tactics are done the easiest with, people will just pick the characters closest to the top of the tier list and continue doing those cheap tactics.

Despite this argument, there has to be a better way besides banning stages.

It's easy to point at a problem. It's hard to point at a solution. Until you can present a better solution, you shouldn't call the existing one stupid.

 

[Harry Megamix]

It's easy to point at a problem. It's hard to point at a solution. Until you can present a better solution, you shouldn't call the existing one stupid.

I did, actually--a few pages back.

 

[Keige]

Knee FTW

If anyone cares I've gotten used to my wired controller and I'm getting good with Falcon.

And banning characters<<<<<<<<<<<banning stages.
But if two people pick characters that can't abuse cheap tactics on a particular stage, the stage should be allowed.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

AlphaZealot really put a lot of work into this, and it is a very good read. It needs to be archived somewhere or even stickied!

 

[PrinnyFlute]

Awesome thread! Even as a "casual" player, I really appreciate the thought and logic put into all of this.

Suppose my thoughts on the whole tournament stage thing is something akin to what's been brought up: I think banning a stage for potential poor sportsmanship is a bit silly, and just like umps and refs, it would be more becoming to simply have a judge punish those who play unfairly. But I know that's hardly an easy thing to implement, and it's much more reasonable and easily handled by just cutting off some painful stages. Keep up the good work.

 

[NusCirtap]

I've always wondered about everything, though I knew most of it, subscribing so I can read some of it later maybe. >_>

 

[@!?27]

I see no point in banning stages in Melee. So what if some opponent uses a cheap move. The change of that happening is about 5%. Also, I have been playing Melee for a long time and I use most of the characters. Why take out the fun stages? Melee is suppose to be a party game not a fighting game like Marvel vs. Capcom 2 or Neo Geo Coliseum. Also, people that actually go to the Smash tournaments are 1% of Smash players. Lastly, I think nothing should be banned in Melee or Brawl. If you see a fighting game like Marvel vs. Capcom 2, nothing is banned not even the God tier characters like Storm or Cable. And infinites are allowed in the touraments. Another thing is I do not get annoyed if people use cheap tactics to win. To me it is just a game. Also, this is my opinion about the banning of stages which is that no stage should be banned. The game is supposed to be fun not boring.

About banning stages in Brawl:
I also think that no stages should be banned. If nothing was banned then more people would go to Smash tournaments and more people would come to this site.

And if I get flamed for this for expressing my opinion and being called a noob, I don't really care what you say to me. There would be no point and I will ignore you.

Edit: Also, the percentages I made are guesses.

 

[bluethree]

I don't have time to argue you point by point. I'll just post a quick rebuttal.

Tournaments are not the same kind of fun as "people playing a party game" fun. Tournaments exist so people can test their skills against other players. When doing so, a player will want to take out as much randomness or cheap, game-breaking tactics out as possible.

Melee IS a fighting game. It's just a different kind of fighting game. The other games don't need to have anything banned because there's not as many random elements in them as Smash has. Smash may be about wacky fun and randomness, but Smash tournaments are about a game of skill.

 

[2007]

So, if Peach, Fox and Falco get nerfed like Ness and kirby, and Marth does not return, we'll be able to play on about 80% of the stages.
I hate Peach and Marth.

 

[Takalth]

Also, people that actually go to the Smash tournaments are 1% of Smash players.

In other words, you don't even know what this thread is about.

This isn't about passing a law that doesn't allow people to play on certain stages. This isn't about hiring a group of smash ninjas to spy on people's houses and go break their arms if they select Brinstar Depths.

This is about banning stages IN TOURNAMENTS. If you're not part of that 1% (or however many it is) this has absolutely no effect on you. If you are, it only affects you at tournaments, which is probably a very small percentage of your playing time.

 

[Xaron Fisk]

good read. i hadn't known onett got the boot.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Fine fine lol, i'm just saying i think it's rediculous that people use methods like this too win.

Two Reasons:

1. Do what works.

2. Do whatever the hell you can to win.

 

[Aminar]

Mushroom Kingdom - Princess Peach's Castle (banned ~ 2006)
Inherent Flaw(s): The divide through the center.
Reason(s): Moderately unfair positional advantage for defensive player
Broken Tactic(s): Debatable, but theoretically certain characters like Marth or Peach can grab a lead and never relinquish it because the offensive player will always take more damage upon approach than he will be able to dish out in return.
Personal Reason for Opening the Stage: The bullet creates several openings during the game in which the camper must relinquish his position. If the losing, offensive player simply waits for the openings, he should be able to make up whatever percentage lead he had previously lost (ideally he would only be down small percentages).

It seems to me that the freeze frames from hitting the button are enough reason to ban this stage. They can screw over recovery and combo's without you being able to know they are there. And it's real easy to take advantage of those freeze frames.

 

[NeoFalconHavok]

Wouldn't it be smarter to just ban fox considering the major reasons for those stage bannings include him? Hell SF2 players banned Akuma for a reason.

 

[Steel Braxus]

Wow. Those are crappy reasons to ban stages. The point of SSB is to have fun and not worry about 'moderate' advantages to certain characters in certain stages. Sheesh...

 

[susu_atari]

I really think it's time to give up on people who don't understand tournement rules. I don't go to tournements, and I don't play by tournement rules when playing with friends (except for irony's sake), but I do understand that there are some stages where there is an advantage to a player 100% of the time.

Also, if you're playing for $5000, ANY reason, however trivial, is reason enough.

So far, the stages we've seen on Brawl all look absolutely fine. If the stage effects are timed and predictable, rather than random, I wouldn't see any reason to ban any of the stages.

 

[Misto-Roboto]

I really think it's time to give up on people who don't understand tournement rules. I don't go to tournements, and I don't play by tournement rules when playing with friends (except for irony's sake), but I do understand that there are some stages where there is an advantage to a player 100% of the time.

Also, if you're playing for $5000, ANY reason, however trivial, is reason enough.

So far, the stages we've seen on Brawl all look absolutely fine. If the stage effects are timed and predictable, rather than random, I wouldn't see any reason to ban any of the stages.

For $5000 trivial does not matter, because then anyone can complain for any reason.

 

[NeoFalconHavok]

ok now see there's where a line needs to be drawn. "It's for tournaments only and it's $5000" Thats understandable, HOWEVER...

When you are not in a tournament and people will actually try to apply the same rules mentality outside of that environment (yes I have these types of people at my school), thats where things just need to be dropped. There's no money to be gained in casual matches and half the time, it's just supposed to be silly fun. But the thing is when people take this to far, as in urge every player that wants to play smash for a while to play by the same rules regardless if they're tourney goers or not even at pro level, what you're doing is forcing people to abide by rules set by a community they don't even care for.

Eh, im prolly gonna get responses like "THEN DONT PLAY THEM LOLZ" so w/e. If its for $5000 bucks, knock yourself, but keep the disease where it belongs.

 

[Red Exodus]

Wow. Those are crappy reasons to ban stages. The point of SSB is to have fun and not worry about 'moderate' advantages to certain characters in certain stages. Sheesh...

That's for you and your friends, not for the tournament community. Why sign up to a website that is CLEARLY about tournament play when all you want to do is goof around. Go to gamefaqs if you wanna goof around so much.

Wouldn't it be smarter to just ban fox considering the major reasons for those stage bannings include him? Hell SF2 players banned Akuma for a reason.

Correct me if I'm wrong but even the best players couldn't beat a noob using Akuma, that isn't the case with Fox.

 

[Sliq]

Hey guys, this page got featured on Encyclopedia Dramatica! We're internet superstars now!

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/

Search for "Tourneyfag,"

Not trying to sensor bypass, just pointing out how to locate the article, which I think is hysterical, btw.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Hey guys, this page got featured on Encyclopedia Dramatica! We're internet superstars now!

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/

Search for "Tourneyfag,"

Not trying to sensor bypass, just pointing out how to locate the article, which I think is hysterical, btw.

It didn't work for me. >_>

 

[Spellman]

I never put a lot of thought into the serious advantages that some characters get on certain levels, but a lot of it seems to hold true.

Although, I do agree with your personal reasons for bringing some of the stages back.

Aw man, I didn't want to think about all that though, you're right, Brawl levels so far are going to be ripped apart by tournament committees.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Wow. Those are crappy reasons to ban stages. The point of SSB is to have fun and not worry about 'moderate' advantages to certain characters in certain stages. Sheesh...

In friendlies yeah, because when no money is on the line you wont do anything to win.

But say if hyrule temple was on, you pick fox, you shoot a few lasers, you run around the stage till the timer runs out.

theres good reasons for these stages being banned for a fair competition so no one feels like they lost because of something really lame, and even then you can still counterpick corneria in teams and do double falco lasering from the wing. FUN... not.

In friendlies though, yes even at tournaments, you should make your own rules depending on who you play with in order to optomize the fun. For sure.

If you don't understand these rules, or the purpose of the thread, you really are missing the point. No one is telling you what to do and no one gives a **** which stages you play on with your friends.


edit :

@ Sliq

I think I half inspired that article, its linked on the ''Dylan Tnga'' page. I dont find it that funny though, I love fox only final destination though that was a good one.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

It's kind of disturbing that a lot of the banned things and the tactics can be traced back to money.

5 grand beans can make a guy do anything...

or ban anything...

or just be an arse with Fox...

 

[Sliq]

@ Sliq

I think I half inspired that article, its linked on the ''Dylan Tnga'' page. I dont find it that funny though, I love fox only final destination though that was a good one.

Yeah, I know, I read your article which linked me to that one. You need to relax. The internet isn't serious business until you make it so. =/

That article is the perfect troll for anyone on SWF that plays competitively.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Since we're supposed to be discussing Brawl stages, I'll give my take:

Battlefield: Random, same as in melee, the glitchy edges might be gone.

Lylat Cruise: Random, Seems a lot like Battlefield.

Yoshi's Strory: I hope the clouds are on a timer. Random or CP, though I think Random

Delfino Plaza: Like Mute city, but without cars. The walk off sides aren't bad since there's no waveshining. Counterpick

Skyworld: counterpick, because of hyrule teching, and the overall weirdness.

Smashville: Very Balanced, Random

Eldin: Banned, hazards seem like a big deal

WarioWare: The whole stage is about randomness and randomness = bad

PS 2: From what I hear, there are some hazards, so maybe counterpick

Halberd: From Gimpyfish's report, the hazards aren't that big of a deal and it could be counterpick

Shadow Moses Island: I have no Idea, but I would go for banned because of the walls, and hazards (there are some, right?)

New Pork City: Banned, Camping squared.

Picto Chat: Banned, seems like a lot of hazards

The Summit: Looks like a counterpick stage to me, as it moves in cycles and not randomly. Looks sorta like Dream Cruise or whatever it's called in melee.


Just my 2 cents.

 

[Problem2]

Alot of these stages are banned because of Fox's laser camping which results in percentage win, but yet the game itself doesn't use percentage to determine a winner, and I think we shouldn't either. The same number of stock should result in a sudden death.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Alot of these stages are banned because of Fox's laser camping which results in percentage win, but yet the game itself doesn't use percentage to determine a winner, and I think we shouldn't either. The same number of stock should result in a sudden death.

Except that sudden death is horribly based on luck due to the bob ombs that are lurking in the sky, waiting to homocidably dive down on unsuspecting smashers.

 

[Red Exodus]

Hey guys, this page got featured on Encyclopedia Dramatica! We're internet superstars now!

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/

Search for "Tourneyfag,"

Not trying to sensor bypass, just pointing out how to locate the article, which I think is hysterical, btw.

It's funny how we have no lives when they spend all their time on the internet making fun of people who don't really care. Making a whole web page about us isn't going to change us but I guess 4chan is too ******** to understand.

Congratulations 4channers, you win for being internetfags, [see what I did there? I added the word fag to something! I'm so cool].

 

[Xtremee]

I wonder why in all explanations Fox is used as an example....

for Own Sake Pro's make the game look boring... where is all the fun when you can't even attack your opponet because he is so PRO in FInal Destination if you are so pro why can't you be Pro in ALL THE FReAKING STAGES?!!!!

 

[Takalth]

Alot of these stages are banned because of Fox's laser camping which results in percentage win, but yet the game itself doesn't use percentage to determine a winner, and I think we shouldn't either. The same number of stock should result in a sudden death.

In that case, you use lame laser tactics to get them to about 200% while you're at 0%, fight until you get the kill (as you will get the first kill unless you REALLY suck), then revert back to lame tactics with a 1 stock advantage. It's a bit harder to win but still gives you a ridiculous advantage.

 

[Red Exodus]

I wonder why in all explanations Fox is used as an example....

for Own Sake Pro's make the game look boring... where is all the fun when you can't even attack your opponet because he is so PRO in FInal Destination if you are so pro why can't you be Pro in ALL THE FReAKING STAGES?!!!!

Learn to read. Please. Host your own tournament, put up $1000 prize, no holes barred and enjoy having everyone john at the crap that happens.

Go ahead and try it. No one wants to lose because all there opponent can do is laser camp for 8 minutes.

 

[Takalth]

I wonder why in all explanations Fox is used as an example....

Also, while it's true that is the most often used example for these cheap tactics, it's usually just because he's the best at it. Replace Fox with Sheik or Pika, and you can still do many of the same tactics against a portion of your opponents.

As always, though, it's not the people who go to tourneys and actually understand them that think stage banning is stupid. It's always people who have never been to a tourney and have never played at that skill level that blast us for banning stages.
Start going to tournaments for a while. When you can make it to your fourth set in a double-elimination round, you will have some authority to speak on whether the rules are good.

 

[Xtremee]

oh wow...

you didn't get my point either

but you're right anyways i'm not planing to enter a tournament any soon I play for enjoyment and that's all

 

[RDK]

Hey guys, this page got featured on Encyclopedia Dramatica! We're internet superstars now!

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/

Search for "Tourney***,"

Not trying to sensor bypass, just pointing out how to locate the article, which I think is hysterical, btw.

Another fine example of 4chan's intelligence.

 

[volbound1700]

The problem with banning stages due to random events is that that is a part of sports. You can't help fumbles or random mistakes in football, that is just part of the game.

To ban Ice Climber's stage or the F-Zero Blue Car stage because unforeseen events may come is stupid.

Also if you really want to solve the problem, then instead of banning the stage, ban the tactic. If they use that tactic, count it as a forfeit and default win for the other person. That would stop fox laser pretty fast.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

The problem with banning stages due to random events is that that is a part of sports. You can't help fumbles or random mistakes in football, that is just part of the game.

To ban Ice Climber's stage or the F-Zero Blue Car stage because unforeseen events may come is stupid.

Also if you really want to solve the problem, then instead of banning the stage, ban the tactic. If they use that tactic, count it as a forfeit and default win for the other person. That would stop fox laser pretty fast.

You can help random mistakes, practice more, hence the mistake part. When there is something that happens that you couldn't help, losing 5000 dollars because of that is stupid.

The second part has already been discussed; learn to read.

 

[volbound1700]

I don't play by official tournament rules. In fact to be totally fair here are the settings

Random Characters - everyone picks this, so you never know who you are going to be

Random Stage - Do not know where you will play

Items - yes we play with items

I got these rules because I use to play online Age of Empires: RoR and AOE 2 and that was the settings in those games to keep it fair and random. If you ended up with a bad civ, then that was just the luck of the draw. However, AOE usually came down to the better player winning, even if they got stuck with a bad civ. This is usually the case I have experienced in my smash events. Of course I have played with newbs before and I let them pick the stage, their character, and sometimes even my character. You learn to play with all 25 characters doing my version.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I don't play by official tournament rules. In fact to be totally fair here are the settings

Random Characters - everyone picks this, so you never know who you are going to be

Random Stage - Do not know where you will play

Items - yes we play with items

I got these rules because I use to play online Age of Empires: RoR and AOE 2 and that was the settings in those games to keep it fair and random. If you ended up with a bad civ, then that was just the luck of the draw. However, AOE usually came down to the better player winning, even if they got stuck with a bad civ. This is usually the case I have experienced in my smash events. Of course I have played with newbs before and I let them pick the stage, their character, and sometimes even my character. You learn to play with all 25 characters doing my version.

Actually, by playing with newbs you typically learn to play with 0 characters.
Ditto with just playing your own group of friends.

 

[volbound1700]

Actually, by playing with newbs you typically learn to play with 0 characters.
Ditto with just playing your own group of friends.

They are only newbs compared to tourny people I guess. Casual players, like amateur golfers or tennis players. Good in their amateur league but not good at tournament.

However, sounds like the experts and pros would not be good if you actually played brawl in other ways. They are only good at player their certain way with their certain characters.

Sounds like if I played them in a banned staged and we both had to play Mewtwo for example, I might have a shot. At least in my mode, you have to be well rounded. That was logic behind Age of Empire tournaments online. True experts could play with any civ on any game mode (outside Deathmatch which was a very different gmae although you had DM tournaments seperate from Regular Mode and DM had their own experts). Now yes, sometimes experts would get a civ like Assyria for example or Choson but if you were good enough you could overcome them and beat them, if not then better luck next year, that was how the ball bounced. Same way with my mode in melee (btw we played stock matches not timed so fox run strategy would not have worked), sometimes the ball just don't bounce your way. Sometimes I would end up with Pichu or Bowser against a player with Fox or Pikachu (for some reason a lot of people like to play him as a main that I was up against, I think it was from 64 smash, I would always kill people with Pikachu as Fox, Marth, or Link).