Stage Information Database and Q&A

[Life]

But mmkay ain't a porblem in Jpaan

 

[Yikarur]

I only now just realized that in a Japanese ruleset, we would be seeing Falco, ICs, Olimar, and Diddy Kong (some of our most popular characters) playing on FD a lot more often.

I feel kinda dumb for putting this together now, but I feel even worse about the thought of how ****ty Brawl must be to watch under a Japanese ruleset.

you overrate FDs influence on a lot of MUs.
Diddys best Stage isn't even FD imo
Falcos best Stage never was FD
and even ICs don't like to play on FD because they are more effective with platforms

 

[Akaku94]

Then what are their best stages? As any of those, under what circumstances would you not want to go to FD?

 

[WindMajor]

I'm talking about how horrible it is to watch a campy Falco double laser across the map all dayyyyy. Not talking about their best stages.

 

[Tesh]

you overrate FDs influence on a lot of MUs.
Diddys best Stage isn't even FD imo
Falcos best Stage never was FD
and even ICs don't like to play on FD because they are more effective with platforms

ICs are more effective with platforms? Sounds like a load of bull to me.

 

[ぱみゅ]

ICs are more effective with platforms? Sounds like a load of bull to me.

As long as ICs are not forced to move, I'm pretty sure they can do well.

 

[WindMajor]

ICs are more effective with platforms? Sounds like a load of bull to me.

It mainly has to do with how platforms can give them grab setups, and platforms help with their UAir game, or something like that.

I'm not an ICs main, but that's what I've been hearing from a lot of them.

 

[Life]

Probably depends on the platform, too. I imagine SV's platform is pretty ridiculous for them, between what Roller said earlier and the potential for platform cancel to grab, plus no other platforms to run away to.

 

[holyv]

Hey guys, sorry for missing the topic, but at somepart of the end of 2011, me and some guys were discussing the legalization of PORT DOWN AERO DIVE

Well, they said after APEX we would do something about it, legalize it or not.

So well, here i am, should i post a topic about it or not? because it already exists, but it has been left behind.

 

[Life]

PTAD is basically Brinstar, except less polar. Barely-random, highly-avoidable hazard (albeit a much more powerful one; the cars always go by a given point on the track at a given point on the timer, but you don't--making the cars a mix of the acid and Japes' Klap Traps), a hazard that potentially aids your recovery (on Brinstar, it's the acid again; on PTAD, it's the floor), sharking but not planking on the transition platform, but it lacks the very close blast zones, attackable terrain, and focus on aerial domination (although it could turn out to have the latter, we haven't tried so we don't know) that Brinstar has.

Basically, it's a little each of Delfino, Brinstar, and Japes rolled into one.

Verdict: a fine stage that deserves testing

Spoiler

(read: nobody's willing to try it because it's "gh3y")

. After Japes and Norfair, it's the third stage I'd add to Unity.

 

[ぱみゅ]

What about Pict-*shot*

 

[Tesh]

How are platform setups into grabs better than just grabs? On FD you either retreat to the ledge or risk getting grabbed if you are in the air and lack the speed to completely avoid them.

Nair reset to grab doesn't work at all percents and if its what I think it is, it doesn't work at floaty characters either.

 

[ぱみゅ]

nvm, I just went fullderp

 

[WindMajor]

After Japes and Norfair, it's the third stage I'd add to Unity.

I honestly think that Pirate Ship can and should go before either of those two. I don't see that stage being polar at all.

What about Pict-*shot*

<3

How are platform setups into grabs better than just grabs? On FD you either retreat to the ledge or risk getting grabbed if you are in the air and lack the speed to completely avoid them.

Nair reset to grab doesn't work at all percents and if its what I think it is, it doesn't work at floaty characters either.

I'm trying to find the video where 9B uses the platforms to lead into grabs, but I can't find it yet. It has to do with this though, and apparently it's legit.

 

[Life]

I honestly think that Pirate Ship can and should go before either of those two. I don't see that stage being polar at all.

Ship is very good in those terms, but it has a lot of camping potential and if that turned out to be too much for people, then the inexorable slide of adding more stages we'd be trying to accomplish would grind to a halt when it got rebanned. Risk/reward on a meta scale, yes?

 

[WindMajor]

People can camp on Pirate Ship?

Edit: That wording.....

You guys know what I mean.

 

[Life]

More specifically, they can camp off Pirate Ship. Water/rudder camping and all that.

I'm not saying it makes the stage banworthy, but if the first stage we legalize turns out to have a problem, we'll never be taken seriously again. So I want to get in at least a few others before going to Ship.

 

[Akaku94]

Ship has much more possibly wrong with it than Japes or PTAD, for example. I'm not opposed to getting around to it eventually...

 

[WindMajor]

Rudder camping is a non-issue. Water camping would be the only thing, but does anybody know what that actually is, or is it something like "but you can camp on the water!!" and everybody is afraid of it or something?

@Akaku I personally see Brinstar as being worse than Pirate Ship.

 

[Akaku94]

Here's a 19-stage list with borderline stags I'd like to see:

Battlefield
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Norfair
PictoChat
Pokémon Stadium 2
Port Town Aero Dive
Smashville
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Brinstar
Green Greens
Jungle Japes
Pokémon Stadium
Rainbow Cruise
Onett/Distant Planet

Bolded should be considered imo

 

[Akaku94]

Rudder camping is a non-issue. Water camping would be the only thing, but does anybody know what that actually is, or is it something like "but you can camp on the water!!" and everybody is afraid of it or something?

@Akaku I personally see Brinstar as being worse than Pirate Ship.

I'll be the first to admit I hate pirate ship, at least as much as a lot of people hate RC and Brinstar, so I may be a little biased here. I'm hoping it comes up soon in the weekly stage discussion so we can devote more time to it, but atm we should focus on stages that have a better chance of being legalized. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for legalizing as much as we can, but let's keep our expectations realistic. Brinstar may well be worse than Ship, but in its current state, the community would just use that to ban Brinstar, and banning more stages is the last thing we need. I'm trying to focus on Japes atm (even Jebus supports it!) because I think it has the best chance to succeed. Trying to play our cards right, that's all.

I nominate Pirate Ship for next week's discussion!

 

[Ghostbone]

Twinkie's right rudder camping is a non issue.
Firstly most characters can actually hit you/go down there themselves and push you into the ship.
Secondly those that can't, can still make you take up to 150% (well within kill range unless you're like...Samus, who can hit the rudder camper anyway iirc), then wait for the rock/hurricane thing/bombs/rough water to force you out, and by moving around they can change the camera angle which makes rudder camping take even more precision that it already does. (and if they mess up...that's a stock)

 

[WindMajor]

The whole issue with hazards is just silly too. The biggest offender would be the bombs, but they're incredibly easy to avoid. You get a nice signal for them first through the King of Red Lions, but aside from that, you can hear the cannons go BOOM like a full 2 or 3 seconds before they even land. That's more than enough time to avoid them (jump -> air dodge). After the first one, you can just follow the trajectories from there.

 

[Tesh]

I honestly think that Pirate Ship can and should go before either of those two. I don't see that stage being polar at all.



<3



I'm trying to find the video where 9B uses the platforms to lead into grabs, but I can't find it yet. It has to do with this though, and apparently it's legit.

I know all about that, but I don't get how people think thats better than your opponent having no safe place to land anyway. If I nair your shield into a grab setup, how is that better than if I grab your shield? That doesn't even work on all characters.

 

[holyv]

Is there a chance of norfair getting unbanned?

 

[Akaku94]

Not as long as people keep whining about Brinstar's lava...

 

[sunshade]

So, it's been a strange realization for me lately but, I no longer think super smash brothers is a competitively viable fighting game if played in it's truest form possible (assuming items, stocks, time, and other features that can be toggled within the game's internal options, are toggled appropriately).

Which then leads me to the belief that the game is fun enough to be worth saving but we are entirely justified and subsequently required to make the game as competitive and fun as we can. Things such as what stages are legal, if anti chaingrab rules are in use and, if ledge grab limits, among other things, will be entirely catered to making the game what we want it to be instead of allow it to be what it is.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nah.

Even if the game is uncompetitive at its roots, that doesn't mean we should just mess with the rules however we want to. We should still create logical ban criteria because, well, its the logical thing to do.

Why would you intentionally make an illogical decision like enforcing a global LGL (arbitrarily buffing certain characters just because we want to) when you could make a logical one instead (not enforcing a LGL because it isn't necessary and introduces a host of double standards)?

 

[Ghostbone]

Imo we should just do whatever the majority wants lol.

 

[Akaku94]

^MK legal, every stage except FD, BF, SV banned, global lgl -_-

 

[-LzR-]

I hate Super Smashville bros.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I love Smashville, FD is gay as though.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I've been wondering if Pictochat is just a misunderstood stage.
What if, instead of fighting and stuff randomly popping here and there, neither player attacks at all (unless they are sure to hit) until a transformation has already appeared.

So, I'd like to know if Pictochat game can actually be optimized without hard predictions...
Or why I have not been affected by Pictochat at all no matter how much I play on it...

 

[-LzR-]

Pictochat, unlike any other stage, has had great effects on the outcome of our matches based on pure blind luck. An opponent recovering and the line appears, boom dead.
Fthrow opponent, suddenly flower or cart appears, boom dead.
Airdodge, suddenly missiles, suddenly 50%.
Dtilt opponent, suddenly wall, free 50%.
That is not fair, no matter how you look at it. Worse players have taken matches against Finlands top players on Pictochat and that means something.

 

[BSP]

Inb4 "you should have been in the safe zone"

Stuff you said is the same reason I ban Pictochat

 

[-LzR-]

I wish that one match where Kirby got a 200% jablock on Picto was recorded.
It was the one with a lot of boxes, the "3Dish" one.
As Kirby jabbed, the smallest square, barely fitting 2 small characters spawned on them and he couldn't escape the jab and boom 200% and he won.
That was damn hilarious. I still can't believe he wasn't salty over that.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Inb4 "you should have been in the safe zone"

Stuff you said is the same reason I ban Pictochat

Pretty much that.

Pictochat, unlike any other stage, has had great effects on the outcome of our matches based on pure blind luck.

And that's why I am wondering if there is a way to play it better.

An opponent recovering and the line appears, boom dead.

You would be surprised how seldom this actually occurs.
You need to be sent flying while the stage is blank, and even then, you can aim for the ground instead of the ledge. Yes, you might be punished for this, but that can happen in Orpheon as well.

Fthrow opponent, suddenly flower or cart appears, boom dead.
Airdodge, suddenly missiles, suddenly 50%.

Safety Zone thingy

Dtilt opponent, suddenly wall, free 50%.

This part is tricky (and part of my other post).
There are few moves good for trapping opponents in walls, most of them are really unsafe to just throw. So, you might get a random reward from it, but what if you do not? You'll get punished, and nobody would care.

That is not fair, no matter how you look at it. Worse players have taken matches against Finlands top players on Pictochat and that means something.

I wonder if those "Worse players" just knew the stage better.. Probably they do, probably they do not, however, is not part of this argument.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

This argument can be summarized very easily.

Randomness = too many variables to comprehend = too hard

People who think Picto should be banned say that its too hard to play on
People who think Picto should be legal say that its not too hard to play on

Nothing more needs to be said. The argument can only be proven one way or another via extensive play on the stage, which frankly won't happen anywhere that matters.

 

[-LzR-]

Yeah, every Finnish top player has practiced Pictochat a lot and know the stage so well only random crappy luck makes a difference.

 

[BSP]

Picto isn't even hard to play on, but I think the transformations leave too much up to chance.