DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,302
When I first started playing, the first question I ever asked EAlert to test for me was something along the lines of "I feel like the boost pivot grab is better than a pivot grab to punish nado because you slide further in spacing. Is this true or am I crazy?" AFter waiting patiently for a couple weeks, he finally gave me the answer saying "Pivot grab slides further if done correctly so it spaces better." And from that point it was the end of the discussion.
Recently, I began a change in my style of play that I've dubbed "2011 Climbers". I'm essentially attempting to compile the metagame advancements that EA and I have come up with along with a contributions from a few other notables and put them into one package. As I began doing it, one of my previously stronger matchups, the Metaknight matchup, began to destroy me with one move: Mach Tornado.
So I'm sitting here wondering if I should go and rethink my life or my 2011 Climbers. Rather than reverse course on this particular matchup, I decided to try to understand better why I wasn't punishing nado correctly. I began to notice two scenarios would present itself:
1. The MK would use Nado from far away- This gave me time to punish. And when I punish things, I punish it in the only way I know how- to pivot grab it. Either that, or I had time to shield and chase and we all know how the story goes from there.
2. The MK would use Nado from super close- This didn't give me time to punish. I would either get hit by nado because I was doing something stupid in the matchup or if I read the nado correctly, I would accidentally roll into the nado and get punished anyway despite my hard read.
So I went to examine more short comings in scenario 2 and why they occurred. Me being me, I decided to look at the frame data:
If you know what you're looking at, it means revealed why I was accidentally rolling when I grabbed. By pressing the grab button and back, I was essentially roll canceling the dash because the grab is a hotkey for shield + attack. The shield part activates the roll cancel when dashing.
However, I remember that by hitting cstick down, you can do straight into a dash attack out of initial dash. Which made me logically conclude that if you can dash attack directly out of initial dash, boost pivot grabbing will make you circumvent the roll cancel frames of the initial dash. Which means that you could boost pivot about 6 frames faster than you could execute a normal pivot grab without fearing a roll cancel.
So I went to tell EA, "HA, I win. You're wrong. Lux +1, EA -1."
And then he said, "FUUUUUU. Way ahead of you bro"
Where he agreed with my assessments and he had already worked out the fastest way to pivot grab out of a stand still.
Essentially the inputs are to dash in a direction for a frame. The cstick the reverse direction. Then hit grab. All while holding the dash.
I repeat,
THEFASTEST EASIEST WAY TO PIVOT GRAB OUT OF A STANDSTILL IS TO USE A BOOST PIVOT GRAB WITH THE FOLLOWING INPUTS:
DI Input to Dash (do not let go)> Cstick in Reverse Direction > Grab Button
This is superior to what I thought was the fastest way to boost pivot using cstick down and all kinds of control stick flicks. If done on consecutive frames, it's a stutter step fsmash that's canceled into a boost pivot grab.
If done correctly, this will actually come out faster than an fsmash by 1 frame. And the reward is higher. But the bigger gain is, the faster we can do things, the longer we can reasonably wait after realizing we're getting nado'd so we are less likely to get baited into doing things.
You can also incorporate it into CGs. For example. If you have a hard time CGing Jigglypuff, this gets rid of roll canceling during the CG. I'll look into if it's useful for any of the other characters.
I hope this helps people. In my CPU practice, it's already been helping me. Please don't respond, "This was already known." I'm sure it's been discovered already. Sometimes we just need a reminder of what's good and right in this world.
Recently, I began a change in my style of play that I've dubbed "2011 Climbers". I'm essentially attempting to compile the metagame advancements that EA and I have come up with along with a contributions from a few other notables and put them into one package. As I began doing it, one of my previously stronger matchups, the Metaknight matchup, began to destroy me with one move: Mach Tornado.
So I'm sitting here wondering if I should go and rethink my life or my 2011 Climbers. Rather than reverse course on this particular matchup, I decided to try to understand better why I wasn't punishing nado correctly. I began to notice two scenarios would present itself:
1. The MK would use Nado from far away- This gave me time to punish. And when I punish things, I punish it in the only way I know how- to pivot grab it. Either that, or I had time to shield and chase and we all know how the story goes from there.
2. The MK would use Nado from super close- This didn't give me time to punish. I would either get hit by nado because I was doing something stupid in the matchup or if I read the nado correctly, I would accidentally roll into the nado and get punished anyway despite my hard read.
So I went to examine more short comings in scenario 2 and why they occurred. Me being me, I decided to look at the frame data:
Code:
Initial Dash
Total - 21
F-Roll Cancel: 1-6
Dashdance: 2-7
Reverse Initial Dash
[Must hold back for 2 frames or will not dash]
Total - 22
B-Roll Cancel - 1-2
F-Roll Cancel - 3-7
Dashdance: 3-8However, I remember that by hitting cstick down, you can do straight into a dash attack out of initial dash. Which made me logically conclude that if you can dash attack directly out of initial dash, boost pivot grabbing will make you circumvent the roll cancel frames of the initial dash. Which means that you could boost pivot about 6 frames faster than you could execute a normal pivot grab without fearing a roll cancel.
So I went to tell EA, "HA, I win. You're wrong. Lux +1, EA -1."
And then he said, "FUUUUUU. Way ahead of you bro"
Where he agreed with my assessments and he had already worked out the fastest way to pivot grab out of a stand still.
Essentially the inputs are to dash in a direction for a frame. The cstick the reverse direction. Then hit grab. All while holding the dash.
I repeat,
THE
DI Input to Dash (do not let go)> Cstick in Reverse Direction > Grab Button
This is superior to what I thought was the fastest way to boost pivot using cstick down and all kinds of control stick flicks. If done on consecutive frames, it's a stutter step fsmash that's canceled into a boost pivot grab.
If done correctly, this will actually come out faster than an fsmash by 1 frame. And the reward is higher. But the bigger gain is, the faster we can do things, the longer we can reasonably wait after realizing we're getting nado'd so we are less likely to get baited into doing things.
You can also incorporate it into CGs. For example. If you have a hard time CGing Jigglypuff, this gets rid of roll canceling during the CG. I'll look into if it's useful for any of the other characters.
I hope this helps people. In my CPU practice, it's already been helping me. Please don't respond, "This was already known." I'm sure it's been discovered already. Sometimes we just need a reminder of what's good and right in this world.
