Suggested Changes to Meta Knight

[victinivcreate1]

No, this is not a "oh EM-K IS BRUKEN" thread.

However, it is common knowledge among PM players that Meta Knight is likely one of the top 5 characters in the game (along with Fox, Mewtwo, Pit, and Sonic, all of these are arguable but all of these are winning/getting top 5 at tournaments so...). His incredible speed, recovery, and combo game (I mean he can perform incredible combos without L-Cancelling, and when he does L-Cancel, well we all know Plup), not to mention his great flexibility and versatility as a character. When I was a noob PM player, I thought Meta Knight would lose to crouch cancelling because many of his moves are weak to moderate horizontal knockback moves. As I got more experienced, and actually played a couple MKs in Wi-Fi (and subsequently started using him as a secondary lol), I learned I was terribly wrong. Once he starts respecting that option, he could come in with a dash grab (and the up/forward throw follow up) or an up smash or a dash cc'd up tilt, or a Shuttle Loop. And he'll start juggling me for days. The character doesn't lose to anyone, and he doesn't even lose to game mechanics as I once thought. However, he is still beatable. I have compiled a list of both buffs and nerfs to make this character more manageable for the rest of the cast.

Nerfs
Transcendent priority is gone on all but a few moves: MK's sword alone makes this move practically trandscendent vs non swordsmen characters.

Grounded Shuttle Loop has more start up lag.

Faster falling speed: This allows characters to more easily combo him and nerfs his recovery a bit. Low angle moves like Sheik's fair will be more dangerous to him now.

During his Shuttle Loop, when his eyes are facing the sky, there should be no weak sourspot hitbox for the rest of the duration of the move.

Buffs
Faster falling speed: He can perform faster SHFFLs this way.

Return of Halberding (Shuttle Loop Cancels): In Project M, when Mk tries to cancel his Shuttle Loop on a platform, he'll enter a sliding motion, where he can't act for a certain amount of time. In Brawl however, he could do this and this with his Shuttle Loop. He could essentially cancel the glide (when it was nearly touching the ground) with any aerial or special move. I'd like this feature to return to PM. It helps him out when he's being edgeguarded, especially considering he can't just easily sweetspot the edge with his Shuttle Loop. This can still be beaten as well, since if these buffs actually do go through with the PMBR, they could remove the hitboxes of a sourspot Shuttle Loop.

Feel free to critique. I'll edit along the way. Make suggestions as well!

 

[Lawn Chair]

Even though this thread imo is pretty well thought out, I really hate buff and nerf threads just because I want to see where the character's meta will go. If they change Metaknight in the next version and it is found out that the change was not needed later on in PM's meta they won't fix it they will keep him the same, I just want to ride it out right now. Also I don't think Metaknight is top 5

 

[victinivcreate1]

Even though this thread imo is pretty well thought out, I really hate buff and nerf threads just because I want to see where the character's meta will go. If they change Metaknight in the next version and it is found out that the change was not needed later on in PM's meta they won't fix it they will keep him the same, I just want to ride it out right now. Also I don't think Metaknight is top 5

If anything, the nerf that'll change MK's meta the most is his increased falling speed.

I think he's top 5, but I can see why you think not

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Mk isn't top 5 :/
Play offline. Online is ok for practice but..play offline. CC an projectiles really hammer him, not sure what you're doing. Also, grounded up B isn't that amazing you know? It doesn't have the intangible start up and the knock back isn't like brawl. I'm surprised you didn't mention anything about down b. Better find some real mk players

 

[victinivcreate1]

Mk isn't top 5 :/
Play offline. Online is ok for practice but..play offline. CC an projectiles really hammer him, not sure what you're doing. Also, grounded up B isn't that amazing you know? It doesn't have the intangible start up and the knock back isn't like brawl. I'm surprised you didn't mention anything about down b. Better find some real mk players

Eh. Down B is only good if you cancel it with the attack. Otherwise, its not too noteworthy in my book. Seeing as I main Mewtwo, I know the real woop. Come back when your Woop is as good as mine lolz.

MK's mobility gets him around projectiles lol from what I've seen. And does Plup not dominate the Southern PM metagame? I hear he's one of the best.

Grounded Shuttle Loop is still an option so thats why I listed it.

Lol real MKs. K9, Squeak and Plup live far away from me though

 

[Lawn Chair]

lol, if shuttle loop is an option why take it away and make it worse? Transcendent hitboxs have pros and cons. Being bad vs Projectiles is bad but having Transcendent hitboxes make it worse

 

[victinivcreate1]

lol, if shuttle loop is an option why take it away and make it worse? Transcendent hitboxs have pros and cons. Being bad vs Projectiles is bad but having Transcendent hitboxes make it worse

Are projectiles wrecking MK? Like really? He's so fast. He has 4 midair jumps. A good roll/spot dodge. He's tiny and hard to hit. And the MK boards tell me they struggle vs. projectiles? Sounds like all of you need to work on evasion and power shielding. Power shielding in general helps out with many MUs where projectile camping/abuse is a big thing.

Transcendent priority=MK always wins the close range trades. When you factor his tiny size and great speed, this is a worthwhile trade for being unable to clang with projectiles

"if shuttle loop is an option why take it away and make it worse? "
Because if the PMBR were to implement Shuttle Loop Cancels, this would be HUGE for MK. He wouldn't be so easily ledgetrapped. He could have more fluid, more flashy movement. And it could aid in combos. In Brawl, on Battlefield you could up tilt at moderate percents then ASL, cancel it on the top platform with either another ASL (if you hit with the strong part of Shuttle Loop, you can follow them with a glide towards the ledge, and beging edgeguarding), or any aerial (if you hit the weak part of ASL). Now I think the weak hit being able to combo, along with SL cancels would be a bit too strong, so I thought of a way to nerf it, to keep it somewhat balanced while still being a buff for MK.

 

[Lawn Chair]

Do you know how much he sucks when he is above someone? Likeeee lol. What do you mean he wins trades? Winning trades is all dependent on percent each player has and how gets better positioning they have afterwards. I don't think I really need power shield training since I've main Marth for 6+ years in Melee and due to the fact that I'm one of the best Metaknights on the East Coast and maybe the world. IMO he doesn't need any changes. I think he is perfectly fine. But they are going to nerf him anyway.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Do you know how much he sucks when he is above someone? Likeeee lol. What do you mean he wins trades? Winning trades is all dependent on percent each player has and how gets better positioning they have afterwards. I don't think I really need power shield training since I've main Marth for 6+ years in Melee and due to the fact that I'm one of the best Metaknights on the East Coast and maybe the world. IMO he doesn't need any changes. I think he is perfectly fine. But they are going to nerf him anyway.

What I mean by trade is say MK and Fox ftilt at the same time. MK's just cuts right through Fox's ftilt. Or Marth and MK dtilt each other. MK's just cuts through again.

And oh my bad. Had no idea you were of rank. *no sarcasm or rudeness intended*

I think he's fine too, but SL cancels were fun to me back when I played Brawl MK.

 

[BPx]

i think mk needs his old dair back too

 

[Lawn Chair]

i think mk needs his old dair back too

Metaknight would actually be broken.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Metaknight would actually be broken.

He would guaranteed be broken if he had Brawl dair. Semi spike angle, mega speed, good reach, decent KO power, incredible edgeguard move, etc. Dair would make MUs like space animals and Falcon be 90:10 MK's favor once they're offstage. Dair would be a frame 4 shine with a huge lower hitbox.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I think MK is top 5 or close but in a sense of "solid", not ridiculous. His matchup chart is also pretty even and it is not one imbalanced move that kills the opponents options, but just a solid moveset backed up by his great mobility.
He might be actually not top 5 because very few matchups are free, but I think a character without free matchups that has a answer to everything is in some kind better than a character who has free and lost matchups.
I never get the impression that MK is unfair and never need to complain about his weaknesses, I think MK is great design and that is also the reason why he went from secondary in Brawl to main (together with Marth) in PM for me.

 

[9bit]

I feel like MK is in the top 5 of best designed characters, if nothing else.

 

[Lawn Chair]

I feel like MK is in the top 5 of best designed characters, if nothing else.

I really enjoy his design

 

[GuruKid]

No offense but I think you need a lot more offline tournament experience to more accurately assess MK's strengths, weakness, and overall viability amongst the roster. I see you're in NYC but I don't recognize your tag; you're in a pretty active area that has seen more and more regular tournaments over the last few months.

I've always been of the mindset that it's still too early to even gauge where characters lie in terms of viability but I love the character's design. My only ideal changes (and this doesn't reflect PMBR thoughts, only my own as a MK main) would be to give him proper clanking on all his moves to help against heavy zoning while removing the angled Dair to lessen his ability to air camp and escape poor positioning.

 

[Bloodcross]

Down B is definitely good.

Can combo off any throw, nair, fair, tipper dtilt, ftilt, uair, etc and can kill pretty early and if not send them offstage far enough for you to recover the lag after Down B and go for an edgeguard anyway.

Like others have mentioned, GSL isn't that great here with no invincibility frames (from frame 5-8 iirc), plus, on block, it's a very punishable move in Brawl and even more so in PM considering 1. Glide Attack on landing/block is super punishable with tons more lag than in Brawl, so one can just fall back and throw an attack and 2. All your jumps are gone if you get hit out of Up B.

As for what pm mk needs from brawl, he needs nothing because mk is fine the way he is in pm. He had more shuttle loop cancels in the previous PM update but some of those got taken away completely. so I don't see pm developers bringing any cancels back again at all lol

 

[Downdraft]

I think MK is top 5 or close but in a sense of "solid", not ridiculous. His matchup chart is also pretty even and it is not one imbalanced move that kills the opponents options, but just a solid moveset backed up by his great mobility.
He might be actually not top 5 because very few matchups are free, but I think a character without free matchups that has a answer to everything is in some kind better than a character who has free and lost matchups.
I never get the impression that MK is unfair and never need to complain about his weaknesses, I think MK is great design and that is also the reason why he went from secondary in Brawl to main (together with Marth) in PM for me.

I haven't played him offline that much yet, but I really don't understand him.
He doesn't have a projectile, meteor, or spike. Additionally, he lacks kill power. With that said, I feel that I must put a lot more work into getting the kill than other characters. Since he doesn't have an option to kill off the bottom of the screen, no apparent reliable option to kill early, and no attack with huge vertical knockback, why do some consider him Top 5?

Captain Falcon and Sonic have great speed and combo ability. They also have good kill power, a meteor or spike, and an easier time killing off the top. I'll admit that I may be playing MK wrong since I don't really understand how to play him; however, it seems a little unfair that I've usually got to get the opponent to 120+ % before I can kill them, whereas other characters have options to kill an opponent once the opponent is in the 70-80 range.

This may not be the best place to ask this, but what's MK's game(s)? He lacks options that many other characters have. What are his strengths? Speed and recovery don't seem huge strengths when I consider what he doesn't have; several characters have speed or great recovery.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I haven't played him offline that much yet, but I really don't understand him.
He doesn't have a projectile, meteor, or spike. Additionally, he lacks kill power. With that said, I feel that I must put a lot more work into getting the kill than other characters. Since he doesn't have an option to kill off the bottom of the screen, no apparent reliable option to kill early, and no attack with huge vertical knockback, why do some consider him Top 5?

Captain Falcon and Sonic have great speed and combo ability. They also have good kill power, a meteor or spike, and an easier time killing off the top. I'll admit that I may be playing MK wrong since I don't really understand how to play him; however, it seems a little unfair that I've usually got to get the opponent to 120+ % before I can kill them, whereas other characters have options to kill an opponent once the opponent is in the 70-80 range.

This may not be the best place to ask this, but what's MK's game(s)? He lacks options that many other characters have. What are his strengths? Speed and recovery don't seem huge strengths when I consider what he doesn't have; several characters have speed or great recovery.

MK´s combo game. I would compare it to Pits or Marios or Mewtwos.

Dair can lead into 30% combos on average, but I´ve gotten 40-50% combos off of it, and I know I´m not the only one who has. MK´s ASL can KO Zelda at like 80 if near the blast zone (which should not be an issue because MK has excellent juggling ability).

His main KO moves are bair, nair, fsmash, dsmash, DIMESIONAL CAPE SLASH (OMG ITS RIDICULOUZ), Shuttle Loop and Ive had success with his laggy glide attack. MK can KO off the sides easily. And for great horizontal survivalists, Dimensional Cape slash Kos Mario on Smashville under 75. IDK what it KOs with good DI and SDI, but it definitely KOs under 100 easily. And Mk´s Aerial Shuttle Loop is quite powerful in its own right.

And shffl nair approach is great.

Fair WoP

Can deal with spacies effectively with usmash. Easy 40-50 percent with usmash usmash usmash uair string or shuttle loop into glide attack. You can sdi the usmash, but then you can troll with up tilt to catch them offguard

Tech chase game is MEAN. Dthrow is incredible

MK is just incredible. Thats why I think he´s top 5 in the cast.

 

[Downdraft]

^ Wasn't really aware his moves were that good; I just haven't been seeing it. I'll try again.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I would love a dair built for gimps or maybe tech chases. That's the only nit pick I have.

 

[Skimchee]

MK is great. I think that down-b might be a little overpowered in some respects, even when I use it myself. Still, he's a fun character and he will probably stay very similar to his current iteration in the next version.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

MK is great. I think that down-b might be a little overpowered in some respects, even when I use it myself. Still, he's a fun character and he will probably stay very similar to his current iteration in the next version.

That's not the feeling of, "overpowered" you're feeling. It's the the feeling of being a total bad ass.

EDIT: When I hit a down B, I feel sick as ****. Even if they don't die. Nerf down B hype factor.

 

[Skimchee]

That's now the feeling of, "overpowered" you're feeling. It's the the feeling of being a total bad ***.

EDIT: When I hit a down B, I feel sick as ****. Even if they don't die. Nerf down B hype factor.

I'm just saying if I do a d-throw facing offstage and follow with a grounded down-b quickslash while flicking the c-stick forward for an early offstage kill below 30% on Wario Ware while being allowed to grab the ledge as long as I hold the control stick back towards the stage, it might need a tweak or two

The move just has so much flexibility and potency, tweaking the cape so it's slightly worse than its current state shouldn't hurt MK's metagame too much. Don't get me wrong, I use the move a lot in my gameplay, but I just have the feeling like it shouldn't be that easy or something....idk how to phrase that any better and it's not quite right, but that's as close as I can get for now anyway.

*Nobody does instant down-b OOS either which is a great option to complement nair OOS and up-b OOS. Covers that reverse option along with a large gap in front of MK depending on the c-stick/joystick input. Oh and caping the ledge for ledgehogging or sweetspotted recovery are also underused imo.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Cape is bad on shield though. DI down+away, land, shield
OK doesn't work always but 50 % of successful capes could have been avoided

 

[victinivcreate1]

Cape is bad on shield though. DI down+away, land, shield
OK doesn't work always but 50 % of successful capes could have been avoided

Most Cape Slashes are kinda easy to avoid, unless you´re put in really bad situations where you have like 3 options to escape and they try to use DCS to cover all options with that massive range.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I'm just saying if I do a d-throw facing offstage and follow with a grounded down-b quickslash while flicking the c-stick forward for an early offstage kill below 30% on Wario Ware while being allowed to grab the ledge as long as I hold the control stick back towards the stage, it might need a tweak or two

That person is doing bad Di.

 

[Skimchee]

That person is doing bad Di.

lmao well if he DI'd up and in, it would set up for a nair (admittedly a better option though). He DI'd away into the cape follow-up which was definitely the worst option for that specific situation. I'll try to post a video of what I'm referring to this weekend if my streamer friend gets back in town....hopefully he doesn't die or something

 

[Lawn Chair]

I guess no one told you that d cape is bad. D cape is bad thank you.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

lmao well if he DI'd up and in, it would set up for a nair

Heard of Di traps before?

 

[Skimchee]

I guess no one told you that d cape is bad. D cape is bad thank you.

I'll be sure to write that down when the next release comes out

Heard of Di traps before?

I don't think they should be that easy to pull off on most of the roster though. But hey, it's all opinion so if the character isn't the reason that I beat people then I guess I'll take that for what it's worth and stuff.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Di traps and tech chasing is what mk is about. All you have to do is get the right read.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Di traps and tech chasing is what mk is about. All you have to do is get the right read.

Thought juggles was the main thing about MK. I mean that up air is MEANNNN

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

It's funny. People want MK nerfs. I want buffs.

I'd like to see the following changes: (Not likely, but **** it I'mma put it out there.)

Remove MK's Jab and replace it with F-tilt combo.

Replace F-tilt with a faster weaker version of F-smash.

Make Utilt a weaker version of the strong hit of Up smash.

Make Up smash just the strong hit of the current u-smash.

Make fair's last hit have more forward knockback.

Make Bair have less startup frames or more reach. (One or the others, not both lol.)

Increase the damage of the hits of Dair. Some of the hits do 0, lol.

This character is one of my favorites, (Even tho I don't play him.) and I'd like to see these changes.

I think it'll make him a **** ton better. But that's just me.

I know none of this will ever happen, but I just wanna put these changes out there.

 

[Skimchee]

Remove MK's Jab and replace it with F-tilt combo.
.

Although I'm not necessarily for or against buffs, I honestly was hoping for the same thing just because it makes sense.

 

[Sartron]

Increase the damage of the hits of Dair. Some of the hits do 0, lol.

This should only happen if dair is staled. More damage would also just make it even more rewarding than it already is!

Also, most of your changes just seem to copy & paste an animation and set the damage lower. That would just make his moveset redundant as all his neutral moves would share the same purpose (and animation!)

MK is really good as he is right now.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

This should only happen if dair is staled. More damage would also just make it even more rewarding than it already is!

Also, most of your changes just seem to copy & paste an animation and set the damage lower. That would just make his moveset redundant as all his neutral moves would share the same purpose (and animation!)

MK is really good as he is right now.

I only suggest that so the changes are easy for the PMBR lol

MK's U-tilt, Usmash, and jab are garbage though. You gotta admit.

I want the character to be better, honestly. The back air thing is a valid point.

The move is too slow and too small to be used effectively as an EG.

So the move should have less startup or more reach.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I only suggest that so the changes are easy for the PMBR lol

MK's U-tilt, Usmash, and jab are garbage though. You gotta admit.

His utilt and usmash are fine. His jab has uses, they just need to be explored.

 

[Lawn Chair]

Lol wut, you can combo off of jab

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Well MK has no useless move, so thats kind of good