Taking Samus to the next level

[pwned-by-the-poob]

Sorry if this doesn't deserve its own thread...

Well, I've been recently trying to majorly improve my Samus and started thinking about things like - Why did the opponent easily get through my spam? Why did i just get killed? why did i just get punished? etc.-
Many Samus mains think that if they ever run into a good Oli, Marth, etc. then they have virtually no chance of winning, because of how awful Samus is in that matchup.
My point is that I don't believe Samus is at the peak of her metagame at all. In my opinion, there are several ways make to Samus better. The thing that mostly comes to my mind is predicting and just playing smart. Most people when they spam missiles and zair like crazy, eventually the opponent just gets through and punishes(this always happens to me against good players) however, with good enough reading, punishing, and decision making, you can make it seem nearly impossible to approach Samus.
In other words, being smart, camping, and spamming zairs. lol

Hopefully this gives some ideas to all of you so we can start thinking about how to make Samus better. Xyro has been on the right track with the idea of ledge camping

I'm gonna mention some things that I believe should be used more often.
1. Grabs. With good enough reading, Samus can use ONLY zairs and grabs while camping and it's very hard to adapt to and get passed it. The Xyro combo can be used over and over again and once they catch on and dodge, you can predict that dodge and just delay the grab. Once you get the grab, do an F- throw and restart the spam
Repeat infinite amount of times if necessary. XD I've gotten one of the best DK's in Canada(If not the best) from 0 to 60% with just zairs and grabs. The reason he got through it after that, is because i lost focus for a second. So that's why it's important to keep focus and constantly read.

2. Short hop Super Missile to another Super Missile, and repeat. This is obvious and every Samus player knows about this, but doing it repetitively with a zair here and there is extremely effective. You may seem vulerable after the grounded super missile, but you aren't as vulnerable as you think. In videos I've seen IsmaR use grounded super missiles in slick ways several times in a match and he didn't get punished for it.

3. Up B out of shield. This is used often. simply shielding and doing up b to punish an aerial approach almost always works. And it seems that people(including myself) don't do this enough.

Most of the things I mention in this post have to do with facing characters that are forced to approach. These are just ideas though, and hopefully can lead to more ideas that are effective against projectile spam as well.

That's all i have to say for now. I'm just trying to help people and improve Samus as much as I can. Hopefully it will get people to realize how much room there is for improvement in Samus' metagame.

Again, sorry if this doesn't deserve its own post and if it was boring and repetitive... just trying to help. lol

 

[Xyro77]

 

[ZeroL]

Samus is at her right place in the tier list, if else she'll be lower. I'm not going to explain why, KJ has already made a post about this in the past so I'll leave it to him. :3

 

[DtJ Composer]

SHE'S BETTER THAN FALCON AHHHHHHH



She's better than Falcon.

 

[IYM!]

Sorry if this doesn't deserve its own thread...
In my opinion, there are several ways make to Samus better. The thing that mostly comes to my mind is predicting and just playing smart. Most people when they spam missiles and zair like crazy, eventually the opponent just gets through and punishes(this always happens to me against good players) however, with good enough reading, punishing, and decision making, you can make it seem nearly impossible to approach Samus.
In other words, being smart, camping, and spamming zairs. lol


I'm gonna mention some things that I believe should be used more often.
1. Grabs. With good enough reading, Samus can use ONLY zairs and grabs while camping and it's very hard to adapt to and get passed it. The Xyro combo can be used over and over again and once they catch on and dodge, you can predict that dodge and just delay the grab. Once you get the grab, do an F- throw and restart the spam
Repeat infinite amount of times if necessary. XD I've gotten one of the best DK's in Canada(If not the best) from 0 to 60% with just zairs and grabs. The reason he got through it after that, is because i lost focus for a second. So that's why it's important to keep focus and constantly read.

2. Short hop Super Missile to another Super Missile, and repeat. This is obvious and every Samus player knows about this, but doing it repetitively with a zair here and there is extremely effective. You may seem vulerable after the grounded super missile, but you aren't as vulnerable as you think. In videos I've seen IsmaR use grounded super missiles in slick ways several times in a match and he didn't get punished for it.

3. Up B out of shield. This is used often. simply shielding and doing up b to punish an aerial approach almost always works. And it seems that people(including myself) don't do this enough.

totaly agree with you Poob, all yor wall of text are right, big part of Samus players only shot
H missiles like no tomorrow, and do Zair. they are wrong, Samus have potential, maybe dont the nesesary to be mid tier, but she still have good things.

the Zair> grab combo is effective the most part of the time, just you need to be smart, also pivot grab is good, this is a surprise move, and efective.

About Super missiles, well, Xyro was right, Homing M are faster, becasuse you can shot more of then in less time, but, Super M are good for long distance, dosent matter if your opponent is big or small, thi weapon still be usefull to keep your opponent far. Super M are fast and they dont have many space betwen the first missile and the second . if the opponent get closer, you easily could change into homing or Zair spam.

Up B is good, nothinh to say, is fast, very fast and have (i thing) good priority no a GREAT priority, but is OK,

i will try some of this tactic in a new way, if i have succede discovering something new, i will post it.

good work Poob

 

[pwned-by-the-poob]

Samus is at her right place in the tier list, if else she'll be lower. I'm not going to explain why, KJ has already made a post about this in the past so I'll leave it to him. :3

It doesn't really have to do with Samus as a character, I simply think that most PLAYERS aren't using Samus as effectively as she could be played, and that most people don't think about what they're doing wrong as much as they should. I think with a combination of reading, deep focus, and MASTERY of matchups, Samus can win against anyone, even if it's not that consistently. I mean, in a tourney you only have to win 2 matches in most sets anyways...

Also, is that post KJ made still up? I'd like to see it so I can understand a bit more why you all think Samus has no hope. lol

 

[KillerJawz]

I've made about XXX posts explaining why Samus is so bad, which one are you talking about Zero?

 

[ZeroL]

Haha, I meant the most recent one. <3

 

[IYM!]

Samus isnt Bad, She only need another type of playstyle

simply dont abuse to much on missiles, and learn how to use well the Uair, this move have very good priority

 

[Throwback]

Sorry if this doesn't deserve its own thread...

1. Grabs. With good enough reading, Samus can use ONLY zairs and grabs while camping and it's very hard to adapt to and get passed it. The Xyro combo can be used over and over again and once they catch on and dodge, you can predict that dodge and just delay the grab. Once you get the grab, do an F- throw and restart the spam
Repeat infinite amount of times if necessary. XD I've gotten one of the best DK's in Canada(If not the best) from 0 to 60% with just zairs and grabs. The reason he got through it after that, is because i lost focus for a second. So that's why it's important to keep focus and constantly read.

2. Short hop Super Missile to another Super Missile, and repeat. This is obvious and every Samus player knows about this, but doing it repetitively with a zair here and there is extremely effective. You may seem vulerable after the grounded super missile, but you aren't as vulnerable as you think. In videos I've seen IsmaR use grounded super missiles in slick ways several times in a match and he didn't get punished for it.

3. Up B out of shield. This is used often. simply shielding and doing up b to punish an aerial approach almost always works. And it seems that people(including myself) don't do this enough.

Most of the things I mention in this post have to do with facing characters that are forced to approach. These are just ideas though, and hopefully can lead to more ideas that are effective against projectile spam as well.

That's all i have to say for now. I'm just trying to help people and improve Samus as much as I can. Hopefully it will get people to realize how much room there is for improvement in Samus' metagame.

Again, sorry if this doesn't deserve its own post and if it was boring and repetitive... just trying to help. lol

1. Grab sucks. It really, really sucks. Guaranteed maximum punish every time it misses? No thanks.

2. meh

3. UpB OoS sucks. 10% max damage, hugely punishable, and most if not all characters can hit samus's shield far enough away to be out of range. Having said that, I use it whenever someone spaces badly.

4. Not to the OP but others - samus really is bad but like any character, she can do some great things in the right hands.

 

[KillerJawz]

3. UpB OoS sucks. 10% max damage, hugely punishable, and most if not all characters can hit samus's shield far enough away to be out of range. Having said that, I use it whenever someone spaces badly.

I thought you were cool, I really did. Until I read this.

UpB OoS is absolutely superb. It can do 13% max damage, isn't punishable if you actually know when and where to use it and hardly any characters can do that CONSTANTLY. It makes approaching Samus from above extremely difficult.

 

[IsmaR]

Up B completes Samus' Wall-o'-Spam, alongside Missiles/Charge Shots, Z-air and platforms/lower leveled halves of stages.

 

[pwned-by-the-poob]

1. Don't miss.
2. Don't believe me? try it yourself. If it doesn't work it's either the MU or it's your fault for doing it at a bad time. Repetitive double super missiles are very effective
3. Once again, don't miss. up-b has good priority and comes out really fast, it's one of Samus' best OoS options in many situations and its little knockback is just enough to make it unpunishable almost all the time(unless you do it at a really low % and/or on someone who falls pretty fast) Also most people fall for two up-b's in a row, since they TRY to punish after getting hit by it, but are just barely out of reach. Even really good players fall for this until they catch on.

 

[Throwback]

1. 12 frame start-up says hi (and that's at touch range...gl landing it consistently from a distance)
2. I said meh - I don't have any strong feelings about this. It's ok but not amazing.

UpB OoS - Unfortunately the vast majority of the cast, including Mr Short Range himself - Mario - can hit you with an aerial and still be out of range of upB OoS. However!!!! I use upB heaps. Tons even. Any time I can force the right spacing for it. But I just find a) it's stupidly punishable when it misses; and b) it's very baitable. Never mind that many other characters with an upB OoS option get kill power and/or invincibility on their upB OoS (marth, bowser, MK, mario).

For these reasons, my opinion (opinion - it's an important word) is that UpB OoS is pretty ordinary. I still use it heaps, and I also have no problem if other people's opinions of the move are higher.

 

[KillerJawz]

You do know how to do an UpB OoS, right? I'm actually serious.

It's punishable if it misses because:

1) You lack mindgames and probably just sit in your shield, allowing your opponent to SDI on reaction.

2) You're not CPing BF or PS1 enough.

3) You're playing too many Foxes?

The only characters I've seen actually punish my UpB with sheer consistancy are Fast Fallers, but they can't do it on battlefield. You can't just say 'it's my opinion' when it is clearly misguided. Yes it is your opinion, but if you're getting BAITED into UpBing by any character who isn't along the likes of Marth, you are doing it wrong :/. If the opponent is using a move you know (or see) won't get sucked into the upB, why are you using it at that moment?

 

[Throwback]

it's generally people hitting my shield while moving horizontally away in the air. You'd expect it to hit, because upB works in most situations, but it just doesn't reach & you get punished. And it happens in places when it is not possible to know whether you are going to be in range or not (usually, someone approaching from a high aerial angle). That leads to me hating the move and comparing it with other 'good' upBs (of which samus' is the worst, imo).

I agree that getting baited into using it at the wrong time is my own fault, no question. But when it's your best defence against quality shield pressure, it's hard (if not impossible) to get it right every time.

I know that my opinion is informed by my level of skill & weaknesses in my game. If my opinion changes as I improve, great.

 

[IYM!]

1. Grab sucks. It really, really sucks. Guaranteed maximum punish every time it misses? No thanks.

2. meh

3. UpB OoS sucks. 10% max damage, hugely punishable, and most if not all characters can hit samus's shield far enough away to be out of range. Having said that, I use it whenever someone spaces badly.
.

1) Zair> Dash grab isnt bad, and all her grabs have the GTFO factor, also her Dthrow is good for start a Uair set up combo. or a Fair set up.

(like a personal opinion, i like the Uthrow, this move do a decent amount of damage, and is usefull to create space for a while, this is only my opinion)

her back and foward throw give us a perfect space we and the enemie, a good moment to start (or restart if you do the grab like a braker move) a Homing M spam.

2)"meh", isnt a excuse to dont try the Super M tactics, Poob is right with those missiles, and this can help us to ad new tactics and a variaty of spam.

No offense friend, but with that attitude, I doubt you can get started to bring a better standard Samus, with the time i notificed than Samus isnt as good how i thought, but she still be a good character for me, than deserve an opportunity.

3) ?, maybe you are using it wrong or you are predictable with this move. the Up B is one of the best OoS moves than Samus have, is very fast, and do agood amount of damage

 

[KillerJawz]

I've also found myself using uthrow more. It's a really underrated throw tbh.

 

[-Crews-]

Samus is at her right place in the tier list, if else she'll be lower. I'm not going to explain why, KJ has already made a post about this in the past so I'll leave it to him. :3

Agreed. Samus is a very bad character with very good surprise capabilities. If your argument is that your beating higher tiers the majority of the time for extended periods of time, then it's most likely because of the skill difference between you and your opponent. Remember the tier list represents two opponents of completly equal skill level. And if you and your opponent are of equal skill level, then statistically you should loose the majority of the games as Samus given you both know the matchup and they use a higher tier. It seems like a lot of players tend to forget this when they argue Samus's tier placement.

 

[Throwback]

1) Zair> Dash grab isnt bad, and all her grabs have the GTFO factor, also her Dthrow is good for start a Uair set up combo. or a Fair set up.

(like a personal opinion, i like the Uthrow, this move do a decent amount of damage, and is usefull to create space for a while, this is only my opinion)

her back and foward throw give us a perfect space we and the enemie, a good moment to start (or restart if you do the grab like a braker move) a Homing M spam.

2)"meh", isnt a excuse to dont try the Super M tactics, Poob is right with those missiles, and this can help us to ad new tactics and a variaty of spam.

No offense friend, but with that attitude, I doubt you can get started to bring a better standard Samus, with the time i notificed than Samus isnt as good how i thought, but she still be a good character for me, than deserve an opportunity.

3) ?, maybe you are using it wrong or you are predictable with this move. the Up B is one of the best OoS moves than Samus have, is very fast, and do agood amount of damage

1. Her grab is very hard to land and the most punishable in the game (maybe zss is worse?). Which throw you like is irrelevant, since none of them are great anyway. Samus' grab game is really bad. Of course I still use it, but it doesn't change the fact that 'abusing' samus' grab game is never going to take samus to the next level.

2. 2nd post I said I use it from time to time. Again, it's hardly the pattern/move that is going to make samus viable.

3. I've said my piece on this.

Imo, if you really wanted to take samus to the next level, you would sit on the ledge any time you get a lead; and from there take every opportunity to switch positions (ie become the ledge-guarder). Samus has one of the strongest ledge-guards in the game.

 

[IYM!]

@throwback, yes, ZSS is more punishable.

about what throw i like, well, know than this is irrelevant, is only one opinion of wich grab is better, only an opinion.

You are right, abuse of grabs only will result in a increment in our damage percentaje, but i saw some matches were Samus was very predictable with her grabs, we only need learn ho to use well and how to combine with others moves

Imo, if you really wanted to take samus to the next level, you would sit on the ledge any time you get a lead; and from there take every opportunity to switch positions (ie become the ledge-guarder). Samus has one of the strongest ledge-guards in the game.

mmm. this is true, but i am not sure if this is efective agains all characters, and if this tactic wont be planking or another kind of staling moves.

 

[Throwback]

I think it's actually better against characters/players who are not scared of chasing you off the ledge, since their inclination to come off the ledge after you makes it relatively easy to swap.

Planking/stalling is a huge issue that has been discussed many many times, you should obviously play according to the rules of your region.

 

[Lord Chair]

Didn't read the thread because the OP states that if you just spam Xyro combo and know exactly when they'll attempt to adapt you predict spotdodges and **** them.

'S like.

REPEATEDLY HIT YOUR OPPONENT'S WEAK SPOT FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE: PROCEED TO WIN THE GAME.

Me like.

edit: Samus cannot consistently cover ledge jumps, which automatically makes her ledge guarding mediocre.

edit2: I read the thread now, all of the previous still applies.

 

[pwned-by-the-poob]

I think grab is good because people use shield/powershield often to approach samus. If you grab, then shielding turns into something that gets them farther away from you, rather than closer. Since you grab them and through them away, obviously. Also grabbing doesn't ONLY give damage, it get's the opponent away from you so you can spam and get more damage(In Samus' case, a lot of damage). Like I've said before. I mean, why NOT grab if they are shielding or about to shield? Just don't be predictable.

Also lord chair, I don't understand if you strongly disagree with me or agree with me. lol. I'm guessing you disagree with me though, like most...

Imo, if you really wanted to take samus to the next level, you would sit on the ledge any time you get a lead; and from there take every opportunity to switch positions (ie become the ledge-guarder). Samus has one of the strongest ledge-guards in the game.

I agree. But like IYM said it won't work against all characters, since some characters really limit samus' options while she is on the ledge and they are on the stage. Against the right character/player though, it's a smart thing to do. Also, you do need to get the lead first to do that. XD

 

[Throwback]

edit: Samus cannot consistently cover ledge jumps, which automatically makes her ledge guarding mediocre.

umm...utilt? The range + arc + kb is phenomenal. Zair & missiles do just fine as well. Unless you're talking about ledge-hops, in which case samus' lag-free zair/missile spam guarantees you a ftilt/dtil/fsmash punish of a ledge-hopped AD.

Every character in the game has to guess the opponent's return to the ledge, even MK.

Also @ poob: the characters which destroy samus' ledge-camping do it by chasing her over the edge (in my experience). Since your aim should be to get them on the edge so YOU can ledge-guard THEM, this is a good thing.

Spoiler

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that it puts the MK:Samus MU remotely in her favor or anything like that.

 

[WoodyWiggins]

What about Samus's Down B? Can it be used to take Samus to the next level?
It can be used out of aerials.
Her aerial mobility is decent after the bomb is released.
You can cancel the blast from affecting you by performing any attack.
I think Down B can be used as a trap.
For example: Full hop U-air , DI backwards, Boost U-smash (or any other appropriate attack, like Zair)
Yes, no?

 

[KillerJawz]

We've already researched bomb practicality, and there is none that's worth mentioning I'm afraid to say. Usmash will literally never connect. Bombs can be used to trap, but it's very situational.

 

[Muz]

I wouldn't say that bombs can take samus to the next level, nor are they useless. Just very situational. They are probably more useful in matchups where the opponent doesn't have any projectiles of their own(like MK, Ike, Gannon, DK, but not so much Marth because of his speed), AND the person doesn't quite understand the bomb mechanics.
For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IegdfE4FLE

Granted, this MK is obviously not the best there is, but in general you can sometimes predict an approach, leading to free hits with bombs, which you can usually combo from. Once the opponent learns not to rush straight through bombs, this puts you at an advantage since Samus can then work her distance game.
<gets ready for flaming>

 

[WoodyWiggins]

Well, what about Samus's combo ability? I've been working with buffers lately, and I found that you can buffer dash jumps after jabs. And they can actually register as combos depending on your timing. I usually buffer the dash jump by pressing down and rotating the control stick a half circle toward the opponent. I'm not a real Samus player, so I don't know how useful this would be in an actual match.

 

[LanceStern]

Upsmash is nice on heavy / tall characters that love spot dodging. Also surprisingly decent against Peach.

But I don't use it alot.

 

[Throwback]

yeah usmash against dk/bowser is amazing.

I personally find the best use for bombs is stalling my descent, either with a bomb jump or single bombs. Generally I use them just above the max height of the opposing character (on stage), or bomb-jumps to throw off my recovery time (off-stage).

 

[LanceStern]

Bombs give you semi-decent mobility in the air against everyone but those with invincible UpBs... they will either not hit you or eat a bomb in the process (lol like that matters).

Any use at all for the bombs I use it to hesitate my opponent that is all up in my face. Works decent on Kirby who loves to sit right in front/behind me whaling away... bombs keep him from doing that.

 

[KillerJawz]

yeah usmash against dk/bowser is amazing.

I don't approve of this. Usmash won't even hit Bowser with the final hit if he holds up, so no, it isn't amazing. It might be against DK, never tried it with him, but with Bowser, it's a big nono.

On another note, I've been doing some experimenting with down angled ftilt and bombs to hit enemies on the ledge. It's a REALLY useful mix up. If you lay a bomb, walk forward slightly and ftilt, you cover a really large area, and more often then not, if you delay your ftilt, the bomb will hit the enemy into your ftilt, oftenly scoring some early KOs.

 

[Throwback]

isn't bowser like DK in that it's essentially impossible for him to DI out?

And just because it doesn't hit bowser with the last hit doesn't make it bad - it's good when bowser has his shield depleted, or spot-dodges, or tries to land, or is on a platform.

 

[WoodyWiggins]

I don't approve of this. Usmash won't even hit Bowser with the final hit if he holds up, so no, it isn't amazing. It might be against DK, never tried it with him, but with Bowser, it's a big nono.

On another note, I've been doing some experimenting with down angled ftilt and bombs to hit enemies on the ledge. It's a REALLY useful mix up. If you lay a bomb, walk forward slightly and ftilt, you cover a really large area, and more often then not, if you delay your ftilt, the bomb will hit the enemy into your ftilt, oftenly scoring some early KOs.

That's what I was trying to get at with using bombs as traps. Like Trisha (I think her name is) in MvC3, she has magical traps that she can lay in the air. Samus's bombs are sorta similar to the magical traps. There has to be more bomb set ups like the one you described.

 

[LanceStern]

I don't approve of this. Usmash won't even hit Bowser with the final hit if he holds up, so no, it isn't amazing. It might be against DK, never tried it with him, but with Bowser, it's a big nono.

On another note, I've been doing some experimenting with down angled ftilt and bombs to hit enemies on the ledge. It's a REALLY useful mix up. If you lay a bomb, walk forward slightly and ftilt, you cover a really large area, and more often then not, if you delay your ftilt, the bomb will hit the enemy into your ftilt, oftenly scoring some early KOs.

I used to try bomb near the ledge -> utilt to cover an entire area but it was kind of slow. I didn't think about ftilt angled down. Really good idea.

It's just laying a bomb and then getting set to ftilt takes a long time. By then the opponent should be recovering high. If they are low, they should be at the ledge already and will probably hit you if your not fast enough.

 

[KillerJawz]

isn't bowser like DK in that it's essentially impossible for him to DI out?

And just because it doesn't hit bowser with the last hit doesn't make it bad - it's good when bowser has his shield depleted, or spot-dodges, or tries to land, or is on a platform.

Any character can DI out of her Usmash, it's just substantially more difficult for larger characters, Bowser however can get out easily. Also I may add that if our final hit doesnt land on Bowser he has a free FF'ed fair on us.

That's what I was trying to get at with using bombs as traps. Like Trisha (I think her name is) in MvC3, she has magical traps that she can lay in the air. Samus's bombs are sorta similar to the magical traps. There has to be more bomb set ups like the one you described.

Oh okay, sorry I misunderstood what you were getting at.

I used to try bomb near the ledge -> utilt to cover an entire area but it was kind of slow. I didn't think about ftilt angled down. Really good idea.

It's just laying a bomb and then getting set to ftilt takes a long time. By then the opponent should be recovering high. If they are low, they should be at the ledge already and will probably hit you if your not fast enough.

That's true. If the opponent does happen to recover high, I do what you do, lay a bomb and utilt, or just utilt on it's own.

Side note: I've actually nicknamed utilt the heel of dreams.. it's just that good.

 

[WoodyWiggins]

lol, heel of dreams.
What about missle follow-ups?
For instance shooting a missle and going for an aerial attack?
Are there any notable charge shot setups?
I was able to pull off a full jump bomb -> charged shot one time. But it's not a gaurunteed combo or any thing. Also, I did a full jump bomb-> bair and it looked neat because after releasing the bomb, I tapped the c-stick to the right to avoid an aerial from diddy and hit him with a bair.
And this is just a wild, stab in the dark question, but do you all think that inputs can be buffered in the charge shot cancel window?

 

[KillerJawz]

Oh my sexy creation. Full of mindgames and disgraceful ****.

Falling uair > Jump > CS.

The last hit of uair won't connect, so the opponent will shield predicting another move, instead you jump, their shield drops, and you CS them. Note. Does not work on smaller characters.

 

[Crystanium]

Oh my sexy creation. Full of mindgames and disgraceful ****.

Falling uair > Jump > CS.

The last hit of uair won't connect, so the opponent will shield predicting another move, instead you jump, their shield drops, and you CS them. Note. Does not work on smaller characters.

This doesn't seem practical. The u-air may work, but with the jump added and then using the Charge Shot, there is just too much time to do something about the situation. Not to mention, this relies on the mistake of your opponent. It may work if there is more hitstun, but such is not the case here.