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Tales of Brawl - Innerscope has released Lloyd 2.0!
- Thread starter GP&B
- Start date
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
As long as you can fix it, that's good to know. Good luck.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Well, I concede of the sword rain for d-tilt suggestion I suppose. It still bugs me, but if that's what the majority wants that's cool.
@Plaid, perhaps our imaginations of beast are a little off. I was thinking that beast would have the initial shoulder hit, and then the beast hit. But the two hits would obviously combo into each other barring some kind of ridiculous smash DI. So in that sense beast would actually be a moderately fast f-smash overall, so I didn't think it would be all that strong (I was thinking maybe the strength of Ike's f-tilt). It would have a lot of disjointedness with the beast head, come out fast, and not have a terrible amount of endlag, so I didn't want it to be strong.
If you had a different idea for Beast I'd love to hear it and compare them. I made my arte chain argument under the assumption that none of his artes would be particularly strong, so it'd be no different than any other character comboing into smashes (DI dependant of course).
And I appoligize for being so harsh in my response earlier.
And just out of curiosity, why does everyone want Ike's QD slash to be Lloyd's dash attac? 0_o. I guess it "kind of" looks like his union attack animation. Idk, I can't think of anything better myself so....<_<
@Plaid, perhaps our imaginations of beast are a little off. I was thinking that beast would have the initial shoulder hit, and then the beast hit. But the two hits would obviously combo into each other barring some kind of ridiculous smash DI. So in that sense beast would actually be a moderately fast f-smash overall, so I didn't think it would be all that strong (I was thinking maybe the strength of Ike's f-tilt). It would have a lot of disjointedness with the beast head, come out fast, and not have a terrible amount of endlag, so I didn't want it to be strong.
If you had a different idea for Beast I'd love to hear it and compare them. I made my arte chain argument under the assumption that none of his artes would be particularly strong, so it'd be no different than any other character comboing into smashes (DI dependant of course).
And I appoligize for being so harsh in my response earlier.
And just out of curiosity, why does everyone want Ike's QD slash to be Lloyd's dash attac? 0_o. I guess it "kind of" looks like his union attack animation. Idk, I can't think of anything better myself so....<_<
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Meh, tentative DA idea. I like Plaid's idea since it makes a bit more sense.
Yeah, I had imagined beast pretty differently. I thought Sonic Thrust would be his Fsmash since Beast is a lot more... elaborate. Sonic Thrust fits as an fsmash since it's simple, should be chargable, and would hit in the right direction. I thought Beast would be his down b. I think Rising Falcon (which, I think, is currently listed as down b) should be side b since its motion is mostly sideways. Also, Beast aerially should become the downwards part of Hunting Beast (in a manner similar to Bowser's down b, Lloyd plummets toward the ground. However, the strong hitbox only occurs when he hits the ground similar to DDD's up b), which only makes sense if it's a down b. I hadn't imagined Beast as chargable, and I don't think it should be. I had thought that it would come out quickly, but I thought the compensation would not be decreased power but excessive endlag. It's a high-risk, high-reward move with the punishment coming if it misses, not before he can pull it off. Also, for dealing with the disjointed hitboxes, I thought it would be best if the gigantic beast head thing did not actually activate unless the hit connected. That way, it can be dodged and appropriately punished (just the shoulder part would also have huge endlag), and there are no problems about making recovery impossible. As a side note, Lloyd would only yell "Beast" if the shoulder part connected and he performed the second hit. If he missed, he'd just make some kind of grunting noise or something.
Zephron
Smash Ace
I agree with Sonic thrust being his side smash, it makes a lot of sense.
However, I imagined Beast to be more of a sideways move, so it would be better for his side B.
Rising Falcon should be Down B because it's similar to a ton more down B moves. (Consider Bowser's down B, or Yoshi's) I imagined it like that.
Beast would still have the Hunting Beast effect in the air.
I just think it would feel better.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Rising Falcon would be given less startup lag in the air, just like when you're using certain EX Skills in ToS1 and then execute it in the air. That's what I suggest.
I think it'd also be amazing if it could ledge cancel. Platform places would be a haven for using Rising Falcon -> ledge cancel -> move.
I think it'd also be amazing if it could ledge cancel. Platform places would be a haven for using Rising Falcon -> ledge cancel -> move.
Zephron
Smash Ace
I approve of this ledge grabbing behavior.
@ GD
If everyone agrees/concedes on a move, please mark it immediately on the moveset and put a asterisk by it for being discussed. That way we can keep track and make sure we agree on everything.
I think we agreed on the Dtilt at least.
Umm... Zeph... Using side b in the air does not commonly cause you to plummet straight down. Similarly, Down B does not usually cause you to move mostly sideways... And, making sure we're all on the same page, I'm going to describe how I thought Rising Falcon would work.
Lloyd slowly goes backwards diagonally up. He has a state like Ike’s Aether at this point; you can damage him but no knockback. He then goes forward diagonally down (shallower angle than the original) with the little green sonic thrust circles around him as he dives with his swords in front of him. The knockback goes diagonally downward at the same rate that Lloyd does and there’s another hitbox as he hits the ground, a very weak upward one with (relatively) lots of hitstun for comboing. If done in the air, the first part of rising up is skipped and it goes straight to the dive. Dive 7%, ground hit 5%
I don't think that the angle should be very steep, another reason that it should be his side b rather than down. Rising Falcon goes farther sideways than Beast does...
Lloyd slowly goes backwards diagonally up. He has a state like Ike’s Aether at this point; you can damage him but no knockback. He then goes forward diagonally down (shallower angle than the original) with the little green sonic thrust circles around him as he dives with his swords in front of him. The knockback goes diagonally downward at the same rate that Lloyd does and there’s another hitbox as he hits the ground, a very weak upward one with (relatively) lots of hitstun for comboing. If done in the air, the first part of rising up is skipped and it goes straight to the dive. Dive 7%, ground hit 5%
I don't think that the angle should be very steep, another reason that it should be his side b rather than down. Rising Falcon goes farther sideways than Beast does...
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
My thoughts were to give it a greater horizontal angle over vertical mostly to compliment the momentum gained from it for better ledge cancels. Hopefully, there should be ways in PSA to indicate frame periods in which moves can have you ledge cancel. Heck, it might happen naturally, but if not, we can always consult any Brawl+ coder about how they did ledge canceling for help.
Ok, so *'s indicate a move under discussion or open to debate. Otherwise, that particular move is set in stone unless there isn't a move indicated in the first place. Thanks Zephron.
Not to change the move topic, but I'd like to settle something fairly easy: grabs. Lloyd doesn't have any grab moves in his game, but honestly, I just want something that people can agree on. Shouldn't be hard to do. I'll start off by saying the grab jab would be hitting the opponent with the butt of one of his swords.
Ok, so *'s indicate a move under discussion or open to debate. Otherwise, that particular move is set in stone unless there isn't a move indicated in the first place. Thanks Zephron.
Not to change the move topic, but I'd like to settle something fairly easy: grabs. Lloyd doesn't have any grab moves in his game, but honestly, I just want something that people can agree on. Shouldn't be hard to do. I'll start off by saying the grab jab would be hitting the opponent with the butt of one of his swords.
Zephron
Smash Ace
@Plaid
Uh, yeah a ton of down B moves go sideways. Did I not just mention Yoshi's and Bowser's as examples? They go sideways if you use them on the ground, and if used in the air, you just do the dive.
Sound familiar?
Most side B moves don't make you go up in the air, if you're arguing like that.
I can't name one.
It's going to feel extremely odd to use side B as that type of move. Beast will work so much better as a side B because the move itself suits it better.
The moves themselves are going to be the exact same. I just want Beast to be Side B.
@ GD
Okay.
Lloyd is going to be doing a lot of damage with his comboes so I recommend his grabs to not focus on that. He should have a medium speed pummel, and should have a couple decent ones and the rest are going to be frankly, crappy.
Lloyd never grabbed ingame. It's fine he does in Brawl, but we can't make him a grab-happy character because otherwise it won't be Lloyd. Just give him some simple animations grabbed from other Brawl characters and make the grabs a typical arsenal.
If you don't want any of his grabs to be iffy / useless, consider Lucas. No one ever uses his up throw. Ever.
It's completely useless.
But Lucas's bthrow and fthrow are good for normal throws. Not outstanding, but good.
His dthrow is used for comboing.
I don't play grabby characters much but I consider that a good example.
We should make Lloyd's grabs similar perhaps.
Key word similar.
Uh, yeah a ton of down B moves go sideways. Did I not just mention Yoshi's and Bowser's as examples? They go sideways if you use them on the ground, and if used in the air, you just do the dive.
Sound familiar?
Most side B moves don't make you go up in the air, if you're arguing like that.
I can't name one.
It's going to feel extremely odd to use side B as that type of move. Beast will work so much better as a side B because the move itself suits it better.
The moves themselves are going to be the exact same. I just want Beast to be Side B.
@ GD
Okay.
Lloyd is going to be doing a lot of damage with his comboes so I recommend his grabs to not focus on that. He should have a medium speed pummel, and should have a couple decent ones and the rest are going to be frankly, crappy.
Lloyd never grabbed ingame. It's fine he does in Brawl, but we can't make him a grab-happy character because otherwise it won't be Lloyd. Just give him some simple animations grabbed from other Brawl characters and make the grabs a typical arsenal.
If you don't want any of his grabs to be iffy / useless, consider Lucas. No one ever uses his up throw. Ever.
It's completely useless.
But Lucas's bthrow and fthrow are good for normal throws. Not outstanding, but good.
His dthrow is used for comboing.
I don't play grabby characters much but I consider that a good example.
We should make Lloyd's grabs similar perhaps.
Key word similar.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Yeah, I didn't plan on giving him spectacular grabs. I suppose an average grab game would consist of throws that don't chain, setup, or kill. They're good for punishing SHFFL spammers (Brawl-equivalent and such) like any grab and that'll be it really. I could maybe have one kill throw, but not like Mario's BThrow in B+ which is very reliable for kills.
Just throwing out an idea; I always thought of DSpecial as Beast... I mean SSpecial works with Beast too, but if it was on DSpecial, it could go to Hunting Beast in midair.
To me, Rising Falcon seemed like a DAir attack.
To me, Rising Falcon seemed like a DAir attack.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Well, even with your idea for beast, there's nothing inherently broken about being able to arte chain into it. What's most relevant for this is that both versions of beast come out fast, meaning there's really no difference in how the mechanic would work. Arte chaining into beast would be just as simple as fairing into beast with both of our versions of beast, so all we have to do is make sure that comboing into beast is not in itself broken.
For this matter, I think beast should not have good power. As long as a move has quick startup it will simply be combo'd into to negate any endlag problems (see Fox upsmash or Marth f-smash for examples). Making the move too powerful will make it broken regardless of the risk for missing, because comboing into it will reduce that risk to zero anyway.
So a quick startup, above medium power, medium endlag beast would be the best way to go balance wise imo. As for the beast attack itself not activating unless the shoulder hit connects...I want to hear the opinions of others on this. The beast head activating regardless would make it a devastating punish for poor spacing on the opponent's part (Marth missing a fair and eating a beast would be so satisfying). However, having the beast head not activate will make the move safer to throw out in general (still not exactly a good bait since it obviously has no hitbox).
And Rising Falcon being down B or side B kinda depends on the angle we want it to go at. I personally think it's kind of strange for a side B to make you jump, but the aerial version easily fits as either side B or down B.
Oh, and I wanted beast to be f-smash because I like the idea of a chargeable beast head
. I thought side B was gonna be Sonic Thrust (and smash side B would be Super Sonic Thrust or something. Maybe aerial side B could be Hurricane Thrust)
For throws, using Marth's throws for example would be great.
Upthrow-low lag, low knockback, vertical throw. Assuming Lloyd has bad aerial kill moves, there's really nothing broken about letting him combo off of throws for a while.
D-throw-low lag, low knockback, low angle throw. Good for setting up tech chases or forcing an opponent off stage.
F-throw-low lag, low knocback, mid angle throw. Still sets up tech chases on fast fallers, but combos floaties at low-mid percents
B-throw-????
maybe d-throw and b-throw should be switched, but I think Lloyd would play really well with this type of grab game. It's a fairly good grab game, but it focuses more on the combos you get from the throws instead of the throws themselves killing (or comboing into a kill move.)
For this matter, I think beast should not have good power. As long as a move has quick startup it will simply be combo'd into to negate any endlag problems (see Fox upsmash or Marth f-smash for examples). Making the move too powerful will make it broken regardless of the risk for missing, because comboing into it will reduce that risk to zero anyway.
So a quick startup, above medium power, medium endlag beast would be the best way to go balance wise imo. As for the beast attack itself not activating unless the shoulder hit connects...I want to hear the opinions of others on this. The beast head activating regardless would make it a devastating punish for poor spacing on the opponent's part (Marth missing a fair and eating a beast would be so satisfying). However, having the beast head not activate will make the move safer to throw out in general (still not exactly a good bait since it obviously has no hitbox).
And Rising Falcon being down B or side B kinda depends on the angle we want it to go at. I personally think it's kind of strange for a side B to make you jump, but the aerial version easily fits as either side B or down B.
Oh, and I wanted beast to be f-smash because I like the idea of a chargeable beast head
. I thought side B was gonna be Sonic Thrust (and smash side B would be Super Sonic Thrust or something. Maybe aerial side B could be Hurricane Thrust)For throws, using Marth's throws for example would be great.
Upthrow-low lag, low knockback, vertical throw. Assuming Lloyd has bad aerial kill moves, there's really nothing broken about letting him combo off of throws for a while.
D-throw-low lag, low knockback, low angle throw. Good for setting up tech chases or forcing an opponent off stage.
F-throw-low lag, low knocback, mid angle throw. Still sets up tech chases on fast fallers, but combos floaties at low-mid percents
B-throw-????
maybe d-throw and b-throw should be switched, but I think Lloyd would play really well with this type of grab game. It's a fairly good grab game, but it focuses more on the combos you get from the throws instead of the throws themselves killing (or comboing into a kill move.)
Zephron
Smash Ace
It doesn't matter about the button config for the move to change in midair..
So, I was discussing the matter of Beast's input with Zephron at lunch today. "Discussing" is a mild word for it. In an effort to be understandable, I created a slightly fail diagram in paint. lolpaint. Here it is:
The top left is the angle the real rising falcon travels. I checked it. The bottom left is how I imagined the Brawl Rising Falcon traveling. It really does not make sense to make the angle steeper. As you can see from the diagram, it would work perfectly fine as a sideways move; most of it is sideways.
Now we shall examine that last bit of Hunting Beast. As seems to be the general consensus, it is the best and probably only choice for Beast to become in midair. Also in the video I viewed, Lloyd performed Hunting Beast. Exactly as I had thought, the last hit goes straight down. There is no angle, the part that we want to use, if it is to be at all canon, goes straight down (hence the bottom right picture. Zeph was trying to say we should angle Hunting Beast and make it non-canon just so that it could be side b rather than down). What one expects to happen when one uses side b in the air is not to go straight down in a manner similar to (what a surprise) Yoshi and Bowser's down b's (it would be pretty fast, like their versions). Rather unsurprisingly, that is what one would expect to happen if one pressed down b in the air. Similarly, side b would make you go more sideways. It still would be down, but as is also shown by the picture, the sideways component is much greater anyway.
The top left is the angle the real rising falcon travels. I checked it. The bottom left is how I imagined the Brawl Rising Falcon traveling. It really does not make sense to make the angle steeper. As you can see from the diagram, it would work perfectly fine as a sideways move; most of it is sideways.
Now we shall examine that last bit of Hunting Beast. As seems to be the general consensus, it is the best and probably only choice for Beast to become in midair. Also in the video I viewed, Lloyd performed Hunting Beast. Exactly as I had thought, the last hit goes straight down. There is no angle, the part that we want to use, if it is to be at all canon, goes straight down (hence the bottom right picture. Zeph was trying to say we should angle Hunting Beast and make it non-canon just so that it could be side b rather than down). What one expects to happen when one uses side b in the air is not to go straight down in a manner similar to (what a surprise) Yoshi and Bowser's down b's (it would be pretty fast, like their versions). Rather unsurprisingly, that is what one would expect to happen if one pressed down b in the air. Similarly, side b would make you go more sideways. It still would be down, but as is also shown by the picture, the sideways component is much greater anyway.
Junahu
Smash Ace
I'm extremely intrigued by all this discussion about a prospective moveset for Lloyd.
Neutral Special: Demon Fang: I found the idea of charging it up to produce more of the same projectile to be a little offputting. It would be hard to justify charging to Double Demon Fang, over say, using Demon Fang twice in a row. In all honesty, I don't know why Demon Fang needs to be charged at all. I don't remember charging up my swift little projectile in ToS.
Up Special: Tempest: I agree that this should be the Up-B attack. But I'd like to suggest being able to press Up-B a second time during Tempest, to turn it into Omega Tempest, which would cause Lloyd to change course and spin directly upwards. If nothing else, it would look nifty.
Down Special: Rising Falcon: Though Plaid makes a good point, I would still think Rising Falcon would feel more comfortable on Down-B. Even though there's more horizontal than vertical travel, the fact that Lloyd travels downwards, at all, makes Rising Falcon an awkward Side-B (I don't recall any Side-B that involves a downwards push).
I'd think having Rising Falcon as Down-B and making the angle slightly steeper when used in mid-air would be fine.. or at least acceptable.
Side Special: Sonic Thrust: Beast really looks like a chargeable smash attack to me. Sonic Thrust demonstrates a bit more finess, and a slimmer hitbox, which I believe makes it more suited to a Special attack, particularly the Side Special. At the very least, Sonic Thrust could provide some horizontal momentum if used in midair.
Neutral Special: Demon Fang: I found the idea of charging it up to produce more of the same projectile to be a little offputting. It would be hard to justify charging to Double Demon Fang, over say, using Demon Fang twice in a row. In all honesty, I don't know why Demon Fang needs to be charged at all. I don't remember charging up my swift little projectile in ToS.
Up Special: Tempest: I agree that this should be the Up-B attack. But I'd like to suggest being able to press Up-B a second time during Tempest, to turn it into Omega Tempest, which would cause Lloyd to change course and spin directly upwards. If nothing else, it would look nifty.
Down Special: Rising Falcon: Though Plaid makes a good point, I would still think Rising Falcon would feel more comfortable on Down-B. Even though there's more horizontal than vertical travel, the fact that Lloyd travels downwards, at all, makes Rising Falcon an awkward Side-B (I don't recall any Side-B that involves a downwards push).
I'd think having Rising Falcon as Down-B and making the angle slightly steeper when used in mid-air would be fine.. or at least acceptable.
Side Special: Sonic Thrust: Beast really looks like a chargeable smash attack to me. Sonic Thrust demonstrates a bit more finess, and a slimmer hitbox, which I believe makes it more suited to a Special attack, particularly the Side Special. At the very least, Sonic Thrust could provide some horizontal momentum if used in midair.
I agree with everything Junahu says, especially the implementation of omega tempest. I too imagined demon fang to be fast so it could turn into double demon fang but with more spacing.
EDIT: http://ioj.com/v/0fbjq Beast :D
EDIT: http://ioj.com/v/0fbjq Beast :D
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Oh, what the heck? If there is something we can put that over and use we're doing it, enough said lol.
I would like to respectfully disagree. Again.
Side note, that Beast is epic.
Moving right along, the Omega Tempest is cool, but I don't think it should be implemented. First off, Lloyd's recovery is already arguably too good. Tempest already goes pretty high, and it's flexible in your ability to move horizontally. Lloyd's character type is not supposed to be able to recover quite that well. It gives him too much of an offedge game, which is not supposed to be his strong suit.
Demon Fang: While it technically is more canon not to have Demon Fang chargable, that makes no sense in terms of Brawl. No projectiles initially that weak aren't chargable. As I already recommended, Demon Fang should remain a single projectile, but become stronger, faster, and longer-lasting as it is charged.
Sonic Thrust: As I already said, Sonic Thrust is much more of smash attack than special attack material. Beast is decidedly more elaborate. Sonic Thrust is very similar to some fsmashes that already exist. Beast is... not. Besides, I don't think Beast needs to be charged... it's already going to be epic.
Addressing your point about Sonic Thrust, the finesse and smaller hitbox are reasons it should be a smash and not a special, imo. I don't quite get from whence your idea originates, but k.
Rising Falcon: While you also have a good point, there's no overlooking the fact that making Rising Falcon the down b would make Hunting Beast virtually unusable, and Beast is really not ok for the air. I suppose in your plan that wasn't a problem anyway, but I don't like how Sonic Thrust would work in the air either.
Side note, that Beast is epic.
Moving right along, the Omega Tempest is cool, but I don't think it should be implemented. First off, Lloyd's recovery is already arguably too good. Tempest already goes pretty high, and it's flexible in your ability to move horizontally. Lloyd's character type is not supposed to be able to recover quite that well. It gives him too much of an offedge game, which is not supposed to be his strong suit.
Demon Fang: While it technically is more canon not to have Demon Fang chargable, that makes no sense in terms of Brawl. No projectiles initially that weak aren't chargable. As I already recommended, Demon Fang should remain a single projectile, but become stronger, faster, and longer-lasting as it is charged.
Sonic Thrust: As I already said, Sonic Thrust is much more of smash attack than special attack material. Beast is decidedly more elaborate. Sonic Thrust is very similar to some fsmashes that already exist. Beast is... not. Besides, I don't think Beast needs to be charged... it's already going to be epic.
Addressing your point about Sonic Thrust, the finesse and smaller hitbox are reasons it should be a smash and not a special, imo. I don't quite get from whence your idea originates, but k.
Rising Falcon: While you also have a good point, there's no overlooking the fact that making Rising Falcon the down b would make Hunting Beast virtually unusable, and Beast is really not ok for the air. I suppose in your plan that wasn't a problem anyway, but I don't like how Sonic Thrust would work in the air either.
WiyamMang
Smash Journeyman
I'm more of a TOA kind of guy. Only discovered that after playing TOS2 *shudder*.
GG though. It's pretty, to put it bluntly.
GG though. It's pretty, to put it bluntly.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
My dreams of a chargeable beast have been dashed Q_Q.
Looking at the angle you've got for Rising Falcon (which has to be the most misleading name for a move EVER), that could make a respectable side B. So Down B will be beast and aerial down B will be beast. That's gonna make doing a reverse beast quite a pain in the ***, but I'll manage (b-reversals ftw?).
Anyway, do you at least agree with my point that beast should have medium knockback? (and by medium, I mean a little less than Ike's f-tilt).
So what do we want to do for hunting beast anyway? So far I think we all agree that it will have a large landing hitbox, but what else? Will the diving itself have a hitbox? (if so, will it spike? and how strong?). What direction will the landing hitbox send and how strong will it be? How much endlag will it have?
I know that getting the animations up and running is more important, but I like the discussions we've been having so far.
Looking at the angle you've got for Rising Falcon (which has to be the most misleading name for a move EVER), that could make a respectable side B. So Down B will be beast and aerial down B will be beast. That's gonna make doing a reverse beast quite a pain in the ***, but I'll manage (b-reversals ftw?).
Anyway, do you at least agree with my point that beast should have medium knockback? (and by medium, I mean a little less than Ike's f-tilt).
So what do we want to do for hunting beast anyway? So far I think we all agree that it will have a large landing hitbox, but what else? Will the diving itself have a hitbox? (if so, will it spike? and how strong?). What direction will the landing hitbox send and how strong will it be? How much endlag will it have?
I know that getting the animations up and running is more important, but I like the discussions we've been having so far.
Junahu
Smash Ace
Demon Fang: Don't all three Starfox representatives, G&W, Mario and Luigi have an unchargeable weak projectile as their Neutral-B? But I can at least agree with you that charging a demon fang should simply make the demon fang stronger and faster
Tempest: Surely if it is canonically feasible for him to recover from a great distance both vertically and horizontally, as evidenced by even the most muted interpretation of his Tempest techs, it would be fine for him to actually recover this well in Brawl.
But if Lloyd can't use Omega Tempest, can he at least interrupt Tempest with Rising Falcon? Sky Attack was one of the few Compound EX Skills Lloyd could call his own.
Sonic Thrust: I've always felt that foreward smashes were violent, broad swings, explosions and such, which fits Beast closer than it does Sonic Thrust. Then again, this discrepency is all tied up in whether Beast is Down-B.
Beast: I can understand the reason for Hunting Beast being aerial Down-B, as it does sound entertaining. But what's the reasoning behind regular Beast being grounded Down-B, other than to satisfy the unique conditions neccessary to keep Hunting Beast as an aerial Down-B?
Rising Falcon: Looking again at your diagram for Rising Falcon, I'm reminded of ZeroSuitSamus' Down-B, if only because it clears horizontal distance after jumping off of the ground.
Zephron
Smash Ace
I don't know.
I like the fact he does both normal and Omega, but frankly I don't think it's needed.
It sounds really aggravating to code and frankly it will make Lloyd's recovery too good.
Tempest really should be his recovery move though, at the very least.
Just please, no Omega Tempest. It's not going to work.
As for Demon Fang, I think it should either be chargeable like Plaid suggests, OR be unchargeable but have a little more damage.
I don't want this to be an "okay" move. Anyone who loves Lloyd loves Demon Fang.
I like the fact he does both normal and Omega, but frankly I don't think it's needed.
It sounds really aggravating to code and frankly it will make Lloyd's recovery too good.
Tempest really should be his recovery move though, at the very least.
Although this may clash with the "too good" recovery aspect, we can edit the distance everything goes. I think we could do this.
Just please, no Omega Tempest. It's not going to work.
As for Demon Fang, I think it should either be chargeable like Plaid suggests, OR be unchargeable but have a little more damage.
I don't want this to be an "okay" move. Anyone who loves Lloyd loves Demon Fang.
Looks like I've got quite a bit to cover here. Well, first things first...
@Dark Sonic: I'm fine with whatever kind of knockback on beast, as long as the afterlag is proportional. I would, however, prefer if it were a little stronger than your recommendation. I think Beast shoud be one of his kill moves. You are right in the sense that making Lloyd have a move that powerful doesn't quite fit the rest of his character (speedy, medium power, and ground based).
I had imagined Hunting Beast being a little like Bowser and Yoshi's down b's except for the fact that the real hitbox only appears as Lloyd hits the ground. The knockback would mostly be sideways, not particularly strong (weaker than regular Beast, but still certainly worth hitting), and if Lloyd hits people as he's plummeting, they get taken down with him be a weak spike hit in a manner pretty similar to Dedede's up b (in that if you're too high up, you probably won't be around for hit at the bottom, but it still leads into it with bad DI or close proximity to ground). The afterlag wouldn't be that much. We want it punishable, but it's still supposed to be the sort of thing that Lloyd users could use to get back down to the stage.
@Junahu: First, Demon Fang. While a lot of characters do have the unchargable, weaker attacks, they aren't really in Lloyd's style. The little, short range interruptions are not how I think Lloyd's move should work. I imagined it more like arrows; they can be released early to harry people but could also be charged for a stronger attack when appropriate. I'd like it if it were chargable.
In terms of fsmashes, very few of them are how you imagine them. Examples are such as Bowser's and Ike's, neither of whom Lloyd is supposed to be similar to. Examples of characters with quicker, smaller, and/or thrust-like hitboxes for fsmashes are Lucas, Toon Link, Link, Ness, Mario, Luigi, Sonic, Zelda, Meta Knight, and many others, all of whom have a style (particularly in smashes) to which Lloyd is supposed to be more similar.
As for your other point about Beast being down b for reasons other than Hunting Beast, Hunting Beast is the strongest reason. Otherwise it makes no sense. Of the other reasons, I don't think Rising Falcon fits as a down move (its motion is mostly sideways), and there's really not any reason not to. Beast to me just seems to fit better in the down b slot, even on the ground. The biggest reason here is that there's no problem in down b like there is in every other slot.
@Dark Sonic: I'm fine with whatever kind of knockback on beast, as long as the afterlag is proportional. I would, however, prefer if it were a little stronger than your recommendation. I think Beast shoud be one of his kill moves. You are right in the sense that making Lloyd have a move that powerful doesn't quite fit the rest of his character (speedy, medium power, and ground based).
I had imagined Hunting Beast being a little like Bowser and Yoshi's down b's except for the fact that the real hitbox only appears as Lloyd hits the ground. The knockback would mostly be sideways, not particularly strong (weaker than regular Beast, but still certainly worth hitting), and if Lloyd hits people as he's plummeting, they get taken down with him be a weak spike hit in a manner pretty similar to Dedede's up b (in that if you're too high up, you probably won't be around for hit at the bottom, but it still leads into it with bad DI or close proximity to ground). The afterlag wouldn't be that much. We want it punishable, but it's still supposed to be the sort of thing that Lloyd users could use to get back down to the stage.
@Junahu: First, Demon Fang. While a lot of characters do have the unchargable, weaker attacks, they aren't really in Lloyd's style. The little, short range interruptions are not how I think Lloyd's move should work. I imagined it more like arrows; they can be released early to harry people but could also be charged for a stronger attack when appropriate. I'd like it if it were chargable.
In terms of fsmashes, very few of them are how you imagine them. Examples are such as Bowser's and Ike's, neither of whom Lloyd is supposed to be similar to. Examples of characters with quicker, smaller, and/or thrust-like hitboxes for fsmashes are Lucas, Toon Link, Link, Ness, Mario, Luigi, Sonic, Zelda, Meta Knight, and many others, all of whom have a style (particularly in smashes) to which Lloyd is supposed to be more similar.
As for your other point about Beast being down b for reasons other than Hunting Beast, Hunting Beast is the strongest reason. Otherwise it makes no sense. Of the other reasons, I don't think Rising Falcon fits as a down move (its motion is mostly sideways), and there's really not any reason not to. Beast to me just seems to fit better in the down b slot, even on the ground. The biggest reason here is that there's no problem in down b like there is in every other slot.
I honestly think Demon fang shouldn't charge, it just doesn't make sense, I'm more for being able to just rapidly press the B button to make another demon fang come out, hence the idea of Double Demon Fang. Also the sword swing will do damage.... just cuz :D
Here's how I think it should be as of now:
UB - Tempest and Omega Tempest ~ This will work exactly liek I stated above, hold the button for omega tempest or only tap it for normal tempest. (Omega = Up Normal = More horizontal) Both lead into special fall.
NB - Demon fang and double demon fang ~ See above
DB - In air: Rising Phoenix/falcon On ground: Anything but beast (Demonic circle perhaps) ~ I don't have to explain this
SB - Sonic thrust ~ See Junahu's explanation for what I want to see.
Aerials: Slashes, nothing special. Nair is also Tempest, but just without any momentum.
Tilts: Don't really care here, prolly just 1 hit slashes here and there.
Smashes:
Fsmash - 4 to 1 slash ~ basic killing move, nothing special, just his standard slash only chargeable.
Dsmash - Low sweep ~ Uses both swords to slash in front of him and behind him at the same time, slashes are close to the ground and have horizontal kb. Think like Ike's dtilt only with the other hand slashing behind him as well.
Usmash - Scissor slash ~ Slashes a spot directly above him with a single slash from both swords, backhand.
Jab combo - Regular "A" move in TOS2 only has the potential to do a rapid jab instead of the spin if you press the button at the right time.
also this is how sword moves work:
1_____2
3_____4
When I say 1 to 4 or 2 to 3, I mean the way he slashes, the "Diagram" shows what kind of slash I mean.
Here's how I think it should be as of now:
UB - Tempest and Omega Tempest ~ This will work exactly liek I stated above, hold the button for omega tempest or only tap it for normal tempest. (Omega = Up Normal = More horizontal) Both lead into special fall.
NB - Demon fang and double demon fang ~ See above
DB - In air: Rising Phoenix/falcon On ground: Anything but beast (Demonic circle perhaps) ~ I don't have to explain this
SB - Sonic thrust ~ See Junahu's explanation for what I want to see.
Aerials: Slashes, nothing special. Nair is also Tempest, but just without any momentum.
Tilts: Don't really care here, prolly just 1 hit slashes here and there.
Smashes:
Fsmash - 4 to 1 slash ~ basic killing move, nothing special, just his standard slash only chargeable.
Dsmash - Low sweep ~ Uses both swords to slash in front of him and behind him at the same time, slashes are close to the ground and have horizontal kb. Think like Ike's dtilt only with the other hand slashing behind him as well.
Usmash - Scissor slash ~ Slashes a spot directly above him with a single slash from both swords, backhand.
Jab combo - Regular "A" move in TOS2 only has the potential to do a rapid jab instead of the spin if you press the button at the right time.
also this is how sword moves work:
1_____2
3_____4
When I say 1 to 4 or 2 to 3, I mean the way he slashes, the "Diagram" shows what kind of slash I mean.
Junahu
Smash Ace
@Zephron: Fair enough. It was just a suggestion anyway
@Plaid: As always, you argue a good case. But it seems like a wedge to base so much of the arguement on the fact hunting beast would work best on Down-B. Aerial-Down-A could also reasonable be used, as there is already quite a variation on Brawl's plummet down attacks.
Just as you can argue that Hunting Beast's plummeting/slamming nature proves that Beast must be Down-B, I can argue that the leap up at the start of Rising Falcon before attacking while returning to the ground (in keeping with Yoshi, ZeroSuitSamus and Bowser's grounded Down-B attacks) proves that Rising Falcon must be Down-B
@Thanyu: I can't agree with using Tempest/OmegaTempest based on whether you hold B or not. The difference between the two moves is pretty severe.
The other thing I have to criticise is the lack of Tiger Blade, one of Lloyd's most signature attacks.
Foreward Smash should definitely be at least some sort of Tech, presumeably either Beast or Sonic Thrust
Similarly, I remember Demonic Circle being suggested for the Down-Smash, for its ability to hit either side of Lloyd. Fierce Demon Fang is also possible, though it doesn't hit all around like Demonic Chaos.
@Plaid: As always, you argue a good case. But it seems like a wedge to base so much of the arguement on the fact hunting beast would work best on Down-B. Aerial-Down-A could also reasonable be used, as there is already quite a variation on Brawl's plummet down attacks.
I'd argue that this discussion alone proves otherwise
Just as you can argue that Hunting Beast's plummeting/slamming nature proves that Beast must be Down-B, I can argue that the leap up at the start of Rising Falcon before attacking while returning to the ground (in keeping with Yoshi, ZeroSuitSamus and Bowser's grounded Down-B attacks) proves that Rising Falcon must be Down-B
@Thanyu: I can't agree with using Tempest/OmegaTempest based on whether you hold B or not. The difference between the two moves is pretty severe.
The other thing I have to criticise is the lack of Tiger Blade, one of Lloyd's most signature attacks.
Foreward Smash should definitely be at least some sort of Tech, presumeably either Beast or Sonic Thrust
Similarly, I remember Demonic Circle being suggested for the Down-Smash, for its ability to hit either side of Lloyd. Fierce Demon Fang is also possible, though it doesn't hit all around like Demonic Chaos.
Zephron
Smash Ace
I made that point like 5 times to Plaid, but he insists that his point is stronger than yours and even went to the point of saying he won't even play Lloyd if this happens.
Then again that's true if you go against like 1/2 of the things he says.
Both moves hit mainly sideways. Maybe we should consider Rising Falcon being his down air or something?
Someone suggested that. I kinda liked it but idk.
@Thanyou
No omega tempest for the up b. I made my points already above.
If you really want omega tempest, maybe we could make it Lloyd's up tilt?
I think that would be cool.
Zephron
Smash Ace
Normal Tempest would be the Uspecial because almost all of us want to have a controllable Tempest and it works as a great recovery move.
Omega Tempest flies straight up, then back down. Which is what the utilt would do, and simply be a good multihit utilt.
Omega Tempest flies straight up, then back down. Which is what the utilt would do, and simply be a good multihit utilt.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Hey, what about Tiger Blade/Rage for FSmash? I still honestly dislike the idea of that as a FTilt. It feels way too elaborate for a move type that is generally excellent for edgeguarding, poking, or dropping extra damage on opponents near you, effectively hitting them away.
DSmash seems solid as Demonic Circle. I don't think that needs to be changed.
USmash needs some help, but not until we solidify the Specials discussion (aka never at this rate >_>).
A couple of notes though:
USpecial seems set as Tempest.
NSpecial is already DF. Just gotta figure out the rest of the functioning an it looks like we're leaning on a strength charge. However, I'd still suggest that it'll be a fantastic projectile on its own, serving as a good means for punishing failed techs or even following up tech rolls.
DSpecial is leaning towards Rising Falcon either way.
FSpecial is leaning towards Beast.
Keep discussing.
DSmash seems solid as Demonic Circle. I don't think that needs to be changed.
USmash needs some help, but not until we solidify the Specials discussion (aka never at this rate >_>).
A couple of notes though:
USpecial seems set as Tempest.
NSpecial is already DF. Just gotta figure out the rest of the functioning an it looks like we're leaning on a strength charge. However, I'd still suggest that it'll be a fantastic projectile on its own, serving as a good means for punishing failed techs or even following up tech rolls.
DSpecial is leaning towards Rising Falcon either way.
FSpecial is leaning towards Beast.
Keep discussing.
NSpecial is Lightning Thrust. End of discussion.
lolwut
I still think FAir should be Tiger Blade/Tiger Rage. It could spike (lol broken 3-hit combo).
USmash could be... would you take non-canon moves? In ToS, he did have some beta artes that had voice clips but no actual animation (like Maou Engekiha and Distortion Blade).
lolwut
I still think FAir should be Tiger Blade/Tiger Rage. It could spike (lol broken 3-hit combo).
USmash could be... would you take non-canon moves? In ToS, he did have some beta artes that had voice clips but no actual animation (like Maou Engekiha and Distortion Blade).
Junahu
Smash Ace
The easiest place for a Tiger Blade tech would indeed be an aerial. As for a grounded version, perhaps Tiger Blade, or some variant of it at least, could be Up-Smash?
I'm not sure really. There aren't many places you could comfortably fit Tiger Blade in.
I'm not sure really. There aren't many places you could comfortably fit Tiger Blade in.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
See, I suggested Tiger Blade/Rage as a fair and others thought it was strange. I thought it made sense. Plaid suggested it as an FTilt which makes absolutely zero sense.
FTilt could be Sonic Thrust (very plausible).
If no one objects non-canon moves, FSmash could be Maou Engekiha (Infernal Torrent). However, most want a Lloyd that's recognizeable, so FSmash could be Super Sonic Thrust.
For USmash, how about some explosion of angelic power (obviously overdone idea), in a Shining Bind-esque fashion. Seeing as his Exsphere does grant him this ability (albeit only for a few moments).
If no one objects non-canon moves, FSmash could be Maou Engekiha (Infernal Torrent). However, most want a Lloyd that's recognizeable, so FSmash could be Super Sonic Thrust.
For USmash, how about some explosion of angelic power (obviously overdone idea), in a Shining Bind-esque fashion. Seeing as his Exsphere does grant him this ability (albeit only for a few moments).
Zephron
Smash Ace
I'm going to try to clear up the Down B and Forward B discussion.
Both moves go sideways either way. That's why they both work as side B.
Both moves go downwards aerially. That's why they both work as a down B.
Beast stays grounded on the ground, Rising Falcon does not.
Hunting Beast (Beast in air) goes straight down when used.
Rising Falcon always goes at an angle, sideways, whether in the air or not.
We need to decide what's more important: For the moves to work better on the ground, or in the air. Brawl examples go both ways, don't bother offering them.
Plaid argues that it's far more important in the air, because the difference is far greater, and even though Beast works best for Side B as a ground move, Down B is the best place overall.
The other argument says that since Lloyd is mostly a ground based character, most of his moves should work and feel best on the ground, regardless of the goings-on in the air.
If we are tied, or don't really reach a consensus maybe we should consider moving them to different locations entirely because everyone has a different feel as to where this should go.
We want the best Lloyd, amirite?
My vote although both arguments almost have made me neutral at this point, is with Rising Falcon being side B just because Plaid is my best friend and extremely pissed at this argument. Personally I'm just fed up with this. Decide and move on!
Both moves go sideways either way. That's why they both work as side B.
Both moves go downwards aerially. That's why they both work as a down B.
Beast stays grounded on the ground, Rising Falcon does not.
Hunting Beast (Beast in air) goes straight down when used.
Rising Falcon always goes at an angle, sideways, whether in the air or not.
We need to decide what's more important: For the moves to work better on the ground, or in the air. Brawl examples go both ways, don't bother offering them.
Plaid argues that it's far more important in the air, because the difference is far greater, and even though Beast works best for Side B as a ground move, Down B is the best place overall.
The other argument says that since Lloyd is mostly a ground based character, most of his moves should work and feel best on the ground, regardless of the goings-on in the air.
If we are tied, or don't really reach a consensus maybe we should consider moving them to different locations entirely because everyone has a different feel as to where this should go.
We want the best Lloyd, amirite?
My vote although both arguments almost have made me neutral at this point, is with Rising Falcon being side B just because Plaid is my best friend and extremely pissed at this argument. Personally I'm just fed up with this. Decide and move on!
Junahu
Smash Ace
My opinion on this is probably obvious enough. I'd prefer to see Rising Falcon on Down-B rather than Side-B.
Mainly, I'm not comfortable with having a special that changes entirely depending on whether it's used in the air or not. Even Captain Falcon/Ganondorf's, the only examples of Down-B's that change on the ground, have a thematic and movement similarity between the aerial and grounded versions. i.e. they are the same move, just used in different contexts and hence having different outcomes.
We could have Hunting Beast as both the grounded version of Down-B (with a bigger jump into the air than the canonical move), as well as the aerial version of Down-B. I think that would be a fair enough compromise.
Mainly, I'm not comfortable with having a special that changes entirely depending on whether it's used in the air or not. Even Captain Falcon/Ganondorf's, the only examples of Down-B's that change on the ground, have a thematic and movement similarity between the aerial and grounded versions. i.e. they are the same move, just used in different contexts and hence having different outcomes.
We could have Hunting Beast as both the grounded version of Down-B (with a bigger jump into the air than the canonical move), as well as the aerial version of Down-B. I think that would be a fair enough compromise.