TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

[payasofobia]

Then it is not strong enough to do any real damage.

 

[REL38]

Pika can still move though and Ivy's body is more than likely amphibious.

I've yet to use Pika's elecricity since I doubted him having any. Pika doesn't need electricity to win this. Just a few well placed bites to make Ivy bleed to death.

@JOE

You called it too quickly which bothered me a bit. I merely assumed you'd let this go until the afternoon as you do other MU's.

and the only reasonable way of giving off poison is what Adumb's been saying. Anything else just doesn't fly.
Tell ya what, depending on Adumb's response, I'll either drop it or give one last rebuttle to prove Ivy having no form of conventional poison.


@ Current MU

Doesn't Zelda have access to Sheik's mini-sword?

 

[JOE!]

Ivy should have some form of airborne poison...the problem is we have no idea what the hell he is/whats on his back to determine the method, but there are several methods of which he could have an airborne poison...

 

[Romulox2010]

Can wario eat garlic and become warioman in the MU?

 

[payasofobia]

Yes .

 

[JOE!]

Yes .

stop spamming paya

 

[Nova9000]

So how is Zelda/Sheik working? Does she have both of the abilities of the two now?

 

[Emperor Time]

2on1?

Zelda shouldn't be able to switch to Sheik, so I'm guessing both of them are fighting Wario at the same time.

GG, weaponless, solo Wario.

 

[xepherthree]

Well, I kinda assumed they "tagged out", where they dont transform but only one is fighting. I think that wario probably beats zelda(lolnofireballspam) but sheik is still one of the closest thing brawl has to a ninja.

GG wario.

 

[adumbrodeus]

So how is Zelda/Sheik working? Does she have both of the abilities of the two now?

We realized that it was Zelda who had the physical training, and transformations are unrealistic IRL, so we have Zelda (in her Sheik outfit probably, or at least something more comfortable) with any abilities you can attribute to Zelda AND Sheik.

Utilizing nerve endings or the like to "create" a forced ejection doesn't seem to plausible. The ejection of spores is from a chemical/biological reaction. Water is needed for ejection to be present in fungi.

By what you're saying, I'm imagining Ivy using back muscles to "pop a pimple" and create the ejection.

Is this what you're getting at or am I just seeing it wrong :/

Well, it could be a variety of mechanism, getting it to "pop" a spore pimple is one way.


The main point is the actual energy is provided by mechanical force from the muscles.

Alternatively, air pressure.

Next, exactly how are you saying the "spore-ites" will transport the fertilized pollen?
Having a bunch clumped around a pollen is very inconventional, to say the least.
Besides, normal spores are made up of reproductive cells. That's really all it's made out of and is the only reason they're created. Empty spores with nothing in them wouldn't really be spores at all, just . . . nothing really.
I'd imagine "spore-ites" wouldn't be happening if it's lost the main principality behind it which is transporting the new organisms inside of it.

I was more suggesting that they become akin to spores when fertilized.


But also, not necessarily, there's actually a few animals that have evolved modifications to their reproductive organs for defense.

Bees for example, the workers have inoperable reproductive systems, they've lost the "point" in favor of a defensive measure.


Simply having the ability to perform a slightly different process for a defensive measure, especially for an organism that's rather "heavy" like ivysaur (and it's large enough that it would be "heavy") in exchange for a slightly less effective method of reproduction would presumably be an evolutionary advantage.

As to the evolution thing, I'm gonna give my perceptive on how my theory could possibly work.

The "saur" Pokemon come into existence when two Venusaurs get the nasty on. (They still face the same movement limitation Ivy does, but I think movement will be very sluggish, but possible).
A Bulbasaur is birthed, but without its bulb so it's pretty much a weird toad. But said Bulba has a certain skin ability on its back that proves very nourishible to plants to the extent that dirt isn't needed and at the same time attracts insects.
The insects that pollinate Venusaur's plant would drop the fertilized pollen onto the young Bulba to eventually create a bulb and thusly makes a Bulbasaur.

The "saurs" can exist in large groups or packs for protection. The foul stench would ward away predators and welcome insects proving as the food source for the "saurs". The "saurs" age with their plant.

This seems to work imo which can also be an alternative rather than using "spore-ites".

I'd also like to note that Ivy still has a "bulb" on his back which is an underdeveloped flower.
Pollen and such are still being formed and is closed off to allow for development. Only Venusaur would have the ability to reproduce the plant and mate with other Venusaurs.
Ivy would just be a adolescent "saur".

Where's the fertilization in this process?


My major concern with that is it's doubtful that they can actually produce enough bulbasaurs for it to survive without a defense mechanism of some sort.

That, and the bulb would provide no evolutionary advantage, it would just be parasitic and they would actively avoid being "infected", and it certainly wouldn't evolve norishing skin.


This would be most important when the bulbasaur is young, because when it's large, it becomes much more difficult for predators to attack, so they do have holes in their bulb, it's just not in full bloom. That suggests again, that it's there to release something.



I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to be based on their reproductive organs (either having pollen, "spores", or whatever that's used in reproduction and defense OR creates the two separately using a similar mechanism), but that seems to be the most evolutionarily efficient.

The only reason I'm still debating this is cuz JOE moved on quicker than I could get my response in.
Being at college is a limitation to how often I can be on here in the morning, which is when he made a decision. I feel like I was ripped off by not being given time to give my rebuttle so Ima give it now.
Adumb got an exception for the Army vs Mercenary battle so I expect the same.

Unfortunately, we've had that issue before.

See: ZSS vs. Zelda for example, and there were plenty of others.


My "hold open the debate" exception came because I promised an in-depth post about this beforehand, I just took a while to do it.


Believe me man, you're preaching to the choir, I'm sure everyone here has had at least one, "Joe, why'd you close that discussion so quickly" moment?

 

[payasofobia]

You got it all wrong. Sheik/Zelda are basically the same person with the same abilities and physical attributes so we count them as the same character.

It is not a 2vs1 fight.

 

[Nova9000]

Cool. So Zelda has access to her arrows, and Wario is too lethargic to dodge them...but if Wario gets inside, Zelda has no chance regardless of her chain, sword, or anything...gotta think about this for a min...

 

[payasofobia]

Zelda can't use her arrows. And Wario is lazy but he is not a blob of fat. He got muscles.

 

[Nova9000]

I know Wario has muscles but why can't Zelda use arrows? Is it because of the size and strength thing that was brought up last time? If that is the case, then my vote goes to Wario.

 

[payasofobia]

For that same reason.

This is what Zelda needs if she wants to win.

 

[tocador]

This is BS, you cant fertilize something and put poison on it, it would kill the embrion(the "fertilized thingy) making it a useless waste of energy.

And in facts plants dont hunt, so they dont need actually any "weapon" to hunt, so saying she could just shoot it and have poison at will is unrealistic.

Plus, in RL, this dosent exist, poisonous-polen shooting plants, there isnt even poisonous polen, so its not realistic for this to happen.

Ivy sucks.

Edit: Im late again, dam.

 

[tocador]

Double post for different subject:

Wario is too bulky and 2gud. Zelda dont stand a ghost of a chance :D.

@Paya: LoL, stop being mean to new-comers.

@Paya2: I made a test, and asked my skinny 50 kg girlfriend to try to lift 30kg(a long bow strenght required to shoot), and she was able. What you say now paya xP?

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is BS, you cant fertilize something and put poison on it, it would kill the embrion(the "fertilized thingy) making it a useless waste of energy.

And in facts plants dont hunt, so they dont need actually any "weapon" to hunt, so saying she could just shoot it and have poison at will is unrealistic.

Plus, in RL, this dosent exist, poisonous-polen shooting plants, there isnt even poisonous polen, so its not realistic for this to happen.

Ivy sucks.

Edit: Im late again, dam.

So, being poisonous means it will kill itself, right? So how can a WIDE VARIETY OF POISONIOUS ANIMALS AND PLANTS EXIST? Resistance to it's own poisons in at least some form (including a poison sac) is an evolutionary necessity to have poison, therefore if something is poisonous that means that it is in some way resistant to it's own poisons.



It doesn't hunt so it can't shoot poison? Firstly, you don't know that, secondly that's not the only reason that a creature would have tools like that. SELF-DEFENSE, there are plenty of herbivores with powerful defensive measures so they, you know, don't get eaten.



Again, you seem to be failing the basic point of this thread, the fact that it doesn't exist doesn't mean it's impossible for it to exist, and we're dealing with POSSIBILITY, because otherwise anyone not human would automatically be DQ'd.



Seriously, you phail evolution forever.

Zelda can't use her arrows. And Wario is lazy but he is not a blob of fat. He got muscles.

Still no, plenty of people with slighter builds then her are able to lift more then needed to operate a longbow, the average male can benchpress 110 pounds.


Furthermore, you REALLY ignored this, but you don't have to draw a bow the entire way to shoot it, she could just draw it to the limits of her strength.

 

[JOE!]

This is BS, you cant fertilize something and put poison on it, it would kill the embrion(the "fertilized thingy) making it a useless waste of energy.

And in facts plants dont hunt, so they dont need actually any "weapon" to hunt, so saying she could just shoot it and have poison at will is unrealistic.

Plus, in RL, this dosent exist, poisonous-polen shooting plants, there isnt even poisonous polen, so its not realistic for this to happen.

Ivy sucks.

Edit: Im late again, dam.

are there things that breathe fire in nature?


no?


then why did you have no objections to charizard or bowser?

that, and you clearly said you wanted to see pika above Ivy in the rankings....

 

[REL38]

are there things that breathe fire in nature?


no?


then why did you have no objections to charizard or bowser?

that, and you clearly said you wanted to see pika above Ivy in the rankings....

I was the one who said that JOE, not Toc >.>

And Charizard/Bowser having fire is very much plausible. There are just no animals that have that ability atm

@Adumb
Fertlization would come from other Venusaur flowers. They'd be in large clans so fertilization can come from the Venusaurs in the same clan or other clans.

The way they survive would be by staying in numbers. The putrid odor would be more than enough to keep away predators, but invite insects for the Saurs to feast on while pollinating the flowers.

What the Saurs get out of this is protection from predators to make up for their lousy mobility skills. Ivy's traveling alone with death pollen, shot out via spore-ite seems a little farfetched.

Ivy being in a pack of other Saurs with defense offered by the flowers in a manner they already do today seems more plausible to me.

Through some process of evolution, Ivy could have developed a highly nutritious "skin" on his back to attract insects to make up for failing mobility skills. It could also prove nutritious enough to allow a certain species of giant plant to grow on it. From there, Ivy only requires enough mobility to mate so thusly convenient walking is no longer needed.

Shooting out the pollen in some sort of muscle induced ejection could work, but the pollen's weight would have em' travel a mere foot or so away from Ivy.

 

[JOE!]

unless it is a gas or powder he uses for the poison, seperate from the pollen

as for feeding the flower...shouldnt be a problem.

look at the mouth on that sucker, he probably eats all day, plenty of nutrients.

 

[REL38]

A flower only develops so many things. It only has the resources to produce pollen to reproduce and the only lethal or damaging types if pollen are airbourne.

They don't produce gas and much less powder.
Powder is a refined substance.

Ivy can't make it as toads don't do that.

@Current MU

Zelda being able to pull a bow is plausible, even if it's not fully drawn as Adumb said. But would a arrow that's not fully drawn be lethal to Wario?
Only if it hits his neck.

Anywhere else with a half drawn arrow would only go in an inch or so.

 

[JOE!]

is ivy a toad tho?

 

[UncleSam]

Ivy is a monster/plant according to bulbapedia.
btw this new MU confuses me, Zelda AND Sheik, or Zelda OR Sheik.

 

[REL38]

He's based off of a toad.

Yes.

Lizard/Dino doesn't work due to his physical appearance overall.

 

[JOE!]

but what explains the claws, fangs and ears?

as for current MU: Zelda/sheik, not zelda&sheik

they are the same deal as the links: consolidated

 

[REL38]

Stuff to make him more interesting in design.

Lizards don't have such short, wide mouths nor do they have ears.

Same deal with the other Pokemans. They all posses features that go against the animals they're based off of. For example, Squirtles tail. We ignored that feature or we woulda ended up calling him a squirel/turtle hybrid. Something that's not possible.

Ivy's overall appearance is more toad than anything else so he's a toad.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@Current MU

Zelda being able to pull a bow is plausible, even if it's not fully drawn as Adumb said. But would a arrow that's not fully drawn be lethal to Wario?
Only if it hits his neck.

Anywhere else with a half drawn arrow would only go in an inch or so.

Not really, we're talking about a longbow, and the reason why we're even suggesting Zelda might not be able to draw it is because it could have double or more of the draw weight of a modern longbow (aka 60 lbf, as compared to 100 to 185 lbf of older arrows, and far more in some extreme cases).

Arrowheads have extremely small points, and remember, these things were built to penetrate armor.


Broadheads (look at the arrows, they are broadheads) will completely penetrate sheets of plywood about an inch thick given only about 60 lbf, and humans are much less difficult to penetrate then plywood. We can safely assume that if Zelda hits any vital organ, it will penetrate and kill.

And Charizard/Bowser having fire is very much plausible. There are just no animals that have that ability atm

That was his point.

@Adumb
Fertlization would come from other Venusaur flowers. They'd be in large clans so fertilization can come from the Venusaurs in the same clan or other clans.

The way they survive would be by staying in numbers. The putrid odor would be more than enough to keep away predators, but invite insects for the Saurs to feast on while pollinating the flowers.

What the Saurs get out of this is protection from predators to make up for their lousy mobility skills. Ivy's traveling alone with death pollen, shot out via spore-ite seems a little farfetched.

Ivy being in a pack of other Saurs with defense offered by the flowers in a manner they already do today seems more plausible to me.

Through some process of evolution, Ivy could have developed a highly nutritious "skin" on his back to attract insects to make up for failing mobility skills. It could also prove nutritious enough to allow a certain species of giant plant to grow on it. From there, Ivy only requires enough mobility to mate so thusly convenient walking is no longer needed.

Shooting out the pollen in some sort of muscle induced ejection could work, but the pollen's weight would have em' travel a mere foot or so away from Ivy.

I never said they had to be lone, however, it's doubtful creatures that large could survive in such large groups, I was thinking of something more akin to packs when you consider how large and how much energy a fully grown venusaur uses.


A little of column A and a little of Column B seems like a reasonable explanation here, especially since the mean impetus is to allow them as much of their canon abilities as possible given the rules of the real world.

 

[REL38]

Meh, I suppose so.

So I guess Ivy wins anyway.

But what I meant was that the arrow that's fully drawn one will pierce skin and right through vital organs, but with half the force behind by a half drawn arrow will result in less penetration.
Enough to make a deep cut, but not enough to reach vital organs.

 

[tocador]

So, being poisonous means it will kill itself, right? So how can a WIDE VARIETY OF POISONIOUS ANIMALS AND PLANTS EXIST? Resistance to it's own poisons in at least some form (including a poison sac) is an evolutionary necessity to have poison, therefore if something is poisonous that means that it is in some way resistant to it's own poisons.

Being poisonous dosent mean you will kill yourself. But if you want to know, if a frog because of irony of the destiny spills poison at his FERTILIZED EGGS in the water they are going to die.

This is due to a embrion not being "evolved" and being competly vulnerable to everything. So yes, your poison can kill your baby/yourself.

It doesn't hunt so it can't shoot poison? Firstly, you don't know that, secondly that's not the only reason that a creature would have tools like that. SELF-DEFENSE, there are plenty of herbivores with powerful defensive measures so they, you know, don't get eaten.

Plants dont hunt, got that?

I know about self defenses systems, and i know specifically that no plant has a poisonous polen that kill anything attacks it. And yeah, yada yada, i know that he may be like this, but realisticly plants dont do that, really.

Again, you seem to be failing the basic point of this thread, the fact that it doesn't exist doesn't mean it's impossible for it to exist, and we're dealing with POSSIBILITY, because otherwise anyone not human would automatically be DQ'd.

Ok i got this, but the fact is: We still try to make this as realistic as possible, as in: Sonic cant fight because of frail build, and how plants dont have poisonous polen that kill.

Seriously, you phail evolution forever.

Get paya'd.

But yeah, i get your point as how, maybe this would be possible and stuff, but really, i think its pushing too much what you are saying when you cant base ivyssaur in anything we know so far in earth.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Meh, I suppose so.

So I guess Ivy wins anyway.

Wow, politely bowing out of a heated debate with an admission of defeat, mad props man, most people just stop posting.

But what I meant was that the arrow that's fully drawn one will pierce skin and right through vital organs, but with half the force behind by a half drawn arrow will result in less penetration.
Enough to make a deep cut, but not enough to reach vital organs.

No, I understood.

Assuming the bow has a draw weight of 120 lbf, then half-draw is 60 lbf.

60 lbf goes straight through plywood an inch of plywood with a broadhead arrowhead (which is what Zelda has), remember it's intended to go through armored opponents.


So, whether at full-draw or half-draw it's got more then enough penetration to kill if it hits a vital.

 

[tocador]

O yeah, forgot to mention, im not here saying ivy is going to lose, just talking about how mad is for him to have poison spit out of a plant on his back =O.

 

[Phantom7]

Wario can fart, but Zelda can cast magical spells.

...and probably survive a bike.

 

[Skadorski]

Wario can fart, but Zelda can cast magical spells.

...and probably survive a bike.

Real life physi-
HOLY MOTHER OF-
WARIO HAS A BIKE WHY HAVENT WE THOUGH ABOUT THIS!
Unless JOE! didn't give him a bike.
But that's a real-life item.....

 

[UncleSam]

Zelda can't cast spells IRL.
I thought it was obvious. also wario can't just fart at any time.

 

[REL38]

@Adumb
We're both right on some level so I figured we just end it

I try to keep things civil in an arguement which means acknowledging when I'm wrong.

@Holo

Wario can't use his bike as it falls under "vehicle".
Vehicles can't be used.

 

[UncleSam]

If Zelda can use Arrows
Wario>Zelda
if not
Wario>Zelda
Wario<Sheik

Zelda/Sheik wins the majority of Matches here IMO
she's tied w/o because of sheiks ninja'ness

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Wait does Zelda have to stay Zelda at all?

If not, I say Sheik wins since she's a lot faster and if she has Zelda's bow still, Sheik definitely wins. Technically, Sheik should have it.

 

[Jobes]

Wario is a strong guy, but Shiek is... a ninja. Her speed and intellect win her the match.

 

[REL38]

Pretty much what's being said thus far.

It's like two guys going into a fist fight, but one of them brought a knife.

Shelda has weapons (arrow/bow, mini-sword) she can use which is something Wario can't beat.


Edit:
*looks at post count*

Dang it!
I wanted to make my 500th post epic! ~*_*~