Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012

[Varist]

saying you can randomly get hit by the cars on Mute City is like saying you randomly get hit by lava on Brinstar

 

[Gea]

Have visual and audio clues doesn't negate his point about their positioning on the stage, just like how Brinstar isn't exactly the same every time you play the stage. Whether it makes the stage worth banning is entirely subjective, however. I would agree with you that it does not. Though I thought Onett's cars were on a timer?

Non-random obstacle: Randall

 

[Varist]

If I'm playing on Mute City I'm not going to randomly get hit by a car all of a sudden at any point in time from anywhere on the stage. I'm going to get hit by a car if I stand on the track when the platform moves down. That is not random, that's being in a bad position like a ****ing ******

 

[Bones0]

I don't get your point, Varist. I'm all for Mute City, but the cars are not the same every time. Haven't you ever seen them pile up and delay each other? It doesn't happen consistently as far as I know. He isn't referring to where the cars come or when, but how they actually zip by.

If anything is worth mentioning in his post, it's how he doesn't understand how Corneria moves (it does, it sways back and forth). I guess if your point was his reasons are not why the stage is actually banned then I concede your point and it's a fair one. Frootloop has the best explanation, and yeah people were whining about Peach/Jiggs "getting a free win" with Brinstar + Mute.

I did mention the fact that Corneria sways, but I've never heard anyone else cite that as a reason for the stage being banned...


I will agree that I shouldn't have said cars "randomly" hit people. Still, the cars interfere quite a bit the same as every other stage hazard that does damage.

 

[Varist]

The interference is always a good case, but I have to exit this discussion because I believe in KishPrime's old philosophy, that being that "the skills minor random occurences like that test are good skills to have tested."

 

[Gea]

If I'm playing on Mute City I'm not going to randomly get hit by a car all of a sudden at any point in time from anywhere on the stage. I'm going to get hit by a car if I stand on the track when the platform moves down. That is not random, that's being in a bad position like a ****ing ******

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mD_Ql84dco&t=3m40s

There's one section of the stage where you can get hit no matter where you stand (the cars can deflect each other much farther to the sides sometimes than they would normally be). Granted you have to play on the stage for what, two? revolutions of the stage to even see it, but it exists.

And Bones the swaying on Corneria was not seen as an issue compared to the more obvious ones to people that want it banned, like the blastzones, fin, and arwings.

And yes, Kishprime has the best stage philosophy. We've gotten soft.

 

[Bones0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mD_Ql84dco&t=3m40s

And Bones the swaying on Corneria was not seen as an issue compared to the more obvious ones to people that want it banned, like the blastzones, fin, and arwings.

I realize that... that's why I mentioned that I had never heard anyone else comment on it... >_>

 

[Strong Badam]

Mute City is probably my favorite stage

 

[Zodiac]

Seriously, bring back DK64 and RC...there was nothing wrong with them, people just *****ed about them when people used them as proper counter picks. At this rate we'll be down to BF, FD and DL64 as the only stages we ever play on.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

FD and DL will be gone long before YS

 

[KrIsP!]

I dunno man...I heard Europeans were learning to DI into shy guys. The MBR Illuminati had to shut them down for the sake of the stagelist.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Only the europeans are doing that?

 

[Bones0]

I don't see any of the 6 legal stages left going anywhere anytime soon. People have been playing those stages on random for years. All we've ever banned are counterpicks that people abused in tournament. You may think that the bans were in poor taste or completely justified, but when people just don't play on stages, banning them will never be that difficult.

 

[KrIsP!]

No one seems to know what stage replaces FoD in teams. Nuff said.

 

[Bones0]

My ruleset has KJ64 as a neutral instead of PS for teams. I've never heard of anyone using anything other than PS to replace FoD though, so I'm not sure where you claim is coming from.

 

[KrIsP!]

I mean I never see anyone play in kj64 on teams but people want more stages. Not a claim, tiny joke.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Kids say the darndest things

 

[JKJ]

I like Taj's Rule for stage banning
Either ban 1 neutral stage
or ban ALL the counterpicks
then we could add KJ64 and RC and Mute all we F**king wanted and all you'd have to do was ban all counterpicks to avoid an auto-win. This would still leave the loser with the choice of their favorite neutral, though, which I like. Why shouldn't a Peach get either DL or Brinstar? It's a counterpick. Same for Spacies. Why shouldn't they get either Stadium or YS? (or whatever applies to the situation, DL, whatever)
Taj is the best and his word should be law.

 

[Bones0]

There is no reason to distinguish between counterpicks and neutrals. Stop trying to balance the game.

 

[JKJ]

There is no reason to distinguish between counterpicks and neutrals. Stop trying to balance the game.

I don't understand what you mean. Genuinely, I'm not trying to be argumentative.

 

[Bones0]

Why are you separating KJ64 and PS from the other stages? I am presuming that you do so because you believe it tips the game too much into the favor characters that do well on those stages. By making it impossible to select them from game 1, you are artificially changing the balance of the cast, and the decision of which stages are put on which list is entirely based on your opinion of the current metagame. Why is FD any more neutral than KJ64 or PS? If you think every stage provides a fair display of each player's skill level, then creating a separate cp list only serves the purpose of limiting a player's counterpick options. How is the ability to ban multiple stages equivalent in any way to banning a single neutral? That kind of process implies that matches on counterpicks aren't as valuable as markers of skill in the first place.

You need to get rid of the preexisting rules you only ever used because someone else told you to. Why should KJ64 for or PS or Brinstar be separate from FD or BF? What traits make these stages so inherently different that we should allow players to ban multiple counterpicks but only one neutral?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Why are you separating KJ64 and PS from the other stages? I am presuming that you do so because you believe it tips the game too much into the favor characters that do well on those stages. By making it impossible to select them from game 1, you are artificially changing the balance of the cast, and the decision of which stages are put on which list is entirely based on your opinion of the current metagame. Why is FD any more neutral than KJ64 or PS? If you think every stage provides a fair display of each player's skill level, then creating a separate cp list only serves the purpose of limiting a player's counterpick options. How is the ability to ban multiple stages equivalent in any way to banning a single neutral? That kind of process implies that matches on counterpicks aren't as valuable as markers of skill in the first place.

You need to get rid of the preexisting rules you only ever used because someone else told you to. Why should KJ64 for or PS or Brinstar be separate from FD or BF? What traits make these stages so inherently different that we should allow players to ban multiple counterpicks but only one neutral?

dat logic

Still, I feel that Taj's approach to the CP system is more like saying, "Hey, not everyone thinks these stages are legit, but some people do, so we not only allow (via Gentlemen's Clause) but encourage (via Taj's Rule) you to play on them if you so choose." Pretty sure that Taj is personally all for banning those stages, but he's not forcing his opinion onto other people who might not be.

 

[Bones0]

I think it's a great idea in terms of compromise, but if your local community is split amongst allowing those stages and banning them, I would prefer just leaving them all in until a significant majority decides whether to ban them. The whole idea of counterpicks just leads to messy rulesets. Luckily, the community has neutrals as the well-established 5 neutrals we have now, but you can imagine how ridiculous it would get with some TOs including KJ and PS into neutral, some not, and some putting all stages as neutral.

So yeah, overall it's a great compromise, but I think it'd be pretty awful as an official recommended ruleset just because it says to me, "our community's values are split, so we made a custom ruleset just to avoid certain stages being picked as often." I mean, I would much rather attend a tournament with Taj's rule than a tournament with all those stages on the neutral list (because I don't think those stages offer good competition in the first place), but my opinion of stage validity shouldn't have any bearing on how the ruleset actually works, only on whether a stage is legal or not. I think blurring the lines between banned and legal stages lead to more jank in the long run, such as situations where you are virtually gambling if they will pick a counterpick. I find this is an issue in the current ruleset where you're only banning one counterpick, so a ruleset where you ban all the cps is even more appealing to let them take you to your worst neutral.

The last tournament I entered I played a Samus, lost game 1 and won game 2. I had to decide if I should ban Brinstar or ban Dream Land hoping that he didn't think to pick Brinstar. Sure enough, I banned BS and he said something like, "oh wow, I forgot I could pick those stages." Obviously most serious players will keep in mind which stages are legal, but plenty of players won't choose cp stages even if it's in their favor because most people don't practice on those stages.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't think any of the CP stages are that imbalanced, they are simply testing different things. Neutral stages test for "core" mechanics and strategy; CP stages test for the same things but also for other things (such as situational awareness relative to stage change). The reason we choose the neutrals for what they are is because they are the most minimalist and also they have the largest common grouping. If there were 10 stages like RC and Pokefloats, then the argument could be made for that set of stages to be the neutrals.

As such, i don't think its fair to allow one person to ban multiple stages while allowing the other only 1. I don't see much of a difference in terms of "fairness" between FD and RC; they are simply opposite extremes of the same (subjective) scale.

It also would raise a balance issues. Say the match-up was fox vs peach, fox wins game 1. Fox bans FD and gets picked to brinstar and loses. Peach now bans all CP stages, so fox cannot choose rainbow cruise. I don't think I really need to explain why this is unfair...

It could be fun to run this rule at locals, but I don't see it being fair to both players equally and thus wouldn't be acceptable on any large scale.

 

[kiw1]

people still discuss about mute city? guys this stage is ridiculous, its not about the cars or anything its just that certain chars (like puff or peach) are gamebreaking strong on this stage. same goes for brinstar.

the problem with kj64 is that camping is a big problem on this stage, characters with vertical mobility cant be caught by other characters (get a lead with falcon/fox und just run away from puff/peach, its just stupid).

and of course banning is an option, but for bo3 you already kind of need a ban with the 6 stages we have, because !imo! fd + stadium are not neutral enough. at least these stages are getting banned most of the times. for teams: kj64 does not have the big camping problem anymore but still: teams can turn into singles and the big flaw of this stage got a too big impact on the outcome. it may not be that big first and most players oversee it, but people figured it out and thats why it got cut off the stage list

 

[-LzR-]

people still discuss about mute city? guys this stage is ridiculous, its not about the cars or anything its just that certain chars (like puff or peach) are gamebreaking strong on this stage. same goes for brinstar.

I would like it if you explained to me why exactly they break the game on that stage.

 

[kiw1]

...stage design + their recovery + their zoning options + their potential to keep characters offstage which just kills every other character on this stage, nobody can compete them on mute city

 

[-LzR-]

Wow those are some pretty dumb reasons. Care to actually explain how Puff is suddenly unbeatable on that stage? They don't really get any more zoning options there than on other stages. The issue might be the lack of a ledge, but does something like that make Puff really good and why doesn't Puff deserve to have that?

 

[kiw1]

the lack of platforms AND the lack of the edge results into more zoning options which result into the stage combos. while puff can barely forced to hit the ground where the hitboxes are (much like brinstar)

puff + peach doesnt deserve to have this because it changes matchups completely and thats what people try to avoid, allow stages that have to be banned in certain matchups because its broken. the thing is i mained puff for a long time + i play it still in teams and i accept the fact its broken, im not even a person who has to play against it and ******* about it

 

[-LzR-]

So you are saying Puff is also the **** on FD because of the lack of platforms?

 

[kiw1]

how big do i have to wirte the word "AND" so you understand it?

 

[Bones0]

You shouldn't just ban stages because you believe they are good for certain characters. First of all, it's just your opinion, and secondly, your opinion as well as the general consensus might change over time, but it's really hard to reintroduce game elements once they've been banned. And this is coming from someone who thinks Mute City is ban-worthy. I just made my decision based on how elements of the stage interact negatively regardless of what matchup is being played.

 

[kiw1]

well then lets go back to yoshi's island 64 which got banned because fox can outcamp every character on this stage, if we shouldn't do it because of certain characters, the stage is otherwise fine.

btw. the reason mute city got banned was because certain characters are just too good on this stage.

 

[Bones0]

We didn't get rid of Yoshi's Island 64 because Fox was the best on it. We got rid of it because camping the clouds leads to degenerative gameplay where the winner is determined by who picked the character with the best projectile and who gets the lead in the first 10 seconds. That isn't at all comparable to Peach or Jiggs having a stage with favorable features to them. Peach/Puff players lost on MC all the time back when it was legal, and hardly anyone actually took the time to sit down and think about how to beat them on it.

MC got banned because a lot of people have different issues with it as a stage. Obviously some people think certain characters have made it an "unfair" stage, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's why it doesn't get played. Do you really think if all the top tiers were evenly matched on it that we would play it? It got banned because there are cars flying around hitting people, the road arbitrarily saves people based on when they get knocked off, and the lack of a ledge makes edgeguarding pretty ridiculous.

 

[kiw1]

i love how u say im wrong and then describe why fox is so broken on the sage and do the same with mute city and peach + puff

thank you.

and the argument "peach + puff players lost on mc"

armada lost with ylink vs puff on dreamland, so automatically ylink isnt really good against puff or what? sorry but this discussion kinda hurts if the arguments people make, make no sense at all. and before you ask where you wrote down why especially puff + peach are so good on this stage, im happy to quote: "It got banned because there are cars flying around hitting people, the road arbitrarily saves people based on when they get knocked off, and the lack of a ledge makes edgeguarding pretty ridiculous." the road saves puff + peach but never does too much dmg on them because of their character design and they dont need ledges to recover (unlike samus, which would be othwerise as well pretty good here)

im stopping now because i think this wouldn't lead into any productive discussion

 

[Bones0]

i love how u say im wrong and then describe why fox is so broken on the sage and do the same with mute city and peach + puff

thank you.

and the argument "peach + puff players lost on mc"

armada lost with ylink vs puff on dreamland, so automatically ylink isnt really good against puff or what? sorry but this discussion kinda hurts if the arguments people make, make no sense at all. and before you ask where you wrote down why especially puff + peach are so good on this stage, im happy to quote: "It got banned because there are cars flying around hitting people, the road arbitrarily saves people based on when they get knocked off, and the lack of a ledge makes edgeguarding pretty ridiculous." the road saves puff + peach but never does too much dmg on them because of their character design and they dont need ledges to recover (unlike samus, which would be othwerise as well pretty good here)

im stopping now because i think this wouldn't lead into any productive discussion

I described why A BUNCH of characters are broken on YI, not just Fox. If a bunch of characters appear broken, then obviously it's more likely that the stage is broken, isn't it? Well there aren't a bunch of broken characters on MC. And yes, I don't think YL vs. Puff on DL is so good that it should be banned. Do you think we should ban DL because of that matchup? You think Puff and Peach do really good on MC, therefore it should be banned, but then you turn right around and say YL is really good against Puff on DL, so should we ban DL too? No one is saying Puff and Peach aren't good on MC, but there's a huge difference between being good on a stage and a stage making it virtually IMPOSSIBLE to compete on (YI).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

YI isn't really broken if nobody picks a spacie or someone really slow like bowser

 

[Strong Badam]

very few of the stages that were legal in like 2006 but not anymore were banned because of a character's dominance there. they were banned because they either introduced a level of randomness that we do not care for or tested a skillset that we didn't care to test.

 

[Bones0]

YI isn't really broken if nobody picks a spacie or someone really slow like bowser

What? lol Pretty much the whole cast can do dumb stalling on the clouds. Even if neither character has a projectile, the loser is still going to be forced to jump to the far cloud, which means DJing for a lot of the cast as well. Imagine trying to approach a Marth camping the far cloud...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Are you just speculating?

The clouds are actually awful for marth and hes pretty much guaranteed to die out there. He can't abuse any of his good ground attacks (dtilt, fsmash) because you have to stay in the air constantly or else the cloud breaks. The inner cloud gives a lot of characters good vantage to attack him (for example, doc and shiek can just sit there and throw projectiles and laugh as marth dies).

But, like I said, most characters are fine on the stage. Just don't have fox/falco or someone who has completely awful jumps/aerial mobility (like bowser)