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The Best Players.....again

B

Bl@ckChris

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this thread has been different.

pp, m2k, amsah, armada, and hbox have all been in here making their own cases. it's been quite interesting.
 
MacD

MacD

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HugS™ said:
LoL zhu, no one sand bags at locals except for mango.

They just play bad or show up under-prepared. No one wants to lose on purpose, except mango. Lucky isn't an exception. If he does insanely well at a national, it's because he went in prepared. When he does well at a local, it's because he was prepared.

When he does poorly at a national, no one just says "well he sandbagged". So why do we do make that an excuse at locals?

I don't like this distinction you continue to make between locals and nationals. Our locals are nearly national caliber competitions. So if you, or anyone, loses there, it's because you went in unprepared or you were playing awful. There isn't some magic force behind locals that causes you and lucky to do poorly. Lucky loses to fly and macD at locals the same way he can lose to them at a national. You think he really wanted to lose to fly, macD, me?

If it takes a larger stage for one to be motivated enough to prepare, then OK. Locals don't motivate some players enough to prepare, so as a result, they don't do that well at locals. But it's a lack of preparation that causes a ****ty performance, not the fact that it's a local. So when a big name player loses to a lesser known at a local, it's the player's fault for not preparing or playing awful, not the fact that it's a local, that would be silly. If someone got ***** at a local, I promise you they would have gotten ***** at a national if it took place on the same day.

Everyone cares to win even if they don't care to prepare.
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except last tourney lucky went falcon and falco on me...

pretty sure that means he sandbagged me
 
Good Ol' Tree

Good Ol' Tree

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I don't have much of any personal experience in this matter, but based on watching videos and tournaments results, this is my thought.

1. Mango - Recently, he hasn't really lost much. Sure he didn't win Apex 2010, or RoM 3, or DGDTJ, but over the past 3 years his tournament performance has not wavered much at all.

2. Hungrybox - As debatable as it is in my head, this one makes the most sense. HBox beats M2K at almost every tournament he has attended. He has beaten Mango at DGDTJ. He also only lost two times (HERB 3 and RoM 3 as far as I know of) to Dr. PP, over the plenty he has won. He has beaten Armada fairly convincingly at Apex 2010. Lastly he beat Amsah at Pound 4. I feel that HBox's overall record makes him stand as 2nd in my head.

3. Armada - I'm shocked how debatable THIS is. Armada has most definitely shown us his moves at each American tournament he has attended, as well as (don't know much other than the videos I've seen) winning nearly every European tournament he has attended. He beat Mango at Genesis in Winners Finals and coming dangerously close to taking Grand Finals as well. He has yet to lose to M2K at Genesis, Pound 4, or Apex 2010. He beat Dr. PP at Apex 2010. His loss to Amsah at Pound 4 shouldn't exactly hit him hard on his placing because, as he said earlier, it is such a rare occurance. He has however not defeated Hungrybox which is why I don't think he should be placed superior to him just yet.

4. Mew2King - M2K has been playing for ages now. He was fairly undefeatable for a long time until Mango came out and stole his crown. Since then more and more players -- in fact, the three players that I have listed above him -- have beat him. He hasn't claimed a victorious placing at ANY of the multi-coast/national tournaments since 2009 (and not forgetting his already stated loss to Mango). I just feel that over the past 2 years, M2K hasn't proved himself to be higher, but is still a damn amazing player who will wreck your **** up.

5. Dr. PP - Now we have our rising star, Dr. PP. He sort of reminds me of the "Mango of old", for he has consistently improved from a large number of tournaments that he has attended. He has beaten players such as Lambchops, Zhu, Lucky, Kage, and plenty of others. The reason I place him down here is only because of the fact he is, for now, just rising. Yes, he has beaten Hungrybox, M2K, and Mango, but only a select few times. I am not saying that Dr. PP is not good enough to be higher, he just hasn't been placing high or beating high players for an extended period of time.

To me it seems like the Melee community is experiencing a great change in it's metagame and it's player placing. Melee, right now, is at too fragile of a point to truly decide who is ranked supreme: the introduction of Europe, the rise of Dr. PP, Mango's recent fall, Hungrybox slipping up, and M2K being M2K. And definitely will need the results of the next few major tournaments to decide who truly is the best.

My really long two cents.
 
Dr Peepee

Dr Peepee

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Mew2King said:
honestly ive just been pissed since mlg ended so im just pissed about everything ignore me
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I got you M2K. Hope you feel better man. =)

Nihonjin said:
Sorry..? I have out placed you at the only tournament we've been together, beat the person that kicked you out of the tournament and I have a better tourney record..

I'm not saying anything, just saying..:redface:
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<3 Amsah

TLink_King said:
Lol I think the PP>M2k argument is kinda different from the Amsah>M2k one. M2k beat the guy who sent PP to losers at rom 3, and lost the tournament by like one match, and this is like the only time he's been beaten by him. Not enough to change ranks yet I think, even if PP's control in the matches makes it look like he'll be placed above m2k soon.
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I beat that guy too....

I also won one set by more than one game.

Not the best argument to me. Anyway, I'm cool with waiting until I play M2K at least another time before anyone says I'm over him. I'm more interested in how that goes than whether I'm told I'm rankd above him at this point anyway.
 
Amide

Amide

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Dr Peepee said:
I beat that guy too....

I also won one set by more than one game.

Not the best argument to me. Anyway, I'm cool with waiting until I play M2K at least another time before anyone says I'm over him. I'm more interested in how that goes than whether I'm told I'm rankd above him at this point anyway.
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Oopps my bad.

Anyways, here's hoping m2k ends up going to pound 5 :)
 
JPOBS

JPOBS

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GREENTHUMB said:
zhu has been losing it recently, he ain't as raw as he used to be. maybe he is just rusty or it's a mindset problem.
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hmm...define "recently"

idk, 7th at apex and 3rd at DGDTJ seem to contradict whatever the **** you're trying to say...
 
B

Bl@ckChris

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it was the first thing i thought when i saw his name.

i had always wondered how he came up with it.

edit: i'm still curious, but not enough so to ask. just curious enough to wonder.
 
Diakonos

Diakonos

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I think we should make a distinction between calling Mango the best player and the most talented player.

It is hard for me to say someone is the best unless it's shown empirically -- especially in tournaments.

I don't think anyone denies that Mango is very talented.
 
N

Nihonjin

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Diakonos said:
I think we should make a distinction between calling Mango the best player and the most talented player.
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I think we should call it how it is.

It is hard for me to say someone is the best unless it's shown empirically -- especially in tournaments.
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Then it's hard for you to accept the truth.

I don't think anyone denies that Mango is very talented.
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Because that would be about as stupid as denying he's the best.
 
Diakonos

Diakonos

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Nihonjin said:
I think we should call it how it is.



Then it's hard for you to accept the truth.



Because that would be about as stupid as denying he's the best.
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It's fine that you don't think we should make a distinction. I'm wondering whether you're willing to give a reason for your belief -- that's what I tried to do.

Discussion is more than saying that someone else doesn't accept the truth. Are you the arbiter of truth? I am not denying anyone's talent. Your response makes me wonder whether you put any thought into what I was saying, or whether you just like to feel big by making such posts.

I'll lay it out mechanistically.
____________

(1) Someone ought to be deemed "the best" only when s/he performs well when "it matters".

(2) It matters in tournaments, and perhaps (big) money matches.

(3) Mango has not performed very well in the last few singles tournaments. He has done very well in doubles. However, I do not think doubles is the major criterion most people have in mind when they ask themselves who the best is.

Those are my assumptions, and I think you have a problem with (1) and (2).

Now, I believe "talent" can be deemed in other scenarios as well-- late night smashfests/friendlies after tournament/matches when you're not drunk. For this reason I can say Mango is the most talented player at this time.

I'm not denying that talent/"bestness" are unrelated. I'm saying that we should make our terms explicit. And by these terms, Mango is the most talented but I wouldn't say it's fair to call him the best.
 
choknater

choknater

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lols. these debates are at a slightly higher level than the pc/kdj/m2k/ken/isai/azen debates as far as actual debating goes
 
N

Nihonjin

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Diakonos said:
Discussion is more than saying that someone else doesn't accept the truth. Are you the arbiter of truth? I am not denying anyone's talent. Your response makes me wonder whether you put any thought into what I was saying, or whether you just like to feel big by making such posts.
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Feeling big by admitting inferiority to someone? Right, no.

I'll lay it out mechanistically.
____________

(1) Someone ought to be deemed "the best" only when s/he performs well when "it matters".
Click to expand...
Or when that person is clearly better than everyone else.

(2) It matters in tournaments, and perhaps (big) money matches.
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The reason tournaments matter is because they motivate people to try their best instead of sandbag, so they're an accurate way to measure someone's abilities. Sadly, this does not go for Mango because he refuses to try like the troll he is.

I wouldn't say it's fair to call him the best.
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best (bst)
-. Surpassing all others in excellence, achievement, or quality; most excellent: the best performer; the best grade of ore.
-. Most highly skilled: the best doctor in town.
-. One that surpasses all others

Pretty sure that makes Mango the best.



Out of curiosity, have you ever played Mango yourself..?
 
Diakonos

Diakonos

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There's too much sarcasm and hostility in your approach to discussion, Amsah. I find it fruitless to continue.

I have only ever played those two matches against mangos in singles.

He was the first friendlies I played against as I entered the venue.
 
DAS

DAS

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This a really serious topic isn't it? It shouldn't matter whoever is the best is the best.
 
Merkuri

Merkuri

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Nihonjin said:
Feeling big by admitting inferiority to someone? Right, no.



Or when that person is clearly better than everyone else.



The reason tournaments matter is because they motivate people to try their best instead of sandbag, so they're an accurate way to measure someone's abilities. Sadly, this does not go for Mango because he refuses to try like the troll he is.



best (bst)
-. Surpassing all others in excellence, achievement, or quality; most excellent: the best performer; the best grade of ore.
-. Most highly skilled: the best doctor in town.
-. One that surpasses all others

Pretty sure that makes Mango the best.



Out of curiosity, have you ever played Mango yourself..?
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You say he's clearly and I'd like to ask what makes it so clear? Lately it appears he can only perform his best in friendlies, yet being able to perform well under pressure is a factor in who is and is not the best. Mango actually tried at his last major tournament and yet Hungrybox beat him.
 
Riddle

Riddle

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Merkuri said:
You say he's clearly and I'd like to ask what makes it so clear? Lately it appears he can only perform his best in friendlies, yet being able to perform well under pressure is a factor in who is and is not the best. Mango actually tried at his last major tournament and yet Hungrybox beat him.
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He can only perform his best in friendlies because thats the only time he tries. Mango clearly has the ability to perform well under pressure since he's demonstrated it both in past singles tournies and in recent doubles tournies.

I find it HIGHLY doubtful that Mango actually tried at his last major tournament. Going Fox because the crowd was calling for it =/= trying.

Sorry, nice try, Mango's the best.
 
choknater

choknater

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lol

we saw it live son

mango jumped all the way off the stage to hit hbox with a stupid move and lost his last stock for it

thats not mango trying, its him trying to cheese cuz he doesnt care
 
N

Nihonjin

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Diakonos said:
There's too much sarcasm and hostility in your approach to discussion, Amsah. I find it fruitless to continue.
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What Sarcasm? I just find it ridiculous that people doubt Mango's the best player in the world, when last time I checked the 15 people (if not more) after him unanimously agree he is.

You can argue all you want saying he has to prove it when it matters, but he already has already, apparently not in the way you want him to, but that doesn't change the fact that none of the people you want to place above him think they're actually better than he is.

Hostility? Not really.

Merkuri said:
You say he's clearly and I'd like to ask what makes it so clear?
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Nothing that would make sense to you or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Lately it appears he can only perform his best in friendlies, yet being able to perform well under pressure is a factor in who is and is not the best. Mango actually tried at his last major tournament and yet Hungrybox beat him.
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Right, Mango can't perform well under pressure. Come on man, really?
 
B

Bl@ckChris

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hmm if mango hadn't already ***** every tourney for like a year and change straight, this would be an interesting discussion. Like if the only way he had ever proved himself was through beating everyone in friendlies when he tried, then it would be like "hmm maybe he's the most talented, but he can't seem to do it in tourney so who cares"

but...he has proven himself....so he's the best. lol.
 
Beat!

Beat!

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Would you guys just listen to Amsah.

I mean, ALL the other top players say Mango is the best. Shouldn't they know what they're talking about?
 
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