The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[Alopex]

Well, like I said in the chat, Shanus. We need to verify that he can do that for other aerials. Just the Uair isn't really saying much about him being able to double aerial, just double Uairing. The Bair is the best baseline here, since it's his medium aerial. If he can double that, then it's all good.
I'll try testing it out despite the fact that I never use Falcon.

Also, I want to know why Jigglypuff's FH is exactly double her SH. It's extremely low. So low that Jiggs doesn't even need to bother with SHing to hit low while everyone else does. Jiggs, like everyone else, shouldn't be able to hit grounded opponents with FH aerials. I mean, the SH is there for a reason. I say we keep Jigg's FH fairly low, but much higher than what it currently is. I'm thinking we bring it up so that it's triple the SH height or maybe 3.5x. Her current 2xSH FH height is just too low.

 

[kupo15]

Give this a try guys:

2F46096D 146D2260
FF400000 00000000

Falcon 85%
Ike 75%
Ganon 85%
Sonic 55%
Everyone 50%

 

[Revven]

Wait, so is momentum totally complete? Or are going for what Blank suggested before it's 100% completed?

 

[shanus]

Wait, so is momentum totally complete? Or are going for what Blank suggested before it's 100% completed?

We are trying to use lower momentum becaue crazy high momentum just isnt, well, right. It'll be a while till we have the right values, so yeah.

 

[ph00tbag]

Still getting black rumble on match end by holding down when the match ends. I suspect any held input will cause this.

 

[trojanpooh]

I wonder if thats really the problem. Strange. Anyone in charge of making these codes understand why this happens?

 

[Eaode]

one small thing that is buggin me about Beta 3.2: Squirtle

Squirtle is one of my Brawl+ mains, and in the plusery set he just doesn't feel right. he's too floaty on the way up, and he falls to fast on the way down. I say lower his downwards gravity and raise his overall gravity slightly.

 

[Almas]

Thanks for the input, Eaode.

I'd recommend that any discussion regarding momentum is moved to the code agenda thread. The code is still glitchy and incomplete, so not currently being considered for proper use in the Plusery codeset.

 

[trojanpooh]

In my opinion, Squirtle should be one of the super fast characters like Shiek Falcon Fox etc.

 

[Alopex]

Just finished doing Double Aerial C. Falcon tests. Conclusion: Falcon could stand to fall slower.

He can get out two Uairs from a FH, but almost doesn't make it. You need pinpoint timing in order to get it out in time, and even then it'll never be complete, with only the frontal hitbox coming out.

As for Bair, he can just BARELY almost pull out a second one. I mean, the animation starts, but it didn't seem like the hitbox comes out in time.

If we decrease Falcon's Dgrav a bit, he should be able to comfortably pull off two Uairs and mostly pull off two Bairs. I think that's needed because he already has a limited ground approach. FH double aerials won't change his approach game that much, but it will be nice to have.

Make him fall slower, but keep his high FF speed.

I'm going to play around with this and see if I get something that feels just about right. Meanwhile, kupo, I'll test out your value and see how they stack up.

And I agree with Eaode and trojan. Squirtle has a lot of potential and he's just not at the level he should be yet.

 

[kupo15]

Alopex, I'm liking the first 1, the 1.075 one but I'm interested to see what you think
091ACC70

 

[Beo]

soooooo, is that a Buff for Bowser on his grab releases?

 

[Eaode]

soooooo, is that a Buff for Bowser on his grab releases?

its a slight nerf, you have to have pretty good timing to follow up a grab release

 

[Alopex]

It allows Bowser to have grab release follow-ups but no chain grabs.

 

[shanus]

Just finished doing Double Aerial C. Falcon tests. Conclusion: Falcon could stand to fall slower.

He can get out two Uairs from a FH, but almost doesn't make it. You need pinpoint timing in order to get it out in time, and even then it'll never be complete, with only the frontal hitbox coming out.

As for Bair, he can just BARELY almost pull out a second one. I mean, the animation starts, but it didn't seem like the hitbox comes out in time.

If we decrease Falcon's Dgrav a bit, he should be able to comfortably pull off two Uairs and mostly pull off two Bairs. I think that's needed because he already has a limited ground approach. FH double aerials won't change his approach game that much, but it will be nice to have.

Make him fall slower, but keep his high FF speed.

I'm going to play around with this and see if I get something that feels just about right. Meanwhile, kupo, I'll test out your value and see how they stack up.

And I agree with Eaode and trojan. Squirtle has a lot of potential and he's just not at the level he should be yet.

ty for inputs, definitely worth looking into

 

[Alopex]

Shanus... I have some more input you should see. I'll PM it to you.

 

[Swordplay]

I think the buffer modifier is gay. Just sayin. Playing without it is so much better. It's more balanced in terms of offense and defense.

 

[Adapt]

I think the buffer modifier is gay. Just sayin. Playing without it is so much better. It's more balanced in terms of offense and defense.

I agree that a 1 frame buffer window is far too small. I would prefer to use more, but I seem to recall a problem with making a longer frame window for some reason.

What is the original buffer frame window in normal brawl?

 

[goodoldganon]

I think the buffer modifier is gay. Just sayin. Playing without it is so much better. It's more balanced in terms of offense and defense.

I don't get it either. It seems to just be an artificial barrier to overcome for newcomers.


@Adapt: 10 frames

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

The buffer mod means less attempted dsmashes canceling into dairs. So that's great for me.



Also, I think Squirtle needs to stay where he is. He's really good.

Honestly, I think the Trainer is a bit too good. All 3 pokemon are incredible, and with no stamina he is effectively impossible to counter pick.

If you don't like how your current pokemon is stacking up against your opponent, throw him off the stage and switch. Worst that could happen is you eat a free uncharged smash.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm having a lot of trouble finding any holes in the Trainer's game.

 

[Alopex]

Huge buffer window is fairly lame. And the reasons for it have been covered many times.

I'll detail a couple:
- Crouch after FF.
- Buffer-induced deaths near the edge.

Only thing that lower buffer really damages is Bowser's infinite klaw jump. From a technical standpoint, buffer settings that aren't 0,1, or 10 are glitched.

1 buffer preserves just about everything, makes movements more precise since you don't have a 10 frame queue to worry about, and removes the drawbacks of longer buffers.

throw him off the stage and switch. Worst that could happen is you eat a free uncharged smash.

Unlike Zelda/Sheik, the PT does not maintain invincibility frames while transforming after death. In fact, if you try to press DownB while you have those invincibility frames, nothing will happen until those frames are gone.
So not only will you have thrown away a stock, but you'll eat a charged smash.
It's impossible to change Pokemon unless you're doing well, because Brawl+ is so fast that the only time you'll get a DownB in without punishment is when you've knocked your opponent out.
The PT isn't broken. He's no harder to counterpick than Zelda/Sheik are, and no one complains about them despite their vastly superior transformation options.

 

[Adapt]

I understand what you are talking about with the d-smash>dair problem... I use ZSS and it means an automatic stock loss for me. Still, a 1 frame buffer is far too short. 4-5 frames of buffering would be ideal... who chose the particular value being used and why isn't it higher?

EDIT: thx alopex... I agree that 10 frames is too long, but I think the buffer code should be looked at again to see about trying out some other values.

 

[Finns7]

its glitchy at higher lvls so 1 and 0 are used by some, I dont use buffer

 

[Eaode]

just because PT seems good doesn't mean we shouldn't optimize squirtle's gravity. it's not a balance issue its a physics issue, and I thought the goal was to make all the character physics suit the character. and right now squirtle's aren't right.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Unlike Zelda/Sheik, the PT does not maintain invincibility frames while transforming after death. In fact, if you try to press DownB while you have those invincibility frames, nothing will happen until those frames are gone.
So not only will you have thrown away a stock, but you'll eat a charged smash.
It's impossible to change Pokemon unless you're doing well, because Brawl+ is so fast that the only time you'll get a DownB in without punishment is when you've knocked your opponent out.
The PT isn't broken. He's no harder to counterpick than Zelda/Sheik are, and no one complains about them despite their vastly superior transformation options.

I know this.

However, it's not very hard to get your opponent offstage, and switch while they recover. Especially with Squirtle or Charizard. You shouldn't get hit, much less killed unless you switch at an awful time.

Zelda and Sheik share enough similarities that they can be counterpicked relatively easy, and between them they don't cover many of their weak spots.

The Trainer's Pokemon are 3 entirely different characters. None of them lack kill moves, and none of them lack decent combos, and between them they lack a defining weakness to make them counterpickable.


@Eaode:
I actually love his gravity. Just enough height to get a dair off and let it autocancel, and fast enough on the way down to chain fairs. With no decay, those are evil.



I'm outvoted here, so I won't make any more arguments towards not changing it. Just throwing my opinion out there.

 

[Swordplay]

Link and toon link loose A LOT of their arrow cancel tricks with the buffer modifier. It really hurts their defensive game.

There are also other characters whose defensive game is hurt by the modifier. I don't want to completely blow off defense of offense. That would piss me off.

 

[cooler1339]

samus vs pit froze after pit won with the current set.

Nvm its just freezing randomly after a lot of matches. Something wrong?

 

[B.W.]

Link and toon link loose A LOT of their arrow cancel tricks with the buffer modifier. It really hurts their defensive game.

There are also other characters whose defensive game is hurt by the modifier. I don't want to completely blow off defense of offense. That would piss me off.

Link and Toon Link don't really need a bigger defensive game. I don't know how badly other characters might be effected, but these two don't need it, T. Link in particular.

If done correctly, they can control the whole god **** field with proper use of their projectiles and their melee attacks even without arrow cancel.

 

[Alopex]

I know this.

However, it's not very hard to get your opponent offstage, and switch while they recover. Especially with Squirtle or Charizard. You shouldn't get hit, much less killed unless you switch at an awful time.

Zelda and Sheik share enough similarities that they can be counterpicked relatively easy, and between them they don't cover many of their weak spots.

The Trainer's Pokemon are 3 entirely different characters. None of them lack kill moves, and none of them lack decent combos, and between them they lack a defining weakness to make them counterpickable.


@Eaode:
I actually love his gravity. Just enough height to get a dair off and let it autocancel, and fast enough on the way down to chain fairs. With no decay, those are evil.



I'm outvoted here, so I won't make any more arguments towards not changing it. Just throwing my opinion out there.

All of the three Pokemon lack range.
All of the three Pokemon have very predictable and gimpable recovery paths.
None of the three Pokemon have very good projectiles and can thus be camped.

Marth would be a safe counter-pick against all three. As would Meta Knight. And you'd also be well enough with Zelda. You could also use Pit, who can outrange them, gimp them, and camp them with extreme ease.

If you ask me, Zelda and Sheik cover themselves pretty well. Whatever Sheik lacks, Zelda has, and vice versa. Power vs Combo. Floaty vs Fast Faller. Range vs Speed. I don't think it's that easy to counterpick them. They have more differences than similarities.
In fact, the only ideal counterpick to both that I can think of is Marth. Though you could do well with Pit too.

I mean, transforming characters are meant to be tricky opponents because their ability to transform will only properly be used by those who actually invest the time in both characters. That's double or triple the work if you want to make full use of more than one character.
And if you don't, then you have yourself 5 characters that lack a DownB.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

All of the three Pokemon lack range.
All of the three Pokemon have very predictable and gimpable recovery paths.
None of the three Pokemon have very good projectiles and can thus be camped.

Marth would be a safe counter-pick against all three. As would Meta Knight. And you'd also be well enough with Zelda. You could also use Pit, who can outrange them, gimp them, and camp them with extreme ease.

If you ask me, Zelda and Sheik cover themselves pretty well. Whatever Sheik lacks, Zelda has, and vice versa. Power vs Combo. Floaty vs Fast Faller. Range vs Speed. I don't think it's that easy to counterpick them. They have more differences than similarities.
In fact, the only ideal counterpick to both that I can think of is Marth. Though you could do well with Pit too.

I mean, transforming characters are meant to be tricky opponents because their ability to transform will only properly be used by those who actually invest the time in both characters. That's double or triple the work if you want to make full use of more than one character.
And if you don't, then you have yourself 5 characters that lack a DownB.

Ivysaur disagrees. Bair, dtilt, ftilt, and fsmash all have very decent range. I believe Ivy's bair can out-range Marth's fair, but I'm not incredibly sure on that.

You have me here.

Razor Leaf works well enough, and Squirtle's pretty hard to camp anyway.

Metaknight and Marth are probably safe picks. Zelda would be safe against Charizard, but I'm not so sure about the other two. Pit, I'm not too sure about. He could gimp them, but he's not the hardest recovery to destroy either.

Point made, I suppose. I guess I jumped the gun a bit. My bad.

 

[Alopex]

Well, Ivysaurs tilt and Fsmash range never broke her in vBrawl, and they won't do that here because those are not her combo moves. Utilt is her combo starter and that one has terrible range. Strategies that worked against Ivy's ground game in vBrawl will still work here, and there were a lot of strategies.

The only thing Ivysaur really gained in Brawl+ was faster aerials and unlimited stamina. Considering how terrible Ivy was in vBrawl, the improved aerials were a needed buff. If it turns out that they're TOO fast, we'll look at it again. But as it stands, we don't think her improved air game makes her a sudden powerhouse.

Remember, she's kind of like Olimar. A fairly strong stage game with a piss poor recovery. Abuse that.
All 4 of the characters I listed above have excellent edge-guarding tools.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

I just thought about something, how about Modifying Samus' Gravity? She's so floaty, she feels very unnatural...

 

[matt4300]

I just thought about something, how about Modifying Samus' Gravity? She's so floaty, she feels very unnatural...

I and many others will disagree with ya. With this latest update she feels completely perfect. At least to me. I guess she could stand to have alitte more upgravity to make her jumps faster, so she can sh and fh missles more smoothly.. but reallly she doesn't need it.

 

[Eaode]

I agree that Samus is so floaty she isn't fun anymore (to me). I know she's supposed to be floaty but this is like vBrawl Samus or worse >_>


but I don't main Samus so idk if you want to take this sentiment seriously

 

[zxeon]

I love how floaty Samus is. It's so much fun abusing other characters offstage but it sucks decending from high altitude fastfalling is a must.

 

[trojanpooh]

just because PT seems good doesn't mean we shouldn't optimize squirtle's gravity. it's not a balance issue its a physics issue, and I thought the goal was to make all the character physics suit the character. and right now squirtle's aren't right.

This. We shouldn't be using gravity as a method of nerf/buff. We should make the character feel as natural as possible, then nerf/buff their moves as needed.

 

[Bowser King]

I liked the old bowser better

-Bowser King

 

[trojanpooh]

I liked the old bowser better

-Bowser King

Care to elaborate? If your not specific, you're much less likely to get your way.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

Which frame exactly is frame 20 of Ganon's side B ? The move does feel faster overall but I can't really tell when the acceleration occurs. Is it when the dash starts, right after he pulls out his hand ? Or during the choke itself, so you get more advantage afterwards ?

 

[Adetque]

Why did you decrease the buffer for Brawl+? We're all used to the 10 frame buffer, and the new buffer just messes up timing of moves. It interferes with combos that I like doing, such as Diddy's dash attack to spike and G&W's down throw to down smash, and it's extremely annoying when I die because I'm used to buffering up-b.

Also, why no autosweetspot ledges? It just gives an advantage to the high tiers that are great at gimping/don't need to use the ledge much like MK, Snake, ROB, and DDD. Also, it's extremely hard to recover with Diddy, Ness, and Lucas without getting a smash to the face and sent off stage again. Edgeguarding with F-smash is actually reliable

Love Brawl+ so far. Hope it becomes usable in tournies.