Roxaslawliet
Smash Apprentice
thanks for this awesome guide, I will try and remember this.
-
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The C-Stick Compendium - A Comprehensive Guide
- Thread starter Taymond
- Start date
zxcZ
Smash Cadet
I refuse to use the c-stick, back in the day when I was in middle school melee just came out. I loved the first Smash but I sucked (I was 7) and when I got melee I learned the c-stick can produce strong moves (I was unaware that you could do them with A lol). My brother who is a lot older then me and understood how to play the game would always tell me to stop spamming the c-stick so I did and ever since then i just can use it. Like a vampire around holy water.
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
I, uh.. don't think you can do that, Draquoir. I'd also like to request you use a different term to refer to Recoil/Retreating Specials.
Because a Falcon Punch has its own innate property for the input that would normally produce a B-Reversal, you can't exactly "Recoil Special" a Falcon Punch. No reverse momentum gets applied, since the Falcon Punch's own mechanic overrides the B-Reversal, so it's not exactly.. retreating/recoiling in any way. But you are, of course, right that attempting to do so results in a different, very helpful result: an automatic Reverse Falcon Punch. I assumed the Falcon board was already aware of this, though to be honest I don't know for sure.
Good point, either way.
Because a Falcon Punch has its own innate property for the input that would normally produce a B-Reversal, you can't exactly "Recoil Special" a Falcon Punch. No reverse momentum gets applied, since the Falcon Punch's own mechanic overrides the B-Reversal, so it's not exactly.. retreating/recoiling in any way. But you are, of course, right that attempting to do so results in a different, very helpful result: an automatic Reverse Falcon Punch. I assumed the Falcon board was already aware of this, though to be honest I don't know for sure.
Good point, either way.
Hey hey, good catch MysticKenji. 
Some more peculiar things I've noticed:
JUMPING: while holding the c-stick (in any configuration), you CAN'T use the analogue stick to jump. In the tilt/special/jump configurations, you can't even use a button to jump (though you can in the smash/grab/shield configurations).
While wall clinging, the c-stick also does wierd stuff. You can do a:
-Regular Walljump by hitting the analogue away. The c-stick can't do this.
-Gimped walljump that looks like a walljump but takes away your double jump by pressing the analogue up and away or away+the jump button. In smash and special configurations, you can do this by hitting the c-stick up and away.
-Doublejump (even if you've already doublejumped) by hitting the analogue up or pressing X. In the smash-stick configuration, hit the c-stick up or up-back. In the special configuration, hitting the c-stick any direction will do this. BUT, if you SMASH the c-stick down or away, you'll let go of the wall and do a fB/dB. This is one more example of the special-stick being pressure-sensitive.
And I'm now pretty sure that whether the c-stick makes you jump (in tilt/special configuration) is determined by how early in the buffer window the c-stick is pressed. Hitting the c-stick at the earliest point seems to cause a jump. It also seems related to how recently the c-stick was released... for example, just hold the cstick down (till you finish your attack and return to standing position), then move it to up, and you'll always jump. I believe this might be related to why holding the c-stick impedes (or totally prevents) jumping. Another bizzare (and possibly related) observation about c-stick jumps is that pressing the c-stick (set to tilts or specials) in slow-mo causes jumping extremely frequently, for reasons I can't explain.
Stuff while shielding:
One more example of the strange ways that the c-stick, the analogue stick, and buffering interact can be seen when you hold shield and left on the analogue stick, and mash the c-stick right. This will cause you to do a variety of things, like roll right, roll left, grab, do the c-stick's action (like a right fsmash, ftilt, or fB), or jump (in tilt/special mode), all depending on some very complicated timing, your c-stick configuration, and what button you shield with.
Generally, if you wait till your shield goes up then hit the c-stick, you'll dodge in the c-stick's direction (if your configuration supports c-stick dodges). However, if you buffer the c-stick, you'll usually dodge in the direction the analogue's being held. I think it might be because of some kind of buffer overflow... so when you release the c-stick, the game reads what direction the analogue's being held as a press of the analogue (though you didn't press it, you were just holding it), and puts that press of the analogue in the buffer.
Also, though you can analogue-dodge to either side and downwrad this way, holding up and mashing the c-stick won't make you jump, even though it will with the c-stick set to tilts or specials. This probably has to do with the special jump properties of those configurations.
The c-stick (set to smashes) can grab by pressing it at the same time you shield (just before, actually), or while shielding by pressing it up or in the same direction the analogue's being held. So if you shield, hold the analogue stick in one direction and mash the c-stick in another, you'll grab if you hit the c-stick at the same time your shield comes up. With both sticks the same direction, you'll always grab. With the c-stick up and the analogue another way, you'll grab if you press the c-stick after the buffer window ends.
If you hold Z to shield, you can't c-stick grab. Pressing the c-stick left or right when a dodge ends (which would make you grab if you were shielding with L) can produce a side-smash (though I can't do down or up smashes this way).
When you set the c-stick to specials, things work similarly, but when you hit the c-stick the same way you're holding the analogue, you jump instead of grab. The regular rules affecting buffering and c-stick jumps also still seem to apply. Hitting the c-stick right when your shield comes back up (with the timing that would make you grab were the c-stick set to smashes) makes you do the corresponding special. Also, it seems how hard you push the c-stick in relation to the analogue can determine whether you dodge in the analogue's direction or the c-stick's direction. Nudging the c-stick while shielding makes you jump; if the analogue is held completely the other way, you dodge the analogue's direction; if the analogue is held lightly, you do an air controlled jump in that direction; if the analogue's held forward, you jump forward.
deeeeeerp I am confuse (ºдಠ)
Some more peculiar things I've noticed:
JUMPING: while holding the c-stick (in any configuration), you CAN'T use the analogue stick to jump. In the tilt/special/jump configurations, you can't even use a button to jump (though you can in the smash/grab/shield configurations).
While wall clinging, the c-stick also does wierd stuff. You can do a:
-Regular Walljump by hitting the analogue away. The c-stick can't do this.
-Gimped walljump that looks like a walljump but takes away your double jump by pressing the analogue up and away or away+the jump button. In smash and special configurations, you can do this by hitting the c-stick up and away.
-Doublejump (even if you've already doublejumped) by hitting the analogue up or pressing X. In the smash-stick configuration, hit the c-stick up or up-back. In the special configuration, hitting the c-stick any direction will do this. BUT, if you SMASH the c-stick down or away, you'll let go of the wall and do a fB/dB. This is one more example of the special-stick being pressure-sensitive.
And I'm now pretty sure that whether the c-stick makes you jump (in tilt/special configuration) is determined by how early in the buffer window the c-stick is pressed. Hitting the c-stick at the earliest point seems to cause a jump. It also seems related to how recently the c-stick was released... for example, just hold the cstick down (till you finish your attack and return to standing position), then move it to up, and you'll always jump. I believe this might be related to why holding the c-stick impedes (or totally prevents) jumping. Another bizzare (and possibly related) observation about c-stick jumps is that pressing the c-stick (set to tilts or specials) in slow-mo causes jumping extremely frequently, for reasons I can't explain.
Stuff while shielding:
One more example of the strange ways that the c-stick, the analogue stick, and buffering interact can be seen when you hold shield and left on the analogue stick, and mash the c-stick right. This will cause you to do a variety of things, like roll right, roll left, grab, do the c-stick's action (like a right fsmash, ftilt, or fB), or jump (in tilt/special mode), all depending on some very complicated timing, your c-stick configuration, and what button you shield with.
Generally, if you wait till your shield goes up then hit the c-stick, you'll dodge in the c-stick's direction (if your configuration supports c-stick dodges). However, if you buffer the c-stick, you'll usually dodge in the direction the analogue's being held. I think it might be because of some kind of buffer overflow... so when you release the c-stick, the game reads what direction the analogue's being held as a press of the analogue (though you didn't press it, you were just holding it), and puts that press of the analogue in the buffer.
Also, though you can analogue-dodge to either side and downwrad this way, holding up and mashing the c-stick won't make you jump, even though it will with the c-stick set to tilts or specials. This probably has to do with the special jump properties of those configurations.
The c-stick (set to smashes) can grab by pressing it at the same time you shield (just before, actually), or while shielding by pressing it up or in the same direction the analogue's being held. So if you shield, hold the analogue stick in one direction and mash the c-stick in another, you'll grab if you hit the c-stick at the same time your shield comes up. With both sticks the same direction, you'll always grab. With the c-stick up and the analogue another way, you'll grab if you press the c-stick after the buffer window ends.
If you hold Z to shield, you can't c-stick grab. Pressing the c-stick left or right when a dodge ends (which would make you grab if you were shielding with L) can produce a side-smash (though I can't do down or up smashes this way).
When you set the c-stick to specials, things work similarly, but when you hit the c-stick the same way you're holding the analogue, you jump instead of grab. The regular rules affecting buffering and c-stick jumps also still seem to apply. Hitting the c-stick right when your shield comes back up (with the timing that would make you grab were the c-stick set to smashes) makes you do the corresponding special. Also, it seems how hard you push the c-stick in relation to the analogue can determine whether you dodge in the analogue's direction or the c-stick's direction. Nudging the c-stick while shielding makes you jump; if the analogue is held completely the other way, you dodge the analogue's direction; if the analogue is held lightly, you do an air controlled jump in that direction; if the analogue's held forward, you jump forward.
deeeeeerp I am confuse (ºдಠ)
studly
Smash Ace
very sueful guide...now i dont have to figure it out for myself...persay
Very nice Guide. Of course it's early days yet, but I can see these techs being a real difference from melee games, pro or amatuer (I'm talking about the b-sticking).
Again, brilliant guide. Hopefully you can give us updates on what you find.
Again, brilliant guide. Hopefully you can give us updates on what you find.
SuperWildYoshi
Smash Apprentice
Nice. now I understand why some smash moves are not registered.
tutata
Smash Ace
This is good stuff theres probly some more things we need to find with this.
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
@mugwhump, *laughs* Yeah, I didn't expect the C-Stick to have quite this many awkward buffering peculiarities when I set out on this guide. I had hoped it would be relatively straightforward testing and documenting every possible combination of directions. I did not expect all this strange buffer-related garbage, lol.
I'll do some updating in a while.
I'll do some updating in a while.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
I dunno if this has been posted already, but with C-stick on specials, pressing down during the starting dash animtaion causes you to jump. Short hop available too.
BTW, has anyone experimented with theC-stick and crawling?
BTW, has anyone experimented with theC-stick and crawling?
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
My name got upgraded, but my topic got demoted?
It seems to me that the only advantage b-sticking provides is the auto-rar.
I can't seem to pull this off with it set to smashes.
However, for the ariel retreated ..etc and all that jazz, smash-sticking seems just as easy.
Basically what I do is press a direction on the c-stick (set to smashes) and press B at the same time.
Presto.
Because this still preforms side specials, I can reverse my direction quite easily, or wave bounce or whatever you want to call it, and still have my c-stick set to smashes.
Just hit B at the same time ..
I can't seem to pull this off with it set to smashes.
However, for the ariel retreated ..etc and all that jazz, smash-sticking seems just as easy.
Basically what I do is press a direction on the c-stick (set to smashes) and press B at the same time.
Presto.
Because this still preforms side specials, I can reverse my direction quite easily, or wave bounce or whatever you want to call it, and still have my c-stick set to smashes.
Just hit B at the same time ..
DMK.
Smash Journeyman
Thanks for the breakdown.
After reading this topic, I think I'll set my C-stick to tilts, since I am constantly accidently using smash attacks instead of tilts, and my characters(G&W, Wario) have some strong tilts.
After reading this topic, I think I'll set my C-stick to tilts, since I am constantly accidently using smash attacks instead of tilts, and my characters(G&W, Wario) have some strong tilts.
WeLikeIke
Smash Cadet
It's possible to, using C-Stick Attack, only jump. Just alternate quickly between up and down on the C-stick and your character will not perform any attacks, they will simply jump.
It's horrible.
It's horrible.
Here's my take on the how the c-stick might be functioning and it could explain some of the oddities you've noticed. I think that pressing the c-stick initiates more than one action. It inputs every command needed in order to perform the action you have assigned to it. For example when you have it set to do smashes, pressing the stick in that direction first inputs the command for jamming the control stick in the appropriate direction and then after a couple of frames (one?), it inputs the A button command. The result is a smash, as though you had pressed the buttons yourself. I think it functions in the same manner for specials and tilts. The directional input of the c-stick must have priority over the control stick, so when you are holding down on the control stick and press the c-stick upwards, the upwards direction takes priority for a few frames, which is why you can do up smashes while crouching. I think this also explains why you cannot do down smashes with the c-stick while crouching. You are already holding downwards on the control stick, so pressing down on the c-stick is viewed by the game as you continuing to hold down then pressing A, instead of smashing resulting in a dtilt.
Similarly, it would explain why c-sticking down to do your dair results in a fast fall when the c-stick is set to smash, but not to tilt.
In Melee I think the Stick was very context sensitive, and actually executed commands that could not be input by hand. While in Brawl it's just shorthand for what you could press yourself if you could move that fast.
One other thing I noticed that seems to support my guess is that you can charge smashes that were started with the c-stick by pressing A immediately after the stick, much like charging of b-stick specials that was mentioned earlier.
Similarly, it would explain why c-sticking down to do your dair results in a fast fall when the c-stick is set to smash, but not to tilt.
In Melee I think the Stick was very context sensitive, and actually executed commands that could not be input by hand. While in Brawl it's just shorthand for what you could press yourself if you could move that fast.
One other thing I noticed that seems to support my guess is that you can charge smashes that were started with the c-stick by pressing A immediately after the stick, much like charging of b-stick specials that was mentioned earlier.
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
Well, Zaktar, I'm afraid there's a few holes in your analysis. For starters, we know that the C-Stick smashes in a single frame. If the A input lagged by even a frame behind the directional input, it would be possible to Trip with C-Stick Smashes, but it isn't.
Secondly, you can do smashes out of a crouch with the C-Stick, you just can't do anything but a Dtilt out of a crawl. The crawl sort of "locks you in" to that action until you release the Control Stick.
Thirdly, this curious jumping problem that occurs with the C-Stick in certain settings happens even with Tap Jump off, so we know it's not simply inputting Up on the Control Stick, or else our characters wouldn't jump with Tap Jump off. It also doesn't make a lick of sense for the C-Stick to be inputting X or Y, so we must conclude that the C-Stick is inputting a unique jump command, rather than simply inputting a different button/stick's input. The C-Stick has its own method of inputting these commands directly, it would seem, and it does not need to go "through" another button or stick's input.
The ability to charge smashes also doesn't necessarily support your case, either. If the C-Stick is able to input direct commands itself, then by inputting another, identical direct command from the A button quickly after, it would be feasible that you could continue the charge as if nothing happened.
Also a problem with your theory is the fact that you can charge C-Stick Smashes with C-Stick + Z. Now, in Melee, Z was an attack button at least some of the time, but in Brawl, Z cannot in any other way be used to attack, it's grab/dodge, and that's all. Clearly, then, the C-Stick itself must have a contingency for how to handle this combination, since it cannot simply be that the C-Stick initiates an input and the Z button continues it.
Hope this cleared up some things for you, and welcome to Smash Boards. I'm honored that my guide was your first post.
Secondly, you can do smashes out of a crouch with the C-Stick, you just can't do anything but a Dtilt out of a crawl. The crawl sort of "locks you in" to that action until you release the Control Stick.
Thirdly, this curious jumping problem that occurs with the C-Stick in certain settings happens even with Tap Jump off, so we know it's not simply inputting Up on the Control Stick, or else our characters wouldn't jump with Tap Jump off. It also doesn't make a lick of sense for the C-Stick to be inputting X or Y, so we must conclude that the C-Stick is inputting a unique jump command, rather than simply inputting a different button/stick's input. The C-Stick has its own method of inputting these commands directly, it would seem, and it does not need to go "through" another button or stick's input.
The ability to charge smashes also doesn't necessarily support your case, either. If the C-Stick is able to input direct commands itself, then by inputting another, identical direct command from the A button quickly after, it would be feasible that you could continue the charge as if nothing happened.
Also a problem with your theory is the fact that you can charge C-Stick Smashes with C-Stick + Z. Now, in Melee, Z was an attack button at least some of the time, but in Brawl, Z cannot in any other way be used to attack, it's grab/dodge, and that's all. Clearly, then, the C-Stick itself must have a contingency for how to handle this combination, since it cannot simply be that the C-Stick initiates an input and the Z button continues it.
Hope this cleared up some things for you, and welcome to Smash Boards. I'm honored that my guide was your first post.
For the moment I would like to maintain a portion of my stance, let me make a couple of comments.
First off, I think you are correct about it being a single frame action...
Set your c-stick to smashes, and then press B at roughly the same time you press the c-stick up or down. Try this a few times you should see that if you are lucky you'll be able to do directional specials. I've tried this with a few characters and it seems to be consistent. Now if you set the c-stick to specials and try to do the same but pressing A, you can't do directional smashes like you could do directional specials. So I think that B has Priority over A on a per frame basis. It makes sense to think of the c-stick inputting a single frame command of Direction+Button. So that when you c-stick and press B or when you b-stick and press A, you are really pressing Direction+A+B in a single frame, the game has to resolve ambiguous commands like pressing two conflicting buttons at the same time and they programmed B to have priority over A.
As far as smashing out of crouches, I only said that you can't D-smash while crouched, much like you can't U-Smash while tilting up. It makes sense to be able to smash in any direction you are not currently holding, and I do not contest that.
The c-stick and Z thing is interesting. I didn't know about that before. So I played with it a bit and found that it applies in the exact same to a charged smash started with A. It's easiest if you just smash the control stick, A, and, Z all at the same time, then let go of everything but Z. This actually leads me to believe that the grab button is mapped just like the c-stick. It inputs the command for a grab (Shield + A) into a single frame, and so holding z is like holding both A and L (or R), which would explain why it can be used to hold smashes. I played with this with lucario and samus' neutral b. If you press B and Z at the same time, the special wins out and you start charging (B button out-prioritized A button). But if you hold the Z button down, then immediately after you start charging you cancel it with a shield.
I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just think that there has to be a simple explanation for what these buttons input to the game. From a programming standpoint it must be easier for the controller to send a bunch of simple commands to the game (Grab=Shield + Attack, Smash=Direction+Attack, etc.) and have the game resolve command conflicts with a simple set of rules (If A and B are pressed concurrently->B takes priority, etc.)
Keep me posted on my logic flaws and thanks for the welcome.
First off, I think you are correct about it being a single frame action...
Set your c-stick to smashes, and then press B at roughly the same time you press the c-stick up or down. Try this a few times you should see that if you are lucky you'll be able to do directional specials. I've tried this with a few characters and it seems to be consistent. Now if you set the c-stick to specials and try to do the same but pressing A, you can't do directional smashes like you could do directional specials. So I think that B has Priority over A on a per frame basis. It makes sense to think of the c-stick inputting a single frame command of Direction+Button. So that when you c-stick and press B or when you b-stick and press A, you are really pressing Direction+A+B in a single frame, the game has to resolve ambiguous commands like pressing two conflicting buttons at the same time and they programmed B to have priority over A.
As far as smashing out of crouches, I only said that you can't D-smash while crouched, much like you can't U-Smash while tilting up. It makes sense to be able to smash in any direction you are not currently holding, and I do not contest that.
The c-stick and Z thing is interesting. I didn't know about that before. So I played with it a bit and found that it applies in the exact same to a charged smash started with A. It's easiest if you just smash the control stick, A, and, Z all at the same time, then let go of everything but Z. This actually leads me to believe that the grab button is mapped just like the c-stick. It inputs the command for a grab (Shield + A) into a single frame, and so holding z is like holding both A and L (or R), which would explain why it can be used to hold smashes. I played with this with lucario and samus' neutral b. If you press B and Z at the same time, the special wins out and you start charging (B button out-prioritized A button). But if you hold the Z button down, then immediately after you start charging you cancel it with a shield.
I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just think that there has to be a simple explanation for what these buttons input to the game. From a programming standpoint it must be easier for the controller to send a bunch of simple commands to the game (Grab=Shield + Attack, Smash=Direction+Attack, etc.) and have the game resolve command conflicts with a simple set of rules (If A and B are pressed concurrently->B takes priority, etc.)
Keep me posted on my logic flaws and thanks for the welcome.
Haha I am going to poke a new hole in your theory, sorry
I use the wii-mote/nunchuck and set the d-pad to smashes..
Because of this controller type, it's REALLY EASY to press B at the same time.
I would argue this aspect is actually functionally superior to the gamecube controller.
Anyway, on to my point.
Standing still, smash stick + B will produce a special, this is correct.
However, if you dash forward, smash stick + b produces a smash!
In this case, (while dashing) the A actually overrides the B.
If you're B-sticking instead, it's still possible to dash and do a special at the same time.
With the smash stick this functionality is impossible, which is why you can't auto-rar without a b-stick.. even if you use the smash+b combination.
Also, another point...
Pressing smash stick, waiting a frame, and then pressing and holding A will charge a smash as well. There is no need for all this special z / a combinations.
Slow smashes are the easiest to see this on.
For example I main zelda, who for a side smash pulls back her hands first..
If you smash stick, then hold down a while her hands are pulled back it's still a charge.
Every smash has at least 1 delay frame before it hits the game will check if A is pressed, and if A is signaled to be pressed consecutively 2 frames in a row that will count as a charge until a frame comes where A is no longer pressed.
BTW guys, I use the d-pad as a smash pad on the wii-mote/nunchuck and press B at the same time for specials.. as I previously mentioned.
I am just going to point out that Zelda has the BEST wavebouncing and b-reversal's of any character on the roster. It's amazing how good this technique is with her.
I feel in love with it and practiced for hours on end, so I just want to say THANK YOU for this thread.
I didn't know about that technique until I read it here, and it is quite amazing with her character.
She can throw the din's fire in any direction, and she can propell herself in any direction too.
This creates 4 possibilities.. and she is the only character to have that kind of ariel freedom.
I am just going to point out that Zelda has the BEST wavebouncing and b-reversal's of any character on the roster. It's amazing how good this technique is with her.
I feel in love with it and practiced for hours on end, so I just want to say THANK YOU for this thread.
I didn't know about that technique until I read it here, and it is quite amazing with her character.
She can throw the din's fire in any direction, and she can propell herself in any direction too.
This creates 4 possibilities.. and she is the only character to have that kind of ariel freedom.
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
Actually, uh, every character with a sideways directional special has that same freedom, they just don't have as good a move as din's fire.
Anyway, we were both pretty clear on the fact that you can continue a charge by smashing A quickly after. The reason we might use Z is because it doesn't require such high thumb agility. It's much easier to use a different finger to trigger a charge than to try and use your thumb for both actions.
You bring up a good point in mentioning Auto-RAR, and I was going to be bringing up it, Recoil Special, and B-Reversals as soon as I got back to my computer. Oh, also, please don't say wavebouncing, lol.
Anyway, Zaktar, the mere fact that Auto-RAR occurs is plain evidence that something more than basic inputs are going on in the C-Stick. Where could it be getting that jump command if it's only inputting back + B?
Recoil Specials, on the other hand, could support you. It's probable that the reason a B-Stick'd Recoil Special occurs is because B-Stick back inputs back + B, which should initiate a turnaround B, but since you're still holding forward on the control stick, you get a forward input immediately after, which completes the necessary B-Reversal input to make a Recoil Special.
I also agree with sFoster that the A/B priority isn't that black and white, if I remember right, though I haven't checked recently. I'm not sure I really agree with your both-stick Tilts comment, either. Why the peculiarity where you can only perform angled Ftilts, not normal ones, by pushing both sticks the same direction?
The C-Stick has far more peculiarities than I expected when I set out to make this guide, and I've learned about a hell of a lot of them through it. It just seems like there's a little more going on than basic inputs in the C-Stick. Some of the peculiarities can be explained by reasoning through the input you're giving, but some can't be resolved so easy, like Auto-RAR.
Edit: Oh, and, thanks for the thanks, sFoster. Zelda's one of my primary characters, too, and she is, indeed, a beast.
Anyway, we were both pretty clear on the fact that you can continue a charge by smashing A quickly after. The reason we might use Z is because it doesn't require such high thumb agility. It's much easier to use a different finger to trigger a charge than to try and use your thumb for both actions.
You bring up a good point in mentioning Auto-RAR, and I was going to be bringing up it, Recoil Special, and B-Reversals as soon as I got back to my computer. Oh, also, please don't say wavebouncing, lol.
Anyway, Zaktar, the mere fact that Auto-RAR occurs is plain evidence that something more than basic inputs are going on in the C-Stick. Where could it be getting that jump command if it's only inputting back + B?
Recoil Specials, on the other hand, could support you. It's probable that the reason a B-Stick'd Recoil Special occurs is because B-Stick back inputs back + B, which should initiate a turnaround B, but since you're still holding forward on the control stick, you get a forward input immediately after, which completes the necessary B-Reversal input to make a Recoil Special.
I also agree with sFoster that the A/B priority isn't that black and white, if I remember right, though I haven't checked recently. I'm not sure I really agree with your both-stick Tilts comment, either. Why the peculiarity where you can only perform angled Ftilts, not normal ones, by pushing both sticks the same direction?
The C-Stick has far more peculiarities than I expected when I set out to make this guide, and I've learned about a hell of a lot of them through it. It just seems like there's a little more going on than basic inputs in the C-Stick. Some of the peculiarities can be explained by reasoning through the input you're giving, but some can't be resolved so easy, like Auto-RAR.
Edit: Oh, and, thanks for the thanks, sFoster. Zelda's one of my primary characters, too, and she is, indeed, a beast.
ducky285
Smash Journeyman
A small bit of info that might be worth mentioning but I dunno. As many of you know, if you have Tap Jump On, you can u-smash while shielding by using the analog and A button. The C-stick won't work because you need to jump-cancel the smash.
HOWEVER, if you hit up on the C-stick and press jump at the same time while holding shield, you can perform an u-smash while shielding. This sounds hard but if you have Tap Jump On OR set L to jump (like me since I have Tap Jump Off), this is fairly easy and useful.
Keep in mind that Tap Jump doesn't need to be On to do a running/dashing u-smash and it doesn't need to be jump-canceled.
HOWEVER, if you hit up on the C-stick and press jump at the same time while holding shield, you can perform an u-smash while shielding. This sounds hard but if you have Tap Jump On OR set L to jump (like me since I have Tap Jump Off), this is fairly easy and useful.
Keep in mind that Tap Jump doesn't need to be On to do a running/dashing u-smash and it doesn't need to be jump-canceled.
tutata
Smash Ace
Maybe some examples of what the wave bounce can do for you with dif chars.
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
@tutata, yeah, my original intent was to compile a by-character list indicating every move that gained even the slightest noticeable effect from B-Reversals/Recoil Specials, and discuss the relative use of each. I just haven't had the time, with school and everything. I originally wrote this over Spring Break while I had nothing but time, but I've only really been able to do smallish updates once I got busy with school again. I'm done in just under 2 more weeks, though, so I'll probably be diving into a thorough list like I planned to early in the summer.
PowaStar
Smash Apprentice
This is a great guide
I disagree. I don't see any other character that reverses their momentum to the same degree..
Zelda can jump twice in a direction, reverse her momentum and return to the exact spot. And she can do this while throwing the din's forward OR backward.. because both the recoil specials and the b-reversals cahnge her momentum just as effectively.
Please tell me what other character is capable of that..
I'm not trying to be on the offensive here, but I tested and honestly didn't find any.
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
I was responding very directly to this comment:
My point was just that you made it seem like, in tech theory alone, Zelda had unique options. Almost every character has those same 4 possibilities that she has that you mention. There's no combination of inputs unique to Zelda in regard to B-Reversals and Recoil Specials. Everyone can B-Reversal forwards and backwards and Recoil Special forwards and backwards.
You make it seem like her ability to use Din's Fire backwards is unique, almost. It's not. Every character can perform any of their four specials backwards or forwards. Most side-B's automatically accommodate for backwards input, and the rest can be turnaround B'd. Turnaround B doesn't apply only to neutral B attacks. The same goes for B-Reversal's.
There's not anything unique to the mechanic itself in regard to Zelda. Some of her moves have a more pronounced effect than other characters moves, but they're all still capable of the same basic maneuvers. Hers are more useful than most of the cast, more evident, but everyone can do the things she can, just not to the same degree.
Also, a properly executed Recoil Special will always change momentum as effectively as a B-Reversal, because that's basically all a Recoil Special is--a B-Reversal. It's possible to accidentally DI when you're trying to Recoil Special manually, diminishing your momentum before you reverse it, but if executed frame-perfect, their effect will be the same, the directions just may vary. Apparent differences in the two are only less-than-optimal Recoil Specials.
In regards to your example from the previous post, I'd assume Toon Link and Lucas could return to their starting spot, even after two jumps, just as well as Zelda. They also get very noticeable effects from B-Reversals.
My point was basically just this: some characters get better results than others, but all characters have the same options available to them.
Edit: A quick read-through showed I sounded a little hostile. I didn't mean to, so I hope you can disregard anything that sounds like hostility. It's just poor phrasing, I promise.
Sorry if that wasn't exactly clear.sFoster said:
My point was just that you made it seem like, in tech theory alone, Zelda had unique options. Almost every character has those same 4 possibilities that she has that you mention. There's no combination of inputs unique to Zelda in regard to B-Reversals and Recoil Specials. Everyone can B-Reversal forwards and backwards and Recoil Special forwards and backwards.
You make it seem like her ability to use Din's Fire backwards is unique, almost. It's not. Every character can perform any of their four specials backwards or forwards. Most side-B's automatically accommodate for backwards input, and the rest can be turnaround B'd. Turnaround B doesn't apply only to neutral B attacks. The same goes for B-Reversal's.
There's not anything unique to the mechanic itself in regard to Zelda. Some of her moves have a more pronounced effect than other characters moves, but they're all still capable of the same basic maneuvers. Hers are more useful than most of the cast, more evident, but everyone can do the things she can, just not to the same degree.
Also, a properly executed Recoil Special will always change momentum as effectively as a B-Reversal, because that's basically all a Recoil Special is--a B-Reversal. It's possible to accidentally DI when you're trying to Recoil Special manually, diminishing your momentum before you reverse it, but if executed frame-perfect, their effect will be the same, the directions just may vary. Apparent differences in the two are only less-than-optimal Recoil Specials.
In regards to your example from the previous post, I'd assume Toon Link and Lucas could return to their starting spot, even after two jumps, just as well as Zelda. They also get very noticeable effects from B-Reversals.
My point was basically just this: some characters get better results than others, but all characters have the same options available to them.
Edit: A quick read-through showed I sounded a little hostile. I didn't mean to, so I hope you can disregard anything that sounds like hostility. It's just poor phrasing, I promise.
Ulevo
Smash Master
A very good read, and very informative Taymond. * Subscribes *
No worries about coming off hostile, I just want to get to the bottom of this so I don't spread any misinformation.
On lucas, preforming a b-reversal will actually halt his momentum.
This is not a big worry, because just a normal shot in the opposite direction creates the expected b-reversal effect instead.
Lucas also has the effect of shooting himself backwards too far, rather than returning to the spot he came from. Naturally that can be overcome by just not jumping as far forward.
However.. maybe I am missing something here, because I CANNOT shoot pkfire forward and travel forward with lucas at the same time.
One of things I was trying to say w/ zelda was that all 4 combinations are possible.
(Dins forward, Zelda forward) (Dins forward, Zelda backwards)
(Dins backward, Zelda forward) (Dins backward, Zelda backwards)
It is extremely easy to shoot in place as well.
You make a great point w/ toon link tho, since all of these are possible..
I guess the difference is that TL only has the recoil momentum for about 1/2 a second, then you have to move on normal DI.
The Lucas and Zelda recoil will shoot them backward unlike link, but the Zelda and Link specials both shoot in any, and go in any direction at the same time, unlike Lucas.
I was wrong and had poor phrasing if I made it sound like these abilities are all unique to zelda, so I apologize. You're right in saying that most characters can preform the moves.
I guess I was trying to say that these techniques seem to give zelda (some?) of the most pronounced benefits out of all the characters. It appears that she has a complete package so to speak and I haven't seen anyone else with the full combination of effects expressed in their special attack.
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, I see what you meant, now. She's certainly one of the best characters to use it, without a doubt. Zelda's one of my top three right now, and she's definitely deadly all around. Lucas was perhaps a bad visual example, even though he is one of the highest-effect characters for B-Reversal. The properties of PK Fire automatically create momentum backwards, so it's going to interfere with any observation that should end in forward momentum.
I get a little worried when you say stuff like this, though:
In any event, because of PK-Fire's own momentum properties, it's hard to see the pronounced effects Lucas is capable of. A B-Reversal does actually flip his momentum and give him a solid boost, which is immediately cancelled by PK-Fire's innate recoiling momentum. In a standard-issue Recoil Special, however, you can see how Lucas's B-Reversal momentum shift combines with PK-Fire's own backwards momentum for a large effect.
If you try out PK Freeze or Magnet instead, you can see that all four options are possible for Lucas, technically speaking, it's just that PK Fire has some properties of its own that interfere with the results in certain cases. Lucas's PK Freeze after 2 jumps drops him right where he jumped, I believe. You're right that PK Fire cannot accommodate all four cases, because of the move itself, but Lucas's other Specials can fire forward and travel forward just fine, you'll notice.
The oft-forgotten other Mother boy, Ness, can demonstrate all four cases pretty well, as well, as his PK Fire doesn't have such self-propellent effects. Yoshi's egg toss, the spacers lasers, Bowser/Charizard's fire breath, Mario/Luigi's fireballs, R.O.B.'s laser, ICs blizzard and ice block, link's bow and boomerang, DDD's projectiles, samus/lucario's energy balls, pikachu's projectile, and even things like Olimar's pikmin throw or Snake's grenade toss are handily capable of all four, also.
I guess the main idea I was trying to stress to you was that it's not only projectile attacks that can benefit from this, although they are certainly one of the best options. Short range pseudoprojectiles like fire breath, blizzard, Pikachu's thunder, or even Squirtle and Mario's water attacks work well, too. Even melee attacks have merit. I've got at least 2 beautiful B-Reversal'd 9's from G&W, I know.
I just hate seeing people sell B-Reversal short, lol, as I firmly believe it's one of the most broad, important ATs we've gotten our hands on.
I get a little worried when you say stuff like this, though:
Situation: jumping right. A PK Fire directed left will face Lucas left, fire left, and continue moving right. An "expected" B-Reversal should face Lucas left, fire left, AND change momentum to left. These two shouldn't be considered the same case.sFoster said:
In any event, because of PK-Fire's own momentum properties, it's hard to see the pronounced effects Lucas is capable of. A B-Reversal does actually flip his momentum and give him a solid boost, which is immediately cancelled by PK-Fire's innate recoiling momentum. In a standard-issue Recoil Special, however, you can see how Lucas's B-Reversal momentum shift combines with PK-Fire's own backwards momentum for a large effect.
If you try out PK Freeze or Magnet instead, you can see that all four options are possible for Lucas, technically speaking, it's just that PK Fire has some properties of its own that interfere with the results in certain cases. Lucas's PK Freeze after 2 jumps drops him right where he jumped, I believe. You're right that PK Fire cannot accommodate all four cases, because of the move itself, but Lucas's other Specials can fire forward and travel forward just fine, you'll notice.
The oft-forgotten other Mother boy, Ness, can demonstrate all four cases pretty well, as well, as his PK Fire doesn't have such self-propellent effects. Yoshi's egg toss, the spacers lasers, Bowser/Charizard's fire breath, Mario/Luigi's fireballs, R.O.B.'s laser, ICs blizzard and ice block, link's bow and boomerang, DDD's projectiles, samus/lucario's energy balls, pikachu's projectile, and even things like Olimar's pikmin throw or Snake's grenade toss are handily capable of all four, also.
I guess the main idea I was trying to stress to you was that it's not only projectile attacks that can benefit from this, although they are certainly one of the best options. Short range pseudoprojectiles like fire breath, blizzard, Pikachu's thunder, or even Squirtle and Mario's water attacks work well, too. Even melee attacks have merit. I've got at least 2 beautiful B-Reversal'd 9's from G&W, I know.
I just hate seeing people sell B-Reversal short, lol, as I firmly believe it's one of the most broad, important ATs we've gotten our hands on.
You're right, I'm not sure what I was thinking there. I almost never play lucas and his innate momentum was throwing off my thinking.
I am going to try out the pikachu down-b that sounds really interesting to use for this, thanks.
MysticKenji
Smash Master
(Bump)
Jumpng in an A-stick config can done using any direction by tapping it repeatedly, not just an upwards one.
Jumpng in an A-stick config can done using any direction by tapping it repeatedly, not just an upwards one.
mlgc4
Smash Apprentice
I went threw trying to sdi in brawl and really couldn't smash di anything, if someone can put a sdi video up that would be great.
=]
=]
Rikuna
Smash Rookie
Yeah, I am having problems with it as well. Say Pikachu down smashes you - do you just repeatedly tap left on the C stick (or right) to get out of it?
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
It's not a super hard concept, I don't think. It's mostly intuitive. You just tap the direction you want to move. That said, I don't know offhand what the best direction to escape each move is, if that's what you're asking. Scotu might be able to answer better: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4158733
To put it simply, if you wanna escape to the left, you SDI left, if you wanna escape right, SDI right. If ya wanna go up, which might work in that particular case, SDI up.
To put it simply, if you wanna escape to the left, you SDI left, if you wanna escape right, SDI right. If ya wanna go up, which might work in that particular case, SDI up.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
THIS GUIDE IS INCOMPLETE!
I have good reason to believe that many unexplored ways of using the C-stick have yet to be found. Whether these ways are essential to general combat, I'm not yet sure, but The C-Stick Compendium currently says next to NOTHING about how the C-stick functions when certain buttons are held. For example, today I finally answered the age old question: Why do I sometimes jump when my C-Stick is set to attack/tilt?
This is because while any attack button is held/input is being regestered, the C-stick then functions as a JUMP stick no matter what direction you push it. In short, if you hold your attack button while the c-stick is set to tilts, you will perform a jump when using the C-stick.
If your C-stick is set to smash, and you're holding an attack button, while walking at full speed, pressing up or down will initiate a dash. Pressing C-stick down while holding an attack button while walking at any other speed will initiate a crouch, which will NOT be held (you won't remain crouching.) Pressing left or right will result in a CHARGED smash attack in that direction. Pressing C-stick UP while walking at any other speed and holding an attack button will RESET your walking animation. Pressing C-stick up and holding down on the directional stick (crouching) will cause you to stand, but then go back to crouching. There SEEM to be interruption frame on crouch rise. I can at least to a crouch rise canceled crouch, by holding an attack button while crouching, then pushing up on the Cstick to feint a rise, and then pressing a different attack button (or just flicking the Cstick twice really fast, since it counts as an attack trigger) in the very beginning of rise.. The easiest way I could do this was to set L to attack, and then Hold L while crouching, and hit Cstick up, and then immediately after press A.
ALSO, similarly how you can do directional specials with the smash stick by pressing the special attack button and a c-stick direction at the nearly the exact same time, you can do the same with jumps. Simply press the c-stick forwards or backwards at nearly the exact same time you perform a jump. I believe both of these have something to do with the SDI the Smash stick provides.
I discovered most of this while checking out Pivot Walking, which should also be included in The CSC. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207154
Is any of this useful? Eh, I dunno, but it should still be documented for the sake of future discoveries and potential. Also, by mastering every nook and cranny of the game, one might be able to slightly expand their ability to use mindgames.
I think I might find even more stuff out, but I wanted to write down what I had discovered thusfar. I get the feeling Brawl is much deeper than people say it is, because while people claim there is nothing
I have good reason to believe that many unexplored ways of using the C-stick have yet to be found. Whether these ways are essential to general combat, I'm not yet sure, but The C-Stick Compendium currently says next to NOTHING about how the C-stick functions when certain buttons are held. For example, today I finally answered the age old question: Why do I sometimes jump when my C-Stick is set to attack/tilt?
This is because while any attack button is held/input is being regestered, the C-stick then functions as a JUMP stick no matter what direction you push it. In short, if you hold your attack button while the c-stick is set to tilts, you will perform a jump when using the C-stick.
If your C-stick is set to smash, and you're holding an attack button, while walking at full speed, pressing up or down will initiate a dash. Pressing C-stick down while holding an attack button while walking at any other speed will initiate a crouch, which will NOT be held (you won't remain crouching.) Pressing left or right will result in a CHARGED smash attack in that direction. Pressing C-stick UP while walking at any other speed and holding an attack button will RESET your walking animation. Pressing C-stick up and holding down on the directional stick (crouching) will cause you to stand, but then go back to crouching. There SEEM to be interruption frame on crouch rise. I can at least to a crouch rise canceled crouch, by holding an attack button while crouching, then pushing up on the Cstick to feint a rise, and then pressing a different attack button (or just flicking the Cstick twice really fast, since it counts as an attack trigger) in the very beginning of rise.. The easiest way I could do this was to set L to attack, and then Hold L while crouching, and hit Cstick up, and then immediately after press A.
ALSO, similarly how you can do directional specials with the smash stick by pressing the special attack button and a c-stick direction at the nearly the exact same time, you can do the same with jumps. Simply press the c-stick forwards or backwards at nearly the exact same time you perform a jump. I believe both of these have something to do with the SDI the Smash stick provides.
I discovered most of this while checking out Pivot Walking, which should also be included in The CSC. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207154
Is any of this useful? Eh, I dunno, but it should still be documented for the sake of future discoveries and potential. Also, by mastering every nook and cranny of the game, one might be able to slightly expand their ability to use mindgames.
I think I might find even more stuff out, but I wanted to write down what I had discovered thusfar. I get the feeling Brawl is much deeper than people say it is, because while people claim there is nothing
WoodyWiggins
Smash Journeyman
Quick question, do you think it is possible to use these interuptions to interupt an attack, somehow? I have been experimenting with Pivot Walking and ledges. When you Pivot Walk at (or approaching) a ledge, the Pivot animation keeps you at the ledge until it's completed. In other words, the Pivot Walk can be used as a "ledge stall".
When stalling, you can buffer things like attacks, specials, and DI. Other things like grabs, and smashes can be buffered, but when paired with DI, grabs become air dodges and and smashes become aerials.
Do you think it's possible to perform an aerial smash, if you time a smash attack correctly? Or is there some kind of collision box over ride that could prevent this from ever happening?