The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[thrillagorilla]

Well never-mind, lol. Fromundaman covered most of what I wanted to say. I still don't believe that Mario has equal kill options, or that it is very easy to gimp either character in this MU, though.

In reference to gimping, Mario should really try and use his invincibility frames on the upB rather than the priority on the rest of the attack to get to the stage. Same as when you're fighting D3, MK, or Oli who have attacks that beat our upB.

This should prevent low % kills near the stage. In the brief few matches that I played M2K in teams, he destroyed me offstage. I found that it was much easier to get onstage if you take advantage of the invincible startup to go through MK's Dair. Same should work vs Kirby

This is what I was thinking of when I said Mario has to be pretty far out for Kirby to gimp very easily. Up-b should have no trouble going straight through if its in the first few frames. Actually, I think that it may cut through anything Kirby has, or at least trade hits.

On Kirby's end, his hammer should conserve enough jumps to deal with most of Mario's cape and FLUDD shenanigans.

As for kill options, Kirby's f-smash is a much more reliable killer than Mario's, and can be set up by a few different moves. His U-smash, d-smash and hammer can kill as well, but not as effectively since they don't have set ups. Bair can do the trick too if its not diminished.

The big trick in this MU is the fact Kirby has to approach, which makes most of his game much less dangerous than usual. Tack on the fact that Mario has one of the best OoS options in the game and a semi-spammable projectile, and you've got a pretty fair MU, maybe slightly in Mario's favor. If Kirby gets Mario's power, though, it goes in Kirby's favor due to the roles being reversed.

@fromundaman: I'm happy to take you up on that offer, seeing as we both play both characters.

@straked: We need to get those matches in sometime, might as well be while this MU discussion is going.

 

[Inferno3044]

Well never-mind, lol. Fromundaman covered most of what I wanted to say. I still don't believe that Mario has equal kill options, or that it is very easy to gimp either character in this MU, though.



This is what I was thinking of when I said Mario has to be pretty far out for Kirby to gimp very easily. Up-b should have no trouble going straight through if its in the first few frames. Actually, I think that it may cut through anything Kirby has, or at least trade hits.

On Kirby's end, his hammer should conserve enough jumps to deal with most of Mario's cape and FLUDD shenanigans.

I agree. this is a match where gimping should not be relied on. Just kill them the old fashioned way.

As for kill options, Kirby's f-smash is a much more reliable killer than Mario's, and can be set up by a few different moves. His U-smash, d-smash and hammer can kill as well, but not as effectively since they don't have set ups. Bair can do the trick too if its not diminished.

Do you know why? Kirby has a FOOT OF DOOM!!!!!!!! It's why Kirby has extremely good priority. The hammer probably won't kill normally because we can see it and shield, cape, dodge, etc.

The big trick in this MU is the fact Kirby has to approach, which makes most of his game much less dangerous than usual. Tack on the fact that Mario has one of the best OoS options in the game and a semi-spammable projectile, and you've got a pretty fair MU, maybe slightly in Mario's favor. If Kirby gets Mario's power, though, it goes in Kirby's favor due to the roles being reversed.

This makes FLUDD, fireballs, and bair spacing very useful. Play it sort of defensively, but you can definitely be ok if you take the offense in this matchup. Use FIHL when appropriate and use it to set up an Fsmash. It's true that we have very good oos options, mainly UpB oos. Also talking about an earlier comment, 10 frames is too slow for a combo breaker.

This is a close match. 55:45 Mario at best, 55:45 Kirby at worst. So I think it's fair to call it an even 50:50.

 

[fromundaman]

Lol I remember that.

Yeah, that was awesome. Another Mario hit me with 2 more at WnB III (though I still won the set.).

Personally, I find Kirby gimps Mario better with Bair than Dair though. UpB can make it through the Dair, as you said, whereas Bairs can keep you away from the stage, and if you use it to counter my Bair, I'll just watch you fall to your doom.

 

[Matador]

This isn't Mario's adv. Kirby has general priority and KO power over us.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Kirby is even...or close to it. Kirby doesn't have anything extremely gay that can force approaches or make you think twice about shielding (besides getting a grab at low percents), so naturally, he never really annihilates anyone, and anyone that can camp him more readily will automatically make things lame for him.

So you'll probably be fireball camping and camping with B-airs, Up-B, U-air, and the like. Mario has the advantage juggling and camping, so keep that in mind. It's important to save Up-smash vs him because he can be annoyingly hard to KO since a lot of his strategy is shieldcamping, like DDD. Alternatively, B-throw is a good KO move at around 130% when fresh.

 

[Inferno3044]

This isn't Mario's adv. Kirby has general priority and KO power over us.

Yeah its true about priority and KO power, but his very light weight makes it about leveled for KO power. I'm pretty sure he has more KO options than us cuz we have only 2 really reliable ones, Usmash and Fsmash. Also, we outrange them when it comes to smash attacks. I said 55:45 Mario at best because if somebody says it showing some knowledge of the matchup and able to back up what they say, i can see what they are talking about and same if you say 55:45 Kirby. I personally think its 50:50 though.

 

[Matador]

Even with his light weight taken into account, his Fsmash alone gives him more reliable AND more powerful KO options to work with. Also keep in mind that he can rack up damage rather quickly from grab. Not only that, but trying to gimp him offstage is alot riskier than vice versa because of his aerials and neutral B.

It just seems that we have to work harder to keep up with Kirby here.

 

[:mad:]

Whoa. Sorry I haven't posted all day, I've been playing Melee for nearly 3 hours this morning.
I'll update now.

 

[vato_break]

kirby can camp you pretty hard with all his jumps too..

 

[:mad:]

Not exactly. Keep in mind his aerial speed is pretty bad, so he can't aircamp at all.

 

[Matador]

Not exactly. Keep in mind his aerial speed is pretty bad, so he can't aircamp at all.

That doesn't mean anything. The best aerial camper in the game has one of the worst aerial speeds. Multiple jumps count for much more than that.

Kirby's Bair is insane. I wouldn't be surprised if he's capable of walling Mario with it.

 

[:mad:]

Yeah, his Bair has ridiculous priority. Although I'd be more worried about his Dair and Inhale when recovering, but that's just me.

I fight way too many Kirbys, but most of it online anyway.

 

[fromundaman]

Meh, I disagree, Kirby can air camp effectively, just not as effectively as Wario. Also, if we air camp well, it can force you to approach from the air (or just wait until we get bored of air camping), where I believe Bair will beat out all of Mario's aerials.

Still, this is pretty much an even match. A fresh Dsmash is actually very effective against us though, if you manage to keep it fresh, since it sends us at a low angle, which can force us to need to use our UpB, which can easily cost a stock.

 

[Matador]

Yeah, his Bair has ridiculous priority. Although I'd be more worried about his Dair and Inhale when recovering, but that's just me.

I was referring to onstage. Offstage, Dair will usually mean a stock; same with inhale.

Onstage, Bair is much more of a threat because of how much priority it has. I THINK it trades with our Bair, but I can't test.

 

[hippiedude92]

I could have swore, cape/fludd wreck aircamping. lol.

 

[vato_break]

peach next please

 

[A2ZOMG]

I was referring to onstage. Offstage, Dair will usually mean a stock; same with inhale.

If you think he'll D-air, just get under him and U-air. Works every time for me. That same spacing for U-air will also counter his inhale. Keep in mind tho, his D-air trades hits with your Up-B.

Onstage, Bair is much more of a threat because of how much priority it has. I THINK it trades with our Bair, but I can't test.

Yeah, you trade hits a lot in this matchup. The most notable time where you don't trade hits is when you're below him, and U-air will beat him every time unless he does Down-B.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

We're also super safe on shield, which I think is pretty important in this matchup.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You're only super safe on shield when D-airing, but you are safer on shield than Kirby is.

 

[mdmfromdaridge]

U-air is your best friend against the pink one.

 

[Inferno3044]

You're only super safe on shield when D-airing, but you are safer on shield than Kirby is.

if you can predict that they will shield, then approach with dair.

This is definitely not a hard matchup relative to some other people and definitely winnable. Uair really helps because its fast with little lag and will beat kirby's dair i think. you both mainly are trying to juggle each other, doing bair spacing, and trying to combo. Don't rely on gimping kirby because you can end up killing yourself instead.

 

[:mad:]

if you can predict that they will shield, then approach with dair.

This is definitely not a hard matchup relative to some other people and definitely winnable. Uair really helps because its fast with little lag and will beat kirby's dair i think. you both mainly are trying to juggle each other, doing bair spacing, and trying to combo. Don't rely on gimping kirby because you can end up killing yourself instead.

Bold part is extremely important. I played this ridiculously bad Kirby players a few weeks ago. All they did was dash attack, cutter, and pick RC every match. The few times I got BF or SV in, I usually lost a stock from capestalling.

But I did redeem myself last game by jab-locking him on RC. He didn't know what happened.

 

[professor mgw]

i can't seem 2 hit kirby with the fireballs.
how can I?

 

[:mad:]

i can't seem 2 hit kirby with the fireballs.
how can I?

Press 'B' on your controller and ask the Kirby to sit still.

No, really. Even if they don't hit him, you're still putting pressure on the Kirby.

 

[fromundaman]

Fireballs force us to jump, Spotdodge, roll, or Shield. Take advantage of that.

 

[Matador]

Press 'B' on your controller and ask the Kirby to sit still.

No, really. Even if they don't hit him, you're still putting pressure on the Kirby.

Fireballs force us to jump, Spotdodge, roll, or Shield. Take advantage of that.

Nicely put. I honestly didn't know what to say to "I can't hit him!" aside from...'try harder?'

Yeah, you're trying to force a punishable action out of him. If it hits and you can follow up, that's a bonus.

 

[Inferno3044]

I don't think there is anymore really needed to cover. The matchup is 50:50. Let's do Peach next since vato asked.

 

[Matador]

I don't think there is anymore really needed to cover. The matchup is 50:50. Let's do Peach next since vato asked.

Please....Not again. We just did it.

How about we do Ganon? Or better yet, how about we do like...Pit or ICs? And this time actually get their side instead of their village idiot to silently nod and agree with everything we say argue for them?

 

[:mad:]

Yeah, the Peach MU was ridiculous. They think 55:45 their favor, and it's just not worth arguing our side.

Pit's just fine with me, he's 4th on Japan's tier list. And I've been seeing more and more of them.
We'll do the Peach discussion LAST.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

Please....Not again. We just did it.

How about we do Ganon? Or better yet, how about we do like...Pit or ICs? And this time actually get their side instead of their village idiot to silently nod and agree with everything we say argue for them?

I hate long winded arguments...whenever I see them I skip past to the Quick Reply box and just type..."Y'all dumb"



....just sayin'

 

[Inferno3044]

oh yeah i remember the peach MU. i just left because it seemed like it wasnt really going anywhere like the zelda MU and how the very beginning of the Marth MU was (marth went pretty well when we got down to business. just a disagreement). We did ICs already unless you guys REALLY want to discuss it again, so i guess we should do Pit.

 

[Matt07]

I usually do very well against some Pit's (2 stock) or get completely owned. I barely go even with them lol. It's a very fun and interesting match-up. He has a Cape like us though that can reverse our up B !

 

[vato_break]

peach,wolf,or lucario plz...

 

[A2ZOMG]

We already beat Peach to death...I'll never agree with anyone on the matchup lmao.

Vs Wolf. Another even matchup. U-tilt juggles and gimps vs his gay F-smash and laser camping...N-air is your friend vs his recovery.

Vs Lucario...I hate this matchup. His D-air is gay, and his F-smash is very hard to punish.

 

[:mad:]

We already did Lucario.
Let's just get Pit over with, we might get one or two people to help out.

 

[Inferno3044]

we discussed lucario and the matchup was 60:40 lucario. i think its 55:45 but not the point. lets talk about all the characters once before discussing a character twice. i say we go with pit, dedede w/o infinite, or pikachu.

EDIT: Straked's post came just b4 i posted. Pit it is.

 

[hippiedude92]

Let's go Ike since Hippie's nubiness got knocked out by a random Ike in losers bracket! So noob inorite! ;3

 

[The Master of Mario]

Kirby-

U-smash KO because of low weight.
Floaty Makes easier to Combo with fireballs when hitting opponent in the air.
Blind U-air -> U-smash.
Kirby Doesn't have much of a U-air or range in D-air but can approach well.
Practice escaping from Kirby's absorb.
Kirby can steal your fireballs.
Use Dash attack to lead into Up-smash and aerials or cape.

 

[Inferno3044]

there was a recent discussion of the Mario vs. Ike MU on the ike boards. lets do pit and come back to Ike later.

 

[:mad:]

Pit it is. I'll update now, get to discussing, guys.