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The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

mdmfromdaridge

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Hmm pit. Have that cape on the ready and be prepared to eat a good few arrows whether you like it or not. Dont bother combatting Pit's uair. just decend and be on with it. I believe this to be a tougher match up. Gimps are difficult on this sOb. unless you can climb a good platform and nail him with a fireball during his recovery. To bad you arent going to be playing many pit's that are dumb enough not to realize their own recovery. Careful with fireballs. Pit's dspecial is unfortunate. providing a fairly large shield from your bair approaches and fireballs. granted you can get around it FAIRLY easily but thats assuming the pit player doesnt drop that shield quick and just give you an ftilt for the hell of it. i dont like fighting pit. 60:40 pit.
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
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General Pit Knowledge
Pit's KO power is nothing special as long as you avoid the sweetspot on his Bair. A good Pit will know how to mindgame you into it with WoI or offstage, so just be wary of it. Fsmash and cape also outrange a good deal of his attacks. Pit is also adept at laying on thick shield pressure, so keep tap jump on for upB OOS. Pit's Utilt is practically instant as well. Don't challenge its speed; simply space yourself and outrange it. It'd usually done from airdodge right on top of you or spotdodge -> Utilt. Watch for this.

KO Moves
Usmash's role in this matchup can go either way. Usmash would definitely help against his priority and to start up combos a little easier, but the KO power would be nice as well. Usmash should be finishing him around 130% reliably, so keep that in mind for whichever path you take for Usmash. Pit's killers are Ftilt, Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair and general edgeguarding. His Fsmash is pretty safe and is dangerous fresh. His DownB is also an amazing edgeguarding tool vs Mario because it reverses our upB if we attack it.

Approach Methods
Despite Pit having two reflectors, approaches will generally consist of fireballs and spaced Bairs. Contrary to popular belief, Pit doesn't have THAT much range; his strength is the disjoints. His range, however, is what we can challenge and often contend with. Not a very difficult match. I could easily see this being slightly in Mario's favor if nothing new it brought up.

Other stuff
Pit doesn't have a combo breaker in the air, but on the ground, beware his Utilt.

If Pit is forced to use his upB offstage below you while you hang on the ledge, ledgedrop -> Dair. One of the weaker multihits will knock him out of the attack without giving knockback enough to aid his recovery.

Pit has a fierce grab game. His most notable grab is a Fthrow. Afterwards, he can chase and hit with a variety of options including Fair, Arrows, or simply regrab. DI and avoid this.

Don't be afraid to cape his arrows, especially offstage. Unlike Falco, Pit can't shoot his projectile fast enough to outspeed cape's wind-down. Be ready for Pit to try to reflect his arrow right back if the distance between the two of you is great enough.

Nearly all of his aerials and attacks are susceptible to FIHL. Use this to your advantage.

If you're caught in one of Pit's many multi-hit attacks, remember to SDI and counterattack. Pit's attacks don't have much lag, so create some by getting out of them early.

Pit can charge his arrows, not only for more dmg, but also to bait the cape and punish the lag. Don't fall for this.
 

KirinBlaze

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Watch out for WoI Stalling into FF Aerials. It's a very effective option when Pit is in the air.

He can also run offstage, time his DownB and reverse your recovery, much like our cape. He also has a method of pivot boosting out of a spot dodge that gives him quite a push forward that he can use to Ftilt or Smash out of, just be careful of that.
 

Inferno3044

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nothing seems to be too hard in this matchup. ive never seen pit as someone with that good ability to ko and as said, he has disjoints like every attack but lacks range. He will be using the his DownB similar to how we use cape for gimping, but it gives no momentum so he cant do something equivalent to using the cape twice. He is probably one of the hardest characters for mario to gimp because he can glide or WoI to the other side from below. This is one of those MUs where you cant expect to get a gimp as a stock. Try and fight him in the air because our air game is better.

Well I'm off to get the opposing mains as usual.
 

Commander_Beef

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We have the first portion of our our tilt as an infinite (or move refresher) on mid weights like Mario...
Try and fight him in the air because our air game is better.

Well I'm off to get the opposing mains as usual.
Are you serious? Our airgame isn't that bad! If anything, both airgames are equal.
Our forward air would trade with your back air but our back air has enough frames to pierce through your aerials.
 

Matador

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What do you mean "tilt infinite"?

Edit: Either way, this is a pretty easy matchup. Easy to gimp with fireballs and cape, easy to combo due to his weight and lack of combo breaker, and he has about the same range as us in general despite the disjoints, so that's not a huge issue.

His arrows are good for camping, but cape does well to thwart all attempts with that. And you can SDI out of his multihit attacks pretty easily.

He's also not a powerful killer as long as you keep away from his Bair. 60:40. Arguably 65:35
 

Inferno3044

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Are you serious? Our airgame isn't that bad! If anything, both airgames are equal.
Our forward air would trade with your back air but our back air has enough frames to pierce through your aerials.
I'm not saying your air game is bad. It is good but ours has some stuff very helpful that you lack. Our air game makes it so that we can easily juggle and combo opponents and Pit doesn't have a combo breaker. Most of our aerials are quick and have low lag. The downside to our aerial game is that it has bad range which doesnt matter cuz pits range is also bad and we dont have an aerial that can reliably kill until like 170% unlike pit that can kill with a sweetspotted bair. your air game has some multi hits which can be good in some cases, but possible to DI out of and punish.

60:40 Mario
 

:mad:

Bird Law Aficionado
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By better air game, we're only saying that Mario's aerials are ALL good. Fair's gonna be your least used aerial as Mario. It's slow and only used as a small meteor. Bair, Uair, Nair, then Dair. In that order. iirc, Pit's Dair, Uair, and Nair are all bad. Fsmash and Bair are your killers, am I right? So long as we keep this in mind, it's not very difficult to predict it.

If you go arrow crazy, we can just cape it. Unless you loop, of course. At any rate, Mario can play campier, and can only force you to approach at mid-range.
 

JUDGE

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My main strategies when playing against MK are spacing (with FLUDD mostly) and lots of OOS moves. Also, oddly enough, MK's weakest point seems to be his underside, despite his **** Dair.

yeah that's right
with the right timing you can interrupt the tornado with an upair
 

Inferno3044

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yeah that's right
with the right timing you can interrupt the tornado with an upair
Meta knight was 15 people ago. The conversation is about pit.

Since it seems that nobody is putting anymore to say, im calling this 60:40 Mario until somebody can enlighten me on some other things.

Edit: WE ARE ON PIT!! (possibly just ended) not metaknight, not G&W, Pit.
 

Matt07

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Actually if the GnW is at high percents, it's actually not a bad idea to camp them. They lose their ability to bucket break (if the bucket's filled), and if the GnW goes to bucket a Fireball he'll eat an fsmash.

Wow there was just like 2 comments posted at the same time as mine...lol.
 

teh_pwns_the

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By better air game, we're only saying that Mario's aerials are ALL good. Fair's gonna be your least used aerial as Mario. It's slow and only used as a small meteor. Bair, Uair, Nair, then Dair. In that order. iirc, Pit's Dair, Uair, and Nair are all bad. Fsmash and Bair are your killers, am I right? So long as we keep this in mind, it's not very difficult to predict it.

If you go arrow crazy, we can just cape it. Unless you loop, of course. At any rate, Mario can play campier, and can only force you to approach at mid-range.
Only pits dair can even be considered bad, but that still has its uses (rising aerial) Uair has got some pretty sick priority and decent knockback, and our Nair is good for shorthopping, and it cancels out your fireball, mario can outcamp pit.... are you serious? pits arrows are more spammable and can be held until you cape and we punish your premature cape, not to mention the fact that your fireballs if we dont jsut nair them can be reflected by eitehr AR or mirror shield

I'm not saying your air game is bad. It is good but ours has some stuff very helpful that you lack. Our air game makes it so that we can easily juggle and combo opponents and Pit doesn't have a combo breaker. Most of our aerials are quick and have low lag. The downside to our aerial game is that it has bad range which doesnt matter cuz pits range is also bad and we dont have an aerial that can reliably kill until like 170% unlike pit that can kill with a sweetspotted bair. your air game has some multi hits which can be good in some cases, but possible to DI out of and punish.
haha uhm combo breakers are Nair (which you guys seem to underestimate) and UpB, since it comes out neraly instantly plus push, plus we can attack out of it... DIing out of one of our multihit aerials and punishing is difficult at best haha

Meta knight was 15 people ago. The conversation is about pit.

Since it seems that nobody is putting anymore to say, im calling this 60:40 Mario until somebody can enlighten me on some other things.

Edit: WE ARE ON PIT!! (possibly just ended) not metaknight, not G&W, Pit.
60:40......

HAHAHAHAHA are you guys serious, please tell me this is a joke or you are just trollin really hard and hoping we'd come to your boards and get angry or something, wow

well that was one of the funnier things ive seen all day haha, oh man
 

HeroMystic

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Meta knight was 15 people ago. The conversation is about pit.

Since it seems that nobody is putting anymore to say, im calling this 60:40 Mario until somebody can enlighten me on some other things.

Edit: WE ARE ON PIT!! (possibly just ended) not metaknight, not G&W, Pit.
It's even btw.
 

Megapants

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Pit's arrows are much more spammable than fireballs, and Pit can just as easily down B those as Mario can cape arrows, if not easier. Neither player is probably going to camp. It'd be pointless.

And Pit has some pretty good aerials, actually. D-air is probably the worse one, but that's not saying much as it does have uses at times. Uair and Nair do lots of quick damage, have decent priority and can cancel fireballs. Fair and Bair can both kill you pretty easily and come out pretty fast. Mario has the advantage over Pit in the air when using Bair, and when Pit is above Mario. Other than that, it really just depends on who is better at spacing.

Pit can easily be gimped when under the ledge, though. A quick fireball will cancel out the wings and he will go plummeting down. But lots of Pits are probably aware of this and will just recover on the other side of the stage or just prevent themselves from being put in that situation. Mario doesn't really have that many moves to put Pit down there anyways, so doing the latter isn't too mindboggling.

And then there's the shield. Their gimping tool. Pit has a pretty good gimping game because of his multiple jumps and recovery. The shield is just as good as the cape when it comes to gimping, and Mario's recovery is much worse than Pit's. Not that it's bad, just a lot easier to reverse.

If you ask me, it's pretty even. Both can camp, both can gimp, both have good aerial game. But hey, maybe I'm just spouting out nonsense.
 

:mad:

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I'm... sorry, but that wasn't helpful at all. A good deal of it was wrong, and was just common sense. D:

Nair and Uair don't output a lot of damage, at all. Pit gets rarely gimped. With 3 jumps, a glide, and WoI, he'll be just fine. Mario will gimp Pit once per set. Pit will gimp Mario once per game.

The cape is just as good, if not better than the shield. Mainly because Pit's can only reflect. Mario can do so much with his, Capeglide, Cape Teleport, Cape ****. Pit can only hold his for a good deal longer.

And Pit won't be spacing Bair, it's one of his primary kill moves.
 

Inferno3044

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Pit's arrows are much more spammable than fireballs, and Pit can just as easily down B those as Mario can cape arrows, if not easier. Neither player is probably going to camp. It'd be pointless.

And Pit has some pretty good aerials, actually. D-air is probably the worse one, but that's not saying much as it does have uses at times. Uair and Nair do lots of quick damage, have decent priority and can cancel fireballs. Fair and Bair can both kill you pretty easily and come out pretty fast. Mario has the advantage over Pit in the air when using Bair, and when Pit is above Mario. Other than that, it really just depends on who is better at spacing.
So you are saying Mario has a better air game. We are gonna space with bair and try and get you above us so we can uair juggle. Unless the Mario is dumb enough to use an on stage fair, its our advantage in the air. Even if yer below us, we can fastfall nair or dair.

Pit can easily be gimped when under the ledge, though. A quick fireball will cancel out the wings and he will go plummeting down. But lots of Pits are probably aware of this and will just recover on the other side of the stage or just prevent themselves from being put in that situation. Mario doesn't really have that many moves to put Pit down there anyways, so doing the latter isn't too mindboggling.

And then there's the shield. Their gimping tool. Pit has a pretty good gimping game because of his multiple jumps and recovery. The shield is just as good as the cape when it comes to gimping, and Mario's recovery is much worse than Pit's. Not that it's bad, just a lot easier to reverse.

If you ask me, it's pretty even. Both can camp, both can gimp, both have good aerial game. But hey, maybe I'm just spouting out nonsense.
As you said, most Pit players will try to avoid getting hit by a fireball during WoI but Mario can still get them every now and then. You will have to do more than one move to get him under the ledge, meaning going off stage to get him down via fair spike, or stage spike with bair or UpB. Not something to be relied on.

I personally think that Mario's cape is better for gimping. There is no stall in the air when using the mirror so you can bait it so he will keep going down forcing him to use WoI and hopefully get a gimp kill. That probably wont happen too often. Plus there are other shenanigans we can do with the cape therefore making it better. Only real advantage you have over the cape is that you can keep yours out instead of just using it then going away so theres no reason to bait it.

its nice to know that not all mario mains are so silly
Let me repeat what I said. im calling this 60:40 Mario until somebody can enlighten me on some other things. Pit is not a character I know well (I might think of using Pit as a secondary if i can someone to help me), and it sounded like he really didn't have anything on Mario with the lack of information. He does have a combo breaker, but i personally think that nair reliable while WoI isnt. It pushes you back to stop 1 move and if yer juggling with uairs, you can still hit him by keeping momentum. Also it would be dumb to use as a combo breaker on the edge. Now that I have some information, I now see that it is definitely not 60:40 Mario. I guess if anybody says 55:45 Mario, I'll understand, but now it sounds even. Neither character has something very good over the other. I'm sorry teh pwns. I now have some facts about Pit and will admit i was wrong.

Reasonable opinion: 50:50 maybe arguable for 55:45 Mario.
 

:mad:

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He's absolutely right. You did jump the gun and accuse him of being an idiot, which he's clearly not. It's hard to get Pit matchup experience, and he at least backed his statement up with what he already knew.
 

vato_break

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pit can plank harder than we can,he can also camp a bit better,really good recovery(glide,10 jumps,practically can fly for 10 seconds),and his defense is pretty good.Only bad things about pit is his kill power isn't great,kinda light,combo'd easily,slower than mario in the air? and actually geting the kill can be really hard for him. also his voice is rather annoying >___>.gimping pit is kinda hard sometimes too.. 55:45 mario or 50:50
 

Matador

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60:40......

HAHAHAHAHA are you guys serious, please tell me this is a joke or you are just trollin really hard and hoping we'd come to your boards and get angry or something, wow

well that was one of the funnier things ive seen all day haha, oh man
Well, I can't speak for Mr. Inferno here, but I know that this was pretty much my intention with this post:
Edit: Either way, this is a pretty easy matchup. Easy to gimp with fireballs and cape, easy to combo due to his weight and lack of combo breaker, and he has about the same range as us in general despite the disjoints, so that's not a huge issue.

His arrows are good for camping, but cape does well to thwart all attempts with that. And you can SDI out of his multihit attacks pretty easily.

He's also not a powerful killer as long as you keep away from his Bair. 60:40. Arguably 65:35
judging by you being here to defend your character, I think we may have made some headway. You'll have to forgive my enthusiasm. Last two times we tried to get your board's attention, we got absolutely nothing. A couple weeks later, you guys have your own false ratio for the matchup on your chart and I don't recall us ever even discussing it.

Anyway, since you're here, let me just clear up a few things. Fireballs > Arrows in this matchup, mainly because we can safely throw our fireballs while approaching but you can't use your arrows the same way. You're either using it to camp, using it when you have a little space between us, or offstage. Period. You can't follow it up unless you've looped it, and you can't use it for forcing approaches on Mario since we have our cape.

I know you're probably saying that you have TWO reflectors that work just as well, if not, better than cape will. That is incorrect, and Sagemoon can attest to that. Both of Pit's reflectors are dedicated, meaning once it's out, it stays out for quite awhile; long enough to be punished. Since Mario can, and probably WILL be chasing every fireball thrown, the only thing protecting you after you've reflected one is that fireball which is probably fizzling out on the ground at that point; useless. Cape can beat AR rangewise if spaced correctly, we can wait it out to punish the huge cooldown since we're right in front of you, or we can possibly jump over it. Mirror shield is laughable for this use, especially when we're close because of the lag it gets from reflecting something. These may stop us from heavy camping, but they aren't going to stop us from approaching via fireballs by any means.

Since we've already established that Pit CANNOT properly chase his arrows and we know that cape has rather low ending lag, we can infer that Mario will not have these problems. I've already stated that Pit has a few mindgames with his arrows to bait capes and so-forth, but your camp game is severely hindered either way.

In reference to gimping, I believe we're both pretty effective in that department. Fireballs work very well against characters with multiple jumps. Cape outranges everything you've got in the air with the exception of glide attack (God forbid we cape you during your glide with that speed...), Fludd works well to kill some of the distance on your jumps, cape works well to prevent arrows from offstage, I can go on and on. You definitely have options, so it's not particularly easy, but it's not outrageous to think we can get this off during a set once or twice. I'm not completely sure what Pit's offstage tools are other than mirror shield, arrows and WoI -> aerial, but Mario has a few tools as well to prevent being massacred offstage.

Imo, the matchup is pretty even, or slight adv either way. There's not much one character has over the other.
 

Coffee™

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\Only bad things about pit is his kill power isn't great,kinda light,combo'd easily,slower than mario in the air? and actually geting the kill can be really hard for him.
Pit doesn't have trouble killing.

Anyway, since you're here, let me just clear up a few things. Fireballs > Arrows in this matchup, mainly because we can safely throw our fireballs while approaching but you can't use your arrows the same way. You're either using it to camp, using it when you have a little space between us, or offstage. Period. You can't follow it up unless you've looped it, and you can't use it for forcing approaches on Mario since we have our cape.
Arrows aren't used for follow ups. They are simply a way of forcing approaches and racking up damage while refreshing Pit's moveset. Fireballs are annoying but I wouldn't rate them over arrows in this matchup. Pit has a myriad of ways of dealing with Fireballs whether it's by reflecting them, using WoI to neutralize them or simply jabbing them. Also Pit does force Mario to approach, cape or no cape. Mario's fireballs and cape aren't enough to force an approach from Pit.

I know you're probably saying that you have TWO reflectors that work just as well, if not, better than cape will. That is incorrect, and Sagemoon can attest to that. Both of Pit's reflectors are dedicated, meaning once it's out, it stays out for quite awhile; long enough to be punished. Since Mario can, and probably WILL be chasing every fireball thrown, the only thing protecting you after you've reflected one is that fireball which is probably fizzling out on the ground at that point; useless.
AR should not be used as a reflector, unless you're on the move or something. AR is primarily an attack and should be treated as such. If a Pit hits you or your shield with AR correctly there is no way Mario should be able to punish it, unless its like Up B OoS (I think that has invincibility frames or something), but even then that should only work if Pit messes up the spacing on AR. Also Mirror Shield doesn't have much ending lag. It has roughly the same amount as Mario's Cape unless you purposely leave it out longer, maybe less.

Cape can beat AR rangewise if spaced correctly, we can wait it out to punish the huge cooldown since we're right in front of you, or we can possibly jump over it. Mirror shield is laughable for this use, especially when we're close because of the lag it gets from reflecting something. These may stop us from heavy camping, but they aren't going to stop us from approaching via fireballs by any means.
AR outranges Cape. Also refer to my previous quoted answer as far as punishing AR goes. As for approaching with Fireballs, Pit can wingdash backwards, neutralize the fireball and possibly push back Mario thus resetting any possible advantage Mario could have gained from his approach. It's an ok approach but it's not really a big issue like you're making it seem.

Since we've already established that Pit CANNOT properly chase his arrows and we know that cape has rather low ending lag, we can infer that Mario will not have these problems. I've already stated that Pit has a few mindgames with his arrows to bait capes and so-forth, but your camp game is severely hindered either way.
Mario does not seriously limit Pit's ability to camp. He does hinder it a bit because of Cape but to say he seriously limits it is a silly over exaggeration, especially given the amount of unpredictability and manuveurability Arrows actually have.

In reference to gimping, I believe we're both pretty effective in that department. Fireballs work very well against characters with multiple jumps. Cape outranges everything you've got in the air with the exception of glide attack (God forbid we cape you during your glide with that speed...), Fludd works well to kill some of the distance on your jumps, cape works well to prevent arrows from offstage, I can go on and on. You definitely have options, so it's not particularly easy, but it's not outrageous to think we can get this off during a set once or twice. I'm not completely sure what Pit's offstage tools are other than mirror shield, arrows and WoI -> aerial, but Mario has a few tools as well to prevent being massacred offstage.
Mario cannot gimp Pit unless the Pit player is ********. Mario has absolutely no answer to Pit's recovery if Pit chooses to recover really high similarly to Snake as he can use WoI far off stage with little to absolutely no risk of being gimped. Mario on the under hand has to worry about Bair offstage, WoP Fairs, FF Uairs, Mirror Shield and Arrows. Mario also doesn't have much options against a Pit that chooses to ledgecamp him aside from Fireballs so thats one more disadvantage to consider. Also, if you take stages into consideration Mario doesn't gain any advantage in counterpicks against Pit except on Yoshi's Island which should be a ban against most opponents anyway and against Mario it's not even that bad. Pit on the other hand has numerous stages where he can CP Mario.

Imo, the matchup is pretty even, or slight adv either way. There's not much one character has over the other.
Imo Pit wins 60:40 on neutrals and probably better on any CP he chooses.
 

teh_pwns_the

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offstage all of pits aerials except for dair are useful, fair is a really good push to smack somebody against a stage or get them in a place where they cant recover, which would be especially useful against somebody like mario, who doesnt have a very high vertical recovery

i would expect at least one gimp against mario a game, while none from him, since the only real answer to our recovery for you gusy seems to be hitting us out of our WoI, which is pretty much the first thing every pit player learns to avoid

i think WoI ledgestalling would be extremely useful against your UpB as well

id settle for a 55-45 pit advantage
 

Matador

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Pit doesn't have trouble killing.
He certainly isn't killing as fast as Mario here. Not unless the Mario is incapable of avoiding the Bair sweetspot. Even then, Fsmash kills about as early and is a freebie if we normal shield your Fsmash.


Arrows aren't used for follow ups. They are simply a way of forcing approaches and racking up damage while refreshing Pit's moveset. Fireballs are annoying but I wouldn't rate them over arrows in this matchup. Pit has a myriad of ways of dealing with Fireballs whether it's by reflecting them, using WoI to neutralize them or simply jabbing them. Also Pit does force Mario to approach, cape or no cape. Mario's fireballs and cape aren't enough to force an approach from Pit.
True, Mario does have to approach Pit due to the fact that he won't be caping EVERY arrow, but my point about Mario's fireballs was that we COULD use them as an approach method in this matchup despite your two reflectors. Arrows can be used for their normal purposes as well, but now you have to watch for the cape.

The purpose of fireballs in any matchup is to force a punishable action. Since we're chasing the fireball, you'll perform that punishable action to kill the fireball, and we follow-up with our punishment method. It could be jumping, shielding, spotdodging, or even getting hit. The one variable to this that Pit presents is wingdashing, but that's not that big of a deal either. If we throw a fireball and you Wingdash to cancel them out, the situation resets. Neither one of us takes damage. The only side-result is that we're probably a little closer to you. The other perfectly safe response is powershielding.

AR should not be used as a reflector, unless you're on the move or something. AR is primarily an attack and should be treated as such. If a Pit hits you or your shield with AR correctly there is no way Mario should be able to punish it, unless its like Up B OoS (I think that has invincibility frames or something), but even then that should only work if Pit messes up the spacing on AR. Also Mirror Shield doesn't have much ending lag. It has roughly the same amount as Mario's Cape unless you purposely leave it out longer, maybe less.
If Mario DIs out of AR if caught inside and immediately capes, IIRC it should reach Pit's outstretched arm and turn him around for punishment. That, and it has punishable ending lag.

And I was referring to Mirror Shield in the event that it reflects an object, or in this case a fireball. As far as I know, after reflecting, Mirror Shield suffers additional lag until the full reflecting animation is complete. Mario doesn't have this with cape.

AR outranges Cape. Also refer to my previous quoted answer as far as punishing AR goes. As for approaching with Fireballs, Pit can wingdash backwards, neutralize the fireball and possibly push back Mario thus resetting any possible advantage Mario could have gained from his approach. It's an ok approach but it's not really a big issue like you're making it seem.
It's not a gamebreaker, but in a matchup such as this, a reliable approach is key. Mario has one. Pit doesn't...not that I know of.

Mario does not seriously limit Pit's ability to camp. He does hinder it a bit because of Cape but to say he seriously limits it is a silly over exaggeration, especially given the amount of unpredictability and manuveurability Arrows actually have.
Explain. All I know is that he can hold them a bit longer to bait cape, turn around a few times to bring the same effect as DashDancing, or loop them. Other than that, they're pretty limited, especially since it can be caped on reaction in some situations. Others, simply shielded since we don't need to worry about you grabbing us afterward or anything.

Mario cannot gimp Pit unless the Pit player is ********. Mario has absolutely no answer to Pit's recovery if Pit chooses to recover really high similarly to Snake as he can use WoI far off stage with little to absolutely no risk of being gimped. Mario on the under hand has to worry about Bair offstage, WoP Fairs, FF Uairs, Mirror Shield and Arrows. Mario also doesn't have much options against a Pit that chooses to ledgecamp him aside from Fireballs so thats one more disadvantage to consider. Also, if you take stages into consideration Mario doesn't gain any advantage in counterpicks against Pit except on Yoshi's Island which should be a ban against most opponents anyway and against Mario it's not even that bad. Pit on the other hand has numerous stages where he can CP Mario.
That's true, Pit can recover as high as he wants, go under the stage, glide, and a few other things that would seemingly keep Mario from the gimp.

Unfortunately for you, Pit has to come back to the stage. Every character HAS to come back to the stage. It's not a matter of from what angle you come in or how high you do it; it's what weapons you have to defend yourself as you recover. Therein lies the problem with your Snake comparison. Snake has a ton of viable options after recovering high to protect himself from being instantly punished upon landing. Pit has AR and Dair, both are unsafe on Mario's shield. Going under the stage is great too as long as your opponent doesn't catch on quick enough...otherwise you're under the stage waiting for a stagespike when you re-surface. Your safest options appears to be glide, mainly because of the speed and maneuverability that it brings. Even then, Fludd, cape, fireballs, Usmash and aerials can all affect glide in some form or fashion and make Pit vulnerable to a gimp again, except now his arsenal is short a glide.

Against Pit's options, Mario has his cape for arrows though much less effective offstage, fireballs for if you try to come offstage to get us, cape for baiting that Mirror Shield once we're close to the stage, and our upB Stage-Spike. Also keep in mind that our Bair contests with the range of your aerials, and Mario CAN turn around offstage if the situation requires it. You have tools and we have tools. Writing off Mario's gimping ability is a pretty huge mistake, no matter how amazing your recovery is.

Imo Pit wins 60:40 on neutrals and probably better on any CP he chooses.
Despite my responses, I may now be leaning toward 55:45 Pit, to MAYBE 60:40, but pretty doubtful. What're Pit's CPs vs Mario? Ours is Yoshi's or probably a stage with a lower ceiling such as Halberd. Ban is probably Japes.

offstage all of pits aerials except for dair are useful, fair is a really good push to smack somebody against a stage or get them in a place where they cant recover, which would be especially useful against somebody like mario, who doesnt have a very high vertical recovery
It's rather fast though. Fast = harder to punish than slow like Pit's. I do see your point though.

i would expect at least one gimp against mario a game, while none from him, since the only real answer to our recovery for you gusy seems to be hitting us out of our WoI, which is pretty much the first thing every pit player learns to avoid
Not really. It's more about forcing that WoI, which is done with fireballs, Fludd, cape, and aerials. When I say cape, keep in mind that I mean capeglide -> aerial, cape for ledgestalling, caping arrows you may throw back at you, and of course caping you as you try to recover.

i think WoI ledgestalling would be extremely useful against your UpB as well
Probably. Cape can potentially throw off timing and upB can stage-spike in the event that your timing is off.
 

teh_pwns_the

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hmm i dunno about getting hit out of WoI, that normally only happens to scrubs, plus if all else fails we always jsut WoI and go under stage, which even MK cannot catch in time, soooooooooi have a feeling mario cant either
 

fromundaman

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AR should not be used as a reflector, unless you're on the move or something. AR is primarily an attack and should be treated as such. If a Pit hits you or your shield with AR correctly there is no way Mario should be able to punish it, unless its like Up B OoS (I think that has invincibility frames or something), but even then that should only work if Pit messes up the spacing on AR. Also Mirror Shield doesn't have much ending lag. It has roughly the same amount as Mario's Cape unless you purposely leave it out longer, maybe less.

AR outranges Cape. Also refer to my previous quoted answer as far as punishing AR goes. As for approaching with Fireballs, Pit can wingdash backwards, neutralize the fireball and possibly push back Mario thus resetting any possible advantage Mario could have gained from his approach. It's an ok approach but it's not really a big issue like you're making it seem.
You know, while I lack too much matchup experience to comment much on this, you guys claiming that AR is unpunishable is just wrong. You can SDI through it and land behind Pit before he's done doing the move, and punish with just about everything. I KNOW Mario could get a Usmash/Dsmash in that time, probably also a Fsmash.

I usually play this matchup/SDI the AR with Kirby, and know it's usually not long enough time for a grounded hammer, *usually* enough time for an Fsmash, and more than enough for any other smash.



hmm i dunno about getting hit out of WoI, that normally only happens to scrubs, plus if all else fails we always jsut WoI and go under stage, which even MK cannot catch in time, soooooooooi have a feeling mario cant either
You know, WoI isn't all that fast. Sure, you can go under the stage, but I'm pretty sure we can get at least a fireball to the other ledge before you grab it. Also, thanks to fireballs, we wouldn't even have to go all the way to the other side if it looks like you might turn around. WoI doesn't really last long enough for you to wait us out either.
 

Matador

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hmm i dunno about getting hit out of WoI, that normally only happens to scrubs, plus if all else fails we always jsut WoI and go under stage, which even MK cannot catch in time, soooooooooi have a feeling mario cant either
"lol, if MK can't do it, no one can!"

It depends on when Mario catches on. This is a mindgame and mindgames always boil down to the player. If MK thinks you'll do it before you actually start, he's going to catch you. Same deal with Mario for the same reasons Fromundaman described.

Also, no matter how much you try to hide it, WoI is vulnerable offstage. It's not THAT fast and means certain death under most circumstances. All it takes is a ledgedrop FF Dair, ledgedrop fireball, or something to that effect to nick and kill you while you recover. We can be reckless because we know that WoI is purely a defensive maneuver when recovering with it, and attacking out of it is suicide unless you're close enough to the stage.
 

teh_pwns_the

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WoI offers some of the best air mobility in the game, so even if you were to get a fireball to the other ledge before we got there, it wouldnt matter cause we dont have to get on the ledge we jsut have to grab it and it lasts a decent amount of time

ive noticed this in many other boards as well, people tend to underestimate WoI
 

fromundaman

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Right, you have to grab it. I didn't mean the fireball was offstage. We can shoot fireballs so that they just graze the edge, basically, where you'd want to grab it.

Don't get me wrong, WoI is a great move, and has lots of mobility, but here's the thing: It is not the end all recovery move you are making it out to be.
I'm not saying we will always gimp it, because that won't happen. However, saying you just won't get gimped is also unrealistic.
 

Matador

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WoI offers some of the best air mobility in the game, so even if you were to get a fireball to the other ledge before we got there, it wouldnt matter cause we dont have to get on the ledge we jsut have to grab it and it lasts a decent amount of time

ive noticed this in many other boards as well, people tend to underestimate WoI
Get on the ledge =/= Grab the ledge?
 

Inferno3044

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First I want to thank Straked for standing up for me because I don't have much experience in the matchup. I have a friend thats a really good Pit, but now he only does doubles so i dont really get any Pit experience. I do know a bit from just knowing the gameplay of the characters. Now I'm going to clear some things up for everyone because I did get a couple of answers. Note: Anything I don't talk about means I agree.


The reason arrows are so helpful for him is because Pit isn't good when it comes to approaching. Every Pit can be an arrow happy spammer at times and I don't blame them. Arrows are quick, spammable, and can stop an approach from practically every character. It's being overrated though. They can and will be reflected some of the time so you can't rely on it. I do understand that WoI can be helpful, but not as much as you are making it. It gives a tiny bit of knockback and a jump if you do it grounded. Its very reliable as a recovery, but if you do it and aim above the ledge you will be in a freefall state and during that time and the time you are using WoI you cant attack. if you aim for the ledge we can do something about it and stop you. If you say "oh we can go under the stage" not every stage. We can CP Yoshi's or Pokemon Stadium. Also AR isn't that amazing an attack. You stand there with your swords as a barrier. An advantage would be that it can eat away a shield pretty well and if we get hit we are gonna get hit a couple more times refreshing other moves. First of all, it is easy to DI out of. Just hold the direction away from pit and if he is still spinning them punish. If you miss with AR, you are eating an fsmash.



Next, all I've heard from the comments that Pit can outcamp us and is better offstage which is true. There are just a couple of problems though with those. First is that Pit's camping will not have him win the match because he cant really do anything from it. Also. the cape does hinder your camping ability and we can PS, rolldodge, or spotdodge it. Also I wanna put something out about offstage game. YOU HAVE TO GET THEM OFF THE STAGE. You have given nothing about how reliable he is at that. He doesnt have much knockback and it sounds like you are relying heavily on arrows if we are any distance from you. All I do know is that Pit has some very fast smash attacks but im not sure how good knockback they have. Since the Pit mains have not put much talk into talking about their actual combat abilities, im going to say they are mediocre at best until someone says anything. R@vyn, you said Pit doesn't have trouble killing. That alone doesn't mean anything unless you give information.



Until we have more information, it sounds that Mario is better on stage. We can kill better as well. Pit seems to be better at racking up damage though due to multi-hit moves and some arrows will hit us. Mario has better air game because his are quicker and have very minimal lag. I dont know who has better ground game, but Mario has some pretty nice range with his Usmash and Fsmash and has a fast Utilt, Ftilt, jab, and Dsmash plus good OOS options. I do not know what pit can really do. I guess his nair will apply some shield pressure like our dair can do to his shield.


55:45 Mario arguable for 50:50 until i hear about his close up combat skills and ground game.
 

yummynbeefy

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The reason arrows are so helpful for him is because Pit isn't good when it comes to approaching. Every Pit can be an arrow happy spammer at times and I don't blame them. Arrows are quick, spammable, and can stop an approach from practically every character. It's being overrated though. They can and will be reflected some of the time so you can't rely on it.
pit can approach pretty well actually nairs, shfairs, full hop dairs are impossible to punish on a sheild

If you say "oh we can go under the stage" not every stage. We can CP Yoshi's or Pokemon Stadium.
solution:ban yoshis pit is decent on pokemon stadium actually


Next, all I've heard from the comments that Pit can outcamp us and is better offstage which is true. There are just a couple of problems though with those. First is that Pit's camping will not have him win the match because he cant really do anything from it. Also. the cape does hinder your camping ability and we can PS, rolldodge, or spotdodge it. Also I wanna put something out about offstage game. YOU HAVE TO GET THEM OFF THE STAGE. You have given nothing about how reliable he is at that. He doesnt have much knockback and it sounds like you are relying heavily on arrows if we are any distance from you. All I do know is that Pit has some very fast smash attacks but im not sure how good knockback they have.
d-smash is reliable for getting people off the stage it comes out on frame 5 and kills at around 130 or so

Since the Pit mains have not put much talk into talking about their actual combat abilities, im going to say they are mediocre at best until someone says anything. R@vyn, you said Pit doesn't have trouble killing. That alone doesn't mean anything unless you give information.
pit does have problems killing sometimes what is he talking about idk hes not metaknight he cant gimp as well even if he is one of the best gimpers imo



Until we have more information, it sounds that Mario is better on stage. We can kill better as well. Pit seems to be better at racking up damage though due to multi-hit moves and some arrows will hit us.
they are about even in killing damage is about even maybe slightly in pits favor

Mario has better air game because his are quicker and have very minimal lag. I dont know who has better ground game, but Mario has some pretty nice range with his Usmash and Fsmash and has a fast Utilt, Ftilt, jab, and Dsmash plus good OOS options. I do not know what pit can really do. I guess his nair will apply some shield pressure like our dair can do to his shield.
mario most likely does not have the better air game ground game may be close to even but pit has teh air game, nair and uair come out on frame 3 bair comes out on 7 fair has great reach but comes out on 12


55:45 Mario arguable for 50:50 until i hear about his close up combat skills and ground game.
there you go now what is it good sir?
 

DtJ XeroXen

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pit can approach pretty well actually nairs, shfairs, full hop dairs are impossible to punish on shield
...Lol... you think we can't punish your stuff out of shield. Up-B OoS would take care of all of those things... pretty darn well.

Also... you can get juggled pretty easily, and our aerial game is just as good as pit's, btw. Our ground game is way better. Fsmash. That's all I'm gonna say about the ground game.

Let's not forget, Pit has the most annoying voice ever, he's one of those characters that I just go all out on and **** because he sounds so gay. Him and Sonic.
 
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