daisho
Smash Lord
No, 60:40, DK is basically a counter for marth.IMO, Peach vs Donkey Kong is 55:45 DK's favour, but none of the other Peaches seem to agree with me.
As for Marth, I don't know. 55:45 as well?
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The DK Match Up Thread.
- Thread starter Ripple
- Start date
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
Well, I don't know a whole lot about the matchup, so I guess I'll take your word for it.
Ripple
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while I did beat praxis at genesis, it really is a 50-50 match up trust me. DK can't punish peach in almost any situation. you have to beat her by a good ol' fashion beating.
marth is 50-50 or 55-45 DK but idk. I haven't played mike haze yet.
btw I'm back from hawaii so I can now update the thread!
marth is 50-50 or 55-45 DK but idk. I haven't played mike haze yet.
btw I'm back from hawaii so I can now update the thread!
Ive played Mike Haze and 80% of the time ill beat him with a clean 1 stock left. So i would say its in Dk's favor.
chimpact
Smash Lord
Thanks for the input guys.
Ripple
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have you played him recently? he did get 3rd at evo 09
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
yeah he has, mike admits that marth loses to dk, he's lost to every good dk player he's played and normally just counterpicks ddd on them
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
by the way in the next two weeks I'm going to make my dk completely tornado proof
Ripple
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up tilt doesn't work!
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
it does.... twice before you have to refresh it, I gotta ftilt more since you get 4 breaks from ftilt which = ~45% combined with the 21 from utilts is enough to get him into ko range
also working on dsmash for breaking it, kinda weird though
and of course punch/usmash when applicable and dash attacks
EDIT cause of ninja rag post: i was breaking a few of them when I played him, but I need to space a lot better, more practice should do it. this week I'm going to get a couple friends to do 99 stock matches where they just space nados
also working on dsmash for breaking it, kinda weird though
and of course punch/usmash when applicable and dash attacks
EDIT cause of ninja rag post: i was breaking a few of them when I played him, but I need to space a lot better, more practice should do it. this week I'm going to get a couple friends to do 99 stock matches where they just space nados
Utilt only works when done with your back facing the tornado. It works that way since it is much easier to hit with Utilt's 11 or 10 damage sweetspot when facing away from them. Reverse Utilt is a very nice way to beat the tornado with practice. You just do it when they get pretty close and because Utilt is so fast you can do it at the last second and it will still work. It has to be pretty fresh for it to work at all though.
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
i just kept fsmashing (and getting hit because of it) instead of ftilting, i gotta get my ftilt spacing back
Ripple
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looks like we both need to step it up bigfoot. WE MUST REP DK AT ALL COSTS
mikeHAZE
Smash Legend
I HATE YOU JMEXkong
I got nothing but love for ya. <3
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
mike do you always search for your name or just occasionally check the dk boards?
Ripple
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ok guys I'm updating the first post with fox, wario, and bowser and it should be done tomorrow at noonish, maybe even sooner, but no later (dead serious this time). miss anything?
someone start a discussion. wasn't kirby or someone light suggested earlier
someone start a discussion. wasn't kirby or someone light suggested earlier
daisho
Smash Lord
ZSS falco diddy or yoshi plz.
mikeHAZE
Smash Legend
i read 90% of threads on the site daily
MasterCheeze
Smash Journeyman
Good sirs, may we do the Yoshi matchup next? A lot of the guys I play with all have good Yoshis, and I'm inclined to think it's a 50-50 matchup. I need wise input from the rest of you on this. D:
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
I've played bwett a couple of times now, and the only person within 15 minutes of me is one of the crazy yoshi people
it isn't even, 6-4 dk at least, just shield egg camp and don't get usmash, he can't punish ****. spam ftilt, see what he does
it isn't even, 6-4 dk at least, just shield egg camp and don't get usmash, he can't punish ****. spam ftilt, see what he does
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
If you can't space it, SDI up and u-air out of it. Surprised the **** out of t1mmy first time I did it to him.
If you guys want to do the Kirby MU, they just discussed it on the Kirby boards and I gave a huge write up I could re-post here.
btw, who was the DK in t1mmy's pool at Genesis?
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
mth was in timmys pool
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
Just letting you all know that I wrote this from a Kirby player's perspective because it was on their boards and I play both characters. I can write up a different one from DK's perspective later if you want. The reason I asked who t1mmy played in pools was that afterward t1mmy said he might think it to be 60-40 DK favor. Said mth was too good.
Kirby vs. Donkey Kong
DK has traits that Kirbys love (big target, combos fairly easy, has a blind spot below him and in front of him in the air) as well as traits that Kirbys hate (REALLY hard to kill without a gimp, most of his spacing tools are far superior to Kirby's, kills Kirby at ridiculously early percents). The Match-up is full of extremes and lacks common ground, so whoever has the match's momentum in their favor tends to do the best, no matter what tools either side has. Also, out of all of Kirby’s Match-ups this one is the poster child for the phrase “don’t get hit!”
Long range
This range will very likely not happen much in this match-up unless one of the two characters has been sent flying, and after that it will be straight back to mid or close range. DK has no projectile to force an approach from Kirby, but if the Kirby decides to use final cutter they should be aware that DK is one of the most mobile characters in the game (his movement is close to on par with Marth's minus air acceleration and plus a faster Fast-Fall speed) and can close the distance easily to punish. The Kirby can throw it out every once in a blue moon if they can ledge cancel it or use platform mind-games, but in general shouldn't use it. DK can punish HARD for any mistakes.
Even though it isn't a projectile per-say, I'll mention DK's down-b here. The range on this move is about a DK d-tilt length behind him and about 2 d-tilt lengths (!) in front of him. The Kirby player should never assume they are safe on the ground in general proximity of DK. DK can use down-b to pop Kirby into the air for follow-ups at long range, punish spot-dodges and rolls or use it to get Kirby off of him at close range if used correctly. The only saving graces for Kirby with this move are that it doesn't hit anything airborne and is very punishable by things like giant swing if Kirby is in the air before the move hits.
Mid Range
This is going to be where DK is going to try and keep Kirby for a majority of the game. DK's moves in general have a bit of ending lag and are on the linear side, but that won't make them easy to get around. DK's f-tilt out-ranges almost all of Metaknight's move-set to give you an idea. The key here is for the Kirby player to try and vary their responses to his approaches and try to punish anything missed with a grab or combo starting move like u-tilt or in some cases d-tilt. The f-tilt->u-air combo only works through the u-air if DK DI's correctly, but it still puts him in a defensive position without any combo breaker to speak of (he has a few tricks, and I'll get to those later). D-throw also puts him in a bad position due to his weakness to quick attacks from below in the air.
Its easy to say on paper, but in reality its much harder to do. If the DK spaces correctly he can keep Kirby at bay for a long time. F-tilt can be aimed at either an up or down angle and has monster range and comes out pretty quickly (8 frames up close, 9 at the full distance of the move), d-tilt is fast (6 frames close, 7 frames at full distance) and has little ending lag (though it can't be aimed so it is more limited in application than f-tilt), and reverse u-tilt can knock Kirby away if he tries to close in from above. Whats more is that it only takes getting hit around ten times or so with tilts to be put into KO range. At the end of the day, the Kirby player will need to outsmart the DK to get in. Shield-grabs, running spot dodges and low flying aerial antics can do the trick as long as the Kirby isn't predictable about it.
Another thing to be aware of is that most of DK's kill moves are used around this range as well. A fresh f-smash and u-smash can kill around 80%, with d-smash not far behind around 95% (with decent DI and momentum canceling. Without it, it probably closer to 70% and 85% respectively). All of them come out relatively fast for their power. Giant punch also kills at a low percent (just a bit lower than f-smash), with a 9-wind killing around 60% (!) unless the Kirby has really (and I mean REALLY) good DI and momentum canceling. If you don’t DI and momentum cancel, a fresh 9-wind can kill under 50%.
Close Range
This is generally where Kirby wants to be. DK's tools become much more limited at this range, with his standing grab being 8 frames and his jab (tied for his fastest move) being 5 frames. Kirby's grabs allow for follow-ups because of this, and he can put the hurt on DK at lower percents. This is also the general range Kirby needs to be in to score an outright KO, seeing how even Kirby's f-smash is out-ranged by most of DK's moves.
DK isn't completely defenseless at this range however. Though it doesn't hold a candle to his other moves range-wise, DK's jab still has decent range on it and can disrupt a lot of Kirby's attempts to close the distance. DK's d-tilt and u-tilt come out on frame 6 and 5 respectively at close range as well, so even though Kirby out-speeds DK at this range, it isn't by too much. DK also has his grounded up-b and fully charged Giant Punch at this range, and here is where DK's greatest counterattacks come into play. Up-b is slow to come out (first hit-box is on frame 19) and doesn't have much range to it (comparatively), but it has SA on it from frames 10-16. With those frames DK can over-ride just about any attack Kirby can throw at him. The giant punch has similar properties, with the first hit-box on frame 18 but SA frames on 17-20. Both of these move can deal out ~30% damage (less on the up-b with SDI, but Kirby has to be quick about it) and the Giant Punch can kill. Even if the moves don't do full damage, they will reset the positions to DK's advantage again. If the DK player is any good at timing the SA frames, the Kirby player will be vocally cursing the programmer that created them.
Another thing to be aware of is DK's grab game. His grab is slow, but has great range on it (just a tad less than DeDeDe's) and he can put Kirby on his back and cargo carry him around until he breaks out. The cargo tosses can put Kirby in bad positions too, anything ranging from straight up for u-air follow-ups to just off the edge for a quick dair spike. The regular throws aren't bad either, with the back throw and d-throw putting some distance between the characters and resetting DK's spacing game.
Air
This is the most polarizing part of this MU. Either Kirby is at a distinct advantage or disadvantage here, never in between. DK’s bair is one of the best bairs in the game. It has more range than anything Kirby has in the air save for final cutter, comes out fast (on frame 7) and can kill at decent percents if fresh (~120% at long distance, lower if near the blast-line and since DK can’t use it to approach Kirby because of Kirby’s short height, its much more likely that it will be fresh). DK’s u-air is also good, coming out a bit faster than bair (frame 6 just behind DK's head), when fresh killing around 100% (again, lower if near the blast-line) and covering a good portion of DK’s upper body in the process. If Kirby is either behind DK or above him in the air, DK will most likely win out.
If Kirby is in front of or below DK in the air, its an entirely different matter. DK’s dair is the third (second?) most powerful spike in the game, but it doesn’t come out until frame 18, which is more than enough time to capitalize. The move also has a lot of ending lag, so Kirby can bait the attack and then punish with a grab, tilt, or well timed smash even. In front of DK is a bit more complicated, but still a weak point. DK’s options are nair (first hit is on frame 10, but the hit-box is very specific and hard to connect with) fair (first hit is on frame 25, which is WAY more time than Kirby needs to capitalize) Giant punch (which hits on frame 18 if fully charged, but not until frame 25 if not. It is also good to note that DK goes into helpless mode after the punch) and u-air (its hit-box extends a bit in front of DK, but only on the top portion of his body and is easily avoided as Kirby). None of these moves are reliable, so Kirby simply needs to out-speed DK with any of his aerials if he is in the right position to do so. Its also good to note that DK can use his side-b in the air too, but the hit is weak, has relatively little range and is slow.
Off-stage: DK’s Recovery
This is yet another aspect of the MU that is interesting. Kirby’s best bet for a kill is an outright gimp because of DK’s survivability, and at first glance it would seem to be easy to do. Generally speaking one dair, no matter how small the amount of time DK spends in it, is enough to pull off a successful gimp. A smart DK has all the options they need to defend themselves on their way back to the stage though. Off-stage, DK can use fair to cover a large portion of his hurt-box on his way back down to the stage, and it can be dangerous for a Kirby to challenge it if they aren’t close enough at the start of the move. The move either knocks Kirby back with a strong hit, allowing DK time to recover, or spikes Kirby hard, allowing for the same plus an opportunity for DK to gimp. DK can also use side-b in the air to aid his recovery. Although it’s not a very good attack damage and knock-back wise until later percents, DK can use it to stall. If the Kirby gets hit by it, it’s a weak spike, so DK is again in a favorable position to recover. DK’s up-b has a lot of priority on it as well, and covers massive horizontal ground, as well as lasting a long time (long enough so that Kirby won’t likely be able to ledge hog unless the DK is a large distance away from the ledge when he up-bs). The up-b also has invicibility frames on it while in the air, so DK can outright override some attempts at gimps simply by trying to recover. One final note: DK can recover directly to the platform with no lag if he uses up-b at the right time off-stage. This give DK a LOT more options for recovery when there are platforms available. Even with all these tools though, Kirby still only has to pull off a single (on VERY rare occations, two) dair to pull off a successful gimp and should be looking for any opportunity to do so.
Off-stage: Kirby’s Recovery
If the positions are reversed, the off-stage game very much resembles the aerial game. DK will most likely attack with his back turned for easy bair and u-air kills off the sides and top respectively. Kirby needs to be very aware of DK’s position when recovering close to level with the stage as well. DK has three spikes with which to gimp (two being nearly overpowered for how hard they hit) and can recover back to the stage fairly easily even if they miss. Kirby has a lot of off-stage staying power though, so DK will not likely go for the spike unless Kirby wanders too close to the stage without many jumps left. Kirby has a lot of options to deal with DK’s attempts to edge-guard since he has multiple jumps, but the player should be very wary of making a mistake due to it being outright deadly to do so. It should also be noted that recovering is a prime time to attempt a gimp if the Kirby is feeling brave. Dair still works it's magic on DK, and Kirby-cides are an option if Kirby is at a higher percent. The Kirby should be aware however that DK can footstool Kirby after an inhale release, reversing the gimp situation.
KO options
I’ve already gone over DK’s KO options a bit, but I'll go over them in more detail here. F-smash is in general the slowest option DK has (frame 22) and has no set-up on Kirby, but it has even more range on it than DK's f-tilt and a slight disjoint on the tip of his fingers. The move also comes out on frame 8 after a charge, so a punish happy Kirby may find themselves flying if they aren't careful. DK's u-smash is the most situational of his KO options, but can still be useful. Any time Kirby is on a platform above DK is an opportunity for DK to use the move. Unless the move is perfect shielded, it provides enough shield stun to be virtually un-punishable. The move also sends Kirby sliding along the platform and can put Kirby in helpless fall state if he falls off of it, giving DK time to punish. DK can also set this up by using down-b, but it is not guaranteed by any means. DK's d-smash is the weakest of his smash moves knock-back wise, but by far the easiest to use because of its properties. The move hits on both sides of DK and has no sour-spot to speak of, meaning if it hits, it hits hard. DK also has set-ups for this KO move, the most notable being a jab at max range above 100% and an aerial up-b->lagless landing->d-smash. The latter can also rack up a lot of damage before the hit, so its best to be careful when DK has the option available to him.
DK's Giant Punch is one of the most fearsome moves DK has in this match-up, and the Kirby player should be aware AT ALL TIMES how many times he has wound around his arm. The move only really works as a damage racker or a way for DK to get Kirby off of him at anything less than 9 winds. Once DK has wound his arm around 9 times though, the use of the move changes. At this many winds, it turns into one of the most fearsome KO moves in the game. It comes out in 25 frames (18 if DK is winding up when he releases it) and has the potential to kill Kirby under 50%, even with DI. At a full charge, the move loses some power (it becomes just a bit stronger than an f-smash), but gains super armor. With the SA frames, the move can be used as a very deadly counter attack. DK's Giant Punch has no reliable set ups, but it has them none the less. Any time that DK's side-b move plants Kirby into the ground is an opportunity for DK to land this move. DK can also reverse it while charging or in the air, so the Kirby player should never assume that they are safe from it when DK's back is turned.
I'll also mention again here that DK's bair and u-air can kill over 100%. One final thing to note: DK's b-throw can kill at percentages over 150% with DI, but it isn't likely that Kirby will be living that long in this match-up.
Now, on to Kirby’s KO options. With DI and momentum canceling, DK is the heaviest and hardest to KO character in the game. The only way Kirby is going to get a KO under 110% is going to be a gimp. DK will easily be surviving above 160% on average on the stocks that he isn’t gimped. Side KOs work best, with the trusty f-smash and hammer providing the biggest bang. Tippered d-smashes might also set up for gimps even if they don’t kill outright. Kirby shouldn't bother using u-smash unless DK is about 150% though. If the DK is good at DI and momentum canceling, he will simply fall back to the stage as if nothing happened. If Kirby has a chance to gimp, he should take it. If he doesn’t, he will have a very long and arduous road ahead of him trying for that outright KO.
It would probably be good to mention Kirby's DK power here. The range on Kirby's version of giant punch is severely limited compared to its original form, but is just as powerful. 9-wind punches and SA are both transferred to Kirby's version, and both 9-wind and fully charged punches are more powerful KO options than anything else Kirby has save perhaps hammer. Star-shot gimps are good against DK as well though, so it would be up to the Kirby player to decide which ability they would prefer.
Summary: 45-55 Donkey Kong’s advantage
Kirby vs. Donkey Kong
DK has traits that Kirbys love (big target, combos fairly easy, has a blind spot below him and in front of him in the air) as well as traits that Kirbys hate (REALLY hard to kill without a gimp, most of his spacing tools are far superior to Kirby's, kills Kirby at ridiculously early percents). The Match-up is full of extremes and lacks common ground, so whoever has the match's momentum in their favor tends to do the best, no matter what tools either side has. Also, out of all of Kirby’s Match-ups this one is the poster child for the phrase “don’t get hit!”
Long range
This range will very likely not happen much in this match-up unless one of the two characters has been sent flying, and after that it will be straight back to mid or close range. DK has no projectile to force an approach from Kirby, but if the Kirby decides to use final cutter they should be aware that DK is one of the most mobile characters in the game (his movement is close to on par with Marth's minus air acceleration and plus a faster Fast-Fall speed) and can close the distance easily to punish. The Kirby can throw it out every once in a blue moon if they can ledge cancel it or use platform mind-games, but in general shouldn't use it. DK can punish HARD for any mistakes.
Even though it isn't a projectile per-say, I'll mention DK's down-b here. The range on this move is about a DK d-tilt length behind him and about 2 d-tilt lengths (!) in front of him. The Kirby player should never assume they are safe on the ground in general proximity of DK. DK can use down-b to pop Kirby into the air for follow-ups at long range, punish spot-dodges and rolls or use it to get Kirby off of him at close range if used correctly. The only saving graces for Kirby with this move are that it doesn't hit anything airborne and is very punishable by things like giant swing if Kirby is in the air before the move hits.
Mid Range
This is going to be where DK is going to try and keep Kirby for a majority of the game. DK's moves in general have a bit of ending lag and are on the linear side, but that won't make them easy to get around. DK's f-tilt out-ranges almost all of Metaknight's move-set to give you an idea. The key here is for the Kirby player to try and vary their responses to his approaches and try to punish anything missed with a grab or combo starting move like u-tilt or in some cases d-tilt. The f-tilt->u-air combo only works through the u-air if DK DI's correctly, but it still puts him in a defensive position without any combo breaker to speak of (he has a few tricks, and I'll get to those later). D-throw also puts him in a bad position due to his weakness to quick attacks from below in the air.
Its easy to say on paper, but in reality its much harder to do. If the DK spaces correctly he can keep Kirby at bay for a long time. F-tilt can be aimed at either an up or down angle and has monster range and comes out pretty quickly (8 frames up close, 9 at the full distance of the move), d-tilt is fast (6 frames close, 7 frames at full distance) and has little ending lag (though it can't be aimed so it is more limited in application than f-tilt), and reverse u-tilt can knock Kirby away if he tries to close in from above. Whats more is that it only takes getting hit around ten times or so with tilts to be put into KO range. At the end of the day, the Kirby player will need to outsmart the DK to get in. Shield-grabs, running spot dodges and low flying aerial antics can do the trick as long as the Kirby isn't predictable about it.
Another thing to be aware of is that most of DK's kill moves are used around this range as well. A fresh f-smash and u-smash can kill around 80%, with d-smash not far behind around 95% (with decent DI and momentum canceling. Without it, it probably closer to 70% and 85% respectively). All of them come out relatively fast for their power. Giant punch also kills at a low percent (just a bit lower than f-smash), with a 9-wind killing around 60% (!) unless the Kirby has really (and I mean REALLY) good DI and momentum canceling. If you don’t DI and momentum cancel, a fresh 9-wind can kill under 50%.
Close Range
This is generally where Kirby wants to be. DK's tools become much more limited at this range, with his standing grab being 8 frames and his jab (tied for his fastest move) being 5 frames. Kirby's grabs allow for follow-ups because of this, and he can put the hurt on DK at lower percents. This is also the general range Kirby needs to be in to score an outright KO, seeing how even Kirby's f-smash is out-ranged by most of DK's moves.
DK isn't completely defenseless at this range however. Though it doesn't hold a candle to his other moves range-wise, DK's jab still has decent range on it and can disrupt a lot of Kirby's attempts to close the distance. DK's d-tilt and u-tilt come out on frame 6 and 5 respectively at close range as well, so even though Kirby out-speeds DK at this range, it isn't by too much. DK also has his grounded up-b and fully charged Giant Punch at this range, and here is where DK's greatest counterattacks come into play. Up-b is slow to come out (first hit-box is on frame 19) and doesn't have much range to it (comparatively), but it has SA on it from frames 10-16. With those frames DK can over-ride just about any attack Kirby can throw at him. The giant punch has similar properties, with the first hit-box on frame 18 but SA frames on 17-20. Both of these move can deal out ~30% damage (less on the up-b with SDI, but Kirby has to be quick about it) and the Giant Punch can kill. Even if the moves don't do full damage, they will reset the positions to DK's advantage again. If the DK player is any good at timing the SA frames, the Kirby player will be vocally cursing the programmer that created them.
Another thing to be aware of is DK's grab game. His grab is slow, but has great range on it (just a tad less than DeDeDe's) and he can put Kirby on his back and cargo carry him around until he breaks out. The cargo tosses can put Kirby in bad positions too, anything ranging from straight up for u-air follow-ups to just off the edge for a quick dair spike. The regular throws aren't bad either, with the back throw and d-throw putting some distance between the characters and resetting DK's spacing game.
Air
This is the most polarizing part of this MU. Either Kirby is at a distinct advantage or disadvantage here, never in between. DK’s bair is one of the best bairs in the game. It has more range than anything Kirby has in the air save for final cutter, comes out fast (on frame 7) and can kill at decent percents if fresh (~120% at long distance, lower if near the blast-line and since DK can’t use it to approach Kirby because of Kirby’s short height, its much more likely that it will be fresh). DK’s u-air is also good, coming out a bit faster than bair (frame 6 just behind DK's head), when fresh killing around 100% (again, lower if near the blast-line) and covering a good portion of DK’s upper body in the process. If Kirby is either behind DK or above him in the air, DK will most likely win out.
If Kirby is in front of or below DK in the air, its an entirely different matter. DK’s dair is the third (second?) most powerful spike in the game, but it doesn’t come out until frame 18, which is more than enough time to capitalize. The move also has a lot of ending lag, so Kirby can bait the attack and then punish with a grab, tilt, or well timed smash even. In front of DK is a bit more complicated, but still a weak point. DK’s options are nair (first hit is on frame 10, but the hit-box is very specific and hard to connect with) fair (first hit is on frame 25, which is WAY more time than Kirby needs to capitalize) Giant punch (which hits on frame 18 if fully charged, but not until frame 25 if not. It is also good to note that DK goes into helpless mode after the punch) and u-air (its hit-box extends a bit in front of DK, but only on the top portion of his body and is easily avoided as Kirby). None of these moves are reliable, so Kirby simply needs to out-speed DK with any of his aerials if he is in the right position to do so. Its also good to note that DK can use his side-b in the air too, but the hit is weak, has relatively little range and is slow.
Off-stage: DK’s Recovery
This is yet another aspect of the MU that is interesting. Kirby’s best bet for a kill is an outright gimp because of DK’s survivability, and at first glance it would seem to be easy to do. Generally speaking one dair, no matter how small the amount of time DK spends in it, is enough to pull off a successful gimp. A smart DK has all the options they need to defend themselves on their way back to the stage though. Off-stage, DK can use fair to cover a large portion of his hurt-box on his way back down to the stage, and it can be dangerous for a Kirby to challenge it if they aren’t close enough at the start of the move. The move either knocks Kirby back with a strong hit, allowing DK time to recover, or spikes Kirby hard, allowing for the same plus an opportunity for DK to gimp. DK can also use side-b in the air to aid his recovery. Although it’s not a very good attack damage and knock-back wise until later percents, DK can use it to stall. If the Kirby gets hit by it, it’s a weak spike, so DK is again in a favorable position to recover. DK’s up-b has a lot of priority on it as well, and covers massive horizontal ground, as well as lasting a long time (long enough so that Kirby won’t likely be able to ledge hog unless the DK is a large distance away from the ledge when he up-bs). The up-b also has invicibility frames on it while in the air, so DK can outright override some attempts at gimps simply by trying to recover. One final note: DK can recover directly to the platform with no lag if he uses up-b at the right time off-stage. This give DK a LOT more options for recovery when there are platforms available. Even with all these tools though, Kirby still only has to pull off a single (on VERY rare occations, two) dair to pull off a successful gimp and should be looking for any opportunity to do so.
Off-stage: Kirby’s Recovery
If the positions are reversed, the off-stage game very much resembles the aerial game. DK will most likely attack with his back turned for easy bair and u-air kills off the sides and top respectively. Kirby needs to be very aware of DK’s position when recovering close to level with the stage as well. DK has three spikes with which to gimp (two being nearly overpowered for how hard they hit) and can recover back to the stage fairly easily even if they miss. Kirby has a lot of off-stage staying power though, so DK will not likely go for the spike unless Kirby wanders too close to the stage without many jumps left. Kirby has a lot of options to deal with DK’s attempts to edge-guard since he has multiple jumps, but the player should be very wary of making a mistake due to it being outright deadly to do so. It should also be noted that recovering is a prime time to attempt a gimp if the Kirby is feeling brave. Dair still works it's magic on DK, and Kirby-cides are an option if Kirby is at a higher percent. The Kirby should be aware however that DK can footstool Kirby after an inhale release, reversing the gimp situation.
KO options
I’ve already gone over DK’s KO options a bit, but I'll go over them in more detail here. F-smash is in general the slowest option DK has (frame 22) and has no set-up on Kirby, but it has even more range on it than DK's f-tilt and a slight disjoint on the tip of his fingers. The move also comes out on frame 8 after a charge, so a punish happy Kirby may find themselves flying if they aren't careful. DK's u-smash is the most situational of his KO options, but can still be useful. Any time Kirby is on a platform above DK is an opportunity for DK to use the move. Unless the move is perfect shielded, it provides enough shield stun to be virtually un-punishable. The move also sends Kirby sliding along the platform and can put Kirby in helpless fall state if he falls off of it, giving DK time to punish. DK can also set this up by using down-b, but it is not guaranteed by any means. DK's d-smash is the weakest of his smash moves knock-back wise, but by far the easiest to use because of its properties. The move hits on both sides of DK and has no sour-spot to speak of, meaning if it hits, it hits hard. DK also has set-ups for this KO move, the most notable being a jab at max range above 100% and an aerial up-b->lagless landing->d-smash. The latter can also rack up a lot of damage before the hit, so its best to be careful when DK has the option available to him.
DK's Giant Punch is one of the most fearsome moves DK has in this match-up, and the Kirby player should be aware AT ALL TIMES how many times he has wound around his arm. The move only really works as a damage racker or a way for DK to get Kirby off of him at anything less than 9 winds. Once DK has wound his arm around 9 times though, the use of the move changes. At this many winds, it turns into one of the most fearsome KO moves in the game. It comes out in 25 frames (18 if DK is winding up when he releases it) and has the potential to kill Kirby under 50%, even with DI. At a full charge, the move loses some power (it becomes just a bit stronger than an f-smash), but gains super armor. With the SA frames, the move can be used as a very deadly counter attack. DK's Giant Punch has no reliable set ups, but it has them none the less. Any time that DK's side-b move plants Kirby into the ground is an opportunity for DK to land this move. DK can also reverse it while charging or in the air, so the Kirby player should never assume that they are safe from it when DK's back is turned.
I'll also mention again here that DK's bair and u-air can kill over 100%. One final thing to note: DK's b-throw can kill at percentages over 150% with DI, but it isn't likely that Kirby will be living that long in this match-up.
Now, on to Kirby’s KO options. With DI and momentum canceling, DK is the heaviest and hardest to KO character in the game. The only way Kirby is going to get a KO under 110% is going to be a gimp. DK will easily be surviving above 160% on average on the stocks that he isn’t gimped. Side KOs work best, with the trusty f-smash and hammer providing the biggest bang. Tippered d-smashes might also set up for gimps even if they don’t kill outright. Kirby shouldn't bother using u-smash unless DK is about 150% though. If the DK is good at DI and momentum canceling, he will simply fall back to the stage as if nothing happened. If Kirby has a chance to gimp, he should take it. If he doesn’t, he will have a very long and arduous road ahead of him trying for that outright KO.
It would probably be good to mention Kirby's DK power here. The range on Kirby's version of giant punch is severely limited compared to its original form, but is just as powerful. 9-wind punches and SA are both transferred to Kirby's version, and both 9-wind and fully charged punches are more powerful KO options than anything else Kirby has save perhaps hammer. Star-shot gimps are good against DK as well though, so it would be up to the Kirby player to decide which ability they would prefer.
Summary: 45-55 Donkey Kong’s advantage
daisho
Smash Lord
Not much to say about kirby.
DK outranges him everywhere. D tilt is great at spacing. Bair great for aerials.
If kirby misses a grab he is very punishable.
DK kills kirby under 100
DK should not ever recover low if he can help it.
60-40 DK.
DK outranges him everywhere. D tilt is great at spacing. Bair great for aerials.
If kirby misses a grab he is very punishable.
DK kills kirby under 100
DK should not ever recover low if he can help it.
60-40 DK.
ZxChrono
Smash Journeyman
That is what I was talking about the other day with some friends about Dk's grab range. I knew I read it up somewhere but couldn't remember where. Here it is again to refresh my memory. Nice post, I agree with a lot of it and kirbys little grab combo he has on us is very annoying. I think the most annoying move for me when fighting kirby is probably his dair and uair.
daisho
Smash Lord
I heard people say that but i also heard people say that its smaller.
ZxChrono
Smash Journeyman
Well I read it somewhere on the smash boards a while ago but I don't remember where it was and now it's referenced again. I don't know what to believe anymore X_X. I will post some vids I have against a kirby in the video thread.
Luigi player
Smash Master
In tactical discussion somewhere is a thread about grab ranges.
I think Dededes was 5.9 (whatever), Charizards 5.8 and DKs 5.5... And yeah it is smaller. You notice it by playing DK and D3.
And about the Kirby matchup...
I think Dededes was 5.9 (whatever), Charizards 5.8 and DKs 5.5... And yeah it is smaller. You notice it by playing DK and D3.
And about the Kirby matchup...
Basically this.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
Underlined portion fixed.
Yeah, it can be a straight-forward match-up. I've found platforms to be amazing for the MU though. They give lag-less up-b recovery options to help avoid dair gimps, give protection from Kirby's air game and a lot of other nifty things.
daisho
Smash Lord
Well he can do that but its rare. I meant kirby should die before 100 like 2/3 times or more.Underlined portion fixed.
Yeah, it can be a straight-forward match-up. I've found platforms to be amazing for the MU though. They give lag-less up-b recovery options to help avoid dair gimps, give protection from Kirby's air game and a lot of other nifty things.
Basically with DK always DI towards the stage if you can. Try not to get your second jump taken away. and you will avoid gimps. CERTAINLY do not do what I did in all my deaths in the match against triple R on my video thread... link is here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzrgHfunOQc
I played another kirby yesterday (1857 points on the ladder) and he barely beat me both games... i should have won. Avoiding Dair gimps is pretty easy. Just make sure you DI the F smash if you get it and you won't have trouble.
I played a good Kirby (MogX) this past Sunday. Its defiantly in Dk's favor.
Even though I lost, i realized its not so much that Kirby is better, but rather I just got out played.
60:40 in DK's favor. Nothing more though.
Even though I lost, i realized its not so much that Kirby is better, but rather I just got out played.
60:40 in DK's favor. Nothing more though.