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The DK Match Up Thread.

Commander_Beef

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lasers keep all his moves extremely fresh though.
D*** forgot about that...just remember that in general...not just for us DK's.
If Fox tries to counterpick Halberd...he'll be in for a surprise. We're just as good on there.
If we're trying to get off the ledge, he can just up B to the lagless motion on the other side of the stage. Donkey Kong camps real well under the platform too. Just keep up throwing him or cargo up-throwing him under it and you should get in a nice camped 30% on him.
Our up smash kills real early there too, but what are the chances of us landing it....? -_- seriously.
 

Ragnar0k

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lol I love halberd. It's my counterpick in teams with my friend's snake. The last tournament I went to I buried a MK that had 50% once he was in the ground, stood on top of him charging up smash for like 1/4 of a second and released it when he popped out and he died. Later that match I SA punched that same MK out of the laser because he was about to SDI out and he died. lulz
 

The Pope

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I really don't know what else we can add to the Fox discussion. We could ask people in the Fox boards for input if anything. We might as well talk about Wario if there's nothing left to add.
 

Commander_Beef

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lol I love halberd. It's my counterpick in teams with my friend's snake. The last tournament I went to I buried a MK that had 50% once he was in the ground, stood on top of him charging up smash for like 1/4 of a second and released it when he popped out and he died. Later that match I SA punched that same MK out of the laser because he was about to SDI out and he died. lulz
Too good lol.
It's god that Donkey Kong has many great stages.
Yoshi's Island, Luigi's Mansion, Halberd, Brinstar, Jungle Japes and even Pictochat...<---it has the same slope as Yoshi's Island for our upB's. We can also cargo while those side spikes are there lol.
 

Darknid

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anyways fox isn't a very complicated character, I think we're done with this one.
 

thrillagorilla

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Only thing I can think of that hasn't been said is that his jab sets up for grabs, and he can jab and d-smash out of dair at mid to high percents. The d-smash is irritating to deal with, seeing as if you are expecting an up-smash it can screw with your DI and get you off stage in a position to be shine spiked. DK can deal with Fox's attempts to gimp really well, but if we are in the wrong place at the wrong time it can be a pain.
 

The Pope

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Ripple, try to update the 1st post with the Fox data.

I guess next is Wario. I've never really had any problems with Wario in singles because I've never played one that can do the chaingrab all the way. I'd assume if I did fight one who could do it to 110%, the match would definitely be very difficult.

Chaingrab aside, Wario is very good at camping. Even though he doesn't have a projectile, his air camping game can really become annoying if you don't know how to handle it. All of Wario's aerials are good. That's mainly due to the fact that they can be used to approach safely due to his floatiness and that he can actually kill with 3 out of 5 of his arials: the uair, the dair, and the bair. I believe they are in the correct order from best to worse in terms of killing at lower percents.

He will approach mainly with dair's because he can manuever it around your shield because of his aerial mobility. Don't assume that he will always approach you this way because he can pop in and out with fair and bair and escape a counterattack if he's good. Nair has so little knockback that it can be used to set up combos. Actually, he can use all his aerials to set up combos. With DK being the way he is in terms of size, we will eventually get comboed.

Our bair and up angled f-tilt can easily swat down Wario with good spacing and timing. Our grab game with Wario is also beast because we can kill Wario from a grab at decent percent. Since Wario is cursed with bad aerial release frames, we can grab Wario at 90% and grab release him into a sliding up smash (and I believe a aerial Giant Punch). Normal approaching (bair, f-tilt, d-tilt, grounded up b) can be used on Wario with minimal threat, so you don't need to play so gay like you would with Olimar or Dedede. Just try not to get grabbed just in case of the chaingrab. Also, Bite can be annoying at times too because it can absorb a hit with super armor and suck you in. A couple f-tilts approaches can lead to decent damage from Wario with Bite.

Beware of Wario's killing potential because its almost as beast as ours. F-Smash and uair will be the two major kill moves you need to look out for, f-smash especially because it does have super armor (not exactly sure on what frames). F-tilt and the fart are going to be your next moves to watch out for. F-tilt can kill you at 130% at the edge if you don't expect it and the fart after a minute can catch you by surprise. A fully charged fart will start making you think twice about approaching at times (think about how other characters play against us when we have a Giant Punch charged). Also, Wario could edgeguard us pretty well if you aren't skilled enough to get around his aerials.

Personally, I think this matchup is 55:45 in Wario's favor. Add the chaingrab to the equation, I'd go with 60:40 in Wario's favor.
 

Jmex

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Ripple, try to update the 1st post with the Fox data.

I guess next is Wario. I've never really had any problems with Wario in singles because I've never played one that can do the chaingrab all the way. I'd assume if I did fight one who could do it to 110%, the match would definitely be very difficult.

Chaingrab aside, Wario is very good at camping. Even though he doesn't have a projectile, his air camping game can really become annoying if you don't know how to handle it. All of Wario's aerials are good. That's mainly due to the fact that they can be used to approach safely due to his floatiness and that he can actually kill with 3 out of 5 of his arials: the uair, the dair, and the bair. I believe they are in the correct order from best to worse in terms of killing at lower percents.

He will approach mainly with dair's because he can manuever it around your shield because of his aerial mobility. Don't assume that he will always approach you this way because he can pop in and out with fair and bair and escape a counterattack if he's good. Nair has so little knockback that it can be used to set up combos. Actually, he can use all his aerials to set up combos. With DK being the way he is in terms of size, we will eventually get comboed.

Our bair and up angled f-tilt can easily swat down Wario with good spacing and timing. Our grab game with Wario is also beast because we can kill Wario from a grab at decent percent. Since Wario is cursed with bad aerial release frames, we can grab Wario at 90% and grab release him into a sliding up smash (and I believe a aerial Giant Punch). Normal approaching (bair, f-tilt, d-tilt, grounded up b) can be used on Wario with minimal threat, so you don't need to play so gay like you would with Olimar or Dedede. Just try not to get grabbed just in case of the chaingrab. Also, Bite can be annoying at times too because it can absorb a hit with super armor and suck you in. A couple f-tilts approaches can lead to decent damage from Wario with Bite.

Beware of Wario's killing potential because its almost as beast as ours. F-Smash and uair will be the two major kill moves you need to look out for, f-smash especially because it does have super armor (not exactly sure on what frames). F-tilt and the fart are going to be your next moves to watch out for. F-tilt can kill you at 130% at the edge if you don't expect it and the fart after a minute can catch you by surprise. A fully charged fart will start making you think twice about approaching at times (think about how other characters play against us when we have a Giant Punch charged). Also, Wario could edgeguard us pretty well if you aren't skilled enough to get around his aerials.

Personally, I think this matchup is 55:45 in Wario's favor. Add the chaingrab to the equation, I'd go with 60:40 in Wario's favor.
I 2nd this... Really good write up.
 

itsthebigfoot

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@ the pope

a few things are wrong with that post

first, we can air release wario into a grounded punch, fsmash and dsmash as well, you can kill with a grab by the ledge at 50, or at least do 20-30%

second, wario only cgs us to 105, after that it stops, and he can't do it on slopes, so cp places with slopes

third, you should NEVER, EVER shield against a good wario in the air, free bite

fourth, their main ko moves will be punishing farts, then fsmash and uair

fifth, utilt is a lot better than ftilt for walling wario

and finally, you can gimp wario, it helps, hit where his bike will be
 

Luigi player

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I'm more scared of nearly fully charged farts than from the fully charged one... Because it's so fast and way stronger. Then when it's fully charged I feel safer.

I have to try the fsmash and punch against a grab released Wario again since last time I tested it he could always jump away before he got hit...

... okay it really works I wonder what the **** I did last time. ^^'

Also I don't think you have to really worry the ftilt, because it's not that fast and if you're not at the edge it will only kill you at really really high %. I'd be more worried of fsmash since it's so fast (and strong).
 

CELTiiC

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I played a decently good Wario last night so I mine as well share my two cents. I found U-tilt a great way to keep Wario away from the top. Also try to punish Wario's bike recovery, if you can get to him while he's on the bike that's almost always a free KO. When I played that Wario i got an up b on him while he was on the bike and I gimped him at 15%. Also well spaced b-airs give Wario some trouble. Watch out for Waft that thing kills DK earlier than usual. I didn't really pay much attention to the Wario side just the DK side so I can't really say much, besides saying don't get grabbed.

From my experience, this match-up is 55:45 Wario IMO.
 

The Pope

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@ the pope

a few things are wrong with that post

first, we can air release wario into a grounded punch, fsmash and dsmash as well, you can kill with a grab by the ledge at 50, or at least do 20-30%

second, wario only cgs us to 105, after that it stops, and he can't do it on slopes, so cp places with slopes

third, you should NEVER, EVER shield against a good wario in the air, free bite

fourth, their main ko moves will be punishing farts, then fsmash and uair

fifth, utilt is a lot better than ftilt for walling wario

and finally, you can gimp wario, it helps, hit where his bike will be
Thanks for the add ons and corrections Bigfoot. I wasn't so sure about the chaingrab damage amount and I guess I was off by 5%. I never bothered to test if he could get air released in an fsmash and dsmash. Now that I know, if I get him at the ledge, he's getting a punch or an fsmash.
 

The Pope

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I was talking to Bum yesterday about the Wario chaingrab and he thinks that it isn't real. He says that anyone that ever tries to do it on him, he eventually escapes it. This happens to me as well whenever I fight a Wario, the rare chance of that.

I'm assuming West Coasters can elaborate on this seeing as how you guys have way more Wario's than the Midwest and the East Coast.

In terms of counterpcik stages, I'd probably go with Yoshi's Island, Delphino Plaza, and Lylat Cruise. I wouldn't take a Wario on Final Destination because his camping will get to you there.
 

mountain_tiger

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I was talking to Bum yesterday about the Wario chaingrab and he thinks that it isn't real. He says that anyone that ever tries to do it on him, he eventually escapes it. This happens to me as well whenever I fight a Wario, the rare chance of that.

I'm assuming West Coasters can elaborate on this seeing as how you guys have way more Wario's than the Midwest and the East Coast.

In terms of counterpcik stages, I'd probably go with Yoshi's Island, Delphino Plaza, and Lylat Cruise. I wouldn't take a Wario on Final Destination because his camping will get to you there.
Allegedly, the frame window in which they can do it is tiny. Something like 4 frames to do the turn-around grab necessary. Thus, I'd imagine only really, really good Warios would be able to do it.

But even with no chaingrab, it's still around 55:45 for Wario.
 

thrillagorilla

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fiction is the only one that does it consistently
He must have gotten better at it then. I was getting out left and right at tourney play in WA a little while back. I've also gotten out by SDIing up and buffering an air-dodge. It gets rid of that "heavy" landing animation that gets DK to stick out his rear-end to get grabbed again. I want to test it out to see if it really does work and at what percent, but my regular testing partner has been busy. Anyone want to try?
 

ook

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The wario around here (who is the best player in IL) can usually get about 50-60% before I get out by rolling.
Which, while not a full stocks-worth, is still a busload of damage.


I think he's practiced it, cause I play him a lot :urg:
 

Cyphus

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wario can buffer a DJ and escape grab release F.Smash or 9 winds.
DK has guaranteed:
-step d.smash
-giant punch
-glide upsmash (kills at ~90%)
-upair-upair/uptilt combos (works good at low percents) for most damage
 

daisho

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wario can buffer a DJ and escape grab release F.Smash or 9 winds.
DK has guaranteed:
-step d.smash
-giant punch
-glide upsmash (kills at ~90%)
-upair-upair/uptilt combos (works good at low percents) for most damage
Im not positive but I'm pretty sure Big O tested this extensively. At least for F smash, not sure of 9 wind.
 

mountain_tiger

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FSmash won't work. He can just about get out with his bike. On the plus side, you CAN get a free Giant Punch or USmash.
 

Jmex

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I know forward smash works but it seems harder to do it vs a punch or an up smash. =\
 

Luigi player

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wario can buffer a DJ and escape grab release F.Smash or 9 winds.
DK has guaranteed:
-step d.smash
-giant punch
-glide upsmash (kills at ~90%)
-upair-upair/uptilt combos (works good at low percents) for most damage
If you do utilt he can bite you before the utilt ends... >_> a computer just did that to me, but who besides cpus would think of that...

He could also punish the uair with his dair... (probably other aerials too, but dair does the most damage (don't know if uair would work))


So maybe it's best to just fsmash or punch him (if you've charged it) for the most damage. At least those are the safest options.
 

itsthebigfoot

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FSmash won't work. He can just about get out with his bike. On the plus side, you CAN get a free Giant Punch or USmash.
I think fsmash is fast enough, but even if it isn't, once they know they can get hit by a punch/usmash they're not going to spam jump, just save fsmash for your 3rd/4th grab release. especially since its only purpose is dealing damage to keep the punch fresh

oh yeah, and I wanna put this down before I forget

against game and watch, utilt goes through all his aerials and comes out in half the time
 

Jmex

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^ Ill keep that in mind. I always forget which one to use. Up smash or up tilt.
 

Big O

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FSmash won't work. He can just about get out with his bike. On the plus side, you CAN get a free Giant Punch or USmash.
Lol I never thought about using bike to escape. I tried up b and jumping in every direction and nothing would work. I just tried this out since it seemed like it would work but the bike does work either. In fact if Wario spams bike you will knock him off of it and Wario off stage with no bike is probably a lost stock. Especially since DK can use the bike to edgeguard him too.
 

The Pope

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Lol I never thought about using bike to escape. I tried up b and jumping in every direction and nothing would work. I just tried this out since it seemed like it would work but the bike does work either. In fact if Wario spams bike you will knock him off of it and Wario off stage with no bike is probably a lost stock. Especially since DK can use the bike to edgeguard him too.
So you're saying that Wario can indeed pull out his bike before we hit him with a fsmash? If that's true, you're also saying that he will get hit regardless?
 

Big O

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Hell that's good enough for me. Edgeguarding him will be a lot easier at lower percents because he can't rely on his bike anymore for recovery if a Wario tries to pull a bike out. Great find Big O.
Lol lets just hope they keep thinking they can bike out of it. Wario's chaingrab is too gay so we need everything we can get to somewhat even the odds.
 

daisho

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Lol lets just hope they keep thinking they can bike out of it. Wario's chaingrab is too gay so we need everything we can get to somewhat even the odds.
Big O, they can use bike to get out of it. The timing is really strict. So they should just keep trying until they get it right. ;)
 

The Pope

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Big O, they can use bike to get out of it. The timing is really strict. So they should just keep trying until they get it right. ;)
As long as someone can confirm testing on this, we'll leave it as "up in the air" for now. If its confirmed that he can actually escape from fsmash with the bike, I'm pretty sure Wario's won't be using it because they know we have 3 other moves that can kill him just the same, usmash, dsmash, and giant punch.
 

daisho

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As long as someone can confirm testing on this, we'll leave it as "up in the air" for now. If its confirmed that he can actually escape from fsmash with the bike, I'm pretty sure Wario's won't be using it because they know we have 3 other moves that can kill him just the same, usmash, dsmash, and giant punch.
Read the wink!
 

The Pope

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We should start thinking about the new character we should be discussing next week. I saw since we started off with Fox and then went onto Wario, we should pick another mid to low tier character and then go back to a top or high tier.

I'd say Mario or Bowser. Just something to think about until Monday or Tuesday. Remember, we're still on Wario so let all the info trickle in and marinate before we move on.
 

Darknid

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We should start thinking about the new character we should be discussing next week. I saw since we started off with Fox and then went onto Wario, we should pick another mid to low tier character and then go back to a top or high tier.

I'd say Mario or Bowser. Just something to think about until Monday or Tuesday. Remember, we're still on Wario so let all the info trickle in and marinate before we move on.
Even though he has little rep you should get Bowser out of the way because he ***** people who don't know the matchup and it doesn't take much time to explain it.
 
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