The end of Casual vs. Competitive Debates (Request Sticky)

[Spellman]

The better player will still always win. Remember, wavedashing and l-canceling were a thing of Melee. Brawl seems to be a lot more about being smarter, taking time to think, better spacing, etc.

It's like a game of chess...chess in itself might not take technical skill to play (all you do is lift pieces), but you gotta be pretty **** smart with it to play it competitively.

Yeah, however, it's true that the "casual" player has all the tools now to stand a chance, but they (all of us) need the experience. It's all about practice now.

It's still going to take just as much hard work to get good at the game regardless, there is just one less mental block I think.

 

[Itakio]

I'm a semi-competitive gamer, but I prefer honor over victory. I try not to edge hog people and I destroy them with my fists instead. Winning isn't everything, especially if there's no prize. Tournaments are a different story.

Actually, there is a prize, even when you aren't playing for money. You get the title of being the best.

And why don't you edgehog people? If they call it cheap or whatever, just remind them that they can do it themselves. I guess it doesn't really matter if it's only between you and your friends but if you ever go to tournaments, you will more than likely be dominated by edgehogging since (I'm assuming) you haven't been forced play the edgehog ingredient added into the mix.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, however, it's true that the "casual" player has all the tools now to stand a chance, but they (all of us) need the experience. It's all about practice now.

It's still going to take just as much hard work to get good at the game regardless, there is just one less mental block I think.

Then wouldn't that fact make it more competitive, as there will be a bigger competitive scene?

I see what you're saying, but being technical isn't synonymous with playing competitively.

I mained Peach in Melee and I've won a pretty good sum of money doing so..I hardly used any techniques at all.

 

[Spellman]

Then wouldn't that fact make it more competitive, as there will be a bigger competitive scene?

I see what you're saying, but being technical isn't synonymous with playing competitively.

I mained Peach in Melee and I've won a pretty good sum of money doing so..I hardly used any techniques at all.

Nah I know, competitive players are simply someone who plays at tournaments, regardless of how you do it. You don't even have to be very good really, but maybe more people will be turned onto tournaments now.

But I see we're on the same page here, I was just throwing in my two cents.

 

[xbrinkx]

I was a n00b (I hate that use) once. Every time my friend got me locked in a combo I said, "CHEAP!!!!1!!11!1!!" I didn't know about the competitive scene or advanced techniques. I was just a simple casual player, building up mental rules. Now I look back on it and think, "Man, was I an idiot." I recently got in a match with my friend after a looong time and I won several times. I'm gettin' good. ^.^

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

If I'm not "playing to win" then am I playing to lose?

This guy makes about as much sense as a submarine screen door.

 

[Deleted member]

If you're not playing to win, it simply means you're not utilizing all that you can to beat your opponent.

 

[Itakio]

Usually if you aren't playing to win, you're playing to improve or just for fun, or both, I guess.

 

[Losnar]

Actually, there is a prize, even when you aren't playing for money. You get the title of being the best.

And why don't you edgehog people? If they call it cheap or whatever, just remind them that they can do it themselves. I guess it doesn't really matter if it's only between you and your friends but if you ever go to tournaments, you will more than likely be dominated by edgehogging since (I'm assuming) you haven't been forced play the edgehog ingredient added into the mix.

Title of being the best isn't considered a prize to everyone. You clearly missed my point. Winning isn't everything.

Actually my friends and I used to edgehog each other, but we all decided we enjoyed the KOs much more when we didn't. So we all decided to stop and it actually improved the fun factor of the game for all of us.

Like I said tournies are different and everything goes. Pay attention.

Honor>Victory

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Then why not call it trying your best? Playing to win just merely makes one think that you're playing with the goal of winning in mind. Calling this view on things Playing to win is almost arrogant in assuming that if you aren't doing what the above told you to, you're not "playing to win".

But hey, what do I know, I'm only a casual scrub.

 

[RedMage8BT]

lol, items improve the fun factor too, but there's a reason people play without them.

 

[Deleted member]

Calling it trying your best doesn't take into consideration mental issues with the game mechanics.

Losnar and co. are an example of this. They could be trying their best to win, but they don't edge-hog.

Playing to win implies that you are simply trying to win and doing everything in your power to do so.

 

[Itakio]

Title of being the best isn't considered a prize to everyone. You clearly missed my point. Winning isn't everything.

Actually my friends and I used to edgehog each other, but we all decided we enjoyed the KOs much more when we didn't. So we all decided to stop and it actually improved the fun factor of the game for all of us.

Like I said tournies are different and everything goes. Pay attention.

Honor>Victory

How is it not a prize?

Okay then. I guess this article doesn't apply to you since the "prize" isn't really worth the loss of fun.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

How do you get doing everything in your power to win from Playing to Win? Again, whenever I see that, I'm assuming the person means that you're playing the game for again, the ultimate goal of winning. And how does trying your best not "take into consideration mental issues with the game mechanics?"

Fancy talk for exploit everything to hell?

 

[Itakio]

Fancy talk for exploit everything to hell?

There should be no shame in exploiting anything when money is on the line.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

*sigh*

Moneyz. The root of all evil alongside pure arrogance.

I suppose you has a point. If there's money involved, then honor be ****ed.

Then again, that mentality will kill any fun (in my humble opinion) and leave you with something almost akin to a chore (but slightly more palatable.)

 

[Itakio]

Yeah, but fun doesn't matter in tournaments depending on how much money is at stake. Regardless, I myself find playing the game using every exploit there is to be very entertaining.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Well that's mainly where the big chasm between casuals and competitives lie. Competitive players think that it's fun to exploit and do everything in their power (no matter how broken the former may think it is) to win, short of punching their partner in the face (that's bad sportsmanship, LOL)

Casuals on the other hand really hate being on the recieving end of something that is only escapable by literally zealous dedication to the game and decide that such things are either cheap, broken, or just plain bullspit. Casuals think it's fun to just play the game normally, minus the thumb killing exploits and such. I believe casuals could throw their own tourney and be just as successful, but throw moneyz into the equation...

I dunno. I'm a casual through and through, and you play the way you choose to play. Personally, I love my playstyle because I have no shortage of like-minded people to play across a broad spectrum.

 

[JoJoRukus]

Sometimes you can be playing to win, and you will still lose, simply based on your lack of knowledge compared to your opponent. You can know 90 percent of EVERYTHING in Smash, and you could still end up losing if you are up against an equally zealous opponent with 95 percent knowledge.

In reality, a player can be a competetive player, but if he knows jack about Smash it won't make a difference. He'll just throw his controller a whole lot. As for glitches, I believe in a lot of games they are frowned upon, but since Smash isn't a "real" fighting game (I've heard people describe it as such... its just different than most of the regurgitated formulas), maybe it just doesn't attract as many people that complain about them for tournament play. I don't really know, I just play competetively and don't do extensive research on techniques.

 

[IronGorilla]

I absolutely love the "honor" argument. Honestly, it's the worst possible argument out there.

First of all, the only definition of honor that may apply is : "honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions". If that is the case, the this article about scrubs is ENTIRELY correct. They create rules and boundaries that they only set for themselves and expect everyone to follow.

Things like edgehogging, for example. Completely fair. Both parties can do it, and if one chooses not to, then they are affirming this definition of scrub where they are not doing everything in their power to win. They are doing what they believe is honorable, or fair, because they have themselves so fixed in their ruleset that they cannot expand their game and win.

I love edgehogging. It's fun. I do it all the time. So does everyone I play against.

Remember, it's a fighting game where the object is to KO your opponent.

By any means.

 

[Itakio]

Agreed. And edgehogging is the most satisfying way to kill someone in Smash for me. Watching their hopes of grabbing the ledge get shattered as they fall to their doom is just priceless.

 

[Takeshi245]

I absolutely love the "honor" argument. Honestly, it's the worst possible argument out there.

First of all, the only definition of honor that may apply is : "honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions". If that is the case, the this article about scrubs is ENTIRELY correct. They create rules and boundaries that they only set for themselves and expect everyone to follow.

Things like edgehogging, for example. Completely fair. Both parties can do it, and if one chooses not to, then they are affirming this definition of scrub where they are not doing everything in their power to win. They are doing what they believe is honorable, or fair, because they have themselves so fixed in their ruleset that they cannot expand their game and win.

I love edgehogging. It's fun. I do it all the time. So does everyone I play against.

Remember, it's a fighting game where the object is to KO your opponent.

By any means.

I'll admit the honor argument is a very bad one since it's quite easy to refute. The irony of this thread is that its intent was to end debates like these even though it's starting such debates right now!

 

[G-X]

Title of being the best isn't considered a prize to everyone. You clearly missed my point. Winning isn't everything.

You missed Sirlin's point: If you don't play to win, you will lose. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it.

 

[Spellman]

As long as its not banned from competitive play, it's allowed to be used in competitive play. The only honor there needs to be is honoring the rules of the competition. So no pulling out peoples controllers or spiking peoples drinks with rat poison before the match. That second one doesn't have to be covered by the tournament committee, the law takes care of that one.

 

[Mailman]

As long as its not banned from competitive play, it's allowed to be used in competitive play. The only honor there needs to be is honoring the rules of the competition. So no pulling out peoples controllers or spiking peoples drinks with rat poison before the match. That second one doesn't have to be covered by the tournament committee, the law takes care of that one.

Nice.

So basically, how you play is how you play. Honor has an interesting meaning to this, just because you don't use all the exploits doesn't mean you're bad. Also, if you like using exploits, that doesn't make you cheap or a cheater. It's just how you play. And if your sanity's intact, then you're doing good.

 

[OrlanduEX]

If I'm not "playing to win" then am I playing to lose?

This guy makes about as much sense as a submarine screen door.

Playing to win is an expression. By playing to win he means doing everything in your power to win and not restricting yourself with some meaningless honor code.

If you don't do everything in your power to win, you aren't really playing to win. You're just playing for the sake of it. If you lose in this case, you shouldn't care since you weren't trying your best anyway.

 

[Losnar]

and not restricting yourself with some meaningless honor code.

I don't call things you respect "meaningless."

If you don't agree with my code of honor that's fine, but you don't have to insult it.

 

[Sir Bedevere]

I'll admit the honor argument is a very bad one since it's quite easy to refute. The irony of this thread is that its intent was to end debates like these even though it's starting such debates right now!

That's because the OP wasn't playing to win.

 

[Your Hero]

casuals -> angry at the competitve for not playing the game for fun
competitive -> annoyed and tired of casuals trashing what they do and calling them glitches
in between -> me laughing at all of you.

 

[OrlanduEX]

I don't call things you respect "meaningless."

If you don't agree with my code of honor that's fine, but you don't have to insult it.

When it comes to winning and losing in fighting games, there is no need for chivalry. I feel that it is naive and close minded to even play by a restrictive honor code.
Why reduce the options that are available to you? Why impair your own capacity to improve?

Besides there is nothing dishonorable about using Advance techs to win. Other players will actually respect and admire you for your capacity to use them effectively.

 

[Losnar]

When it comes to winning and losing in fighting games, there is no need for chivalry.

Not everyone plays to win. I have no problem with you playing the game the way you want, and you shouldn't have a problem with the way others play. And as far as limiting the game, well that's all opinion. I could say the elites limit the game by banning stages and tactics, but I don't think that's the case necessarily. Who knows, maybe banning edgehogging would greatly improve the game. It's all a matter of opinion, and it's sad that opinions aren't respected on these forums as much as they should be.

I like to win battles, but I won't compromise my code of honor to do so, unless I'm in a tourney.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Restricting something you can do ingame that's not a glitch is completely different from restricting a stage.

 

[Spellman]

Not everyone plays to win. I have no problem with you playing the game the way you want, and you shouldn't have a problem with the way others play. And as far as limiting the game, well that's all opinion. I could say the elites limit the game by banning stages and tactics, but I don't think that's the case necessarily. Who knows, maybe banning edgehogging would greatly improve the game. It's all a matter of opinion, and it's sad that opinions aren't respected on these forums as much as they should be.

I like to win battles, but I won't compromise my code of honor to do so, unless I'm in a tourney.

That's fine, that's all that really counts anyways. Your honor code isn't meaningless, but it is when it's in the tournament scene because if it's allowed, there isn't any reason not to do all in your power to win, especially since everybody around you will be doing it.

If my opponent suicides at a tournament, I'm not going to suicide to make up for it, though, I might do that at home if I'm just goofing off with my friends.

 

[DraginHikari]

These topics are getting out of hand. As a competitive smasher who plays casually just as much, I feel as though I'm constantly under fire from both sides.

In one of the many debate threads, Lauf linked this article: http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/

Some summaries:

"Playing to win is the most important and most widely misunderstood concept in all of competitive games...those who do not already understand the implications I'm about to spell out will probably not believe them to be true at all. In fact, if I were to send this article back in time to my earlier self, even I would not believe it."

"The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He's lost the game before he's chosen his character. He's lost the game even before the decision of which game is to be played has been made. His problem? He does not play to win...The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing."

"The scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations "cheap." So-called "cheapness" is truly the mantra of the scrub...the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary."

"A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun"...the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it."

"If an expert does anything he can to win, then does he exploit bugs in the game? The answer is a resounding yes...but not all bugs. There is a large class of bugs in video games that players don't even view as bugs... Bugs so extreme that they stop gameplay are considered unfair even by non-scrubs. As are techniques that can only be performed on, say, the one player side of the game."

"I've been talking down to the scrub a lot in this article. I'd like to say for the record that I'm not calling the scrub stupid. I'm not saying he can never improve. I am saying that he's naive and that he'll be trapped in scrubdom, whether he realizes it or not, as long as he chooses to live in the mental construct of rules he himself constructed. Is it harsh to call scrubs naive?...I really have no trouble saying that since we're talking about esoteric, experience-driven knowledge here. I also know that 99.9% of the world (including me) doesn't know how the citric acid cycle and cellular respiration create 38 ATP molecules per cycle. It's an esoteric thing of which I am unaware, just as many are unaware of competitive games."

The problem I have with this is that it's too depended on as much insults depending on the constant scrub stereotype as the main focus of this issue. To me the reasoning is good however the empthesis is based too strongly on the stereotypical manner. It quickly ruins the entire point.

I don't need to go into paragraphs long for this one, it's just more opinions and perspectives, however I just don't think this one is one of the better explanations of the issue.

 

[SynikaL]

The problem I have with this is that it's too depended on as much insults depending on the constant scrub stereotype as the main focus of this issue. To me the reasoning is good however the empthesis is based too strongly on the stereotypical manner. It quickly ruins the entire point.

That's because you're not making the very necessary distinction between the average casual player and a "scrub". That is the source of your unease. When you come to realize that the two are anything but synonymous, you're left with only a clear and intuitive vision of Sirlin's logic. "Scrub", while definitely a pejorative term in competitive circles (NOT just video games), is merely the term used to identify this base mentality present in many video game enthusiasts for the purposes of Sirlin's philosophies.


A "scrub" can be just as competitive as he can be casual. In fact, I'd say most scrubs are more competitive than you'd think.


-Kye.

 

[DraginHikari]

That's because you're not making the very necessary distinction between the average casual player and a "scrub". That is the source of your unease. When you come to realize that the two are anything but synonymous, you're left with only a clear and intuitive vision of Sirlin's logic. "Scrub", while definitely a pejorative term in competitive circles (NOT just video games), is merely the term used to identify this base mentality present in many video game enthusiasts for the purposes of Sirlin's philosophies.


A "scrub" can be just as competitive as he can be casual. In fact, I'd say most scrubs are more competitive than you'd think.


-Kye.

It's more my perspective that you don't resort to terms of that manner if your truely trying to make a solid point.

I'm well aware what a scrub is in the sense you are referring to however I don't feel it's a valid word when your trying to make a point, it just sounds like a filler to not think of something better off.

 

[SynikaL]

It's more my perspective that you don't resort to terms of that manner if your truely trying to make a solid point.

I'm well aware what a scrub is in the sense you are referring to however I don't feel it's a valid word when your trying to make a point, it just sounds like a filler to not think of something better off.

Well, I see where you're coming from, as long as you understand that this was written for a certain audience and the phraseology simply reflects that.


-Syn

 

[Spellman]

Well, I see where you're coming from, as long as you understand that this was written for a certain audience and the phraseology simply reflects that.


-Syn

I figured that's what you meant by the quotation marks around scrub. I often put words in quotation marks when I don't really want to use the word... but feel I kinda have to for anyone to understand me? It's weird, I know.

 

[DraginHikari]

Well, I see where you're coming from, as long as you understand that this was written for a certain audience and the phraseology simply reflects that.


-Syn

I understand that which is why I felt it really wasn't going to help this situation or at least not be the best example for the Casual Vs. Competitive issue here.

I suppose that was my general point

 

[Nafix]

I don't know who posted this stupid god**** thread but this article has been referenced so many times its stupid. I've been on these forums for a couple of years, poking around general discussions occasionally. I don't know why you think you are some kind of savior who deserves to have their thread stickied, but your just another scrub to the veterans around here. You're just as bad as all the other losers who post their stupid opinion about the game.

Alls I'm tryin to do on these general brawl forums is check out new and interesting stuff about brawl. And I do find good threads but not without having to sift through useless threads like this. In a perfect world, with perfect forums, I would be able to see all of the important threads in a list one after the other. But I really can't complain about having to take a couple extra seconds to search out the meat and bones of the threads.

The real problem is the massive influx of noobs on these boards. Now why do you think so little of the pros post casually on these forums or respond to threads like yours? And maybe you could care less, and hey, that's fine. Everything that is on these forums regarding opinion has already been stated multiple times before. Why do you people feel that expressing your opinion on something you have no concept of in the first place would be productive in any way. I have my opinions of things, and I don't feel compelled to share and argue them with people on these forums. Instead of posting ridiculous topics, such as "I'm going to main random", why don't you contribute knowledge that hasn't been previously discussed or has some substance to it. We can all bond together like fellow smashers and respect and acknowledge that people have opinions. Let's turn smashboards into an efficient tool to learn new information and discuss intelligent topics. I know that deep down, all of you have the ability be mature and effective communicators. Now stop being blowhards and cramping up these god**** forums.