The Lucario Video and Critique Thread

[R3dman]

Alrighty, here's a video of me getting manhandled. Critique me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Egp89NWBCw

And please, be gentle lol. I've only been playing this game competitively for about 2 months now. Help me learn so I don't get destroyed next time.

 

[Karnu]

I'm not pro my self (atm)

But I can say maybe use Utilt when MK is near you (correct me if I'm wrong)

Also I NEVER try to chain grab MK in case he tries to shuttle loop.

That's what I have to say.

but GJ ^_^

 

[DrSoussou]

Alrighty, here's a video of me getting manhandled. Critique me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Egp89NWBCw

And please, be gentle lol. I've only been playing this game competitively for about 2 months now. Help me learn so I don't get destroyed next time.

playing against broken characters is always tough, and I'm honestly not very familiar with the MK matchup, but I did notice a few things you could improve on.

You need better DI and familiarity with your different options. Airdodge is rarely a good thing to use and does not help you stop reeling from an attack. Some of these might help: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=291311, but definitely read this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221969.

As far as using Extremespeed, you have to read your opponent's edge-guard to some degree if you want to be able to use it safely. try not to rely on mindgames, and realize that erring on the side of recovery over the stage and taking a hit is sometimes preferable to aiming into a ledge that's already being grabbed in hopes that he'll let go.

In terms of this MU's specifics, I would say that it would not be a bad idea to use several Double-Team counters against such an aggressive opponent. He has no projectile, therefore can only attack when near you, and most of his moves are multiple hit so you're bound to connect with your counter a lot of the time. His glide attack is also highly predictable and can be punished with an aura sphere to be safe. At the least, it will cause him to cancel it so as not to get hit, which should leave him open.

^Utilt is definitely very useful in this MU and I do not remember seeing you use it at all. Many times against MK, you'll feel grounded while taking fire from above. Utilt is one of our faster moves and covers most of the area immediately surrounding Lucario. Implement "spot-dodge -> Utilt" into your combat.

Lastly, you can't be so afraid to take on MK in the air. It is definitely more dangerous and he will still have an advantage, but not using your aerial frame-trap combos at all is allowing him to dominate the air completely and never question whether or not he can approach you from above.

 

[D. Disciple]

Work on your DI big time.

 

[Pivot]

http://www.smashboards.co/showthread.php?t=238767

Should be...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238767

 

[Nau]

Hey guys
Long time I don't post here!
I would like some of my videos to be criticized
Grand Finals of a tournament I attended last week:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of8fHbZs8k4&feature=g-all-u
I'd post the winner semifinals, which are me against the same person, but it seemed I played a little better on grand finals so I'd like you to give me some advice basing in those matches! I had serious problems vs peach, I think I could have easily lost if I had had some more minor flaws.
Tomorrow I'll edit and post winners finals (vs snake)
thank you for reading the post and helping me a bit.
btw don't feel forced to watch the whole set, it's 30 minutes long and the music sucks so hard.

 

[hichez50]

Vs. Peach you have to remember that lucario isn't that fast on the ground. A lot of the damage you took was because you were on the ground while peach was floating. When you are really close that like that anything peach does is going to be faster that what you can do. And if she has a turnip in her hand you have to be careful when rolling in the same direction she is facing. Great lucario though. The only thing I saw was a little too much predictable air doging and zoning issues. Peach is different to zone against. We beat her in the air most of the time, but only in certain spacing limitations. You usually got put into a disadvantageous position when you mispaced a laggy move(i.e Fsmash or ftilt).

While watching your videos and from my own experience I think I am going to reevaluate my use of uptilt in this match up. It seems that it puts peach exactly where she needs to be. What region you from?

 

[hichez50]

@ r3dman

In terms of this MU's specifics, I would say that it would not be a bad idea to use several Double-Team counters against such an aggressive opponent. He has no projectile, therefore can only attack when near you, and most of his moves are multiple hit so you're bound to connect with your counter a lot of the time. His glide attack is also highly predictable and can be punished with an aura sphere to be safe. At the least, it will cause him to cancel it so as not to get hit, which should leave him open.

First off let me address the isolated quote DrSoussou said. Are you crazy? Double-team is rarely a good idea. It should only be used for the extreme mix-up. You other advice is solid, but what were you thinking in telling this guy to use more doube team? Also glide attack isn't that predictable. MK can jump and do any areal out of glide. This paragraph should just be ignored. One bit of match-up specific advice I can offer you without making this post too long is make sure you stay above/on the stage at all times. MK will beat you when you are not on the stage. No questions asked.

R3dman you are what we like to call a rollccario. Your perception of dodging maneuvers has been augmented to a point that you are not using them for what they are intended for. Many young lucario players have this problem and actively thinking about what you are doing is the key to success. For instance there were moments in the video where you spot dodged a tornado. In retrospect does it really seem smart to spot dodge a move that last so long. If you can't avoid getting hit by a tornado you should almost always just shield in the upward direction. Then I also noticed that you roll everywhere. Rolling is just an option. You can walk, jump, heck even extreme speed(i don't recommend it). Some players will punish you hard when they see you roll. Toronto Joe was finally got the hang of your habit in the 2nd game, but other players will realize it midway through the first stock and punish you hard though out the game.

 

[Nau]

Vs. Peach you have to remember that lucario isn't that fast on the ground. A lot of the damage you took was because you were on the ground while peach was floating. When you are really close that like that anything peach does is going to be faster that what you can do. And if she has a turnip in her hand you have to be careful when rolling in the same direction she is facing. Great lucario though. The only thing I saw was a little too much predictable air doging and zoning issues. Peach is different to zone against. We beat her in the air most of the time, but only in certain spacing limitations. You usually got put into a disadvantageous position when you mispaced a laggy move(i.e Fsmash or ftilt).

While watching your videos and from my own experience I think I am going to reevaluate my use of uptilt in this match up. It seems that it puts peach exactly where she needs to be. What region you from?

I'll have to be more careful when using ground attacks with lucario I suppose. Anyway, some fsmashes or ftilts were correctly spaced i think xD and i will try to learn when to use them.
And yeah I might get too predictable with air dodging but sometimes my only options are air dodge, dair or reverse B and I usually choose to reverse B airdodge xD it seems like I'll have to change that a little
uptilt is not bad in the MU I suppose but only for punishing some floats or mispaced aerials (it's ****ing fast, frame 5 xD)
and btw I am spanish and thank you for giving me some advices about the matches. They are from a regional tourney held in Canary Islands (a region from Spain) last week.
I'm still waiting for other sets to be uploaded, so I'll edit later.
EDIT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws19U6bUr1M&feature=g-all-u
Winners Finals set

 

[DrSoussou]

hichez is right, double team is rarely a good idea and like i said, i have little MK experience. I just figured that since that particular MK was hyper aggro throughout the entire match, it would have been safer than usual. definitely dont make a habit out of it.

 

[hichez50]

So last saturday I attended a Alabama tournament here are two sets I would like to have analyzed. Feel free to to only one. The second set I actually win, but I have no clue what to do vs. Ness.

Hichez vs. Spade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL8C3BE4EB627AE89A&v=4XLeVawTcT0&feature=player_detailpage

Hichez vs. JTMerrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh_J4bB8Z1M&list=PL8C3BE4EB627AE89A&index=19&feature=plpp_video

 

[Sunnysunny]

[collapse=Class is in session~!]

[/collapse]

I have reviewed the first in full and a bit of the second~! A few things stand out to me~

[collapse=Recovery~!]
First thing I notice is your recovery. It looks like you avoid the ledge at all cost, and when you do grab the ledge you don't know what to do on it. I know its scary for a character like Lucario to have to go for the ledge, but you have to take that option sometimes even if you can make it back onto stage without it. By taking out that option, your forcing yourself to float back to stage the same way nearly each time. And against marth, who thrives off of reads and wrecking those above him thats terrible.

Aim for the ledge sometimes even if you can land on land sometimes. It keeps the opponent guessing. A nice fakeout is to fall towards them, then Bouncing a aura sphere charge away. Its really good if your recovering up from high as well. Vary it with your d-airs to mix up the timing. I'd recommend learning a few ledge techs too. Up-b stalling like you were doing is extremely dangerous against alot of characters. It only takes one jump off b-air from most characters to take a stock that way. Luckily the marth was a little timid.

I can expand on that, and give you a few ledge options if you wish~!
[/collapse]

[collapse=Close quarter combat~!]
Lets see...
You panic when your opponents up close. You spot dodge to u-tilt an awful lot, and retreat with a roll backwards if they shield whatever you throw out. U-tilt is great if they do touch a button, but you need more options. Its pretty unsafe on block. You gotta mix it up~ Jab cancels, jump up d-air, all that good stuff. If you REALLY want to escape, theres other ways then roll. Don't fall into the habit of rolling so frequently in the same situations. Try f-airing way from your opponent at point blank range, or just run away pivot grabbing.
[/collapse]

[collapse=Approaching~!]

Your approaches are a lil on the predictable side, mate. You try and go in with f-air strings an awful lot, toss out random f-smashes or just flat out roll behind your opponent. In order to get that roll behind thing to work in your favor you gotta make your opponent afraid about whats in front of em. Now, going in with f-air is ok, but you go in DEEEEEP. You don't have to over commit them so much. Try f-airing, then fall back and AS, or fast fall n-air away from the foe. It gets them giddy to move in on you, and they usually just don't have the time to. Throw a jab or tilt afterwards. Or better, roll behind em at that point. Its a great bait.

Other then f-airs, just be brave and walk up f-tilt em if they're just outta range. Or toss a well spaced b-air in there face~
[/collapse]

~Summary~

In short, your main problem right now is variation. Come up with a few more options and use em and I think you'll see alot more results with your lucario~ Your on the way there, ya just gotta be brave and try new things~ You have on point DI and your lucario was moving exceptionally fast in the ness match. If you could use that kinda speed while varying up your attacks you'd be stellar. The best way to bait an opponent into something is by quickening the pace of the match so they have less time to think and make rasher options. A good way to tell if your varying it up enough, is look back on your replays and count how many times a move was used in certain situation. Count what options you did up close, options you did to approach, and how you recovered when off the edge.

Whoo. Sorry, if that was a bit wordy. If you have any further questions feel free to ask me~

 

[DrSoussou]

One thing that Sunny didn't address was your habit of releasing aura sphere. You tend to only fire it when you can dash back, short-hop, and then b-reverse. I have to admit, I like it a lot and may use it a bit myself, but it became very obvious to both of your opponents. Like Sunny said, you need variation.

Try a stationary short-hop or full-hop and then release it at some point during your fall. This allows you to turnaround-B if you need to or carefully aim the AS to control the space that it takes up in the air (force your opponent high or low depending on where they are).

Alternatively, knock them offstage and then fire it at stage level to force them to recover high. This sets them up to be juggled, or if they fastfall-airdodge to avoid it, you can try to gimp them as they recover low. Maybe they can't decide and they'll get hit.

Always go for a chance to fire FCAS at an opponent when landing onstage. If you jump at them before they land, they'll probably airdodge out of fear, then get hit as they come out of it.

Hell, even try the approaching fair -> wavebounce retreating FCAS that I was talking about before. My suggestion, though...? use all of them. Make it so that your opponent never knows what you're going to do with that sphere. The more scared they are, the more defensive commitments they will make. Teach them that a flashing Lucario is a deadly Lucario.

 

[hichez50]

Thanks to both of you. I completely agree with everything you to have said. I have a couple of questions, but I'm on a mobile device right now so I will post back later.

Close combat game play is a questionable area for me. I feel that lucario suck in close range if you aren't reading anything. His fastest move is frame 5 and vs marth jab sucks. If you do anything that isn't gaurnteed it should equal a free punish

 

[DrSoussou]

You're right. Unfortunately, move speed in general as this character is something you trade away for his power. Imo, the best cqc option is usually to land a grab. You can jab into it or spot-dodge -> turnaround grab, whichever works depending on whether your opponent is in front of/behind you and within point-blank or ftilt range. Work on dash-grabs, turnarounds and pivot grabs, because they answer shields, rolls and spot-dodges (respectively). Grabs in close range also allow for a follow-up fair combo (except Fthrow, usually), so you're dealing % when close and setting up for them to have to approach again.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Thanks to both of you. I completely agree with everything you to have said. I have a couple of questions, but I'm on a mobile device right now so I will post back later.

Close combat game play is a questionable area for me. I feel that lucario suck in close range if you aren't reading anything. His fastest move is frame 5 and vs marth jab sucks. If you do anything that isn't gaurnteed it should equal a free punish

Just because your close to an opponent doesn't mean you should freeze up and do nothing though mate. If your next to marth, he's probably gonna try and grab you. His long normals compliment his grab game very well by scaring you into a fetal position. Its more harmful to try and roll away or sit and shield everytime. Jabs pretty reliable if you want to tell someone to back off. I'm not talking about just marth either. I hardly see many jabs in all your matches.

Your right that lucario's up close game is slow, but that doesn't mean its bad. Lucario has so many options out of jab its not even funny, and its incredibly easy to cancel into other things. Hell, if your spaced right on shield you can jab cancel into more jab. Despite being slow, it has very little frame disadvantage compared to most jabs, and at the right range theres not much opponents can do about it unless they're squirtle or something. But yea, don't do jab cancel against marth. Haha. He'll just up-b you. Going threw with the full jab gets him away though, and its often preferred by some players to just do a basic 1 2 3 jab at high percents because of the damage and space it gives you.

As Mr.Sou said grabs are important to, but I honestly think you rely on grabs a little too much. Don't always go for em. Its kinda like a rock paper scizzors thing. Grab beats super up close pressure and chicken blockers and jab beats spot dodgers and is safe against shields at a right range. They work hand n hand. If you make them aware of jab, they'll block more up close. If they block more up close you get more grab opportunities. Depends on what you prefer. They both have pretty high pay off from all the stuff you can get offa em.

 

[hichez50]

Yeah I agree with most characters yeah I would use a lot more jab mix-up but vs. marth they should be trained that whenever they see jab 2 they should use up-B. Before I went to college one of my main training partners use to be a marth player(player-3) I still play him on occasion when I'm back home. I did notice my ftilt was weak in the match-up up.

In your approach section are you saying to get chip damage rather than actually trying to approach(if that makes sense). Sure I have used fair to AS in the past, but it doesn't it just allows for me to get damage and nothing else really.

And I would have to admit recovery is the weakest part of my game. I have always had trouble with this. It seems that I can't find the right balance between edge and stage. My ledge game right now is a result of me being predictable when I got to the edge. I will go for it, but I find that lucario doesn't like it there and characters with great ledge control it is like receiving ~30% for no real reason other than me going toward the ledge. Maybe you could tell me some of the ledge trick and maybe i could get this recovery thing under wraps. You have to admit that lucario really should just avoid that situation all together his options become so limited.

Do you have any ness specific match-up advice? I really don't know what I should do if I came up against a top level ness. I was just trying play my best and kept doing what worked.

 

[DrSoussou]

As Mr.Sou said grabs are important too...

I didn't go to smash school for eight years and intern for three to be called Mr.

Hichez, you need to learn that the ledge is your friend. Lucario's options from the ledge are anything but limited. Its important to mix them up and know when certain options are safe, but there are multiple options for every edgeguarding location that your enemy takes.

Every character's basic ledge options are: roll, stand, get-up attack, jump, or drop. Lucario has these and more, if you consider how many possibilities there are from a ledge-hop or a jump.

Jump->airdodge (usually fastfall): good for baiting your opponent into the air and then safely re-taking the stage
Jump->Dair: for a dumb opponent who stands at the end of the stage
Jump->DJ: good for staying high above the opponent if they dont chase you into the air (follow this with anything)
Drop->ES: your favorite, lol. good for resetting your invincibility frames, properly timing an edge-hog kill, or dodging an attack aimed at the ledge.
Drop->aerial: for harassing an opponent attacking you offstage or trying to recover.
Drop->shark: an attack from the ledge done without Lucario returning above the stage. best option is Up-air, which can go through the ledge on maps like FD and SV.
Drop->cling: on FD and a few other maps. you can fall into a wall-cling and then wall-jump over the edge onto the map, often with a back-air.
Ledge-hop: dropping from ledge and using double jump to recover onto the stage.
Ledge-hop->aerial: great for varying your recovery onto the lip of the stage. You can even land a full Fair->fastfall Nair->FCAS combo if you time your jumping fair correctly.
Ledge-hop->(FC)AS: good for backing up an opponent standing far from the ledge with an attack.
Ledge-hop->Walljump: On FD, BF, Yoshi's, PS, and a few other stages, you can ledge-hop back into the ledge, and if you do it quickly enough you will walljump off the ledge and end up higher out over the map. I like to use this as a mixup and b-reverse an AS charge at the peak of the jump, giving me a charge while moving towards the stage over my opponent and also facing them.
Ledge-hop->wavebounce ASC: if you wavebounce with aura sphere while jumping over the ledge, you will move your charging aura sphere directly into your opponent while facing away from them and the ledge. few people expect this, so it can lead to a nair/dair out of shield to punish. requires balls...and luck.
Ledge-hop->double team: not recommended. Marth's do this with their counter all the time, but we usually end up off the map with our counter-attack when done improperly. can work sometimes, but its dangerous.

I probably even forgot some, but my point is that the ledge is very important and so are the options it provides. Keep all of these at your disposal and vary them as much as you can. Just keep in mind, Lucario is very gimpable and any time you want to spend on the ledge deciding which option to use should be done within your invincibility frames. Don't linger or become predictable on the ledge, or a skilled opponent will always make you pay.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Soussou beat me to the punch! Haha dang man I got nothing to say about the ledge anymore. Only other one I could suggest is get up attack under 100 percent. That things stupid quick and long ranged.

By approaching n stuff, I mean just be a little braver with how you do so and vary it up more. Work on your ground game outside of f-smash, learn a few more baits and you'll be fine.

A personal favorite bait of mine is f-airing just out of range from the opponent, then fastfalling a n-air or air dodge to the ground. Toss out whatever quick move you want afterwards. I swear to god, that thing works like 90 of the time. Its so good man.

I know alot of this stuff sounds pretty unorthodox, but tell ya what~ I'm going to a big tourney soon with all the 4 corner states. I'll get some replays back for you and use whatever I say in em so you can see what I mean~ Much easier to understand when ya see them in action~ =p I promise I wouldn't say anything that wouldn't work in tourney setting.

 

[hichez50]

Dr.Soussou we should make a lucario option thread where we just post options. I would create it myself,but I know when fall hit my head will be mostly in the books.

Btw upair doesn't go through the ledge on FD.

 

[DrSoussou]

I would be in the exact same position, lol. I've got nothing to do this Summer though, could probably get it done but not alone. I also feel like there are those more qualified than myself, just look at my post count

 

[hichez50]

Post count has nothing to do with anything, most of the time. Sure there maybe people more qualified, but in the lucairo boards who would actually do it?

 

[Browny]

POST COUNT IS EVERYTHING

For srs

 

[hichez50]

POST COUNT IS EVERYTHING

For srs

I guess you have never read a overswarm or jebus post.

 

[DrSoussou]

lol, says the "Smash Hater" with 8,856

 

[Karnu]

Ah I'm back for a 2nd critique :3

Hey I would like to know ways I could improve while playing this certin person.
It was a Lucario vs Kirby and this person has a "odd" kirby So I was wondering if I can get the does and don'ts becuase we will most likley have anothey hype match and I wanna come back and win this one


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKMhiYEwHw4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_FAbBvnY5Q&feature=related

Mind you have gotten alot better since them battle but like I said before I will be really greatful if somone can tell me what I did right and wrong.

Thank you

EDIT: Sorry about the sound its bad and plese don't say not to always charge my aura's sphere becuase I always will want it at full power ( I like to play mind games when I can)

Lets hope this fight gets better feed back

In my defense I'm bad at the Yoshi MU and idk why I did the full hope and Bair, I was kinda predicting the Yoshi to make a jump.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_ft9nn-f80&feature=g-all-u

And I need to short hop more x_x

 

[hichez50]

In my journey to watch every video posted here... I got another critique.

Were these friendlies? On your last stock nike seemed to relax a little be to much and he just started trying to be flashy. This isn't to discredit your lucario though. You did the proper thing, and stick to the play style you know and punish him for being silly. I can respect that.

Anyway, full hop and bair isn't your problem at all. Short hop and fast falling are areas where your aerial game could use some work, but I'm not too concerned about that. Your ground game needs the most work. It actually was kind of weird, because your base play style is super similar to mine. It is always easier to hit an idling target. When you are on the ground loosen up a bit and walk, run, and roll around. Lucario has an awesome fox trot, and roll so use that to your advantage. I felt like you didn't abuse your roll enough out of shield. Most of the time you went the offensive route. Just be aware of small patterns like that. The offensive route can be very rewarding vs. Yoshi ~90 when he can't really kill you without a solid read, but will he take the risk when he knows you aura multiplier is getting high. While I'm talking about movement, I would love to see more reverse grabs out of you. They are really effective. I can't say you used your grab options enough, or approaching in general.

One of the main reasons we are good vs. Yoshi is that he has a hard time countering our approaches. When you stand there and wait for Yoshi to approach you just end up taking more damage than you need to. It was appropriate sometimes when you got the read and nailed him with a forward smash or FCAS. I wouldn't depend on that too much though as Yoshi doesn't have the privilege of shield. Just do your thing use:

jab mix up, fair>Fair/FF nair > grab, run > FP, Charge aura shpere to grab, Bair > B reversed AS.

These aren't all your options obviously, but pretty much anything will work while playing yoshi if you use it appropriately. One last thing is use B reverse. It is so good. I am still finding creative ways to use it. It really opens up lucario's palette even more.

TL;DR
This post doesn't contain everything you need to work on/ already good at. Feel free to ask questions as I get better from discussing lucario also.

The good:
- patience
- Well spaced fsmash and aura sphere
- has a good control of the roll habit.
- O.K air game
- nice use of uptilt

The not so good:
- Need more ground movement
- More exploitation of lucario's options in the MU
- more short hopping and fast falling
- B-reverse

 

[Karnu]

Hey, thanks for the feed back, I'll be sure to work on my ground movement, and yes they were friendlies.

btw, what do I do when he spams eggs? Powersheilding never seems to work because there is so many x_x

 

[hichez50]

Eggs are tricky to PS, because there are actually two hit boxes. the egg shell hits you then it explodes. You have to delay your shield a bit. It defiantly takes practice. Even you aren't PS eggs you can usually be all up in yoshi's face at lower percents that it should not be a problem, and when he does hit you the knock back is not going to kill you and if they are camping with eggs then they can't be close enough to make a follow up that will kill you. In the end you just get a bigger multiplier.

Also a thing that I forgot to mention is watch out for grounded DOWN-B. That thing will kill you if you are being oblivious. A Yoshi in main in my state use to get me with that all the time. The second you read and punish it though is the second they stop using it.

I hope that helps.

 

[DrSoussou]

Ah I'm back for a 2nd critique :3


Lets hope this fight gets better feed back

In my defense I'm bad at the Yoshi MU and idk why I did the full hope and Bair, I was kinda predicting the Yoshi to make a jump.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_ft9nn-f80&feature=g-all-u

And I need to short hop more x_x

At 1:47 you Uthrow twice and do nothing with it, you have to follow up. Uthrow and Fthrow are aura-based, whereas Bthrow and Dthrow are not and usually just do a flat 10%. For this reason, Fthrow's knockback depends on Lucario's Aura Bonus. Oddly, Uthrow's does not. It basically leaves the opponent in the same area no matter their damage or Lucario's.

Since that means you know exactly where your opponent will be every time you finish Uthrow, you need to practice combos out of it. You can start a SHFair combo if you're fast enough and your opponent doesn't react quickly, but if you need something more concrete, you can just do a rising Nair. Just make sure you do SOMETHING, or you might as well be using another throw that does more damage.

Just look at the way your opponent knows exactly where you're going to be whenever he turns you into an egg. You can get a free hit out of your Uthrow just like he gets a free Uair while you're trapped in the egg.

As far as general Yoshi stuff goes, idk the MU either. Mostly cuz I've never met someone who really plays Yoshi...I feel like few non-pros have. Anyway, what I DO know is that Yoshi doesn't have a real Up-B (aka recovery move). Soooo, gimp his little low-tier dino ***. Force him to use his double-jump and take advantage of it, or wait for him to use it on his own and hit him with a Fair combo towards the edge. I realize its easier said than done, but exploiting fatal weaknesses like that can lead to easy victories.

Also, LOL at the UpSmash winner.

 

[Karnu]

At 1:47 you Uthrow twice and do nothing with it, you have to follow up. Uthrow and Fthrow are aura-based, whereas Bthrow and Dthrow are not and usually just do a flat 10%. For this reason, Fthrow's knockback depends on Lucario's Aura Bonus. Oddly, Uthrow's does not. It basically leaves the opponent in the same area no matter their damage or Lucario's.

Since that means you know exactly where your opponent will be every time you finish Uthrow, you need to practice combos out of it. You can start a SHFair combo if you're fast enough and your opponent doesn't react quickly, but if you need something more concrete, you can just do a rising Nair. Just make sure you do SOMETHING, or you might as well be using another throw that does more damage.

Just look at the way your opponent knows exactly where you're going to be whenever he turns you into an egg. You can get a free hit out of your Uthrow just like he gets a free Uair while you're trapped in the egg.

As far as general Yoshi stuff goes, idk the MU either. Mostly cuz I've never met someone who really plays Yoshi...I feel like few non-pros have. Anyway, what I DO know is that Yoshi doesn't have a real Up-B (aka recovery move). Soooo, gimp his little low-tier dino ***. Force him to use his double-jump and take advantage of it, or wait for him to use it on his own and hit him with a Fair combo towards the edge. I realize its easier said than done, but exploiting fatal weaknesses like that can lead to easy victories.

Also, LOL at the UpSmash winner.

I predicted he would come to me so I used up smash, that move has some crazy hit box ( think lol)

 

[hichez50]

As far as general Yoshi stuff goes, idk the MU either. Mostly cuz I've never met someone who really plays Yoshi...I feel like few non-pros have. Anyway, what I DO know is that Yoshi doesn't have a real Up-B (aka recovery move). Soooo, gimp his little low-tier dino ***. Force him to use his double-jump and take advantage of it, or wait for him to use it on his own and hit him with a Fair combo towards the edge. I realize its easier said than done, but exploiting fatal weaknesses like that can lead to easy victories.

Yoshi is really not that easy to gimp, since good yoshi player know exactly how to abuse yoshi's 2nd jump super armor frames. So you will probably just end up trading damage.

 

[BlueXenon]

Can i post an online match here? I dont play offline.

 

[Sunnysunny]

As far as general Yoshi stuff goes, idk the MU either. Mostly cuz I've never met someone who really plays Yoshi...I feel like few non-pros have. Anyway, what I DO know is that Yoshi doesn't have a real Up-B (aka recovery move). Soooo, gimp his little low-tier dino ***. Force him to use his double-jump and take advantage of it, or wait for him to use it on his own and hit him with a Fair combo towards the edge. I realize its easier said than done, but exploiting fatal weaknesses like that can lead to easy victories.

Wowowow, what are you talking about?
Why does everyone underestimate yoshi's recovery? This ain't 08 anymore!

Just because a move does not give amazing vertical distance does not mean it cannot function well as a recovery. Yoshi does have an amazing up-b. Your underestimating the ability to stall in the air while throwing projectiles. If marth wasn't able to stall in the air with his side-b his recovery would be significantly worse. With his double jump armor, ability to stall in the air WHILE hurling eggs at the opponent, it becomes a difficult task to edgegaurd the guy from below. And whilst recovering high he can drop down instantly with down b (even snatch the ledge from far away with it) shift momentum in the other direction completely with a wavebounced egglay, or just abuse his superior air mobility to escape his foes. He has all this, ON TOP of his double jump armor which stops f-air strings in there tracks and even trades in his favor if he tosses out a n-air afterwards.

He has a recovery.
A great one.

Versatility is what makes it strong.

It has to be ATLEAST one of the top 10 recoveries in the game. Much better then ours atleast.

On the topic of how to deal with yoshi.

If you really want to know how to fight yoshi, just make contact with him. Rule of thumb is Lucario's everything > Yoshi's everything. He's beaten in the air, on the ground, everywhere. His terrible shield also lets you go completely ape **** on it with up close pressure and all of our moves range and disjoint are superior to whatever he has. The best "defense" option he has upclose is his spotdodge, which is slightly better then other characters. However, because lucario's hitbox's linger for so long, lucario has almost no problem dealing with his spotdodge.

The only proper way for yoshi to approach this match up, is to hover around, JUST out of range of whatever you're doing, and sneaking in once you press a button. You destroy him, but that doesn't mean you should just throw out moves unless you know they'll make contact, because yoshi's godlike at sneaking in with little hits.

As far as lucario's combo's go, they don't really work on yoshi. Yoshi's double jump lets him escape alot of stuff, and often trade if he tosses out a n-air afterwards. Both his n-air and jab are only 3 frames start up, with pretty amazing range, so...just watch out for those. Don't let them steal your momentum away.

The biggest weakness in this MU is yoshi's pathetic kill power. We absolutely wreck most of his kill moves. Yoshi generally prefers to kill off the top with u-air, and u-smash, but our amazing d-air, and strong ground game nueters these kill moves utility greatly. Just make sure you're not placed above yoshi and you should be fine. Really, his only reliable way of killing lucario is n-air which doesn't kill until pretty late. Just lame it out on the ground and you'll be fine. His only other option is f-smash, but its range is pathetic. He'll probably only use it if your trying to land, so don't get read. If you're aware of all his kill moves you will live for eeeever. Seriously. The biggest reason we dominate this match up is thanks to our long-livity.

Btw, don't throw too many aurasphere's unless they're fully charged. If they're baby's, getting hit by an egg will be unfavorable.

Speaking of eggs, if you ever get hit by one of his up-bs, be prepared to jump, because if you decide to do anything else BUT jump, yoshi's dash grab will beat it out clean.

Lets see...what else.
Even though you're d-air is great, its preferable NOT to try and challenge his U-air or u-smash. Its possible for yoshi to Double jump RIGHT threw the first hit of d-air and u-air you with his super armor. And yoshi's head is invincible for his u-smash. Best not to get throw into the air at all.

Oh, and be smart with your rolls of course. Pivot grab too good yo.

Sorry, thats about all I know. I use to main Yoshi before lucario, so I know what makes this MU completely horrible. Actually, it was getting my *** kicked so much by lucario's that made me WANT to pick him up as my main.

So yea, just don't let yoshi WEEEAVE his way inbetween your attacks and you'll be fine. The main moves he'll use for sneaking in attack will be Dash grab, Wavebounced egglays, and b-airs.

Btw, don't get b-air'd at high percent. Fastball b-air, into jab1, into turn around ground pound is a legit combo, and a pretty ****ing good kill set up. That was like....by far my favorite thing to do as yoshi. Super reliable actually.

Can i post an online match here? I dont play offline.

Well, its preferable that we see a match of you offline, so that we know how you play while you're at your strongest, but yea online matches work too. Its also preferable that you submit a video of you fighting someone your equal with. Not one of you curb stomping somoene otherwise, we won't know what you need to work on. =p

 

[DrSoussou]

That was an impressive MU summary, I feel completely enlightened.

I'm not so sure about top 10 recoveries in the game, but I definitely see why its better than I had thought.

Thanks, though. This is great. If I ever lose to an amateur Yoshi now that I've read this I won't forgive myself. Bad maps for Yoshi? Do Aura Spheres generally go through eggs or not really?

Lols at "long-livity" and the idea of Yoshi being god-like. XD

 

[Sunnysunny]

Ha thanks~ Its probably the only one I know that well. =p

Ehhh yoshi's godlike in the sense that he can poke holes in a defense pretty flawlessly. "The poor mans wario" is a good way to describe how he plays. =p

Lets see...
Generally, eggs are not beaten by anything. They explode when they're destroyed and the arch they travel at probably won't have you hitting them with aurasphere anyway. You'd have to fire ABOVE yoshi's head to hit them so, blowing em up isn't a good idea.

However, the cool down on that thing is LOOONG. If you keep a fully charged aurasphere on you at all time's you can definitly trade hits with him on reaction to his egg throw. This could net you a nice kill if the yoshi is being a lil eager.

Hmm bad maps. None really. I probably woudln't take yoshi to Yoshi's island. Yoshi can cancel his ground pound on the top platform when its sloped into other moves, making whatever he does out of ground pound, near unpunishable, and even allows him to set up a few unblockables with his egg lay. Overall, I think you STILL beat him on that stage though. =p I'd take him to battlefield, just because you can really torment him on platforms thanks to his weak shield.

And naaaaah dude. =p
Don't worry about amateurs taking you down. It takes a long time to truly grasp how yoshi's suppose to be played. A good yoshi will have to be REALLY seasoned in order to compete and utilize all his tricks and mobility options..

A normal yoshi? Nah, do whateves mang~

 

[DrSoussou]

poor man's wario XD

unblockables and Spring-HA! cancels (that was my favorite sound he'd make in Yoshi Story lol)?? definitely not fighting him on his home turf.

@BlueZelda: you should definitely play more offline than wifi. personally I can't stand it at all but I see why some people like it. I spent years playing XBOX Live with flawless internet connection, so I vomited the first time I played Brawl wifi. most consider it to be almost a completely different game, anyway. some things that you can do offline would just never work in wifi. we'd be glad to watch your vids though. maybe you can teach me how to upload to youtube cuz I have a hacked wii with infinite replay but i'm a tech noob so idk how to make pretty pictures magic to interwebs.

 

[BlueXenon]

I use a webcame to record my tv. It has terrible quality but its still watchable.
I think your right about wifi. I can do lucarios combo's much better against cpu's than online.

 

[DrSoussou]

ohhhh, i though you knew how to upload replays. i got excited lol.

yeah dude, wifi messes up your muscle-memory based timing really badly. my brain is like "i just entered that combo" and my eyes are like "nothing's happening" and my hands are like "QUICK, SPAM!! MAYBE THAT WILL WORK!"

 

[hichez50]

ohhhh, i though you knew how to upload replays. i got excited lol.

yeah dude, wifi messes up your muscle-memory based timing really badly. my brain is like "i just entered that combo" and my eyes are like "nothing's happening" and my hands are like "QUICK, SPAM!! MAYBE THAT WILL WORK!"

I found just best just to ignore lag.