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It's not 50 : 50 due to how much DK outranges mario, has more ko power, and a lot more survivability.
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Smart quote from a smart player.
I wouldn't approach DK if I didn't have to. I'd let him approach and rack up damage when I get in.
Lol. 6:4 DK. DK can't do chain combos how someone like Mario can. Bair stays out for too long. It's a very good spacing tool and DK outranges us but when we get in we stay in. The Utilt thing is theorycraft. We can fireball making you shield so that we can follow up that fireball up with any fast move. DK's shield is slow so we can pressure it with stuff.
OK. Watch this then. You are ZONING (just because you don't wanna camp) with fireballs and DK is approaching using by powershielding. Then you do something else because he's closing in. You do a crossover dair on his shield and crouch. DK can't do ****. He can't SH bair because that'll miss and you can punish. Whatever he does at this point OOS can be shielded and/or punished on reaction. Hello Mario combos.
Using UpB early is good assuming you are well above the stage. If he recovers high then he'll just take move damage. If he gets hit off with something like Dsmash, it doesn't hit you off high. You can edgeguard and force an UpB. Jumping over someone isn't a good idea. It's not the speed of an instant transmission and attempting to jump over someone will get them clipped. Even if DK successfully jumps, Mario can jump and hit him off and it's the same situation but with no jump. Gimp
No. MK definitely has the advantage, but Mario has all the tools needed to fight back, just that they aren't good enough to match what MK has. If Mario had more range (and a better recovery), the MU would slip to his favor, but due to that, the MU isn't going anywhere near Even.
I think you're giving the Fball a little too much value. DK can do pretty much any attack to cancel it (and the attack if it's weak enough), and then be ready.
A smart player won't try to attack at every single little opening, most would weigh risk and reward. DK could just roll away, or he could retreat a SH bair, and im almost positive that nothing mario has can punish a retreating bair, especially if he's crouching and facing the other way.
Last time Bigfoot tried to prove that, he almost lost to me, and just won because he switched it up after realizing that just relying on B-air isn't all that safe. Of course, I was worse back then, and recently have become a much better player.
Video evidence is not a valid argument for matchup discussion. The average player for Brawl sucks anyway, and even the pros aren't very competent compared to pros for other competitive games. There is a lot that people simply don't do right that they SHOULD be doing better by just knowing options.
Mario's F-smash outranges most of DK's moves and slightly charged can kill as early as 110% up angled. Mario's Sliding Upsmash slides about half of BF and kills heavyweights at like 125%. Mario can be very good at scoring kills, and these strategies are not hard to apply against DK who has very limited options for dealing with pressure.
FD is your best bet. Fireballs are easier to use and if we use up-b early there are no platforms to land on. DK gets nothing really and mario gets something. Rainbow cruise is a terrible idea. DK beats mario in the air and we have a d-tilt lock on the ship that can start from a cargo d-throw. You may think you can cape us alot, but it wont be as easy as it seems. We want you to challenge us in the air.
You always get better with experience... Even in seemingly impossible matchups such as mario v MK. It's just as easy for me to say fighting mario is about watching out for gimmicks and matchup knowledge. If you would have just said "DK has a few relieble moves for covering his options," it would have been better, but even so that argument is kinda vague and makes it seem as though mario has alot more reliable options which I don't really see. (Key words: alot more)
DK can only attack behind him and above him, while Mario has a projectile, the Cape, and decent pseudo forward zoning options in his U-air and N-air. The D-tilt lock can be ignored since it's obvious. Mario also has a Jab lock against walls that he can set up with F-throw although locks in general are just extremely gimmicky. Mario is also pretty good on RC if you ask me if not nearly as ungodly as those guys who can fly at will.
The point is basically that DK has a few bread and butter strategies that actually work consistently, but you're much more likely to lose this matchup for not knowing his non-bread and butter strategies. If you don't know the matchup, stuff like airdodge to U-tilt, random headbutt aerial mixups, charged Smashes, Down-B shield pressure, the <100 ledge attack all seem more difficult to avoid or punish than they actually are. Mario's stuff when it gets started like his Jab game, juggle options, and projectile followups are generally harder to avoid since he keeps his opponent in better positions for followups, and Mario himself has better physics for followups.
I really don't see mario beating DK in the air. b-air alone is gonna beat out most of what mario has due to range and DK probly won't be facing you. Even if mario has more options, it does not mean they are better than DK's.
What Veggi said; alot of things mario has are also avoidable. If you're trying to say its easier for mario to learn the DK matchup than the other way around, then I can imagine why you would think so but thats a little too opinionated
are you serious? how can you even say this?
this is your opinion. you have no evidence to support this.
just because you know an option doesn't always mean you do it. players make mistakes(even at top level) people freeze up, get nervous, or simply slide over the right button or miss it completely (happens to people).
if this kills so early and out ranges the character with the most ground range why do I not see good mario's using this often?
is that the best you have? a f-trow to fireball that can be power shielded? power shielding does not leave DK in a bad position. if DK gets hit by a fireball at close range it leaves him in a bad position. it doesn't if DK has the ability to shield close range
I was just trolling. I wanted to see if I could post a bunch of really vague crap in the same fashion that A2ZOMG and most smashboards debaters do and get away with it. It worked. I really give up on matchup discussions. It's just so...so...****.
Because it moves Mario along with the move so pivot smash is only useful in punishing circumstances.
I don't really like them either, so I hardly ever participate. It's always goes too much into theory and detracts from the main points. Either way, **** happens in brawl so I was just like "hmm... he's probly right IN SOME SITUATIONS"
I think it's even. As I said I'll be facing Cable tomorrow and I'll see how I do and what works in actual play.
If DK has to momentum break with SK against mario, I think it's safe to say he's pretty much dead. Well, if he doesn't DI the hit well at least.
False, it was actually a recent tournament from like two months ago maximum if I recall. Bigfoot's DK is still incredibly good, and he uses DK in teams. I however am improving very rapidly, and my improvement as a player within the last month has been very massive.
You cannot use video evidence or personal experience as an argument in logical debate. Matchup theory does not work this way. You have to back it up with relevant information. Most players do not represent the metagame correctly. MANY players have a bad grasp of vertical spacing, deliberate powershielding, establishing solid traps, safely edgeguarding, recovering correctly, zoning intelligently, not making technical errors, the list goes on. The average player for this game is currently terrible, and the average pro for this game is still infinitely less competent than the average pro for other games. Matchup theory is what we aim to improve towards thus.
As I explained, most players do not do a lot of the above things very effectively.
EVERYONE has room to improve, and when we discuss a matchup, the only mistakes that should occur are due to being on the wrong end of a safe guessing game trap or due to frame sized spacing/timing discrepancies between viable spacing/poking strategies.
Only a few Mario players are actually good with the character, and as I said, video evidence and personal experience are NOT a substitute for logical debate.
While this may be true to some extent, you have to keep in mind that Mario's Sliding Up-smash travels at a speed that cannot be reacted to easily, and that DK has very few options to stop Mario from doing it when he's being juggled. This technique can reach DK from incredibly long distances if DK is trying to DI away from it, and it has the priority to beat basically anything that matters.
The point is YOU CAN'T powershield it because the throw puts you in the air, and if you actually land on the fireball, Mario has a very good chance of getting a regrab that resets the trap. The characters that can avoid this the best have good aerial forward zoning tools such as swords or sometimes projectiles, which DK has neither of.
I could not agree more with this statement here. DK punishes pretty heavily on bad approaches and decisions. If you know his options and where he may be vulnerable at a given moment, it's nowhere near as disheartening as it may seem.
