The MBR average tiers

[Gilgamesh]

Heck, i'm no dictionary bros, but here i go:

Tier

1. One of a series of rows placed one above another: a stadium with four tiers of seats.

2. A rank or class.

tiered, tier·ing, tiers. To arrange (something) into or rise in tiers: tier a wedding cake; balconies that tier upward. [Middle English tire, row, rank, from Old French, from tirer, to draw out. See TIRADE.]

One that ties: a tier of knots.

3. (n.) A continuous succession of persons or things
• row
• column
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, basically the term we use here is a mix between all of them. Thank you thesaurus and AHD.

 

[ssbm_kings]

I was using his warlock punch as an example on how slow he is. Serously, give me one good reason why you think gannondorf is a better character? His attack are slower then falcon, it is just a little bit stronger then falcon. Falcon is strong and his speed just make him a lot better then gannondorf. Anyways, how much tournaments have you won with gannondorf? How much tournaments you know that was actually won with gannondorf? This is like a roy and marth scenerio. Roy lags too much to hit anyone, and marth is a lot faster when he smashes. Gannon smash is just hard to hit people cause it so slow. I have never come across someone who plays gannon and got impress by it. All the things gannon does, falcon does it better because he does it faster with respectable strength. I said it before, even though gannondorf is incredibly strong, his speed makes him not a good character.

Give me some reasons why gannondorf is a good character to be a top tier?

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

heh...Chicago, anyone?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the players that occasionally wins the weekly tournaments in Chicago (which are attended by very good players) uses ganondorf. I've never seen a tournament won by falcon. So if you want to judge by tourney results...ganon has falcon beat.

Ganon vs Falcon is NOT a power vs. speed issue. Falcon is not ganon with faster yet weaker moves. He is a completely different character, with a completely different play style. He is incredibly difficult to control. The essense of a character is not the power/speed of their moves but instead how the character moves and how their moves work together. Falcon moves completely differently than ganon. The characters are very different.

I'm no ganon master, but I believe his strength lies in his crouch-cancelling abilities. Much like the way you play your Samus, thanh. he has fast moves in his sweep and jab, and his tilts are reasonable. In the air he kicks ***. I'll have to try him out against you.

-B

 

[darkblaster]

hm... sheik can't be top tier for obvious reasons, her smashes take lag time, also sheik falls fast, so it would be better to play as Zelda, my brother thinks sheik is so... good, but in my eyes, she sucks and I helped him write his mini guide.

Its sad how Kirby is way down at the bottom, because Kirby is good, think about it, good recovery, 6 or 7 jumps, slow falling, very good, lightweight, yet hard to knock off, and a decent juggler, good aerial guy, so what wrong with jigglypuff?

Roy doesn't suck, just his lag time in his B and Smashes, because he has to be fancy shmancy with all his fire stuff, I hate how he fights, but he deserves better than that, because I can work miracles with Roy, I've beaten my brother with Roy!

Of course, I'm a n00b at Smash World Forums, and melee discussion, but my dream of getting into the Melee Backroom is very large, I've seen some of the content, while watching my brother, so...

my opinion does not matter, but im a good Smash player,

 

[PimpLuigi]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Yeah, unfortunately there's a tendence in the back room to put bowser and G&W above mewt in the tiers, while i disagree with that. It's all pimp's fault, i hate you *runs away crying*

hehe, come now Gilgy Bowser is better than Mewtwo. Besides it's not that mewtwo isn't good, it's just that all the other characters are better.

here is my list to show how mine deviates from the norm (heh, heh, or to show how mine created the norm ) :

toptier:

Sheik, Fox

uppertier:

Falco, Peach, Marth, Samus, Ganon, Falcon, Mario, Doc, Luigi

Middletier:

Pika, Ness, Yoshi, Link, Y.Link, Yoshi, Jiggly, IC's, Roy

Below Average:

Kirby, G&W, DK, Pichu, Bowser

Mew tier:

Mew


Things mbr members may have noticed i've changed:
i took falco out of the toptier as i didn't feel he was as good as Fox or Sheik. I moved Roy and Falcon up, as i felt i was being biased.

Peach, Marth, Samus (and perhaps mario and luigi) i felt could be candidates for top tier, but Marth has holes in sheik and fox, Peach has holes in characters w/ range (marth), and Samus didn't seem to quite cut it, but i may change my mind later. That's all for now.

-Pimp

 

[PorCorpWis]

.

Pimp, if you can overcome your anti Roy bias, why can't you overcome your anti Mewtwo bias? A wild guess tells me that you try to play more agressively than you should with Mewtwo. You once said that in a game of "run-away-fairy" Mewtwo would win every time. You have to use Mewtwo as though he's a running fairy. If you aren't willing to do that, fine, but don't place him in a tier below Bowser because of your inhibitions.

edit: I had to reply to this guy...
<<hm... sheik can't be top tier for obvious reasons, her smashes take lag time, also sheik falls fast, so it would be better to play as Zelda>>
lol, lol, lol... The rest of it's wrong too, but I just had to point and laugh at that part.

<<Of course, I'm a n00b at Smash World Forums>>
That sentence should have ended after the 5th word.

Indeed, it is a very large dream for you to get into the backroom.

It may sound like I'm just picking on people now but I couldn't resist...

 

[PimpLuigi]

Pimp, if you can overcome your anti Roy bias, why can't you overcome your anti Mewtwo bias? A wild guess tells me that you try to play more agressively than you should with Mewtwo. You once said that in a game of "run-away-fairy" Mewtwo would win every time. You have to use Mewtwo as though he's a running fairy. If you aren't willing to do that, fine, but don't place him in a tier below Bowser because of your inhibitions.

hehe, "run-away-fairy" i love that quote. Anyhoo, here's the thing- i don't believe i'm being bias against Mew. I simply don't think he has enough useful moves to seriously compete. It's not just a matter that his game is running away, but he's doesn't have any strong openers. His game is severely handicap. You act like placing him below Bowser is a crime, when in fact Bowser is pretty good, he may be lacking alittle something that would make him average, but still i whole heatedly believe Bowser alot better than people give him credit for. I'm all for defending characters who i think aren't getting a fair shake, unfortunately i don't think this is the case w/ Mew2.

It's not even a matter of my patience, i play alot of different styles to be the best i can with some of my favorite characters. True i do like to pitbull w/ sheik, but i'm even patient w/ her when the situation requires it. Let's be honest here, i wouldn't be a very good smasher if i was impatient as i let on. Every Mew i've seen hasn't been that great, the ppl on the boards that started off hardcore Mew have dropped him. I've played Mew myself, and yes been patient w/ him. V's is the best Mew i've seen, V makes even the crappiest characters seem good. V took advantage of all Mew's good points the grabs, even spiked, and consistently hit w/ the cat claw, through all this Mew just wasn't as good. It's like he's got some sort of hole in his game. Sure you can compete w/ any character, but Mew you have to try alittle bit harder to cover his weakness'. To be honest i wouldn't say i'm a bad Mew player myself, it just so happens i think every other character in the game has a better move set than he does. Or rather as i like to say- it's not that Mew's bad, it's just that i think every other character is better.

-Pimp

 

[SilencedViolence]

*scratches head*... ok... so maybe my requests for an mbr official tier list have been fulfilled.... ok... that's good. Anyway.... um to all of you that are being flamed... don't worry.... everyone is just tired of explaining the same thing about tiers over and over... but trust me... most flames by pimp, gilga, and the rest of the vets have excellent reasoning behind them... its just that you guys have missed out on the tier debates that have shut out the "there are no tiers and shiek sucks" concepts. Hmmmm... and yes... I do support dogy do an extent... although he doesn't seem to realise that the equal skill argument is based on use of a characters potential through ones skill, as in, which is different then your case of shiek.

You have equal skill to yourself dogy, but if there were to of you and it was peach vs shiek, the you controling the peach would win because you can use more of peach's potentil because she fits your style... but anyway... I understand what you mean that its opinnion to an extent... it is... but look at it this way:

The tier systems decided by averaging the opinions is obviously what works for most of the experienced players around here... adn that's what really matters. Who cares if it would work differently for aliens in the andromeda galaxy, if any exist, its what matters to us. You are just awakening to the fact that everything is relative... morals are relative to society... and tiers are relative to the players who are tiering the game. Of course, we only use experienced players tiers because all the noobs would produce completely different tiers to to their greater bias for or against certain cahracters.

Anyway, as for the tier system... yeah... I agree with it on the most part... except for the (dr.) mario discrepancy... although I'm not sure about luigi... since I've played more luigi then mario... but I can see from my experience why they would be considered equal... also... I see why people think yoshi and dk are equal... I mean... I can imagine that if you use DK and Yoshi to the same of their potential that they would show similar win/lose results against the ssbm cahracters.

And yeah... I believe that most of the tiers are somewhat based on final destination, but thats one of the stages people play the most... I think (lol I'm a tard and you know it... ) and that goes back to my statement of the tiers being relative to how most people play now.

Not much else to say... thanks... but hopefully this won't turn into a spam fest or a flame war... maybe we should make a sticky topic of the currently accepted character tier ratings... probably with explanations why they are so... but it probably won't happen... none of the noobs would look anyway... and flaming's more fun in any case.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Hey silenced, that's a nice idea, i think i've seen it proposed before.... *thinks about an "official tier sticky topic* um.... *drools*... yeah.... um.

Well what i was going to say is.. i agree with PCW, i don't think Pimp realizes the runaway fairy power that lurks in mewtwo, so for the time being i'll stick to the idea that the lowest tier is... maybe G&W or bowser, i never make up my mind about who's the worst of these two. And Roy is good you lap-dancing DRUNK!!!!

Now all you runaway fairies raise your hands in glee

*raises hand*

 

[PimpLuigi]

i think the real issue is you guys underestimating the power of Bowser, not me underestimating the power of Mew. Like it's such a crime that Mew is under Bower, when Bower is good yo. I've tried to be as unbiased as possible in regards to Mew, can you guys say the same about Bowser?

-Pimp

 

[ECVlion]

VERY FLAWED...

OK, what's M2 doing at THE BOTTOM? Look, he might not have lots of great attacks, but the good attacks he has will be mixed in with rolls, avoiding other attacks. So in the long run, M2 has an advantage over characters like Mario, IMHO. Ice Climbers should be almost top tier too.

Whoops, I didn't see your post Pimp.

Well, Bowser has a few good moves, to say the least, his Up B. It has a lot of priority. His up smash is good for COMBOing, maybe with an up aerial.

 

[ssbm_kings]

Hey Brian. I don't think the usual winner of the chicago tournaments uses Gannondorf. I think he uses Marth. I'm actually pretty sure he uses Marth. The only time i remember that gannondorf won the tournament was once. The rest of the tournament was taken by a Marth player. I still don't think how you guys rate gannon above falcon. I don't see why gannon crouch cancel is any different from falcon. It is basically the same thing. Brian, maybe you should try to knock some sense into my head why gannon is better then falcon. Try him out at the next tournament.

On a different story, i'm starting to get good with bowswer. I just don't think mewtwo belong below G&W. I think that is just wrong. Pimp, you have to admit that mewtwo get in move just owns. Probably the best in the game. Personally, i think G&W is just useless.

 

[spaz519]

This is actually almost right on what my views of teh tiers are...

4.9 Sheik
4.8 Falco, Fox

---^--- Top tier, no surprises here. Marth is borderline, tho his lag is the end of him...

4.4 Marth
4.1 Mario
4.0 Zelda, Samus, Luigi
3.9 Peach
3.8 Dr. Mario
3.5 Ice Climbers, Ganondorf

---^--- Upper Mid, fairly true. Right on mine, except for Yoshi.

3.4 Pikachu, Link
3.2 Captain Falcon, Young Link
3.1 Jigglypuff, Ness
2.9 Yoshi, Donkey Kong
2.8 Roy
2.1 Kirby

---^--- Lower Mid, still echos mine. Yoshi should be higher, IMO: powerful, heavy, not terribly slow...

1.8 Mr. Game and Watch
1.6 Pichu, Bowser
1.3 Mewtwo

---^--- Yep.

 

[InfiniDragon615]

My tier listing does include Marth on it, because I've never had any major problems with the lag, and sice I've heard of actual tournament comp (in Japan, anyway) using him well. So, here's my list:

Top Tier:

-Fox
-Falco
-Sheik (not Zelda)
-Marth

Mid Tier:

Those I did not mention above or below

Low Tier:

-Mewtwo
-Pichu

I would also place Roy as top tier personally, but not on this list, so that don't have to face the flames.

 

[Wuhubettur]

Hmmm...

I'm surprised by the number of people who are questioning what is essentially an average of opinions. The way I see it, this is not an absolute ranking of character strength, but an assemblage of the opinions of many.
At least, I hope that's the case. I somehow feel I have somewhere seen the tier system boasted as an absolute ranking of characters.

Naturally, I have my disagreements as well. For instance, Bowser is one of my best characters. I would argue that his forward smash delivers god-like power, and for the most part, his ground attacks are unmatched (air is a different story). But I don't believe that certain characters are significantly better than others - all characters have strengths and weaknesses, and in the end, tiers are a matter of player preference.
Essentially, it's interesting to see which characters are most preferred, but there's no use in arguing too much about it.

~FIN~

 

[Cyphus]

i think sometimes people try to rank characters by overanalizing their "stats" and such...sometimes its easier just to look and say..."DUH!"
dividing pichu from falco...is an obvious, tiers i speak, of course

but i simply see the good,hte bad, and the...normal(sorry ripping off phrase)
its not really a matter if Roy is good or not..its a matter if "why have him if u have marth?"...then i WOULD put roy at the bottom just becuase of his superior counterpart

top(IMO)-falco,sheik,fox,marth,mario,Dr.Mario(most of these guys are very balanced..see a trend here?)
good-C.falcon,Gannondwarf
average-sure...everyone in between i guess
bottom-roy(most people acknowledge marth being better, so u don't REALLY need him at a high rank,peach(she's a slow character w/out power...sure she can recover,but not from a meteor or any other out of screen kO)mewtwo,pichu,bowser(yeah...u heard me...who cares if u think bowser is better than mewtwo(i actually do,but...)they kinna all fall a little below so why make a big deal of it?)

 

[Freak'N Yosh]

yoshi n dk paired?

well... i understand theyre "averages"... even still, considerin yoshi's average placed him with DK is beyond me... but its kool, i like it since itll give me the element of surprise

but im glad PIMPLUIGI at least placed the yosh a lil higher, peace.

 

[MarthofNaggaroth]

To me what is stupid is having tiers at all. There are no best characters to use. The skill is within each player, not within the character. Certain characters differ because of different styles. There is no BEST character to use. I've seen people school with Yoshi or Kirby. And I've also seen people who suck with Falco or Mario(Jimmy). Stop complaining or bragging about how good you are with a "sucky" character. Lose the line and get some skills.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Argh, this last post is yet more proof that we should have an "official" tier explanation post sticked o the first page, just to avoid excessive explaining to guys like this ^ ... Either that or direct him to Dogy's threads (sorry to use you as an example dogy but your name came to my mind)

At this point i don't think non-tier believers know much about the game. The more you get better at it, the more obvious tiers become.

 

[MarthofNaggaroth]

Why do you assume that beacuse I don't agree with the tier system I'm bad at the game. I've had this game since it came out. And I've seen a lot of sucky people who said they were great but when it came down to it were not. At this ACON tournament I went to with KirbyofNurgle and some others, they had a Melee tournament event. He won. THey sucked. We are both pretty close when it comes to skill level. End of point. Now you can choose wheter or not you think I"m a newbie based on the fact that I don't agree with you. But truly I think you're just using an underhanded way to bash me.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Uh.....heres comes the tier flame wars again.........

Anyway as much as I like both Bowser and Mewtwo I still think they belong neck and neck or at least above DK.
To be honest the only character I've ever seen as the true lower tier is DK.

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

riiiiight

So because your friend won a convention FFA tournament, the tiers that are based on 1v1 are incorrect? You're insane. There is no correlation there. Go to San Antonio (there's a smashfest on Saturday) and you'll get schooled. We'll see how his Kirby stacks up in a real 1v1 fight. I'd bet a large sum of money that he gets tooled. Badly.

The rules at akon (mainly the fact that it was FFA) mean that it's pretty worthless as a judge of skill. And post people who attend conventions suck.

Barring that, at least attend the MOAST in January.

Until then, you probably shouldn't talk.

-B

 

[MarthofNaggaroth]

First of all the corelation there is that he schooled with Kirby. A not-so-well character according to the tier system. Perhaps you should think of this. The tier system proves little in relation to the characters. Every character has hidden abilities to exploit regardless of which character that may be and while it could be said that certain characters are more often picked and certain people who choose these characters are more often better than other people who pick less favored characters this is truth tells nothing aside from how popular certain characters are. The skill to use each character remains there regardless of what most people generally pick. If I still lived in San Antonio I would love to go to that tournament but since I don't I can't compete in that contest of skills. I can talk all I want even if I don't attend the MOAST. I'm sure it's fairly likely to assume other people on these boards have not participated in such events. And even if they have the boards are an easy place to exaggerate on one's Melee. The tier sytem continues to be debated. And yet the talking continues.

 

[Yokoson]

Tiers is Melee? I guess there are some characters that are easier to play as and thusly makes their performance in battle greater but saying that people with equall skill can be separated by choice in characters is rubbish. Sure there some characters have advantages over other characters raging from minute to fair, it's nothing that can't be compensated through adapation. A clear display of tiers can be seen in the fighter Marvel Vs Capcom 2 (MvC2). If people of equal skill fight, one playing as Servbot and the other as Mageto there is no chance (not one chance) that Servebot will win. Every new trick and combo that is discovered in that game is best exploited by the tiers (Mageto, Sentenal, Cable). I'm not saying that there aren't tiers in Melee but i am saying that the difference between the greatness of characters in close to nil.

 

[CORY]

rice fairy

what the fro? kirbyofnurgle's the kirby kid? lol! he's such a no0b! if you don't realize that the akon tourney was pure bunk then you're an idiot. you cannot place tiers or even rate skills accurately in ffa, especially in the gay *** final round they had. i won't go so far as to say that kirbykid wouldn't have won if it had been one on one, but he probably wouldn't have gotten so far unless everyone else there sucked (which isn't true.)

if you can't realize that tourney set up affects the reflection of skill, then you need to get out and get some more serious outside comp in.

and, no, you shouldn't be just talking about crap that you have no idea about and can't prove as though it's true and has been proven or at least backed up pretty well. in most every tourney talked about here, the top and upper tiers are the ones who the winners used. and there's a reason for that: not that those are the more popular characters but that they have more advantages. these guys aren't no0bs who play the characters that everyone says is better. they play with who they believe to be the best and when you get tourney with close skill ranges and a fox, falco, or shiek wins, and not just wins, but wins consistently, that says something about how that character has a little bit extra going for it.

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

yes, you are daring...but are you also...BOLD?

Read my post. Note that I, knowing the intelligence level of my audience, conveniently put "FFA" and "1v1" in BOLD. Apparently, I grossly overestimated said intelligence, as you still didn't come close to understanding.

Some other people from these boards were at the AKON tourney, saw your friend's Kirby, and didn't think he was that good. He won because the rules were bunk (Of course with a 200 person tourney, you're not going to have ideal rules). There was unanimous agreement that he absolutely paled in comparison to, say, Crono12345's Fox. (heh, whaddaya know? A top tier character.)

Yeah, other people on the boards HAVE been to tournaments. And I'd say that being kind to you in my estimation, at least 90% of tournaments anyone has heard of (1v1 tournaments), the winner has been a Fox, Falco, or Sheik. Wonder what that says?

-B

 

[MarthofNaggaroth]

That says that these characters are more frequently used by players of greater skill but it still does not prove your point about the tier system. Fewer people play as the lower-tiered characters. I have yet to see many people play with much variety in thier character choice. But the characters are still pretty well balanced. Some may be slightly easier to use but. gtg I'll write more later.

 

[Yokoson]

Bee Tuna are you sure you and Kirby are talking about the right tourny. KirbyofNurgle attended the AKON in the DFW airport area ( i forget the hotel). First off none of Kirby's friends got to play (i should know i am one of them) so that comment about their skill is now baseless. A unanimous agreement that he paled in comparison to another character? I don't know where you picked this up but it was pretty much unamimous that Kirby schooled everyone there ( I mean he didn't even take the matches seriously). He threw out some basic abilities and the other contestants went down hard because yes everyone else that i saw play that day were...um not up to snuff to put it kindly.

 

[PimpLuigi]

if fox falco sheik are more popular than they should be, it's only because theyre good.

From what i've seen the most popular/used characters are guys like Link, Marth, and yes Kirby(before they figure out Kirby's not that good)

-Pimp

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Reviewing the AKON topic

I found that the people who attended akon gave your friend's Kirby mad props. Despite those props, there was still complete agreement that Crono12345's Fox was far, far better and that he was the real "best in Texas". It appears as well that Crono challenged your friend to a match but your friend wussed out. Probably because he knew he'd lose and then his thunder from winning a tourney would get stolen.

Marth, more people play the top tier characters because people don't like to lose. They start off trying any old character. Then, when they find that the character they picked sucks, they switch to a better one. This leads them to pick a top tier character. THAT is why top tiers are popular. Like Pimp said, it seems by reading newbies posting here Kirby tends to be a very popular character. Then people realize he sucks and he becomes very unpopular.

Do you guys honestly think FFA's are a good test of skill? And the finals, with very high items and still FFA? Those settings suck.

-B

 

[Novowels]

[scrub]

shut up bmuble tee! yuo are teh st00pid!

kirby is teh best one evar!!!!!!!11

i know becuz i beat my freind all teh time!!!!!!!!!111

and he's raelly good with falco, he amlost nevar sefl destructses!!!!!!!!!1111

you suck, you don't know what yuor'e tolking aboot!!!!!!!!!!!11

i hate yuo!!!1

[/scrub]

 

[Sirus011]

hmmm.....

An interesting discussion to say the least.

I don't entirely agree with the teir system as I am a firm beleiver that it requires skill to use any of the chars in melee. I do however see some characters above others, HOWEVER... almost everyone has a diffrent view on what chars are better than others so I'm not sure of tier validity. This is only proven by those posts that put the chars rated lower in most teirs towards the top.
I believe Ganondorf is top tier as with constant use I've become extremely good with him but I realize others disagree. Thats fine as someone who is good with other chars would most likely place their best char in the top of the ranking. My point is that our views as to who is better than others are colored by our experiances in the game.

Now just for fun I will post my tier rating. Some will disagree but thats ok remember that these veiws are drawn from my experiances within the game.

These are in order from top teir to lower in case there is any confusion.

Fox\Falco\Ganondorf

Sheik\Dr.mario\Peach

Link\Marth\Mario\Zelda

Mewtwo\Dk\Cap. Falcon

Jigglypuff\Samus\Yoshi

YoungLink\Roy\Kirby

Ness\Iceclimbers\Yoshi

Pikachu\Pichu

Bowser\G&W


Now let me explain a lil.

I split mario and the doc mainly because I've had more experiance fighting the doc and I've found his longer cape and the stunning effect of those godawful pills to be very annoying when trying to get close, I've found ways around them though heh heh.

I put sheik lower on the tier scale because my rival plays nothing but sheik and as such I've developed my tactics to counter his chars abilities, thusly he got a lower ranking.

One further note: The tier is not ordered left to right it is only ordered from top to bottom the placement in the listings from left to right is random.

 

[SmashBroPro]

FFA with items on high is a party game. Skill gets tossed head long out of the window as does the validity of the proKirby argument when we are talking about 1:1 abilities. Not to say that FFA with items on high isn't fun (I prefer my old standby item Souther Comfort 100 to make it that much more amusing. Drunken invinsibilty!), but you can hardly use it to base which character is better or who has more l337 skillz.

At any rate from what I heard the 'basic skills" Kirby demonstrated was floating and running. Maybe I heard wrong but Cory is a pretty reliable poster. Not to say there is anything wrong with that, with those ridicolous rules I might do the same thing with Peach, but if that's the case it's pretty foolish to brag.

So why not just settle this at MOAST? Or perhaps you guys would like to live off the second hand glory of a FFA tournament. Oh btw my father lives in Houston and invited me down there for Christmas break so at the moment I'd estimate there is a 50/50 chance that I'll be in attendance .

 

[NJE789]

Skill=tier=wrong

It sounds like you're tiering characters based on your skill with them. I think Ganondorf is a little underrated too, but not that much. he's right below top tier in my opinion, but could never be top tier because he just lacks the speed, which is a must for a top tier. It's not that hard to just play defensively against him, and punish his lag after he attacks. Mewtwo is at the bottom, with Bowser and pichu, and the reason they were specifically tier'd is beyond me. The mbr should of just grouped them all below a line and called it "bottom tier". It would of reduced the arguing over them, and who really cares where the characters ranked that low are. The tiers aren't just based on experience (which by the way is usually from tournaments), stats, move priority, and lag are also considered.

 

[CORY]

rice fairy

um, yeah, b and sbp summed it up pretty well. kirby kid was pretty good at akon, but the tourney set up was bunk. you need to realize that. you cannot judge skill from ffa because in ffa all you need to do is hang back and hide out a bit to win. how do i know? shee-hut, if we play ffa what do you think i try to do? go in, hit a few people, but mostly try to hang back a bit. and in a truly competitive environment you also get ***** tactics and ganging up going on which diminishes the showing of skill even more. go see how silas and his roommate broke a recent ffa tourney up at utd by using ***** tactics. (something along the lines of sgd tourney results.)

and thusly, tiers are based off of one on one situations. one on one is the clearest showing of individual skill because you don't have to worry about some other person taking you out while you try to edge guard or the other person's (or even your own...) teammate hitting you while you try to do something.

man, that's rambly but i think you can pick out the important parts here and there.

 

[Veg]

originally posted by Pimp

"Mew just wasn't as good. It's like he's got some sort of hole in his game."

Yes, maybe cause all his moves except 2 are only ONE DIRCECTIONAL ATTACKS THAT COVER A SMALL AREA AND ONLY DO AVERAGE/LITTLE DAMAGE.

(even his down spinny tail move is ONE direction, i didn't think it was at first but it is. . . .. pathetic.)

^ i believe thats the problem, oh and confusion and disable suck. . .

I still love mewtwo though, hes just cool. Hes still and always will be my main character for that reason alone.

 

[MarthofNaggaroth]

First of all Bumble Bee I know the difference between FFA and 1 vs. 1. You guys make it out to be a big difference in skills and that may be someplaces but not where I'm from. The people I play with are smarter than the average computer and don't just bunch in a circle dishing off random hits. In a FFA no one hides. Usually for us it ends up as two seperate duels until they get too close to each other or someone breaks off to do something else. In this sense FFA for us, while not being 100% true to skill is generally pretty accurate. The skill levels are pretty much what they are in 1 vs. 1 battles. And the matches are more fun. Of course at tourney's FFA is not the best way to judge skill but people playing in FFA's should realize they have to fight a hiding character or they will lose. Skill is also somewhat present of how good you can handle a Melee situation. You have to watch your back and concentrate on more than one thing at a time. Also your comment about my intelligence about not understanding FFA and 1 vs. 1 battles was not only untrue, but even if it was I would be ignorant not unintelligent. The fact that I can log-on to a computer and give you arguements should indicate that I at least have a basic knowledge and intelligence. Thus the only thing I could possibly have had at fault was not knowing about. But I do know. About the "unanimous agreement against kirby: First of all I'd like to see who said that. Your friends tend to agree with you. And second I don't care who thinks he's the "best in Texas" he still lost. It sounds more like someone wants to protect thier ego about how great they are to me. Fox may very well be better, but there's no way to even bring up how good he is if he hasn't even won. People I know agree my friend's one of the best players around. Do you see how ludicrous that sounds? I'm not trying to bash ChronoFox or you; I just would like you to realize how little that argument has an effect. You still can't prove how good the tier system is. The fact that there's a good possibility that 2 characters at oposite ends of the tiers can face each other effectively negates to the tier system in my opinion. Or at least brings it down to only slight differences. About settling this at MOAST: Well I guess we can see who's better at the game but what does that prove? I play as Marth obviously so if I win you'd show me his high tier ranking. And even if Kirby loses it won't prove it. The fact is most people play as those higher tier characters so there is more likelihood one of them will win the matches. The rest is pure coincidence.

 

[CORY]

rice fairy

you still don't get it, do you? the reason the top tiers are top tiers isn't because they're more popular and thusly more used. the reason they're top tier is because they have fewer disadvantages than many of the other characters.

fox was one of the first that people pointed out as top tier. the reason: he racks up damage quick, falls fast so he can't be juggled, the fast fall makes him a good ccer so he can get out of comboes alright, his recovery is very good, and he has two ludicrously strong finishers, his up smash and up air.

his biggest disadvantage is his weight which is made up for by his fall speed so he doesn't get off the platform much and his recovery which gets him back on the platform very well. after that is the fact that he can get counter staged pretty easily.

the current toppest tier (in general consensus) is shiek. she has a bit more combo-ability than fox because of more reach, her recovery is better than fox's in a way because she can't be caped or otherwise screwed while recovering and she can change to zelda to gain more distance. and she has good finishers as well: her up and forward air are first in mind and then her down and up smash do pretty well also. she's a bit heavier than fox and falls a bit slower so she stays boarded a bit easier also.

her disadvantages... we have a highly dedicated staff of researchers still trying to find a definite disadvantage for shiek. we'll let you know once we do.

so, after that long and ardurous ramble, the moral of the story is that the top tiers are used more because of the fact that they're better overall, not the other way around. if you're truly better, as you seem to believe you are, then it won't matter if there happen to be more ffs players around, you'll beat them. and if you lose one match there's the loser's bracket to climb so you still have a chance to make it to the top. you can't say that the reason ffs is better is because they're used more, there's no logic behind it.

and ffa isn't a good measure of skill, no matter how you try to make it so. if you guys play as you describe (two one on one's, basically) then you should just drop ffa and work on one on one. ffa is only good for really making you get used to doing a bunch of quick moves then backing off because if you get caught up in something long you'll get hit from behind if your opponents are smart. if they don't because of some arbritary ruling, then you guys are scrubs. you can't gauge skill accurately in ffa because of that and blatant turtle favorings.

 

[Yokoson]

It sounds like what your describing with the tier system is the natural abilites of the characters. And in that since yes the tier system works. But to say someone would win over someone else because the other person picks a low tier character is is foolish. It could be possible that the person playing as Bowser, or Kirby might use that character in just the right way so as to beat any top tier. That's all I'm saying.

Done I am, Rest I will.

 

[MarthofNaggaroth]

If your tier-system works then would you admit you had less skill if beaten by a lower-rated tier character? Obviously certain characters differ in thier moves. And some are easier to use, but the possibility of winning with lower tier characters is still pretty apparent. Characters are not that far apart in terms of useability.