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The MBR average tiers

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kirbykid

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OK, OK. This is how it all went down. I have no reason to lie or to bend the truth. I went to A-kon in Dallas with a friend. I have no idea there was going to be a Melee tournament. When I got there, I freaked because I hadn't been to an official tournament yet.
I sign up, and while I was there, some guy told me to go to www.smashboards.com. He was wearing a plain white T-shirt that he had written on, advertising smashboards. (I thought this board must be awsome to produce this kind of loyalty.) Just about everyone was older that me (15) but that didn't matter. When my time rolled around, I was matched up with a little kid and a 30-40 year old man on the Zebes level. I picked kirby, they picked link and samus. Needless to say I took them both out only losing one stock. Fun fun, no one knew of my power yet, but they soon would.
I sat down for my next match. By brother advised me to turn hyper Kirby (changing from pink to yellow kirby, similar to going super sayanjin). I said that I would wait for the final battle for I knew I was going to win. For some reason no one would fight me, so I had to fight them. They died. The last guy kept trying to run away from me. By the way the stage was Mushroom Kingdom. So I grabbed a Mr. Freezie out of the air and threw it straight up, and then grabbed a ba-bomb. I faked him out with the bomb and smashed him into the air. The he hit my on comming freezie. Needless to say, from that combo, he didn't come back.
Now it was time for the Final Battle. I powered up into hyper kirby and we selected final destination with 7 stock each. In the match there was fox (crono12345) Link and Samus I believe. Let me tell you, their skill levels were very low. All of their moves were predictable.I began to school them all. They had each lost about 4 stock when I had lost my first. I didn't even try in that match. It was just too easy. When the match started winding down, they then realized that I was womping them. That's when someone said, "let's gang up on Kirby". I said, "It won't help you." and it didn't. I wasn't even fighting seriously. I let them kill me twise. #1 I let fox use his "skills" on me by letting him hit me with a thrown homerun bat. I just stood still and took the attack. #2 I did the same with Samus's superscope blast. After I won. Everyone RUSH EDUP TO ME, and asked if I could train them 1on1. But because I came to A-kon for the ANIME and not Melee, and My friends ride was waiting outside, I HAD to go. There's no wussing out about it.
Fox might have been the 2nd or 3rd best player there, but he DIDN"T show any advanced techniques or skills. Just plain common fox CPU techniques. I on the other had showed sign of REFLECTING and catching items in the air, and mild wding. I even used my reflection to kill samus.
I wasn't even good back then. I didn't have vary many techniques and tactics and I wasn't fighting to my full potential. Best in Texas hardly. I have two friends that can back me, who saw it FIRST HAND. They don't need to hear the wrong stories from anyone. END OF DISCUSSION.
 

MarthofNaggaroth

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I have a question about the tier system. How far apart are the characters per tier. Take the top level character vs. the lowest for instance. What would be required to win skill wise.
 

Gilgamesh

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her disadvantages... we have a highly dedicated staff of researchers still trying to find a definite disadvantage for shiek. we'll let you know once we do.
LOL CORY, don't worry, eentually we'll prove Samus can counter Sheik...

Kirbyofnurgle.... so you had bad competition..? and played FFA? and everyone joined forces against you? and you won? And you "powered up" (eh) kirby? Then if you had such lousy competition, it doesn't peove much skill on your side either.
 

kirbykid

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exactly.
I didn't have that many skills.
And I went into the touny when I haven't played the game in a while.
Now I have plenyt of tricks to go around.
If you go to MOAST, you'll see.
 

CORY

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rice fairy

lol! kirbykid, i'm the guy wearing the plain white tshirt! lol! long time for you to decide to join, eh? anyway, silas taped that last match and we've watched it many a time. some things to say:

one: pat, one of our crew (now in the gc hating minnesota) made second. he brought you down from three lives to one while he had only one. you can't say you totally owned up on them.

second: crono didn't make it to the finals. he got gang ***** and had a bad controller in the second round so he got taken out single elimination style...

well, back to the first point: you can't say you were hand over hand better than everyone else there because when it came down to you vs. pat pat had one life and you had about four. he then took you from four lives to one with his one and lost to stupidity because he tried to grab a bobomb but didn't realize he had a lip's stick in his hand already. for some reason, i think that makes you less skilled than him to be taken down so many lives from so much without killing him.

and then you make it sound like you suddenly got better while we've stagnated. unfortunately both me and silas have gotten hella exposure from cali and a crapload of us are going down to san antonio this weekend to practice up more (and see what the fro is up with crystal city...) on top of that we've had pretty consisent (up until now) weekly practice sessions. i'd say we've learned some pretty nifty tricks ourselves, my friend.

alright, now to marth: between adjacent tiers, the difference is slight. top tier is just a bit better than upper, but it's enough to separate them. then upper is a bit above mid up, so on, so forth. but when you take top vs. bottom, you have a serious disadvantage to the bottom tier because little bits add up. and yes, if someone beat my marth with gdubya/bowser/pichu i'll say they have serious skill advantages over me.
 

kirbykid

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do you have the vid so I can see it? I have no idea who crono12345 was, that's why I said, I think. Its been a long time.
Of course it looked like I sucked in the 1 on 1. I wasn't trying, what don't you get about that. I didn't need to try was demonstrated. Yes less silled. Heres' me not trying, :cool: and here's him blowing his brains out trying to take out my stock :crazy: any questions. We've all gotten better, just how much, and will it save you.
 

MarthofNaggaroth

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THanks for the info Cory. In that sense I think I can agree to the tier-system. What I really meant was that just beacuse you pick a low-tier character it doesn't mean it's impossible to win with them. I also just hate it when people say something like: "I beat you and I did it with *insert low tier character*. That just irritates me. Marth out.
 

Gilgamesh

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Originally posted by MarthofNaggaroth
THanks for the info Cory. In that sense I think I can agree to the tier-system. What I really meant was that just beacuse you pick a low-tier character it doesn't mean it's impossible to win with them. I also just hate it when people say something like: "I beat you and I did it with *insert low tier character*. That just irritates me. Marth out.
Well, that's the problem with tier-disagreers.. it's not IMPOSSIBLE to beat an upper tier with a low tier, it's just very hard. For example, i have beaten my lil bro with my mewtwo, while he used fox, and we're pretty experienced and equally good. But obviously that happens like 2/10 times. To avoid misunderstandings i insist, we should have an official tier explanation topic sticked to he first page. Who agrees with me?

Heres' me not trying, and here's him blowing his brains out trying to take out my stock
which he apparently succeeded in, until he blown himself out. I mean if he really did start to lower your stock, why didn't you put more effort into it? Were you trying to have 1 stock in each side to make it fair? uh-huh. And yeah, i think i'l go to MOAST. I'll see you there.
 

jv3x3

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Of course it looked like I sucked in the 1 on 1. I wasn't trying, what don't you get about that.
Com'on out of all the excuses i have seen that is at the bottom of the barrel, not trying, lol. First you were talking about how you owned everyone then when it was brought up that someone was owning you the story immediately switches to lack of effort. Granted, I didnt see the match, but cory has been proven as a pretty reliable guy and i dont see him making stuff up. Common sense says, even if at first you werent trying being up so many stock, when he starts taking down stock like that you start trying. And out of pride throughout the whole thing you dont want it to look like you are getting owned at anytime. I dont know man sounds kinda shady to me. Just go to Moast you and the marth guy... and then if you prove yourself you will get all the props in the world around here.

P.S. MarthofNaggaroth, you still dont understand tiers and im not gonna explane them, go to bumblebeetuna's post in dogysmaichs tier list topic and read it.... then you will understand.
 

SmashBroPro

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I still don't see why Samus is a better match-up against Sheik than Luigi. Luigi for president!

Well I guess MOAST will be the proving grounds. Personally I think Kirbyofnurgle is setting himself up Snappy style, but hey I guess we'll see Jan. At any rate I have yet to see a decent Kirby so it'll be interesting.
 

CORY

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alright, marth, as long as you understand that tiering doesn't mean definite wins. most anti-tiers don't understand that point.

as for kirbykid, into excuses, eh? how about this: i didn't make it to the finals because i got too caught up trying to show who's marth was better: mine, silas', or scav's to notice will's fox picking us off at random. silas didn't make it because he was talking to a chick and got hit by a car during the distraction. scave didn't make it because i was gunning after him (he was a stranger then. stranger danger!) and then will was pikcing off anyone over 90 damage so he went out fast. and how do you know crono wasn't trying either? you make it sound like you're so leet that no one had a chance there, that you seem to forget your telling me that you actually missed the first round and took someone's spot who didn't come up during the call. what's to say you wouldn't have faced crono, me, silas, scav, will, trey, pat, or one of our other people who were there and lost? you technically shouldn't have won since you didn't make your first round (thusly showing the ridiclous setup the tourney people had.)

you can't say that you're automatically better than us because of that. i made it to semis at akon. then when i went to tg3 the weekend before school began, i placed ninth. and tg competition is better than akon competition to the nth degree. you know, this is spammy. take this to the moast thread in the tournament room (right below this room if you click the super smash bros. melee link at the top of your page.) we can trash talk and argue to no end there without feeling like idiots for spamming up this topic.
 

kirbykid

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How laxed do you think you have to play to beat someone with four stock. That's right. I will see all of you at MOAST and we'll see. There's no use talking about how reliable someone if. Fetch off if you weren't there or haven't seen it. No use getting more people dragged in. Not trying and school do coincide. Come on people. Just because you can't understands, doesn't mean you have the right to argue. Somepeople believe in giving the people a good show. The outcome of the match was the same as it would have been if I had tried. So there isn't any harm of taking my skills down a few levels. I didn't say if crono was or wasn't trying. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care. He didn't win. As for Silias, if he complained (I'm not saying he did or didn't), that was completely his fault. It's your fault trying to show up whos Marth was better too. If you would have won that should have been enough.
That's right. I missed my first shot at the tourny. But I came to A-kon for anime, so it's understandable that I was just minutes late. But I played all of my rounds. I got a bide, something completely out of my control.
 

PorCorpWis

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.

Not that I particularly like snap pop, SmashBroPro, but I don't think that's really an accurate comparison between them. From what I've heard snap was at least a good player... this kirby dude obviously and blatantly sucks... I'd wager $20 (or more) that most of us could take him apart without too much effort. (Just so he can't complain that he wasn't trying as hard as us.)
 

SmashBroPro

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meh. I don't know the pretournie crap'o meter is pretty high for the both of them. I mean at least kirby-of-lame-tournament actually won a tournament. While Snap legend in her own mind Pop bested the mightest competitors her basement could offer.

Of course they both pail drastically to the living proofs that you can be a complete idiot and still play SSBM at a high level with RobFalco and company.

If you read some of the pre TG3 you'll see a lot of people saying that based on her posts she obviously sucked (*cough* lastplace *cough*) before she turned out to at least be competitive before being knocked out in straight sets.
 

Gilgamesh

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this kirby dude obviously and blatantly sucks
Yeah, just reading his posts takes one to this conclusion. (powered up to yellow kirby?.. gah! and just look at the kirby thread... up throw the best throw? kirby the best character ever?) and other opinions he has given. I'd really like to go to MOAST but of course most of you guys know i cannot. (hehe like pimp said there's nothing like bragging being an outsider and having no way to back it up)
 

PorCorpWis

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I like to judge books by their covers. Besides, I think placing in the top 10 in TG is a lot better than winning some crappy FFA very high items tournament.
 

SmashBroPro

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Well if I had to guess I'd say that Snappy is probally better than Kirbyofnurgle just based on the whole "people like a good show" excuse for having his stock total trimmed and I'd stick with Cory's skill assesment of the two.

Now on the other hand I've never played a really good Kirby in 1:1 (probaly because there isn't one to be had :p) and a lot of time has passed since that tournament so you never know.

At any rate I'm rooting for anyone (hopefully myself) to beat Kirbyofnurgle and RobFalco's crew. Now I really want to find a ride there.
 

SilencedViolence

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If reality is what my mind percieves, then I might
Well... I think Gilga asked if we should ahve the tier explanation stickied... so I agree... c'mon people... we need it... it shouldn't take up to much bandwidth... adn I'm sure it will save far more by giving us no reason to explain tiers over and over again... and who knows... maybe some noobs will actually look... lol... not that I ever did... I just didn't post any topics for like 2 - 3 months after I registered and ust replied... hmmm... Anyway... whatever... just prove it at the MOAST... I can't go since I'm NJ... maybe if I get to s
mores's tourney... althoguh as I ahve repeated often I doubt my parents would let me and even if they did I wouldn't be to grat. Anyway... this is lame... why are we arguing if the kirby guy that powered up is lame or not... its a tier topic and if he thinks kirby is the best becuase if he's extremely skilled and/or overconfident then oh well... he just won't gain any respect from the SWF vets... plus... even if he wins the MOAST it won't prove much since he's been bragging that he is so skilled. This would imply that he only one due to his skills and not kirby... and although he gts alot of creadit for winning... it doesn't rise kirby's tier status as much as some1 like me or snap pop would. Anyway... um... this is getting spammy... although I'll reply as long as there's something good to say.
 

Silas Elias

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Hey guys, I finally saw this thread. I don't hang out in Discussion much cuz Melee Tournaments is my home. I wanna ask the kids from The Mound (to me you guys are kids) to please not assume anything about me based on what people say. If you would, please visit the Tournament room and respond to what I have to say here, in any of the Texas threads.

BTW, I was the guy with the videocamera standing to the right of the Kirby player. And, IMO the Kirby user DID, rock. Heh, he like posed after every sweet move he made, it was actually entertaining. Well, contact me in real time if you can. My AIMs is AznExplosN.

I'm the Host of The MOAST.
 

Nobie

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Gasp, it's Azn "Molly Nut Bomb" ExplosN. Man, between you, NeoSyrex, and apparently Yavarice, this looks to be where former Pokemon players go.
 

Gilgamesh

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well, i don't say that THIS thread should be stickied, but rather make a new one, with a nice, straight explanation on what the tier concept is, and maybe (just maybe) post a "semi-official" tier based on polls in the MBR and updated every once in a while... but the explanation is enough. BBT's explanation(s) was very good, perhaps he could post it.
 

SilencedViolence

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If reality is what my mind percieves, then I might
Ok... um... Gilga... BBT... all the important ppl that have influence... I feel it would definitely be benificial to hurry up this "sticky the tier stuff" process... because... well why not? It will make possible for more detailed dsicussions about tiers to develop... instead of constantly repeating the same tier explanations over and over again. At the beginning of any tier discussion the topic starter could just say "Go here if you are unsure about what tiers are considered in SWF." "here" would of course be a link to the stickied tier topic.

I think maybe the MBR should have a vote if it is completely necessary... since it would take to long to sort through all the noob replies of "no... tiers are all about skill" and you'll be assured of the vote's quality... or at elast as assured as much as you are sure that the MBR people are intelligent and quality posters. Anyway... I think it would help...

Actually... it would be a good idea to take action similar to this whenever a major topic comes up that every new person disagrees with. Hmmm...

Why do I feel like something is wrong with this post. Oh well... anyway... consider it... since this topic is kind of useless right now since its too spammy and stuff... we could just make an official tier explanation topic... sticky it and close it, of course. And then in the MBR and possibly in MD, we can make an official tier discussion topic, although probably not in the MD... since it would get incredibly spammy... but the problem is... most, if not all, people in the MBR agree on the explanation and definintion of tiers. And then... of coruse... the MBR should have a tier voting topic which will be opened for a certain amount of tiem each month to take on votes... and then the results can be posted in both forums.

Anyway... I'm sure my proposition has mistakes, problems, inconsistencies, ect. and its mainly up to you guys anyway.
 

Masked

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I feel this topic could use another bumping...

The most neglected character in the game is DK. Was there any controversy in tiering DK or other neglected characters?
 

Qinopio

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How about we do this again? See how everyones' opinions have changed since then, and give some of the new people (me) a chance to vote.
 

Masked

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That would be a good idea: it could display the differences between yesterday's tiers and todays, and we can see what advancements in belief or discovery changed the tiers. We could then adjust our playing styles accordingly.

BTW, when will we get the next MBR waves? There's some promise in some non-MBR people.
 

Isamu RookZ

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I'm thinking Ice Climbers shoulda been higher...
and Pikachu is nowhere near the calibre of Link.

That's about it.
 

jv3x3

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ICs have too many problems when seperated, which equates to too many stage disadvantages. Pika, smokes link sorry. Link sucks.
 

x_3_9

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Zelda over the Doc and Peach? hahaha...

Show me your best Zelda and I'll pummel it. As a matter of fact, show me your best Mario too.
 

jv3x3

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x_3_9

The zelda score was wack. A lot of people put zelda and sheik together so it ended up scewing everything.
 

Gilgamesh

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I don't give a **** about your opinions. (J/K)

That was only an average of that time's MBR tier opinions, which, by the way, have to be actualized about now. (minor changes, but still worth it.)
 

phrederick

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So what the **** is all this supposed to mean? I thouroughly kick *** as Roy, Link, and plenty of others guys, but why do they have ratings? I'm not quite sure what this all means, is it how good they are? this stuff doesn't make sense, cause everybody uses different strats for different people. :( I don't understand!!
 

Gilgamesh

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Read any of the 1353.5 tier topics out there and you'll have a clear idea. *sigh*
 

NJE789

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Finally making a few changes to that craptacular tier chart?
Ok, here's my input:Move Mewtwo above Bowser and Pichu, move Kirby below G&W, and of course, raise Yoshi to upper tier.
Hmm.. yeah.. take the regular tier chart, do that, and you've more or less got my own tier chart, 'cept Ganondorf & Marth are a little higher. Ganondorf isn't as slow as some think, especially if you know how to use his diagonal tilt+A's, and anyone that knows how to use Marth's shield grab can understand why he should be raised to high tier.
 

Sinclair

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4.9 Sheik
4.8 Falco, Fox
4.4 Marth
4.1 Mario
4.0 Zelda, Samus, Luigi
3.9 Peach
3.8 Dr. Mario
3.5 Ice Climbers, Ganondorf
3.4 Pikachu, Link
3.2 Captain Falcon, Young Link
3.1 Jigglypuff, Ness
2.9 Yoshi, Donkey Kong
2.8 Roy
2.1 Kirby
1.8 Mr. Game and Watch
1.6 Pichu, Bowser
1.3 Mewtwo

Heheh, I guess since everyone else is offering their opinions, I will too...

TOP
Sheik, Falco, Fox, Marth
MID-TOP
Mario, Peach, Samus, Luigi
MID
Ice Climbers, Ganondorf, Link, Dr. Mario, Pikachu, Captain Falcon, Young Link, Roy, Zelda
MID-LOW
Jigglypuff, Ness, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Mr. Game and Watch, Mewtwo
LOW
Pichu, Bowser

But I mean, really... no, actually, that's pretty close to what I think, I suppose... though I would honestly like to eliminate two of those levels and go for something more like...

TOP
Sheik, Falco, Fox, Marth, Mario, Peach, Samus.
MID
Ice Climbers, Ganondorf, Link, Dr. Mario, Pikachu, Captain Falcon, Young Link, Roy, Zelda, Luigi, Jigglypuff, Ness, Yoshi, Kirby, Mr. Game and Watch.
LOW
Pichu, Bowser, Mewtwo, Donkey Kong.

Moisson de Peine!
 

Gilgamesh

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Originally posted by NJE789
Finally making a few changes to that craptacular tier chart?
Ok, here's my input:Move Mewtwo above Bowser and Pichu, move Kirby below G&W, and of course, raise Yoshi to upper tier.
Hmm.. yeah.. take the regular tier chart, do that, and you've more or less got my own tier chart, 'cept Ganondorf & Marth are a little higher. Ganondorf isn't as slow as some think, especially if you know how to use his diagonal tilt+A's, and anyone that knows how to use Marth's shield grab can understand why he should be raised to high tier.
*******. Your input won't affect it. it's a mbr average, and particular opinions won't change the finished result.

Actually this post has a meaning.. i posted to inform that the new tier will be posted soon, but don't expect many surprising changes, as it's just an update..... although for what i'm seeing Marth will probably go up...
 

jv3x3

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lol, Sinclair gives tier list

Wasnt he the one who argued tiers didnt exsist forever. And then he gives one, and to top that of it aint bad.

edit: lol, i knew it. That just made my day, he switched from the dark side (or stupid *** side, whatever you wanna call it). The problem with your 3 tier system is you have to much variation between the top in each tier and the bottom. I almost prefer to list the characters by numbers, cause i run into the same problem, to a lesser degree, in a 5 tier system.
 

Sinclair

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****it, I've been found out! Okay, I changed my mind, sue me, I was wrong... :p But still, I prefere my 3 Level Tier List to a 5 Level one because it knits the characters a little closer together, whereas I find that the 5 Level one emphasizes a much larger priority/skill/potential gap between characters. How I see it is that the largest difference is really only between the Lowest and Highest Tiers, and the Middle-High and Middle-Low tiers may as well be in one or the other. :D

But then, my 5 Level one isn't totally moot... it is plausible, of course.
 

SmashBroPro

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I think you're missing the point of Tiers. They are simply a stepping stone towards establishing a more accurate character ranking. At this point we don't have enough experience to say exactly were every character lies in rank, so we compromise and place characters that are close together.

At first it was a question of good vs. bad (or more likely "This character sucks!"). So we originally had characters that we knew were good or at least solid, characters that were pretty bad, and characters we weren't sure on. Essentially a 3 tier system. Now as various tournaments are taking place and people have had the chance to learn most of the intricate secrets of the game we are at the point where a 5 tier system is more appropriate.

True the difference in my tier from any of the tier above or below it is relatively small, but it's defianetly there. As we continue to play the game are exposed to more styles and skilled players the list will become even more set. I'm sure the day is soon approaching in Japan in which they can list every character in terms of potential and be very accurate.
 

firaga01

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I dont really believe we can establish a pernament tier system.

For example, Bowser does suck in a lot of areas, but when your opponent chooses to be another heavy hitter like DK, by all means, choose Mario's archnemesis!

On the other hand, if you pick Bowser to fight Fox in Final Destination, the match is obviously lop-sided.

Each character can fight for his own right against certain characters. one cannot just say that the character "sucks" because he is overpowered by another character in a particular field.

If a tier system was really to be established, it should be based on a character's ratio of favorable matches to unfavorable rather than the potential of such characters.

Remember, in the arms of a skilled player, any character can hold its own weight.
 
D

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I feel like joining this one. IMO, Pichu and Mewtwo aren't nearly that bad. These stats sound true, but I still don't like them. IMO:

Top:
Fox, Shiek, Marth, Samus, Dr. Mario

High:
Falco, Luigi, Ganondorf, Ness, Mario

Medium:
Young Link, Peach, Roy, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Kirby

Low:
Falcon, Zelda, Pichu, Pikachu, Ice Climbers

Bottom:
Bowser, Link, Game, DK, Yoshi

That's just me, I'm sure. I still think Fox beats Shiek in general and that Game and Die is the worst. I'll admit, Mewtwo is very tricky, too much for most people, but he still beats Zelda's best. Zelda just doesn't have the supportive stats.

I seperated the Marios for a reason: I don't that that Mario is agile enough to compensate for Dr. Mario's power. Jigglypuff's specials are hard to compete with (except Sing *shudder*) and Roy's got a nice defensive move set to work with.

And Fox, Marth, and Samus own Sheik badly. :p
 
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