The MK Legal Ruleset Discussion

[Sorto]

To #1- Have never seen any of those rules actually being enforced in 64 or Melee, maybe wobbling, but even that one is stupid since it's just marginally easier than actually chaingrabbing.
Sonic's HA stall isn't even mentioned in the URC ruleset anymore since it's that bad.

In fact, when has any of these stalling rules actually been used aside from the IDC one???
All these forms of "stalling" actually damage an opponent (aside from Sonic's horrible HA stalling, which just gets him murdered), so using them to stall is downright unsportsmanlike since you can just as easily take the win earlier.

IDC is banned for the sole reason the only REAL purpose it serves is to stall. People frown upon stalling with grabs and infinites, but the reason for this is that they're just making it out of a badwilled desire of running the clock unnecesarrily, when they could kill them with the same ease. Someone using IDC isn't able to easily kill anyone out of it.

The jiggs rising pound stall in melee would be unbeatable if not enforced. Every ruleset has to carry it. It really would be jiggs gets a stock lead ever then jiggs wins. She can reach places no other cast members can reach and can stall there idenfinitely.

1. There are character specific rules. And all of them enforced to the point were they are part of a ruleset. Some are enforced to the point where if they are not on a ruleset then that character(s) would be broken because of there ability to run the clock

2. This is not about arguing about mks legality. It is about making a legal ruleset. Please attempt to follow that.

 

[Sorto]

@ghostbone

Interesting.

It would def be hard to work out. But someone could always check into characters minimal frames of vunerability when planking. And make a lgl based on that.

Iirc mk if he planks perfectsly has one frame of vunerability.

Based on the new dk thread, dk has 7 frames optimally.

Someone told me there is a pika trick to give him like less then 7 frames of vunerability if done right.

Mk is a base with let's says 25 and for each extra frame you add 2 or 3 ledgegrabs or something.

The problems are:
there is a lot of math involved.

Seemingly would create a specific different lgl for each character.

* I like the idea of looking into frame data. Either in the earlier ways described or my way.

But I think we need a more generic and easy to follow system.

No one wants to have look up if a character broke the rules every different match.

 

[Ghostbone]

The jiggs rising pound stall in melee would be unbeatable if not enforced. Every ruleset has to carry it. It really would be jiggs gets a stock lead ever then jiggs wins. She can reach places no other cast members can reach and can stall there idenfinitely.

No it wouldn't, and no she couldn't.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You should also adjust it based on how floaty each character is and the height of their double jumps. Also the distance and disjoint covered by their up Bs.

Again, can you find a way to add that to the rule and still make it easily enforceable?

 

[Tesh]

The rule is really really bad and there is no point in "Adding to it". You blatantly admitted that you are only worried about MK and possible Pit hen you speak of multi jump characters.

As I pointed out in another thread, there are less than 15 characters that even enjoy using the ledge for more than recovery. Its pointless to put an LGL on the rest of them.

 

[Sorto]

No it wouldn't, and no she couldn't.

Do you play melee?

Because if done correctly it actually is infinite. Its been proven. Ask a good jiggs player and they will tell u.

You can go and jump out to the blast zone on fd. And only like peach, samus, other jiggs and maybe a few other characters could hit you. And even then, recovering with them might be nearly impossible.

And if jiggs is knocked far away and survived, she might be in a position that is to high to be reached by anyone. But that is more so based on luck and the opponent.

The first scenario is do able on any larger stage. Fd, dreamland, bf

 

[Ripple]

Do you play melee?

Because if done correctly it actually is infinite. Its been proven. Ask a good jiggs player and they will tell u.

Do you play melee?

Because even if its done frame perfectly, she still loses height and I'm pretty sure this has been brough up before. Its been proven its not an infinite by multiple people.

 

[Sorto]

Do you play melee?

Because even if its done frame perfectly, she still loses height and I'm pretty sure this has been brough up before. Its been proven its not an infinite by multiple people.

I just looked it up. But I couldn't find proof of either. I was under the original assumption of its infiniteness. This is what the ruleset would lead one to believe. But I trust your knowledge of the game mechanics. Though I am curious how long she could stall if done perfectly from the top of fd.

 

[Sorto]

The rule is really really bad and there is no point in "Adding to it". You blatantly admitted that you are only worried about MK and possible Pit hen you speak of multi jump characters.

As I pointed out in another thread, there are less than 15 characters that even enjoy using the ledge for more than recovery. Its pointless to put an LGL on the rest of them.

The argument jebus is saying. That if characters only use the ledge for recovering, chances are they will not surpass the ledge limit. And even if they do, they will prob not go to time because of it. If your bad on the ledge, you can play on the ledge, but you will be knocked off and die because of it most likely. And if you are not being knocked off then ur most likely good on the ledge in which case you may disserve to have a limit.

Play a few matches and take the ledge counts. If your character is not good on the ledge they should not surpass 25. And even then it should not go to time.

The limit does not hurt characters who are bad on the ledge because they wont want to stay on the ledge. There choice of staying on the ledge will most likely end in the opponents favor. The more time they stay on the ledge if the position is disadvantageous the higher the odds of them getting punished hard for it.

 

[Tesh]

The point is that it doesn't deserve to be limited. I could put a limit on Sonic's uptilt and say "it won't matter because sonic has one of the worst uptilts in the game and sonic wouldn't want to use it anyway".

If its okay to limit things that aren't broken, we should ban Ganondorf and the rest of H tier in this ruleset.

 

[Sorto]

The point is that it doesn't deserve to be limited. I could put a limit on Sonic's uptilt and say "it won't matter because sonic has one of the worst uptilts in the game and sonic wouldn't want to use it anyway".

If its okay to limit things that aren't broken, we should ban Ganondorf and the rest of H tier in this ruleset.

Those are not really the same.

Its more like an all or nothing scenario.

Like no chaingrabs can go past 300%. This effects all chaingrabbers. Even thought ic have easier kill setups then DDD. Thought I know that only effects 2 cast members.

Or how about the no stalling clause. No character is allowed to stall. It is implace for everyone, even thought specifically only a few characters can take advantage of it.

Character specific rules make people cringe. If it becomes cast wide it becomes more "fair" seeming. Also, there are a decent amount of characters with really scary and possibly dominating edge games. More then just mk and pit (dk if pit totally even qualifies, tho idk his frame data).

The truth is, it is 2 part that it becomes cast wide.
1. It is a safety net to avoid possible stalling. Because there is not nearly enough planking data to show how good all the characters are at it.

2. It applies to enough of the cast that a case by case would be annoying and make people cringe at the amount of character specific rules. And character specific rules in general make people cringe.


** the truth is, I believe more data is needed on planking for every cast member. MK has a plank that truly borders on stalling, based on frame data. A lot of cast members have powerful stalling potential due to planking (tho there is no data to prove or argue for or against).

*MK Does need a ledge grab limit.

*Other Characters also need ledge grab limits.

*Not every single cast member disserves a ledge grab limit.

*Nobody wants to have to try to remember 10 or more diff LGL amounts to account for all the cast members who have a dangerous plank game.

*But if there is no limit the game will most likely evolve into a get the first stock and sudo stall fest.

And this is the PROBLEM.

Do you have a solution? Because atm the best available solutions involve full cast LGLs, and cast LGLs that try to use a simple system to account for variation in characters stalling potential.

 

[Tesh]

Those are not really the same.

Its more like an all or nothing scenario.

Like no chaingrabs can go past 300%. This effects all chaingrabbers. Even thought ic have easier kill setups then DDD. Thought I know that only effects 2 cast members.

Or how about the no stalling clause. No character is allowed to stall. It is implace for everyone, even thought specifically only a few characters can take advantage of it.

Character specific rules make people cringe. If it becomes cast wide it becomes more "fair" seeming. Also, there are a decent amount of characters with really scary and possibly dominating edge games. More then just mk and pit (dk if pit totally even qualifies, tho idk his frame data).

The truth is, it is 2 part that it becomes cast wide.
1. It is a safety net to avoid possible stalling. Because there is not nearly enough planking data to show how good all the characters are at it.

2. It applies to enough of the cast that a case by case would be annoying and make people cringe at the amount of character specific rules. And character specific rules in general make people cringe.


** the truth is, I believe more data is needed on planking for every cast member. MK has a plank that truly borders on stalling, based on frame data. A lot of cast members have powerful stalling potential due to planking (tho there is no data to prove or argue for or against).

*MK Does need a ledge grab limit.

*Other Characters also need ledge grab limits.

*Not every single cast member disserves a ledge grab limit.

*Nobody wants to have to try to remember 10 or more diff LGL amounts to account for all the cast members who have a dangerous plank game.

*But if there is no limit the game will most likely evolve into a get the first stock and sudo stall fest.

And this is the PROBLEM.

Do you have a solution? Because atm the best available solutions involve full cast LGLs, and cast LGLs that try to use a simple system to account for variation in characters stalling potential.

Like no chaingrabs can go past 300%. This effects all chaingrabbers. Even thought ic have easier kill setups then DDD. Thought I know that only effects 2 cast members.

Or how about the no stalling clause. No character is allowed to stall. It is implace for everyone, even thought specifically only a few characters can take advantage of it.

This isn't really the same either. Chaingrabs going past 300% is practically part of the stalling rule. I'm 99% sure that every infinite/lock in the game combos into something that can kill at 300%. 300% (and/or a stock) is basically the limit to how much damage can be done off of 1 grab/punish/lock. It winds up notable affecting a handful of characters because only that number can actually reach the limit.

For example, Sonic CAN'T plank as well as Pit. No matter how hard he tries or how many times he grabs the ledge, it won't carry the same safety or effect as Pit planking.

A Universal LGL is more similar to this CG/lock rule :"No CG can go past 5 reiterations/loops". Now for the sake of arguement lets say that Character A has an "infinite" that consists of some kind of buffered dthrow-regrab combo. Dthrow does 12 damage and Character A would get 60% off of this "CG limit". Now compare that to Character B's "infinite" which does 4% per throw (like Lucario's hilarious upthrow cg on fox). Character B is limited to only 20% because of an arbitrary limit that was only designed to stop Character A from dominating the entire cast.

You could argue that Character B shouldn't care because his grab game isn't as important to him as Character A's is, but its still not fair to damage his grab game just to limit more powerful "grabbers".

 

[krazyzyko]

Oh, here's simple idea.
Metaknights starts the matches with 2 stocks. (obviously by suiciding ASAP)
And other characters remain with 3 stocks.
vs

If all players use MK then the stocks will be the standard 3.
What do you guys think?

Back in page 13 I made this question and got trolled and didn't get a convincing answer: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312904&page=13

Could anyone please give me a legit response on why aren't we considering this?

_____________________________________________________

I personally think that the rules can't be general to legalize MK, he was the only character banned that means he has some OPness going on. So he (and only he) might need a special rule to keep him legal.

Plus 2 stocks are way simpler to follow than LGL and a new stage list.
_____________________________________________________________

@Sorto- I second Ripple, I'm a veteran melee smasher and Puff loses height between rising pounds.
However, she can stall off stage in Kongo Jungle 64 and recover her multi jumps in the barrel. = Pretty badass.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The point is that it doesn't deserve to be limited. I could put a limit on Sonic's uptilt and say "it won't matter because sonic has one of the worst uptilts in the game and sonic wouldn't want to use it anyway".

If its okay to limit things that aren't broken, we should ban Ganondorf and the rest of H tier in this ruleset.

We do it all the time with stages though. The stages that are banned aren't broken for every character, and yet no character is allowed to use those stages. So we do limit things that aren't broken already

 

[Tesh]

Stages that are banned are generally banned for a universally degenrate tactic. Like permanent walkoff camping, circle camping etc.

Or excessive randomness. These are all universal.

 

[Sorto]

@tesh

but do you have a better solution?

There are too many characters who LGLS can be dangerous and OP.

With Data, there would be an easier way to dechipher who disserves a ledge grab limit.

But since no data or not much data, is available, what would you choose to do to limit over powered planking?

Remember just limiting MKs could result in a event like the will vs richbrown scenario. I know people argue it, but it is still a valid case to use as reference.

I understand that you feel a universal LGL is unfair. But at the moment it seems to be the best option.

 

[WindMajor]

@tesh

but do you have a better solution?

There are too many characters who LGLS can be dangerous and OP.

With Data, there would be an easier way to dechipher who disserves a ledge grab limit.

But since no data or not much data, is available, what would you choose to do to limit over powered planking?

Remember just limiting MKs could result in a event like the will vs richbrown scenario. I know people argue it, but it is still a valid case to use as reference.
I understand that you feel a universal LGL is unfair. But at the moment it seems to be the best option.

The issue is that you want to fix the issue now, but you don't have the evidence to make a decision. This can be seen in the stuff I highlighted in red.

The conflicting issue is that you're afraid to gather new evidence, which can be seen in blue. In essence, you're putting yourself in a stand still, and something's got to give.

You want new evidence because you want to make a decision quickly, but you don't have enough evidence and you're afraid to gather new evidence, because another Will vs. RB can happen, which would be bad.

 

[Steam]

no one needs a LGL except for MK if MK is kept legal. RB found a way to stop will's planking (fsmash) but stopped using it and ran off stage and got killed.

though if a MK legal ruleset wants to not be a joke... it shouldn't have a LGL at all... buuuut then MK will just win everything at will.

 

[Judo777]

no one needs a LGL except for MK if MK is kept legal. RB found a way to stop will's planking (fsmash) but stopped using it and ran off stage and got killed.

though if a MK legal ruleset wants to not be a joke... it shouldn't have a LGL at all... buuuut then MK will just win everything at will.

Alas the catch 22 of MK.

 

[Tesh]

Steam, I think you are missing the point of this thread. Its for people that are taking that are going the other direction at this fork in the road.

This ruleset is supposed to be tailored towards keeping MK legal and it should simply have an LGL of like 20 for MK. After all, as any LGL defender will tell you, "there is no reason anyone would go over that amount of they aren't stalling". This applies MUCH more to MK as his powerful recovery almost bypasses the need for a ledge anyway.

 

[Sorto]

The issue is that you want to fix the issue now, but you don't have the evidence to make a decision. This can be seen in the stuff I highlighted in red.

The conflicting issue is that you're afraid to gather new evidence, which can be seen in blue. In essence, you're putting yourself in a stand still, and something's got to give.

You want new evidence because you want to make a decision quickly, but you don't have enough evidence and you're afraid to gather new evidence, because another Will vs. RB can happen, which would be bad.

I wish there was evidence. I am not afraid to gather it. Its just that I personally don't have the time. And I don't really play brawl anymore. I just made this thread cause I disagreed with the mk ban.

The data would show other characters who could abuse LGL hard and I wanna know who can.

Also, a ruleset is needed relatively soon, prior to the time the urc ban goes into effect. That is a general time constraint.

 

[Sorto]

no one needs a LGL except for MK if MK is kept legal. RB found a way to stop will's planking (fsmash) but stopped using it and ran off stage and got killed.

though if a MK legal ruleset wants to not be a joke... it shouldn't have a LGL at all... buuuut then MK will just win everything at will.

RBs strategy of stopping wills DK was not working well. DKs Up-b out priorites pikmin because of its hitboxes. Add to that the large amounts of armor and invisiblity from the ledge drop and up-b. Also, reacting and mixing up the timings of the ledge drop makes it even harder to beat. Oh yea and fsmash has mediorce power, so after a few hits, if that did happen, it be too sour to kill with. If irc, will vsed rb again in a mm with the same rules and still won. Fsmash and grab were not gonna beat dks planking. Idk if it is actually beatable by Olimar. Which is fine, that is only one matchup. But there are other matchups where it is very powerful. Will vsed Adhd and won a match with the same strategy and almost won the set if irc but messed on a plank.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Planking actually breaks a lot of matchups. Most of the cast against Falco, Fox, Wolf, and Olimar, for example.

 

[Conviction]

It does? (For Fox)

I've always Usmashed ledge happy people because some don't always grab the edge before their head lowers below my range. Even Metaknights.

Or I could always Rar a Nair. Or just grab the ledge forcing them to use a new option. Vs. the ledge against someone isn't a big deal for Fox at least in my experiences expect, MK (of course), GnW, Pit on occasions, Diddy Kong (but I'm pretty sure it's just because BigLou and P-1 are better players than me). Other than that I've gave said character damage for hanging for the edge for too long or forced them back on stage without losing too much momentum.

 

[Tesh]

Planking actually breaks a lot of matchups. Most of the cast against Falco, Fox, Wolf, and Olimar, for example.

I died @ most of the cast.

I swear, the MK ban has turned you into Jebus.

 

[Life]

Planking breaks DK vs. D3.

owait

 

[Tesh]

The dumb thing about is that you don't even have to argue the outrageous claim that planking would break MOST matchups to have a good defense of LGLs. Its just ridiculous to say then when in matchups like Falco vs Snake, they would both be foolish to stall @ the ledge.

about 70% of the cast "planking" loses to the universal AT called "edgehogging"

 

[ElDominio]

Budget Player CaJebus

 

[Tesh]

^ You can do better than that. I would have at least gone with Budget Jebus Cadet or Jebus Player Cadet.

 

[ElDominio]

^ You can do better than that. I would have at least gone with Budget Jebus Cadet or Jebus Player Cadet.

Jebus Playing Cadet?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I will hurt all of you.

Hit me up when Unity removes the LGL for the whole cast.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Budget Player CaJebus

A compliment to BPC or an insult to me?

 

[Life]

Insult to both of you.

@BPC I intend to help that along.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

A compliment to BPC or an insult to me?

...Are you ****ing kidding me?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Actually, Wolf is one of those characters than can beat even MKs planking <_<

 

[krazyzyko]

Fine, I'll ask a 6th time.
2 stocks for MK, why not?

 

[Life]

Fine, I'll ask a 6th time.
2 stocks for MK, why not?

Because then 5 stocks for Dorf and 4 stocks for LTs and 30% handicap for Diddy and Snake and where do you stop? By surgically altering once character's balance through stock count, you set a precedent for altering more, and you end up with this giant web of rules that isn't worth sorting through.

(Side note: Slippery slope is a fallacy, yes, but precedent-setting is not.)

 

[krazyzyko]

Thank you <3

 

[moomoomamoo]

Time: 9 or 10 minutes
Default ledge grab limit for metaknight:35

Stage specific ledge grab limit for metaknight

Rainbow: 15 or 20
Brinstar: 15 or 20
Smashville: 25
Delfino: 30

Just an idea. :x

 

[Reizilla]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311951

I'm the best Pikachu in TX and I **** all the kids in my neighborhood.