The North Carolina Melee Power Rankings! Updated 8/14/14!

[Sushi-Man]

How do you guys deal with fox's nair? I use marth and I struggle to beat that move.

Shut up dj

 

[Dr Peepee]

How do you guys deal with fox's nair? I use marth and I struggle to beat that move.

Shut up dj

CC grab, DD grab, Fair outspaces it, Ftilt does, Fsmash does, Nair over top of it does

for FH you can CC and DD it and Fair it but you could also uair under it in addition to most of the other options.

Sometimes the problem isn't the move but how they use it. Try to position yourself so that Fox can't be super close to you when he does it or if he does then you know exactly how to react based on how you're moving/cutting his other options off.

 

[-ACE-]

I've been having a lot of fun with marth lately...

Nothing like the king of evil, but you know.

 

[~Twitch~]

can't be a warrior with a tiara on your head ace.

 

[DJRome]

CC grab, DD grab, Fair outspaces it, Ftilt does, Fsmash does, Nair over top of it does

for FH you can CC and DD it and Fair it but you could also uair under it in addition to most of the other options.

Sometimes the problem isn't the move but how they use it. Try to position yourself so that Fox can't be super close to you when he does it or if he does then you know exactly how to react based on how you're moving/cutting his other options off.

can you explain how to mixup getting out of marth's cg?

 

[Dr Peepee]

can you explain how to mixup getting out of marth's cg?

Slight DI behind Marth from 4-21% Marth has to guess whether he needs to turnaround grab or grab in place because falling from slight DI looks pretty similar to not DI'ing. Around 42%ish you should DI the Uptilt behind Marth(whichever way he is not facing), unless you can find a way to get Marth to uptilt at 30-33% and then you won't get tippered. If you can trick Marth into turning a certain way and not getting the tipper from 33-44ish then that's really good you'll pop out. After that it can be Uairs Fairs or more uptilts to regrabs so it depends on the Marth.

On non-FD you can edge cancel your falls on platforms to get out as well.

 

[stingers]

can you explain to sanketh on how to beat mewtwo with marth?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I heard Fair and Dtilt worked pretty well.

I suppose sushi is improving so it doesn't matter too much if you beat him with m2 since you've been playing for 5 years or something now lol.

that matchup priyyyyy bad though

 

[lord karn]

that matchup is godawful. mewtwo has no fast decently ranged moves to hit marth in between his attacks. downtilt is good, but easy to cc and will often just hit under marth anyways. Just fair wall and m2 can do very little.

 

[Moophobia]

that matchup is godawful. peach has no fast decently ranged moves to hit marth in between his attacks. downtilt is good, but easy to cc and will often just hit under marth anyways. Just fair wall and peach can do very little.

I know right so terrible.

 

[~Twitch~]

yeah moo the only difference is that mewtwo is actually a good character.

 

[Moophobia]

Yeah you right, underrated imo

 

[stingers]

marth is my worst MU with peach =[

but otr tho sankeths marth beats my mewtwo lol. im just messin

 

[0Room]

Actual discussion
Wow

As far as the Nair goes
I've been learning for real that aerials don't have priority
And priority is simply who outspaces

And literally accepting that fact for truth made me so much happier with this game

 

[Dark Hart]

Clank clank

Disagreement

 

[0Room]

Aerials can't clank
Not with each other

And afaik they can't clank for reals against ground attacks
Always trade
Though I may be wrong on that

I was just talking about how if you do an aerial and they do an aerial
and you get hit
They outspaced you. That is the only reason. Nothing else was involved.
Your fault, you can fix it, go fix it.

It makes me much happier

 

[stingers]

glide attack clanks o.O

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hitting Marth's Fsmash arm is mad funny.

 

[Dark Hart]

They clank with other attacks though

*******

 

[lord karn]

I know right so terrible.

Well, actually peach doesn't lose to marth because of fair walls. Marth uses three things to **** with in that matchup. Dash attack to **** turnip pulls even from far away, grab if she's closer in, and full hop fairs to knock her out of her float. Not to mention Marth's amazing ability to juggle peach and not let her get back down. Yeah, the matchup is not that good, but dashattack does give peach a mixup on ground to punish bad fairs and dash attacks (but it's too risky to really make the matchup even imo).

 

[Lightsyde]

Marth Peach is 55:45 at the worst.

He has a really hard time killing her if she DI's well. Provided she mixes up her airdodging/UpB's etc it's really not that hard to get down and as long as you're DI'ing, most of Marth's ranged moves won't kill a recovering Peach on a medium to big stage (read: not Yoshi's). This means she gets to take sacrifice hits (getting hit weak on purpose to provide a new/different reaction scenario >>> getting hit hard and dying) and has a higher probability of tricking Marth or getting a lot more height from something like a Fair/Uair and getting to fly back. She should be living forever if she is doing things correctly for the sheer reason that Marth does not have the ability (right kind of kills moves + aerial mobility) to deal with her at high percents. For clarification, I mean has no equivalent to Fox/Falcon's Uair (jump speed + strong upward hitbox) or Falcon's Knee (run speed + strong front hitbox) or Falco's Dair (double jump height + strong down diagonal front/down hitbox).

Her wavedash OOS to dash attack is really good at punishing laggy ranged stuff and her dash attack in general ***** Marth's legs once he's left the ground. Nair/Uair also **** for starting and continuing combos against Marth because his game from below is so bad.

Turnips make recovery much more difficult for Marth because he will often be forced into situations between getting hit with a turnip and jumping into an aerial. Also, her ability to mix up floating out and punishing his recovery, throwing turnips and Dsmashing the edge to abuse his bad wall tech.

Random thoughts.

 

[lord karn]

I'm pretty sure the main reason marth's don't **** peaches at high level is because there are a very high amount of iterations the marth has to perform of certain frame traps and eventually he messes up.

You're right, peach lives to a ridiculous percent vs. marth, but that still doesn't mean she has good options. She is really just limited to sitting back and punishing when marth does something stupid or taking little hits when she can get them that don't lead to too much.

A peach trying to get down from high up will easily take at least several hits before getting back down. Full hop fair -> falling uair -> jump uair or something similar covers soooooooooooooooo many options against peach.

Dash attack is good because it prevents marth from being able to benefit much from short hops. However, marth should just not be shorthop fairing/double fairing against peach, at least unless she is in the air already. And a missed dash attack for peach will hit a shield or get hit by a sword pretty easily.

Turnips are very important vs. peach, and should be the main thing she works on getting in the match. However, Marth can punish turnip pulls really really really easily. Since peach is stationary when she pulls turnips it makes it really easy for marth to space a dash attack, which will lead to a really good combo at lower percents. Or if you're closer and thus don't have time to dash attack you can space fair or grab, both of which lead to a lot of %. The main point is that marth can punish her from really far away when she tries to pull a turnip so she has to get him pretty much off stage or knock him to the ground (which happens much less vs. marth as compared to cf/spacies because he is floaty) to get one.

So basically, peach has to rely on marth making mistakes, which isn't too bad because she lives for so long it is pretty likely even for a good player to make a mistake when they have to make that many iterations of frametraps/combos/spacing. I think this is shown pretty well by most of the m2k vs. armada sets. He always seems to be winning with marth and then messes up a bit and gets ***** and then gets demoralized, then switches to fox because it's easier.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Marth Peach is 55:45 at the worst.

He has a really hard time killing her if she DI's well. Provided she mixes up her airdodging/UpB's etc it's really not that hard to get down and as long as you're DI'ing, most of Marth's ranged moves won't kill a recovering Peach on a medium to big stage (read: not Yoshi's). This means she gets to take sacrifice hits (getting hit weak on purpose to provide a new/different reaction scenario >>> getting hit hard and dying) and has a higher probability of tricking Marth or getting a lot more height from something like a Fair/Uair and getting to fly back. She should be living forever if she is doing things correctly for the sheer reason that Marth does not have the ability (right kind of kills moves + aerial mobility) to deal with her at high percents. For clarification, I mean has no equivalent to Fox/Falcon's Uair (jump speed + strong upward hitbox) or Falcon's Knee (run speed + strong front hitbox) or Falco's Dair (double jump height + strong down diagonal front/down hitbox).

Her wavedash OOS to dash attack is really good at punishing laggy ranged stuff and her dash attack in general ***** Marth's legs once he's left the ground. Nair/Uair also **** for starting and continuing combos against Marth because his game from below is so bad.

Turnips make recovery much more difficult for Marth because he will often be forced into situations between getting hit with a turnip and jumping into an aerial. Also, her ability to mix up floating out and punishing his recovery, throwing turnips and Dsmashing the edge to abuse his bad wall tech.

Random thoughts.

In this metagame it's probably 55/45(maybe 50/50 due to so much Marth stagnation), but I think it should be 60/40 if the players fleshed out their characters more, especially on Marth's end obviously.

Well Marth can combo into his kills, and he also doesn't really need to kill her right away as long as he doesn't get frustrated and continue outranging her. She'll die from tippered Fair/Uair eventually(Uair actually comes relatively early too on non-DL stages....DL would be banned anyway though so yeah it kills early lol).

What you say about the weak hit thing is true, but it still resets things and Marth still is at a great advantage to Peach, so he should still be getting the hard juggles more often than not anyway. Things like empty hopping make Peach have to go lower in her up-B for example and that's how you compensate for hitting her higher, especially at low-mid percents.

Marth's kills come from reads to side b uptilt or for read to fsmash/dsmash or just uptilt if not from juggles or edgeguards but those are potent killers....you just can't set them up. Sure it's not a gimme but Marths should be expected to be competent manipulators and readers so I don't see why every kill should take 150%+ or something. Peach can die around 50% if you tipper her when she's retreating(and against floaties nailing them on the retreat destroys their DI). Gimps are perfectly possible too due to the nature of Marth's throw game by the edge and Peach's linear up-B. They're not too common these days but that doesn't mean they should be ignored because it can be match/matchup changing.

Marth doesn't always have to leave the ground. Dtilt and Ftilt and side B even are difficult moves for Peach to get around, and both don't have much lag relatively speaking(especially Dtilt with IASA frames). Marth is more about threatening than actually just hopping around a lot so it's not like Peach should be getting under Marth all of the time. The combo starters are brutal though and that can't be ignored but most punishes in this game are big these days. Marth is faster than Peach and outranges her so he has that much in these situations unlike the reverse.

Yeah they both edgeguard each other well. Marth has that sick tech jump Bair to edge grab that not many people exploit though, and that's something Peach could only dream of having because it would help so much lol.

I'm pretty sure the main reason marth's don't **** peaches at high level is because there are a very high amount of iterations the marth has to perform of certain frame traps and eventually he messes up.

You're right, peach lives to a ridiculous percent vs. marth, but that still doesn't mean she has good options. She is really just limited to sitting back and punishing when marth does something stupid or taking little hits when she can get them that don't lead to too much.

A peach trying to get down from high up will easily take at least several hits before getting back down. Full hop fair -> falling uair -> jump uair or something similar covers soooooooooooooooo many options against peach.

Dash attack is good because it prevents marth from being able to benefit much from short hops. However, marth should just not be shorthop fairing/double fairing against peach, at least unless she is in the air already. And a missed dash attack for peach will hit a shield or get hit by a sword pretty easily.

Turnips are very important vs. peach, and should be the main thing she works on getting in the match. However, Marth can punish turnip pulls really really really easily. Since peach is stationary when she pulls turnips it makes it really easy for marth to space a dash attack, which will lead to a really good combo at lower percents. Or if you're closer and thus don't have time to dash attack you can space fair or grab, both of which lead to a lot of %. The main point is that marth can punish her from really far away when she tries to pull a turnip so she has to get him pretty much off stage or knock him to the ground (which happens much less vs. marth as compared to cf/spacies because he is floaty) to get one.

So basically, peach has to rely on marth making mistakes, which isn't too bad because she lives for so long it is pretty likely even for a good player to make a mistake when they have to make that many iterations of frametraps/combos/spacing. I think this is shown pretty well by most of the m2k vs. armada sets. He always seems to be winning with marth and then messes up a bit and gets ***** and then gets demoralized, then switches to fox because it's easier.

Well yeah this metagame yeah. <.<

Armada punishes well stfu!!!!!

I like what you said after that except for your conclusion lol. Relying on making mistakes is so weird to me but yeah maybe? Peach can get in on Marth and she has an approach besides dash attack which is turnip so she's not helpless. Hitting Marth away then pulling a turnip or conditioning him to stay away so she has time to pull it are big ways she can get it and push her advantage and that's definitely a big part of the matchup lol.

Lol M2K playing Marth.

Also that thing I said about gimping/killing Peach in the response to Josh's post goes here too.

 

[Lightsyde]

I'm pretty sure the main reason marth's don't **** peaches at high level is because there are a very high amount of iterations the marth has to perform of certain frame traps and eventually he messes up.

Yeah, that's a big thing that I think we're both getting at. Marth's match ups are like that against all the high tiers; enough overall range/movement to cover tons of options and do good mixups with grabs etc, but really easy to slip up and make a mistake and get combo'd hard.

You're right, peach lives to a ridiculous percent vs. marth, but that still doesn't mean she has good options. She is really just limited to sitting back and punishing when marth does something stupid or taking little hits when she can get them that don't lead to too much.

A peach trying to get down from high up will easily take at least several hits before getting back down. Full hop fair -> falling uair -> jump uair or something similar covers soooooooooooooooo many options against peach.

I kinda disagree about this part in that I think she does have good options that a lot people just don't exploit properly; mainly stuff with airdodges and getting hit by big hitboxes that will send you towards the stage rather than away or at least give you a lot of height. She can do a lot of fast fall/platform tricks (similar to Falcon's but slower) that can result in edge cancels or Marth having to punish in a way he wasn't prepared for. That combo you mentioned is solid though, I agree.

Dash attack is good because it prevents marth from being able to benefit much from short hops. However, marth should just not be shorthop fairing/double fairing against peach, at least unless she is in the air already. And a missed dash attack for peach will hit a shield or get hit by a sword pretty easily.

Yeah, they both definitely have a list of stuff that is just kinda dumb from neutral positions. haha As long as Marth is spacing well though I feel like SH late Fair -> whatever is pretty safe.

Turnips are very important vs. Marth, and should be the main thing she works on getting in the match. However, Marth can punish turnip pulls really really really easily. Since peach is stationary when she pulls turnips it makes it really easy for marth to space a dash attack, which will lead to a really good combo at lower percents. Or if you're closer and thus don't have time to dash attack you can space fair or grab, both of which lead to a lot of %. The main point is that marth can punish her from really far away when she tries to pull a turnip so she has to get him pretty much off stage or knock him to the ground (which happens much less vs. marth as compared to cf/spacies because he is floaty) to get one.

Yeah, the main time to pull turnips is after a decent hit that Marth DI'd too well to follow safely (or obviously when he's too far away to kill you). And although it sounds silly, getting hit by a dash attack or two early might not be that bad because a) you can DI dash attack pretty hard or a least well enough to not get *****, but more importantly b) you condition them into thinking it works. Peach's ability to float on reaction to avoid getting dash attacked leads to solid punishes.

So basically, peach has to rely on marth making mistakes, which isn't too bad because she lives for so long it is pretty likely even for a good player to make a mistake when they have to make that many iterations of frametraps/combos/spacing. I think this is shown pretty well by most of the m2k vs. armada sets. He always seems to be winning with marth and then messes up a bit and gets ***** and then gets demoralized, then switches to fox because it's easier.

For obvious reasons that's a good set to watch, except for maybe that Armada tends to adapt well when losing and force those mistakes. I'm still not really inclined to agree that Peach HAS to rely on Marth messing up because so much of this game survival tactics and capitalizing off combo gaps.

Responses in bold. Interesting stuff.

EDIT: Kevin yeah! I'm back from lunch break and have stuff to do but I'll try to respond in a bit. Good points though.

 

[stingers]

what makes bair to edge grab so good? sanketh does it a lot and I dont get why you shouldnt just...wd on the ledge

 

[Dr Peepee]

Because he hits you? That's what happens when I try to hit Marth with most moves...he just Bairs and makes it to the edge.

Guess it depends on what you're using to make him tech.

 

[stingers]

he doesnt hit with it, he just does it to grab the ledge

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well if you do it fast enough you can hit with it.

TRUST ME TWITCH KEEPS HITTING ME WITH IT BLAH

 

[stingers]

wait huh?
idt were talkin about the same thing nvm
im saying like...hes on stage, running towards the ledge to grab it and ledgehog.
instead of just turning around and wding on it like most people he'll jump and bair to reverse his direction and fall down to grab the ledge (when the opponent is nowhere near the bair)

i was wondering if it was like faster or something

 

[Dr Peepee]

OHHHHH

I'm talking about tech jump Bair. You know when you up-B?

And the running Bair thing is good if you have to cover a good bit of distance to get to the edge. WD'ing takes longer if you have to do more than one I think? There's definitely good reason for it because you have to DD turnaround WD if you're at other distances and it's nice to consolidate that into Bair sometimes(also faster in some situations). It really depends on spacing.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Samus vs Marth is even in Melee.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Man WHAT lol

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Samus is one of the only people that can efficiently edgeguard marths (With u-tilt edge, and fall off nair. Nair is so good), and Samus has like...the best tool and sending people off-stage (D-smash). Bombs prevent a LOT of juggling. We don't really get combod and we can survive spikes due to DJ Rising grapple. Also, our attacks have almost the same spacing lol (U-tilt and D-tilt are about the same as Marth's fair and d-tilt). We can also combo relatively well and punish landings with CC D-smash, which sends them back off-stage (lol). CC is SUPER important in this MU.

@PP should I enter Apex Melee?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Samus is one of the only people that can efficiently edgeguard marths (With u-tilt edge, and fall off nair. Nair is so good), and Samus has like...the best tool and sending people off-stage (D-smash). Bombs prevent a LOT of juggling. We don't really get combod and we can survive spikes due to DJ Rising grapple. Also, our attacks have almost the same spacing lol (U-tilt and D-tilt are about the same as Marth's fair and d-tilt). We can also combo relatively well and punish landings with CC D-smash, which sends them back off-stage (lol). CC is SUPER important in this MU.

@PP should I enter Apex Melee?

Well that's definitely good Samus stuff, but what do you do about DD camping and when you don't have the stage? What do you do when you get stuck in your shield? Do you believe that your platform chase game can be as good as Marth's? What about juggles on FD?

Depends on % when you're spiked I don't think that can save you on stages like BF but sometimes it can work obviously.

I dunno much about the matchup because I dunno much about Samus but I'd be incredibly surprised if it's even despite that just due to Marth's range and advantageous position he still holds while above people/has them offstage.


Uhhh I think it's always good to enter if you're trying to improve or support a tournament but you play Brawl so it could hurt your game sooo I'm not so inclined to suggest that to you, despite your Melee background.

 

[Moophobia]

To all this peach marth discussion...
yeah try it and tell me how even it is.
huehuehue falco players

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey now I never suggested that S. =p

 

[Moophobia]

Yo marth is gay lol.
But so are spacies
and everything in this game
THAT'S WHY IT'S SO GREAT EVERYONE IS GAY.
Like a huge rainbow

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

DD camping I just shoot missiles....Marth has to approach.

Stuck in shield...stay in shield, Up-b if Marth comes to close...or get grabbed. Marth's grabs suck in this MU.

Marth can't really do anything to samus off-stage. She has a very safe recovery and a plethora of options to actually get back on stage, including a ledgehop uair glitch that allows us to do anything, or LH fair, or if he is trying to space those, LH Super missile.

 

[Dr Peepee]

DD camping I just shoot missiles....Marth has to approach.

Stuck in shield...stay in shield, Up-b if Marth comes to close...or get grabbed. Marth's grabs suck in this MU.

Marth can't really do anything to samus off-stage. She has a very safe recovery and a plethora of options to actually get back on stage, including a ledgehop uair glitch that allows us to do anything, or LH fair, or if he is trying to space those, LH Super missile.

DD camping while closer?

What if Marth spaces moves but doesn't grab? This is assuming it's not mindless spam so it'd be harder to just WD OOS to avoid always.

Hm I feel like you can still outrange Samus especially offstage so that seems weird you can't just....hit her until she dies but I'll test it with you I suppose.

Once she's on the edge yeah I agree she can make it back pretty well but I feel like the missile could be jabbed and then Marth would still have stage control and advantage.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

WD > F-TILT/D-TILT THE **** OUT OF HIM IF HE IS TRYING TO SPACE DDs.

If Marth is spacing on my shield...his moves aren't the best for shield pressure, so you could definitely WD backwards and missile or something. Also, Spot dodge D-smash with samus is godlike.

If you jab the missile it stops your jab and I can probably f-tilt before Marth can do anything.