Q&A The official "Ask Your Questions" thread

[Rubyiris]

Here's a question; Why does DK suck?

A better question; Why don't I see his tilts used more often. The few off-beat times I decide to use DK for lulz, I find his tilts to be great.

 

[Strong Badam]

DK sucks because he lacks the attack speed, range, and priority that gives better characters more options. DK is heavily reliant on grabs (though he can do stuff outside of grabs, he's limited in that fashion), while most Top/High Tier characters have very good grab games coupled with more options to get them, and usually a very good game outside of grabs. He's also a large target, has the second highest weight in the game (and gets comboed very badly horizontally because of this), and has minimal vertical recovery. Usually this can be circumvented through good DI, however 1. DI can only help so much and 2. characters with spikes/meteors (which most of the popular characters have; Fox has shinespike, Marth/Falco dair spikes, Falcon dair meteor) really own him in the edge-guarding category even if he ledgetechs. His shield also really really sucks. And wow, I spent way too much time answering that.

DK's uptilt is made obsolete by his cargo-upthrow or upair, mainly due to its end lag. It's not useless, but there are almost ALWAYS better options, due to, like I said, its end lag.
F-tilt is useful in spacing-heavy match-ups such as Marth, Jigglypuff, etc., as usually these characters will try to come in at you to punish you as you land from an aerial (usually bair or nair) but you can just swat at them with f-tilt. I've also had some decent success punishing approaches with it, but it's somewhat limited in its use. Usually back-air or DD-Grab is more effective, depending on the match-up/approach.
D-tilt is very useful for edge-guarding, kinda like Marth's, except not broken. I've killed darkrain at 20% just from getting him off the stage and then dtilting him like a mad man

Spoiler

and then he came back next stock and combo'd me until I die like he usually does

. Really good against Falcon/Marth/Ganon when you're edge-guarding, and if you read that Fox/Falco are going to Illusion you can do that too and then use drop-down up-b for the kill. Not sure about other match-ups where this would be useful, since most other characters have a pretty good balance of vertical and horizontal recovery, but yeah. (Samus maybe? Luigi? Doc? Peach? I'll do some experimenting at the next smashfest if someone wants me to)

That's about it as far as tilts, IMO.

 

[otg]

I think Dtilt is a pretty solid move, and probably the best of his tilt game. You can CC it, its a relatively fast/safe move, and it has good range so its not like you're going to get uber punished for it anyway. Seems like a solid spacing move.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

lol strongbad acting like hes hella good or somethin

 

[otg]

not to talk **** or anything, but its not like Mexican was super duper ****ing amazing at ALL. one of the best DKs? yes, but super duper amazing and hella good? no.

 

[Strong Badam]

lol strongbad acting like hes hella good or somethin

you know, I'd say something really mean and witty here if I didn't love you KFC <3
but stfu ok if I traveled more I'd probably be pretty good

OTG: the skill gap between me and MEXICAN is quite sizeable (not that that's saying anything, really, but yeah). he beat silentspectre in a money match. but the main thing about MEXICAN is that not only was he pretty much the best DK around, he's also just about the most knowledgeable DK as far as tricks and info goes. you don't have to be super good to be knowledgeable and give advice, bro.
and about the d-tilt thing: ftilt is a more solid spacing tool, imo, since you can angle it upwards if you're expecting them to jump in with an aerial or angle it downwards and it's basically a dtilt. The CC part is legit, though. CC grab might be more useful, but you might get pushed too far back and Dtilt would be a better option at that point.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

@ otg : mexican is as amazing and hella good as the character dk permits, lol. also lighten up

@ strongbad. i was jk man lol. ur very knowledgable with your character and i agree with everything you say about dk. i was just making fun of you because... well.. idk, im a jerk with no life =]

 

[otg]

I'm not liked pissed or anything, just putting out some real talk.

Strongbad, my only problem with ftilt is it isnt' that fast and it leaves him vulnerable for awhile.

 

[Strong Badam]

SDM's frame data lolz
F-Tilt
Total: 33
Hit: 8-11

D-Tilt
Total: 22
Hit: 6-9

otg is true
ftilt let's you turn around, though, the wind-down on it is pretty unappealing. ftilt has a lot more range, and a good use for it is to swat enemies after you land from a bair. then again, I've done bair -> standing up-B (strong hit) and it somehow combo'd lmao.
i'm going to have to start using D-tilt more. or I could just bair. DK's d-tilt is seriously almost exactly like Marth's, except it comes out 1 frame faster and stays out 1 frame longer (so they end on the same frame), but it takes 3 more frames for him to do anything afterward. DK top tier??

kfc: <333

 

[ArcNatural]

otg is true
ftilt let's you turn around, though, the wind-down on it is pretty unappealing. ftilt has a lot more range, and a good use for it is to swat enemies after you land from a bair. then again, I've done bair -> standing up-B (strong hit) and it somehow combo'd lmao.
i'm going to have to start using D-tilt more. or I could just bair. DK's d-tilt is seriously almost exactly like Marth's, except it comes out 1 frame faster and stays out 1 frame longer (so they end on the same frame), but it takes 3 more frames for him to do anything afterward. DK top tier??

kfc: <333

I don't think it's knockback is the same. Which makes it kinda sucky for edgeguarding. I'll say that near edges DK's ground pound is the best tech chase utility EVER.

 

[BigD!!!]

me and jiano are maining dk now

sup kfc

 

[Strong Badam]

jiano big d and i are now the mw DK triumvirate

ArcNatural: DK's Dtilt is still really useful for edgeguarding, though. Its main purpose is to gain a frame advantage to grab the ledge and drop-down up-b (against spacies) or to force opponents to take a ridiculous amount of damage and eventually die or recover high and eat a forward smash to die. It's not QUITE as good as Marth's d-tilt, but it's comparable.

Hand Slap as a tech-chasing utility is a bit iffy. The end lag on it is a bit much to follow it up with much, but it could work. I might try it out.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

sup bigD my *****!!

u should come down to cali for pats house

 

[choknater]

mexican is gone? what why?

bigd beat me in teams at genesis :D

 

[Strong Badam]

I assume that MEXICAN intended to quit smash in general after Genesis.

 

[BigD!!!]

he was barely playing before genesis as it was

sup choknater, and holy **** way to join in 2002

 

[NJzFinest]

DK

Donkey Kong (hey)

DK

Donkey Kong is here

 

[choknater]

lol he has a coconut gun


...

if he shoot ya AAAANGH its gonna hurt

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

sup NJ'zfinest, =D

ur hella sexy u know that? i want ur bod

 

[pkmvodka]

mexican is gone? I guess I win the best dk title by default.

 

[Strong Badam]

with me around you're gonna have to work for it....

(lol)

 

[NJzFinest]

sup NJ'zfinest, =D

ur hella sexy u know that? i want ur bod

Thanks dud

I've been hitting the gym lately, glad people are starting to notice <3

 

[Likeness101]

Just wondering, what are DK's matchup ratios against the top and high tiers?

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

falco = impossible

shiek = impossible

marth = marth has a decent advantage over dk

fox= (fox has small advantage if doesnt spam, impossible if he runs away and spams)

peach = impossible if played like pink shinobi (run away and camp till timer runs out)

jigglypuff = idk

 

[Strong Badam]

falco - 75:25 or 70:30 depending on playstyle
fox - 60:40 if they aren't gay, 65:35 or 70:30 if they are
sheik - 65:35
marth - 60:40
peach and falcon - 65:35
puff - 60:40
ics - 55:45
IMO

 

[NJzFinest]

Idk, I think DK does fine on ICs. I'm much to lazy to quote Mexican or to explain my own reasoning.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah, that's why I put them at almost even >_>

 

[BigD!!!]

falco: 80/20

everyone else: 60/40

i guess sheik is a little bit worse than others but idk its not too bad, i have about equal trouble vs every character on the top half of the tier list, jiano agrees

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah, that's basically true, but i feel that falcon, shiek, and fox are definitely more difficult to fight against than the others

 

[BigD!!!]

they all have things they can abuse vs dk, if i had to pick i would probably agree that sheik and fox are harder than the rest, and there are some that are probably slightly easier than others, but nobody would be outside the range of 65-50

falcon i dont really see as worse than most of the others, his lack of disjointed hitboxes make bair hit him really often, hes tall enough to up b, and you can uair combo him pretty good, not to mention edgeguarding

i think you have have enough on him to put him in the same boat as all the other characters slightly beating dk

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't really think that Falcon's speed, maneuverability, and range (nair mainly) allows DK to get enough opportunities to make those points truly make a huge difference. Falcon's combos/tech-chasing (yes.... DK is that bad ;_ are pretty brutal and his stomp kinda ***** DK's recovery even if he spaces very well (I usually do, but yeah). If you play against a falcon who knows the match-up/DK in general (darkrain comes to mind) and what to look out for against him, you can't really take advantage of the "surprise!" factor of bad characters XD. I do think that it's 65-35, but that might just be me.

Sheik is really annoying to fight. D: I can do really well against pretty good Sheiks (Phatgamer is about the only example I can think of atm) who don't grab all too often, and then get ***** by noobs who grab a lot. Sheik's tech-chasing is really stupid against DK and has a huge margin of error. <_< IMO, if the Sheik knows what to do, it should really be 70-30. In practice, it varies too much based on playstyle to give an accurate match-up ratio.

 

[BigD!!!]

nair becomes a lot easier to deal with once you get used to it and get more confidence in your own bair

the real problems arise if you try to do anything else but bair without landing one of those first

falcon doesnt really combo dk as well as he combos most other characters, i've played the matchup from falcon's side a lot vs several very good dk's and its mostly just bothering dk until you land a knee

i dont think anybody really ***** dk's recovery with anything, space animals ledgehopping aerials is the only thing i ever have trouble getting around

falcons speed just doesnt scare me any more than marths sword, samus's moves in general, doc's pills, luigi's nair, etc.

 

[NJzFinest]

Yeah, that's why I put them at almost even >_>

Slight advantage ICs =/= strong advantage DK

 

[BigD!!!]

are you saying dk has a strong advantage

cause i disagree with that one for sure

 

[NJzFinest]

Yes, I am.

 

[Strong Badam]

I do not think that DK has an advantage over anyone who is above him in the tier list. Doc is like the only one I would think is a possibility for that.
Besides, IC's are really gay, and DK isn't good enough to gay them back outside of Japes camping.

 

[BigD!!!]

i just played trail in the matchup 2 days ago

granted, i dont have a ton of experience in the dk/ic matchup specifically, but i understand the mechanics of fighting against the ice climbers in general. ice climber matchup opinions are pretty varied due to the rarity of actual quality ice climber players. i can assure you, though, that dk just does not have the tools to deal with the combination of ice blocks, blizzard, an uair with great priority that combos, really good grab combos, and great horizontal movement

youre left with the option of standing still and tricking them into running into your bairs, and running away and charging giant punch on platforms

desynched ice blocks make you get pretty high off the ground, which leaves you pretty vulnerable as dk

down b is a party trick that is not very reliable

cargo uthrow uair, which is a luxury that really helps you get ko's in most matchups, is not an option until you kill off nana

 

[Strong Badam]

down B is actually useful in the match-up, but you can't just throw it out. it's pretty much the only match-up where it isn't basically a death sentence to use.


but like you said the match-up comes down to spacing bairs (difficult with the extra hitlag on shields... >_>) and charging giant punches. i don't see how dk could have the advantage.
i know the match-up pretty well, since there's a pretty good Ice Climber's in my area... but there are really only like 2 or 3 really good IC's in the entirety of the US <_<

 

[C 3]

Another minor but effective point is making good use of the tilts/buffer rolls. Especially when IC's are at higher %s, F/Dtilt are good ways to create some space between them and maybe kill one of them. Using tilts to knock one of them off and cause some confusion is crucial

 

[BigD!!!]

down b is ok, but it really doesnt seem worth the risk. all i could really manage was to pop nana in the air occasionally, but popo would shield himself and prevent me from even following up on nana

a tilt seems worthless in comparison to a bair against icies

i only use tilts really for the added comfort of being able to cc and so i can face forward in order to mix them up with grabs; which are both very good in general but neither has much bearing on the ic matchup

i cant say for sure really, the only other times i know of that a ice climber player at or above the caliber of trail has played against a dk, its been trail and chu vs bum, both of which i know bum beat

but thats a really small sample pool, and i just cant see the evidence anywhere within the game. and bums tournament results dont really support common opinion of dk matchups as it is