The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Tien2500]

Only if it doesn't have pikmin...............

Zelda has Usmash, which is un-diable for most characters, true combos from Dtilt, a reflector to avoid camping, and aerials that kill at 80 and don't have a million years of alg. Also, better recovery.

Usmash is good no doubt and Dtilt is useful. I think both Uairs are similar in terms of usefullness. They shouldn't be hitting too often and Ivy's pushes him away so its usually fairly safe if used intelligently. Zelda's reflector really doesn't help her very much in preventing camping

I don't think Zelda's recovery is better. Ivy can at least use razor leaf to try and prevent would be edgeguarders, and can B reverse so he can use his bair to bat opponents away.

 

[Code Lyon]

Toon Link.

Haha, good one.

 

[Kewkky]

Link can upB his bombs for another free upB.

Oh wait, that's Melee~

Come on, at least give him Lucas has a better recovery than Link... Until Link dodges his own sideB and the boomerang pushes Lucas farther away. Then Link is better cuz he is still on the stage.


I online today, and see Chuee is still being an attention *****. :|

 

[Code Lyon]

Forreal though can we have a legit discussion that doesn't include stupidity.

 

[smashmachine]

New discussion: Who's better offstage Link or Lucas

falcon

 

[Chuee]

I could care less about attention.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Usmash is good no doubt and Dtilt is useful. I think both Uairs are similar in terms of usefullness. They shouldn't be hitting too often and Ivy's pushes him away so its usually fairly safe if used intelligently. Zelda's reflector really doesn't help her very much in preventing camping

I don't think Zelda's recovery is better. Ivy can at least use razor leaf to try and prevent would be edgeguarders, and can B reverse so he can use his bair to bat opponents away.

Real discussion!

The ting is, Zelda has better range on her recovery. She can UPb away if they get near. Ivy can just pray. If he is too low, razor leaf is useless for helping, and he is unable to really mix up is recovery. At least zelda can mix up her direction (both are dead if under the lip though)

Yes, The uairs are about the same, but Fair/Bair? Zelda easily wins on the Fair. The Bairs are really different, but it's still only a 4-5 % spacing move.

Zelda's reflector is better than nothing, and in a spam war, it wins against razor leaf. Ivys is better at hosing approaches though.

Also, brawl is a slow game, and stocks tend to last forever. Fatigue really breaks it IMO.

 

[Code Lyon]

^You sure like being the village idiot in this thread though.

EDIT: you should know who this is aimed that

 

[smashmachine]

just wondering...who's like the best troller on these boards...

 

[Magik0722]

I've seen Reflex use Ivy in older videos but I can't find any of him recently. There aren't that many good PTs anyway so finding one who uses Ivy is hard. He's clearly worse than the other two in the majority of matchups.

I use ivy alot in every matchup except MK

 

[Tarmogoyf]

^You sure like being the village idiot in this thread though.

I love being the village idiot!

 

[Code Lyon]

just wondering...who's like the best troller on these boards...

This will not end well.

I'm leaving until things cool down lol.

 

[Chuee]

Hi Im an idiot.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hi Im an idiot.

At least you admit it.

 

[Code Lyon]

Last thing then I'm gone....

I knew they had computers in the "Fun House!"

Chuee you prove it.

EDIT: Should we tak ANYTHING you say seriously?

 

[Chuee]

lolwow.
I hope you guys didn't take that seriously.

 

[da K.I.D.]

why not chuee its the only truthful thing youve said all day

 

[Nidtendofreak]

lolwow.
I hope you guys didn't take that seriously.

I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised by you being serious for a change when you said that.

Too much to ask for?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

just wondering...who's like the best troller on these boards...

IDK since YesNoMaybeSo redeemed himself...

 

[Albert.]

why can't weeee be friends, why can't weeee be friends?!?

lmao at lucas back room mattering though LOL

 

[Browny]

I could care less about attention.

Hi Im an idiot.

lolwow.
I hope you guys didn't take that seriously.

hurrr durrr

lol, KID 2g

 

[Shaya]

Truth be told, I dont think Lucas is 65:35 against MK either.
Its probably worse.

I think this purely on a trait/ability criteria in comparison to the things MK has shown to be weak by.

Literally:
Out ranging an MK disjoint
Having move(s) which out range Meta Knight
High Priority fastish move (cool down/start up)
Strong mobility

I dont think Lucas has any of those things.
Take at Wario.
His ftilt is slow start up, but outranges MKs disjoints, its SILLY, but it actually is HELPFUL in the match up for punishing bad spacing (and remember, if a character actually does not have the means of punishing MKs bad spacing, I wouldnt call the MU winnable). Warios uair outranges the disjoint on MKs dair (its still hard to beat it though).. Not saying that these automaticly make Wario WIN/GO EVEN but HAVING THEM HELPS. I do NOT think Lucas has anything like this. His utilt and upsmash sure... Maybe his fair?

Out ranging MK? Well.. Wario doesnt do that... and there arent many characters who do... Theres like Snake (2nd hit ftilt), Falco (fsmash), Diddy (fair), Marth, Dedede (ftilt), Olimar (grabs), Lucario, Link... Poor Lucas

Wario isnt a prime example, but he has things. His Aerial Mobility + Jumping ability + some of his aerials combined result in GREAT FASTS priority. His fsmash has super armor and fast start up, SUPER ARMOR = win as transcended priority naturally loses to it (if you havent noticed, Super Armor still clashes with normal moves). Falco and Diddy are the strong points here; Lasers and Bananas.

Strong mobility? Warios got this in terms of the air. Lucas isnt too bad in this IIRC as well. How does mobility help? well in most cases these days, mobility helps in running away, or being able to cover the distance of MKs whiffs. I dont think Lucas is able to use his mobility to punish whiffs too often, MKs size + low cooldown in general + taking into consideration how hard Wario struggles getting in through the air whilst Lucas has weaker ability in this regard (and I dont think his ground mobility covers it).

Theres other things that MK has ... issues in.. But all I see Lucas has in the match up is reasonable kill power and okay-ish start up on some of his moves. I cant think of Lucas being 60:40, let alone 65:35 when you have to include that MKs dash grab outranges and outspeeds Lucas aerial cooldown/lag and whiffs on his moves, and that Lucas getting grabbed = serious amounts of pain.

 

[Chuee]

why not chuee its the only truthful thing youve said all day

I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised by you being serious for a change when you said that.

Too much to ask for?

I do what a mans gotta do to get clueless ignorant dumb****'s to shut up.

EDIT: Shaya, I actually heard that Lucas' Fair outranges MK's but Im not sure if its right or not.
Did you really tell me that MK is going to punish my aireals with a dash grab.
*dies*
Also, range and GR CG are all that MK has in this MU. Of course Lucas doesn't have anything against MK except maybe some damage with PKT offstage, but theres characters that get outranged and gimped, yet go 60-40 with mk. I honestly don't see how you can a MU so bad because of range and a GR CG.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

ICs blizzard also outranges MK.

Just sayin

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I do what a mans gotta do to get clueless ignorant dumb****'s to shut up.

You're thinking of yourself as a multiple organism now? Because you're the only one who fits the whole "clueless ignorant dumb" part.

There is no logic to Lucas doing well against MK.

Every point you have brought up has been countered multiple ways.

The only other Lucas to talk about this flat out said you're wrong.

Currently, your MU topic says otherwise. Say what you want about it being "randomly changed", but that's what it says. If it was truly "randomly changed" your board would have complained about it to the TC and either made him change it or start a new MU topic.

And then you go away in a hissy fit, claiming you aren't but you actually are, come back to poke at a guy's spelling and grammar, and now you're not even trying to argue with facts but pointless flaming.

You lost. Lucas gets wrecked by MK. End of freaking topic.

 

[Anth0ny]

G tier? More like Z tier AMIRITE?!?

 

[Tien2500]

Real discussion!

The ting is, Zelda has better range on her recovery. She can UPb away if they get near. Ivy can just pray. If he is too low, razor leaf is useless for helping, and he is unable to really mix up is recovery. At least zelda can mix up her direction (both are dead if under the lip though)

Yes, The uairs are about the same, but Fair/Bair? Zelda easily wins on the Fair. The Bairs are really different, but it's still only a 4-5 % spacing move.

Zelda's reflector is better than nothing, and in a spam war, it wins against razor leaf. Ivys is better at hosing approaches though.

Also, brawl is a slow game, and stocks tend to last forever. Fatigue really breaks it IMO.

Zelda has better range of course. As for Up Bing if people get near that depends on the speed of the character. Some characters can get to her before the move gets off which is a problem. Ivy can also sometimes snap to the edge with Up B before they get a chance to do anything. Obviously situational. If Ivy is under the stage he's completely screwed. Zelda is only pretty screwed. Both recoveries such but I'd say Ivy's is better. Also Ivy can actually gimp and harass offstage. Not incredibly well but he has some options.

Zelda's reflector is better than nothing but not by much. Easily baited and all with too much lag at the end. I honestly don't know which is better in a spam war. Neither character should be engaged in one anyway.

Zelda's Fair is probably better. Bair's when compared directly may be about equally useful but Ivy's gives him a much needed spacing move which Zelda lacks.

Bringing fatigue into this complicates things far too much.

I use ivy alot in every matchup except MK

Have any recent vids?

 

[zeldspazz]

Ooh a Zelda discussion. *sits back and watches*

 

[smashmachine]

I do what a mans gotta do to get clueless ignorant dumb****'s to shut up.
EDIT: Shaya, I actually heard that Lucas' Fair outranges MK's but Im not sure if its right or not.
Did you really tell me that MK is going to punish my aireals with a dash grab.
*dies*
Also, range and GR CG are all that MK has in this MU. Of course Lucas doesn't have anything against MK except maybe some damage with PKT offstage, but theres characters that get outranged and gimped, yet go 60-40 with mk. I honestly don't see how you can a MU so bad because of range and a GR CG.

whoops grammar fail

 

[Chuee]

You're thinking of yourself as a multiple organism now? Because you're the only one who fits the whole "clueless ignorant dumb" part.
According to you.

There is no logic to Lucas doing well against MK.
Theres not logic behind any other characters then either. You don't have to have something you can abuse on a character to not get ***** by them. Theres hardly any characters that actually have something they can do on mk that affects the MU, yet half the cast goes 60-40 with him.

Every point you have brought up has been countered multiple ways.
My points get countered by people who know absolutely flat out nothing about Lucas. I have people coming in here saying Lucas is EASY to gimp with mk.

The only other Lucas to talk about this flat out said you're wrong.
Who happens to be the only Lucas that thinks that way.

Currently, your MU topic says otherwise. Say what you want about it being "randomly changed", but that's what it says. If it was truly "randomly changed" your board would have complained about it to the TC and either made him change it or start a new MU topic.
The MU topic was created by the guy that thinks its 65-35. Who would complain about something that nobody even looks at. Nobody pays attention to that.

And then you go away in a hissy fit, claiming you aren't but you actually are, come back to poke at a guy's spelling and grammar, and now you're not even trying to argue with facts but pointless flaming.


You lost. Lucas gets wrecked by MK. End of freaking topic.
Im sorry, it isn't up to an Ike main to decide a ratio for Lucas' MU. I don't give a **** about you're opinion on a MU you've never played, nor have ever seen been played at a high level.

10characters
EDIT: Done, don't care what anybody else says. Next discussion.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Zelda has better range of course. As for Up Bing if people get near that depends on the speed of the character. Some characters can get to her before the move gets off which is a problem. Ivy can also sometimes snap to the edge with Up B before they get a chance to do anything. Obviously situational. If Ivy is under the stage he's completely screwed. Zelda is only pretty screwed. Both recoveries such but I'd say Ivy's is better. Also Ivy can actually gimp and harass offstage. Not incredibly well but he has some options.

Zelda's reflector is better than nothing but not by much. Easily baited and all with too much lag at the end. I honestly don't know which is better in a spam war. Neither character should be engaged in one anyway.

Zelda's Fair is probably better. Bair's when compared directly may be about equally useful but Ivy's gives him a much needed spacing move which Zelda lacks.

Bringing fatigue into this complicates things far too much.

Fatigue is a legitimate problem though. IMO, it's why Zelda is better than Ivy.

Neither should get into a spam war, but you don't have a choice sometimes, as neither can really approach (ivy is better, but not by much)

Zelda can't do much to someone offstage, but Dins is good for a bait to smash if they don't go for the edge (throw out and stop the dins instantly, then charge a smash as they airdodge the assumed dins)

Zelda's F/Bair are actually good spacing moves. She has decent aerial speed, and no one wants to run into a lightning kick.

Ivy might have slightly better overall characteristics, but he has fatigue. It really ruins him.

 

[Matador]

It's funny how Smashboards works...

Every character has a main that is so incredibly vocal about their character and "knows" the most about them....they're there for every match-up discussion displaying their bias...but they're horrible at the game. What's worse, they have some crazy excuse for why they know so much about their character but suck so hard at displaying that in practice...nor do they have vids to show.

Chuee sorta kinda reminds me of that universal person...though I've never seen him play.

 

[Red Arremer]

Chuee is no troll. He believes what he says is true and takes himself seriously. Therefore, he's not a troll.

 

[zeldspazz]

Zeldas need to start edge guarding more. People don't realize if you get nailed with a Lk offstage whether it be fair bair or dair you're as good as dead.

 

[Dekar173]

Ivy has a move that beats her entire moveset- downB.

@Lucas discussion- can we all grow up? Lucas loses to MK, or doesn't, who cares? MK's not allowed in low tier tourneys!

:D

 

[Tarmogoyf]

zeldspazz knows more about Zelda than me I'm sure. I haven't played her in more than a year lol.

Shiek> charizard Dekar lol. And still fatigue

 

[C.J.]

I would think that Sheik > Charizard.

BTW, Stingers, DK aerial downB > squirtle's downB.

 

[Tien2500]

Fatigue is a legitimate problem though. IMO, it's why Zelda is better than Ivy.

Neither should get into a spam war, but you don't have a choice sometimes, as neither can really approach (ivy is better, but not by much)

Ivy can at least pester with Bair, has a usable grab. Nair is decent.

Zelda can't do much to someone offstage, but Dins is good for a bait to smash if they don't go for the edge (throw out and stop the dins instantly, then charge a smash as they airdodge the assumed dins)

That might trip up newer opponents but once you've seen it you can deal with it easily enough.

Zelda's F/Bair are actually good spacing moves. She has decent aerial speed, and no one wants to run into a lightning kick.

Can you explain how to use Fair or Bair to space? I was pretty sure you could sheild/punish those. They're good moves for mistake punishing but I don't see how to use them to space.

Ivy might have slightly better overall characteristics, but he has fatigue. It really ruins him.

Talking about Ivy as an individual character and as a part of Pokemon Trainer are different discussions. Fatigue is obviously bad but being able to switch has its benefits. If you factor Sheik into the equation things get even more complex.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Ivy can at least pester with Bair, has a usable grab. Nair is decent.

No disagreement there

That might trip up newer opponents but once you've seen it you can deal with it easily enough.

It forces mixups though. They don't airdodge it and get it. It's useful as a mixup, nothing else. Still a use.

Can you explain how to use Fair or Bair to space? I was pretty sure you could sheild/punish those. They're good moves for mistake punishing but I don't see how to use them to space.

Basically, just retreating aerials. It means they cant rush in as safely.

Talking about Ivy as an individual character and as a part of Pokemon Trainer are different discussions. Fatigue is obviously bad but being able to switch has its benefits. If you factor Sheik into the equation things get even more complex.

I totally agree with this, but ivy is unable to exist as an individual. Zelda can. So no matter what, Ivy has to switch or deal with fatigue.

 

[zeldspazz]

I think Zelda and Ivysaur are very close.

Their recoveries are both pretty awful. Zeldas is better when it comes to actual making it on stage but being so laggy she often take a pretty hefty amount of damage. The distance is good and angle issues have been results through research of it's flexibilty and she has good aerial movement. Really the issue is how predictable it is so it gets punished. I've on the other hand has tools like bair and razer leaf to keep the edge safe and has good range for his upb but you're screwed from below and he has nothing that offers him much horizontal recovery so that can be an issue. I'd say Zeldas is very slightly better in terms of how much less nervewracking it is to get back onstage but I'm sure Ivy takes far less damage if he's successful.

NO is actually pretty useless do to cooldown it's useul against Pika and a few others. It's issue is that it reflects but more often than not it doesn't make it back so you're better off powersheilding.