The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[<π]

You guys seem to be missing a major point.

You have D3 and Zelda... D3's ftilt distance away from each other.

Look at the incentives both characters have for moving from their spots. Zelda could get ftilted while NOTHING CAN HAPPEN TO D3 that can't be avoided on reaction.

This means D3 can walk up to ftilt range, and just sit there... maybe dash back... roll back... maybe turn around and do an empty short hop...

Point is, he's safe. Zelda is the one who HAS to move around, and she's very, very terrible at it.

D3 is the one setting the pace of the match; he's the one that's able get the other on the move. Once you've figured that out it's a matter of playing a very patient zoning game- lots of feint attacks, some ftilts, and LOTs of really safe shielding and rolling away- all to catch Zelda in bad spots which DO come. Outspace her with f-airs, run under her with shields, and catch some landings with ftilt. That's how you'll be dealing damage.

gg Zelda

I said this three times already. I bet you get the same response I got. "If D3 ftilts he'll be punished on reaction!"

 

[adumbrodeus]

What can I say, people need to perfect shield consistently.


If you're already in ftilt range... that's not where it's useful.



I'll say it right now, Zelda is currently receiving a great deal of negative hype, and as much as I'd love to debate her to right after Yoshi, it's all pretty irrelevant atm, because without some reasonable representation, she might as well be bottom 3 for all the influence she has on the metagame.

 

[Shaya]

If you want to throw out powershielding, then any of Zeldas moves d3 power shields he can shield grab :S.

Also upsmash oos doesnt outrange d3s bair... looool.

Either way, Zelda does not go even with D3.
ITS PROBABLY somewhere bewteen 65:35 and 60:40.

Her match up with Dedede is probably one of her best in the high tiers.

 

[JRob]

Adumbrodeus, you're assuming Zelda will be in perfect position to do all of this stuff you're mentioning like upsmash D3's b-air. In reality her extremely poor mobility and speed very often times impede on her ability get into position to get these... move-on-move interactions you keep bringing up. Pure move priority and frame data theorycrafting doesn't tend to solve much when you're talking about Zelda...

I said this three times already. I bet you get the same response I got. "If D3 ftilts he'll be punished on reaction!"

lol

You can only realistically punish spaced ftilts by taking preventative measures- short hopping towards D3 a bit, shielding... That's about it.

Those both put you in worse spots than a neutral position if you predict wrong about D3 ftilting...

But if I looked back at the discussion I bet you've made the same point. >.>

If it makes a difference, I'm not theorycrafting... I've literally got more than 5k matches under my belt against Zelda with a wide variety of characters. Never have NOT 3-stocked Zeldas in tourney play as well...

Btw, this is DanGR on my bro's account- not really a random person with 40-somethin posts arguing about Zelda. ._.

That all said, Id also like to mention the intense amount of cooldown on many of her attacks. This plays a pretty important role in how well she can recover from defending against feint movements. Can't afford to miss with very many attacks. At least fsmash is pretty safe... This also makes her zoning game pretty terrible. V:

 

[Dark.Pch]

Uhhh, how does Zelda stop Dedede just walking towards her? Nothing?
All of this whilst outranging and out prioritising her moves?
Are you kidding me?

That is a goos thing dude. Remember, Zelda can't approach. DDD is going to her with tilts. So that saves her the trouble of going in. You and the others keep ignoring the fact that she can punish his Tilts.

"oh, DDD wants to walk away and space the move., she cant do nothing hahahah"

BS. If he is doing that, Zelda can move in a lil and pin DDD to a corner. actually giving her a change to approach with the shield. Then he can get punished if he keeps with the nonsese.

You know what your problem is, you are so with the Zelda is so terrible crap that you just can't see her doing anything right. You really don't know about Zelda and you dont know about her match ups. Then when people try to bring you the info that you lack, you push it to the side? I clap to the BBR for this.

I said this three times already. I bet you get the same response I got. "If D3 ftilts he'll be punished on reaction!"

Cause it is true and it is also............COMMON SENSE. Like de que diablo....

 

['V']

Pretty sure Dedede wins this matchup. It's one of Zelda's better matchup with the high tiers, but it's still not her advantage. I've played that matchup numerous times from her end. 60:40 Dedede IMO. Even at best.

There's a reason why Zelda's low tier.

 

[Shaya]

I could call you out for the same bias DP.
I secondary Dedede in tournaments and Ive been using Sheik (and in part Zelda until a certain point...) for MOST OF MY BRAWL CAREER.

You play Zelda too now and you think Zelda can safely hit d3s shield and do normal things that hinder him like RUNNING THE HELL AWAY? How does Zelda pressure d3s shield when her best moves have COOLDOWN or are easily shield grabbed by the beast?
I never said walking around outside her range and ftilting, Im walking outside her range moving closer and if she tries to do anything my ftilt covers all of her options before I start getting grab or bair happy, and if shes being spammy with fsmash Ill just b reverse super armor through it with inhale.

Jeebus DP, you bring me info that I actively refute with real arguments and knowledge of the match up. Moves against moves. You just say Zelda can push d3 in a corner and state it as fact. I clap to your argumentative skills.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If you want to throw out powershielding, then any of Zeldas moves d3 power shields he can shield grab :S.

Also upsmash oos doesnt outrange d3s bair... looool.

Either way, Zelda does not go even with D3.
ITS PROBABLY somewhere bewteen 65:35 and 60:40.

Her match up with Dedede is probably one of her best in the high tiers.

I mean on reaction, ftilt is slow, hence why it's a space controler and a threat, not a poke.

I'm almost positive that at the angle that f-smash can't beat it, up-smash does, eh I'll check the hitbubbles on them sometime beaten now and when it gets discussed on the boards.


Did I say it was even though? Or in Zelda's favor, she's in "does not beat anyone besides Ganondorf effectively" level position. At the moment, anything 60-40 or better above low tier tends to dispute that.


Regardles, I believe I made my point.

 

[Shaya]

Link does swellingly well against a lot of the cast as well.
He has a slew of 40-60 match ups with most of the cast bar a select few that he gets destroyed by.
Like Zelda. Except in my opinion Zelda has even worse match ups than Link.
Ganondorf is an abysmal level below abysmal. The difference ended up not giving merit for his own tier.

None of the 3 have a respectable match up against MK.
Link has an okay match up against Snake.
Ganon has a winnable match up against Diddy (from what Ive been told).
Zeldas first reasonable match up shows up at no.5; Ice Climbers. Many of the tournament IC mains I know think its a reasonable advantage for ICs (swordgard I believe, Hylian I know for sure). So Zelda has two match ups in the top 12 characters that arent too bad. So suddenly shes better than Gano- oh we knew that already.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Shaya, you missed his point.

He's saying Zelda has options to use on DDD on some moves that aren't as safe as people think they are, he's not praising Zelda.

I thank you for the Link comments, though, it's pretty much the truth.

 

[Nanaki]

Apparently I opened up a pretty meaty can of worms with that Zelda-DDD debate.

Anyway, I don't necessarily buy that Zelda does any better against him than any un-infinitable low tier. Doesn't mean the matchup's unwinnable bad, but I don't think it's something to cite as a selling point like "Use Zelda for your D3 matchup, low tier mains!"

Dudley beats MK 70-30. Discuss.

MK = Ibuki/Elena/Necro/Alex/Q?

Dudley looks sweet in SSF4.

/offtopic

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Dudley beats MK 70-30. Discuss.

Meta Knight has no dignity.

 

[Shaya]

Red Ryu, I was arguing

she's in "does not beat anyone besides Ganondorf effectively" level position. At the moment, anything 60-40 or better above low tier tends to dispute that.

Zelda is in the same tier as Link, people will need to prove to me shes just that much better than Link. AND extremely comparable to jigglypuff in viability.

And Im sorry guys,
but Dudley wont like my OTG DPM SL whilst hes poking my shieldz.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Link doesn't really belong in bottom tier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Red Ryu, I was arguing

she's in "does not beat anyone besides Ganondorf effectively" level position. At the moment, anything 60-40 or better above low tier tends to dispute that.

Zelda is in the same tier as Link, people will need to prove to me shes just that much better than Link. AND extremely comparable to jigglypuff in viability.

And Im sorry guys,
but Dudley wont like my OTG DPM SL whilst hes poking my shieldz.

Alright, I can agree with that.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Shaya I am gonna oblitorate that post when I get home from work. Im on my phone so can do it now. And from what you are saying, I dont think yow have actually played a good Zelda that knows how to fight DDD. I wanna see how you gonna talk your way out of this one. You are serious lwtting how bad zelda is blind you to things she can do and deal with. And you just dont wanna except it at all. Reasons like this you people keep screwing up tier list and other stuff.

 

[Red Arremer]

Meta Knight has no dignity.

He's gutter trash.

 

[Yonder]

I like MK, I just wish he wasn't the best in the game

 

[Shaya]

What are you even going to argue for DP?
That Zelda is advantaged against D3?
Are you saying she goes... EVEN?

Im not going to bother arguing with you over you thinking its even; and you are kidding yourself for thinking Zelda wins. Match ups against Dedede are becoming LESS important these days if you still happen to lose to everyone else.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Thanks for getting my point Ryu.

Link does swellingly well against a lot of the cast as well.
He has a slew of 40-60 match ups with most of the cast bar a select few that he gets destroyed by.
Like Zelda. Except in my opinion Zelda has even worse match ups than Link.
Ganondorf is an abysmal level below abysmal. The difference ended up not giving merit for his own tier.

None of the 3 have a respectable match up against MK.
Link has an okay match up against Snake.
Ganon has a winnable match up against Diddy (from what Ive been told).
Zeldas first reasonable match up shows up at no.5; Ice Climbers. Many of the tournament IC mains I know think its a reasonable advantage for ICs (swordgard I believe, Hylian I know for sure). So Zelda has two match ups in the top 12 characters that arent too bad. So suddenly shes better than Gano- oh we knew that already.

Then maybe we're, dear god, underrating link.


High tier MUs>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>how characters do against other low tiers. A few reasonably good MUs in the higher tiers are more important then how a character does against characters that they never ever fight. Low tiers only matter for a tierlist for low tiers. Yea, sure they matter a little, but unless the MU is crazy or the low tier is extremely popular for some reason, it matters a hell of a lot less then anything in high tiers, and the high you go, the more it matters.


Also, you know what "winnable" is for Ganon, right? "Not worse then 75-25", right? Seriously, Ganon mains have the most amazing "can do" attitude in the metagame today, it's inspiring.


That D3 is less important is a very fair point however, but by the same token, I think we're still overrating his MUs in general.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

We have been underrating Link for a year or more. lol

His recovery is absolutely terrible, but that's pretty much it. Everything else about him is just mediocre or even pretty good.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I have yet to state what I think Zelda Vs DDD is. Lets not be pushy and jump to conclusions here, Shaya.

 

[HeroMystic]

We have been underrating Link for a year or more. lol

His recovery is absolutely terrible, but that's pretty much it. Everything else about him is just mediocre or even pretty good.

With good DI, and the use of bombs, his recovery isn't as exploited as people say. That's not to say it isn't terrible, but it seems to be the most stressed negative that keeps Link down.

Many people tend to disregard Link's ability to space, which is what I'd like to say good. Z-air, projectiles, and even his ground moves compliments all of these. The problem arises when Link has to score a kill. Despite having about six kill moves (D-air, Up-B, F-tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, U-Tilt), only two are safe on block (F-Smash(First hit) and U-tilt), but even then F-Smash if power-shielded opens him for punishment.

Link's offensive properties are below average. Most of his combos come from the Z-air, which if shielded and not spaced allows for punishment, and alot of his stuff like U-tilt and U-Smash juggles can be SDI'd.

His ability to break out of juggles is pretty poor too... which is like a slap in the face to his good spacing ability. Best he has is N-air, which isn't very fast and not disjointed enough. Characters can blitz him and still win.

Definitely not bottom-tier material. I don't even see why he's still there after all this time, but he's definitely low-tier material.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Low tier certainly, but I can't even fathom him being in the same tier as ganon, lol.

And he's DEFINITELY better than CF. I think almost everyone is, lol. Most overhyped character ever

Also I agree about his recovery, but I think that even as terrible as it is, there are characters with worse recovery in tiers higher than him.

 

[Scabe]

I'm liking what I'm hearing about Link.

 

[JOE!]

Indeed, how the hell can a character with both a sword (big disjoints o'doom) and multiple projectiles be in bottom tier?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I have a Link but dont play him seriously. maybe I should. That where the BBR can denie how good he is and make some excusse when results are in thier face.

 

[Nanaki]

Also I agree about his recovery, but I think that even as terrible as it is, there are characters with worse recovery in tiers higher than him.

Like Olimar. Too bad Olimar's such an enormous beast onstage.

Indeed, how the hell can a character with both a sword (big disjoints o'doom) and multiple projectiles be in bottom tier?

He was there in SSB64 too...

/Irrelevant.

 

[KillaFrmNY]

YES i knew mk would move up!

 

[<π]

Dair auto cancels at certain heights and is pretty safe on most characters sheild. its range is so huge most people just can't contest it.
Up B oos is an amazing punish.

You need good DI to be a good link though.

 

[Clai]

Also, you know what "winnable" is for Ganon, right? "Not worse then 75-25", right? Seriously, Ganon mains have the most amazing "can do" attitude in the metagame today, it's inspiring.

無茶で無謀と笑われようと、mucha de mubou to waraware youto (kamina)
Whether it's laughable or irrational
維持が支えの喧嘩道！ iji ga sasae no kenka michi (kamina)
This is the path that ALL great men walk!
壁があったら殴って壊す！kabe ga attara nagutte kowasu (simon)
If there's a wall in our way, we'll destroy it!
道がなければ、この手で作る！ michi ga nakereba, kono te de tsukuru (simon)
If there's no road, we'll pave it with our own hands!
心のマグマが炎と燃える！ kokoro no maguma ga homura to moeru (together)
The magma in our hearts is blazing like flames!
超絶合体！グレンラガン！ chouzetsu gattai! GURREN-LAGANN! (together)
The perfect fusion: GURREN-LAGANN!
俺を… ore o (simon)
Who...
俺たちを… ore tachi o (kamina)
...all of you...
誰だと思ってやがる！！！ dare da to omotte yagaru!!! (together)
The he** do you think we are!?!

I think that Link is most certainly better than Samus. The fact that he can spawn bombs makes his projectiles much better than Samus' projectiles, he has disjoints on most of his attacks, his b-air is disgustingly good, he has actual jab set-ups, I can go on. Samus may have better mobility, but her floatiness prevents her from mounting any type of offensive momentum, and when her defensive game can be broken by good use of perfect shielding and SDI, bad offensive momentum is going to kill you.

 

[Albert.]

You need good DI to be a good link though.

THIS^^^


If you're not gonna DI every horizontal hit upwards, you're gonna get gimped early. You're actually more in danger of being gimped the lower your percent. (because certain characters can combo him off the stage/hit him out of 2nd jump.)

At mid/high percents, Links with good DI can avoid being gimped as much simply by being hit so high upward (diagonally) that they can avoid the ledge entirely, or at least avoid a ledgehug gimp.

 

[Espy Rose]

Also, you know what "winnable" is for Ganon, right? "Not worse then 75-25", right? Seriously, Ganon mains have the most amazing "can do" attitude in the metagame today, it's inspiring.

They also main Ganon. They have nothing left to lose.
Not to mention they're all borderline insane anyways. Haven't you visited Ganon's Beard?

I will salute their manly choice of character, though. It takes a large set to main a character who's as hopeless as him.

 

[<π]

link is one of my favorite characters to play. If I didn't main sheik I'd be using him in tourney.

 

[adumbrodeus]

無茶で無謀と笑われようと、mucha de mubou to waraware youto (kamina)
Whether it's laughable or irrational
維持が支えの喧嘩道！ iji ga sasae no kenka michi (kamina)
This is the path that ALL great men walk!
壁があったら殴って壊す！kabe ga attara nagutte kowasu (simon)
If there's a wall in our way, we'll destroy it!
道がなければ、この手で作る！ michi ga nakereba, kono te de tsukuru (simon)
If there's no road, we'll pave it with our own hands!
心のマグマが炎と燃える！ kokoro no maguma ga homura to moeru (together)
The magma in our hearts is blazing like flames!
超絶合体！グレンラガン！ chouzetsu gattai! GURREN-LAGANN! (together)
The perfect fusion: GURREN-LAGANN!
俺を… ore o (simon)
Who...
俺たちを… ore tachi o (kamina)
...all of you...
誰だと思ってやがる！！！ dare da to omotte yagaru!!! (together)
The he** do you think we are!?!

I think that Link is most certainly better than Samus. The fact that he can spawn bombs makes his projectiles much better than Samus' projectiles, he has disjoints on most of his attacks, his b-air is disgustingly good, he has actual jab set-ups, I can go on. Samus may have better mobility, but her floatiness prevents her from mounting any type of offensive momentum, and when her defensive game can be broken by good use of perfect shielding and SDI, bad offensive momentum is going to kill you.

Right on queue, Clai appears.

They also main Ganon. They have nothing left to lose.
Not to mention they'll all borderline insane anyways. Haven't you visited Ganon's Beard?

I will salute their manly choice of character, though. It takes a large set to main a character who's as hopeless as him.

I'm a regular at Ganon's beard actually, I love Ganon, such a fun secondary.


But you see my point, it's "winnable" for Ganon because Ganon players have really low standards for "winnable".

 

[TP]

When the time comes, Ganon mains will be heavily rewarded for the faith in the dark one.

But that time has not yet come.

 

[Espy Rose]

I lurk the Ganon GD frequently, Adumbrodeus. Some of the things that happen there are comedic gold. I love it.
TP's post is a good example.

 

[Nanaki]

I think that Link is most certainly better than Samus. The fact that he can spawn bombs makes his projectiles much better than Samus' projectiles, he has disjoints on most of his attacks, his b-air is disgustingly good, he has actual jab set-ups, I can go on. Samus may have better mobility, but her floatiness prevents her from mounting any type of offensive momentum, and when her defensive game can be broken by good use of perfect shielding and SDI, bad offensive momentum is going to kill you.

Not to mention she hits like a limp noodle when it's time to actually try to kill someone.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I'm liking what I'm hearing about Link.

why is it the link in your avatar looks totally stoned

 

[adumbrodeus]

I lurk the Ganon GD frequently, Adumbrodeus. Some of the things that happen there are comedic gold. I love it.
TP's post is a good example.

I know, you see my posts there occassionally.


Favorite one was: "Ganondorf mains have taken to discussing the meaning of life and the nature of the universe because it's far more likely they'll come to a conclusive result then win tournaments with Ganondorf"