The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Sure, let us change the flow of the discussion towards future prospective money matches lol

 

[stingers]

lol ganon dittos are fun. i want to mm some people in ganon dits

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I saw we start discussing CF MMs. Ganon and Zelda have gotten far too much attention recently. We cannot forget our old bottom tier placement guy named CF.

 

[Justblaze647]

Sure, let us change the flow of the discussion towards future prospective money matches lol

What, do you wanna talk about Zelda some more?

Talk about beating a dead horse...

lol ganon dittos are fun. i want to mm some people in ganon dits

You, sir, just made my day

 

[stingers]

the only time i can win with ganon is ganon dittos loooooooooool

melee ofc

 

[dainbramage]

This is like 3k posts too late, but hey.

As of the last update of Ankoku's thread:

 

[Justblaze647]

melee ofc

yes, ofc

Personally, I enjoy destroying Peach's with Ganon... And the rare opportunity I get to beat up on some scrub's Falcon

Edit: *looks up*

yeah... not to sure I understand what message that's supposed to convey...

maybe I'm just dumb

 

[Browny]

To be fair, you have to consider the tournament performance over the 8 month period before the list came out, which will show pikachu being much closer to the expected trend.

However that will only make pit's outlying value be even more obvious, and its distance will be even LARGER than it is there rofl.

 

[Kitamerby]

Pit is so amazing, he's way down in D tier, below LUIGI in the tournament rankings list!

Yeah, totally top 5 material right there, roflmao.

 

[dainbramage]

@blaze: not meant to convey anything. Just information.

@DJB: Ankoku's info is for the past 6 months right? i.e. 4/10/09 to 4/4/10.

So it covers 5 months prior to the new tier list and 1 after.



EDIT: For the record, zelda and sheik are both in there using the results for z+s. Hence why zelda massively overperforms. Sheik still underperforms, despite the (presumably negligible) boost from zelda. I was tossing up whether or not to include zelda, just keep in mind her data point is invalid.

 

[Yonder]

Pit is so amazing, he's way down in D tier, below LUIGI in the tournament rankings list!

Yeah, totally top 5 material right there, roflmao.

Well at the rate Boss is reppin Luigi, I wouldn't be surprised to see Luigi shoot up some more soon.

 

[Kitamerby]

Well at the rate Boss is reppin Luigi, I wouldn't be surprised to see Luigi shoot up some more soon.

Me neither. He's just the lowest person above Pit right now.

Hehehe.

 

[MrEh]

What, do you wanna talk about Zelda some more?

Talk about beating a dead horse...

Let's just cut to the chase then.


1. Zelda dropped due to poor tournament results and by being a bad character in general.

2. Zelda may or may not be 3rd worst, but according to her tournament results, she might as well be.

3. *insert obligatory "Zelda isn't low tier!" post from some dude that doesn't go out to tournaments*


Did I miss anything? lol

 

[Kitamerby]

Zelda's DownB is enough to bump her out of low tier.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Zelda's DownB is enough to bump her out of low tier.

Nah, it just bumps the player out of low tier.

 

[Tmacc]

Her best move changes her into a different character...'nuff said.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Pit being an outlier is pretty much due solely to the Japanese metagame which displayed him having a great deal of ability which the US metagame simply hasn't exploited as of yet, fair enough?

 

[Shaya]

Not fair enough Adum.

Werent you here when I massively raged about Pit?
Even though I came to terms with that rage.
Because every other character in his tier is as good as he is.
So I just pretend hes 16th.

 

[Kewkky]

Pit being an outlier is pretty much due solely to the Japanese metagame which displayed him having a great deal of ability which the US metagame simply hasn't exploited as of yet, fair enough?

What if it's the other way around? What if Pit is an outlier here in USA, but not because he's actually good, but because he's actually average and we make him seem good due to how he's viewed in some other metagame? Maybe with our styles of play (we're not as campy as Japan, apparently), Pit just can't seem to grab as many important tourneys as Japan can.

Oh, and a question... Is Masashi the only japanese Pit? Or are there more who place? If it's just Masashi, then wouldn't you say that his tier placement is inflated because of just one player, something we shouldn't do in tier lists (meaning that japan is doing something we don't do, and we're being influenced by that mistake)?

 

[Browny]

Pit being an outlier is pretty much due solely to the Japanese metagame which displayed him having a great deal of ability which the US metagame simply hasn't exploited as of yet, fair enough?

How about, Pit is an outlier because some people are willfully ignorant, incapable of forming their own opinions and jump on whatever hype bandwagon is going around at the time?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm not necessarily SAYING that he's that good, I'm merely explaining legitimate reasoning by which people could conclude that Pit is signifigantly better then tournament results would suggest.


I don't think he's THAT good, but I do think that in addition to showing better Pit players, they also show a more advanced Pit metagame.


And no, he isn't, he's just the best therefore the most recognizable.

 

[Kewkky]

But, it could also be that his "more advanced metagame" is only possible due to the campy nature of their overall metagame, something we don't share. Everyone here is defensive to an extenct, but we have playstyles where we take risks for high rewards, and win this way.

It's not like I can prove it, so it's more "food for thought" than an actual argument.

 

[wawahwario]

Well, Wario's drop was a much needed one. He looks about right now.
I never really looked into Zelda, I knew she's subpar, but -9 is really harsh. I'm getting the vibe Sakurai didn't like Twilight Princess, considering that the other 2 Zelda chars are further up there.
Considering Link, a character with unsurmountable weaknesses and no apparent strengths won't move out of bottom anytime soon. I can see him on the lowest spot in the tier above bottom, but that's pretty farfetched as well.

Why should Wario drop? He's still easily a top tier character with phenomenal recovery and he's very unpredictable, plus he can eat Diddy's banana's instantly so Diddy can't pull that trick on Wario

 

[Kewkky]

Why should Wario drop? He's still easily a top tier character with phenomenal recovery and he's very unpredictable, plus he can eat Diddy's banana's instantly so Diddy can't pull that trick on Wario

Well, his attacks are pretty jointed to his hurtbox. He might be able to weave in and out of your maximum range with ease (play footsies), but if his attacks require him to get very close to you, and if your opponent knows the MU and has fast aerial disjoints/frametrapping moves in his arsenal, you're pretty much screwed... Plus, it's been a while since we've heard anything about a Wario player shaking up the tourneys everywhere he goes. Pretty much points toward him being overhyped when different people were beating M2K in tourneys.

 

[DMG]

He's good, but not amazing.

 

[PieDisliker]

I personally thought Wario needed the drop, but I think it was too much. I don't see why Ice Climbers are better than him.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I think Wario gets ***** by MK, making him bad ;;

 

[Red Arremer]

Wario has a lot of Grab Release stuff going on him, his results aren't that outstanding - usually floating somewhere between 6 and 8. While the Ice Climbers basically have the option of "one grab, one stock" and place well pretty constantly. Probably the bigger reasons.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Pit being an outlier is pretty much due solely to the Japanese metagame which displayed him having a great deal of ability which the US metagame simply hasn't exploited as of yet, fair enough?

Is there a single Japanese representative in the SBR?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Wario has a lot of Grab Release stuff going on him, his results aren't that outstanding - usually floating somewhere between 6 and 8. While the Ice Climbers basically have the option of "one grab, one stock" and place well pretty constantly. Probably the bigger reasons.

I think depending on the region those results are good. However. Malcolm typically places 5th. Blue Rogue I haven't seen place lower than 5th actually. Jnig, Bassem, DMG, and Hunger tend to place very high at least 4th barring the recent results of Hobo of course. If you compare these results to someone like Climbers or Marth then it's clear to see. You also need to factor in who is placing. There are a lot more Wario placing high then there is for characters like Marth or Climbers. Fact of the matter is Wario lost a national level player in Fiction where as other Characters did not that hurt him in the results a lot however, they have been other wario well. Those who i've listed and guys such as quik Masky and Waft Oli. However, if you take the top player from a character of course their results will suffer. I don't think I need to go into who is best with who just imagine a year of a characters development with out their highest ranking player. Not only did Wario lose it's best player it lost it's second best in Phantom X who hasn't tried in god knows how long but still manages to do well. The GR stuff is inconsequential that has been known about Wario since IDK how long and he still was raised to 3rd on the tier list to use that as a justification of lowering him is simply wrong. Not to leave any wario mains out but there's also guys like slik gluttony and timotee and krsytdez and Gichan players who you've prob never heard off but place extremely high in their regions. Then there's the players who flirt with Wario like Shadow, Kool-Aid, and Judge and Boss. I think you just need to pay more attention to tourney result threads and instead of just looking at ankokou's thread of wherever you're info from.

@Vex Wario doesn't get ***** by MK he isn't marth.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

@Vex Wario doesn't get ***** by MK he isn't marth.

If you say so :/

I consider the Matchup around 65:35 if not 6:4 at the very best on a starting neutral.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If you say so :/

I consider the Matchup around 65:35 if not 6:4 at the very best on a starting neutral.

I think 6-4 is more appropriate however, it's not **** and Wario can definitely win the match up.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's really frustrating. Poor Wario has to stay away so much.

Now that I think about it, my theory of "mobility is the primary part of usefulness" works well with the fact that I used to main Wario. He's pretty ridiculous as a character; I think he's better than Ice Climbers, myself.

 

[Red Arremer]

words

It's not what I think. I tried to reason it. I think he's better than the Ice Climbers.

I love these tier list threads so much.
When there's no BBR members posting, people complain because nobody tells them why character X is in position Y, and want the BBRoomers to give an explanation other than "all votes counted together result in this position".
Now that there's BBRoomers trying to explain a general reasoning that probably and/or likely got the position Y for character X, they're told off and handled like they had no idea of anything.

Haha.

 

[Dark.Pch]

It's not what I think. I tried to reason it. I think he's better than the Ice Climbers.

I love these tier list threads so much.
When there's no BBR members posting, people complain because nobody tells them why character X is in position Y, and want the BBRoomers to give an explanation other than "all votes counted together result in this position".
Now that there's BBRoomers trying to explain a general reasoning that probably and/or likely got the position Y for character X, they're told off and handled like they had no idea of anything.

Haha.

Geez.........................I wonder why?

 

[Red Arremer]

And why did I know that the first response was going to be from Dark.Pch with an anti-BBR posting?

 

[Dark.Pch]

You know what is funny about that post? I knew you was gonna post something like that as soon as I saw you was the new post in here.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It's really frustrating. Poor Wario has to stay away so much.

Now that I think about it, my theory of "mobility is the primary part of usefulness" works well with the fact that I used to main Wario. He's pretty ridiculous as a character; I think he's better than Ice Climbers, myself.

Hmm I left you out on the list of Wario mains that stop playing him =/. Man losing Reflex, Px and Fiction talk about a huge loss =/.

It's not what I think. I tried to reason it. I think he's better than the Ice Climbers.

I love these tier list threads so much.
When there's no BBR members posting, people complain because nobody tells them why character X is in position Y, and want the BBRoomers to give an explanation other than "all votes counted together result in this position".
Now that there's BBRoomers trying to explain a general reasoning that probably and/or likely got the position Y for character X, they're told off and handled like they had no idea of anything.

Haha.

It's typical because we reject the general reasoning. For example:

"For pit even though he lacks the tourney results we took the Japanese pits play style and used that to determine his position"

Are we really supposed to take that as valid reasoning as too why pit moved up? Because of the way Japan pits play? Can you not look at the play style of Kool-aid esca and sagemoon or their results? The general consensus amongst most players is that the Japanese play style is inferior to American. So why use them as a part of reference ? Better yet why use only pit ? What's so special about him are all the American pit's doing it wrong? I just don't get it nor do I pit it. Also I think vex plays pit.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Hmm I left you out on the list of Wario mains that stop playing him =/. Man losing Reflex, Px and Fiction talk about a huge loss =/.



It's typical because we reject the general reasoning. For example:

"For pit even though he lacks the tourney results we took the Japanese pits play style and used that to determine his position"

Are we really supposed to take that as valid reasoning as too why pit moved up? Because of the way Japan pits play? Can you not look at the play style of Kool-aid esca and sagemoon or their results? The general consensus amongst most players is that the Japanese play style is inferior to American. So why use them as a part of reference ? Better yet why use only pit ? What's so special about him are all the American pit's doing it wrong? I just don't get it nor do I pit it. Also I think vex plays pit.

Used to, but then I realized ledge rules **** him when theres no reason for ledge rules to effect him, hes not even top 5 with planking.

 

[Red Arremer]

It's typical because we reject the general reasoning.

I'm sorry, but then we cannot give you any other answer but "Because we voted it so".

If you don't want a general reasoning, you'll have to ask each and every BBRoomer who voted personally what their votes are and why they think these characters should be there or there, and then add it up.

We, as in us being the people who post in this thread and try to explain, can only observe tendencies and whatnot, but in result, it only winds down to "cause the sum of our votes made this character go into that spot".

Either accept that we only can give you our thoughts and observations as to why the sum of our votes put a character into their spot, or accept the fact it was a voting process with different people and different opinions stating their thoughts in form of a voting.