The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Nidtendofreak]

Which is why you see a lot of Zeldas placing high at low tiers up there with the Ikes and Bowsers?

????

She doesn't place in low tier tournaments really at all. Nor does she destroy anyone in low tier not named Ganondorf.

Most top 8 low tier results are filled with Ikes, with Ness also dominating if he's allowed, with the scattering of other characters randomly thrown in. I see more Falcons and Samuses then Zeldas.

There might be more Zeldas then Bowsers, Links, and maybe Lucases...but that's about it. At least around here in Texas.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The control is not enough to cause a 3 frame variance that's impossible to powershield itself!

22 frames to cross FD with a very very large turning radius. There is not enough time to create such a shift in trajectory to give such vast difference in the powershield window without being incredibly telegraphed in its own right and thus... easy to powershield.


The only things that might make them harder to powershield than Falco's lasers is the fact that they're faster plus they come in from angles that you're not used to powershielding from, which means you just need to practice until it becomes as easy as powershielding Falco's lasers. In other words, you can NOT say that it's possible to powershield falco lasers for 8 minutes but not Pit's arrows. That's just a really bad contradiction.

Considering that the 8 frame reaction time is more then a third of the distance of FD... I'd be surprised if you CAN'T get more then a 3 frame variance over 8 frames.

Whatever happened to the BBR matchup ratio chart?

Give it some time.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Give it some time.

Bracing yourselves for the sudden flood of flames and pure hate upon showing the list?

 

[Kewkky]

Bracing yourselves for the sudden flood of flames and pure hate upon showing the list?

Yeah, the flame and pure hate flood that people will end up forgetting and agreeing upon eventually. Just like every tier list so far, am I right?

 

[Browny]

The hate, shall be... ETERNAL!

 

[MrEh]

Is Zelda 3rd worst? Obviously not.

But considering her placings, she might as well be. Zeldas don't place period. If we look at her placings, it's amazing that she's even above Ganon.

It's sad when the Zelda community's 2nd best player doesn't even play singles. And the best player doesn't lives hundreds of miles away from civilization. lol

 

[Kewkky]

One of my friends (about 5 mins walking from where I live) mains Zelda, but he hasn't been able to win as many matches recently. Zelda's just really easy to counter, you look at her grab and compare it to Ganondorf's... It pretty much proves that she has no viable counter to shielding, pretty much what bottom tier's most notable weakness is.

 

[adumbrodeus]

She has jab and.... jab.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Is Zelda 3rd worst? Obviously not.

But considering her placings, she might as well be. Zeldas don't place period. If we look at her placings, it's amazing that she's even above Ganon.

It's sad when the Zelda community's 2nd best player doesn't even play singles. And the best player doesn't lives hundreds of miles away from civilization. lol

Scary places with Zelda.

 

[MrEh]

Scary places with Zelda.

So does DM, but that's fairly moot considering the region that we live in. I should have rephrased what I said. Zeldas do not place in areas that matter. The fact that Ganon and Link probably do better in tournaments then Zelda does shows how little Zeldas are placing in important areas.

She didn't even place consistently enough to even justify her last spot on the tier list.

She has jab and.... jab.

And Fsmash.

Poor Zelda though. You can actually just run up to her and shield, and it's almost perfectly safe. lol

 

[Justblaze647]

I don't see how Jiggz can be considered to be better than Zelda... I've checked MU's and frame data and tourney placings and each individual characteristic about each character...

I just don't see it

 

[Kewkky]

Probably the whole "able to stall out matches for a win" thing she can do. She can rising pound below the stage back and forth, and grab the ledge whenever she's safe, then start all over again.

All theory, but it sounds very nice.

 

[Justblaze647]

The only character Jiggz could effectively stall would be Ganon

/thatsnotsayingmuch

 

[Xebenkeck]

I thought Zeldas Dsmash OoS was pretty good,

and if not out of shield then out of spot dodge is like automatic.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Putting Zelda (or Link for that matter) in the same tier as Ganon is dumb.

 

[MrEh]

It's not dumb when the Links are placing higher and more consistently then the Zeldas are. Again, no one really believes that Zelda is third worst. But by looking at her placings and threat the poses in tournament, it's completely justified.

Oh, and Zelda is really bad. Not third worst bad, but really bad nonetheless. Terrible recovery, bad special moves (for solo-Zelda anyway), awkward aerials, terrible grab, etc.

 

[Meru.]

I like her aerials. Fair and Bair are just amazing @_@.

You don't hear that a lot, huh?

 

[Shaya]

I think Zelda is bottom three >.>

Like, I honestly do not see many characters that are most definitely worse than her... a couple of close ones sure...

 

[Dark.Pch]

This is all this community is good for. Bashing a character over and over and over again. And over hyping/biasing the other ones. People get it, she is not all that. But People can't seem to explain both her pros and cons equally. WTF are you people gonna achive by bashing characters to no end.The hell happen to discussing characters fully around here.

Oh wait, I forgot where I am.

 

[MrEh]

When you play with arguably the best Zelda in the nation, you grow to realize exactly how terrible she is, even when there's a good player running her.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Yea, So for that, zelda has no pros. just cons. This also applies to link. nothing but bashing this dude to no end. As I said before, people pay attention to what they wanna pay attention too.

"Link has a good ground game"

'But he sucks"

"Link can make good use of his projectiles"

"So what he sucks, his recovery is so bad"

"Link Can space and zone in well"

"means nothing, he sucks"

"Link can force an approach"

"But he is horrible"

"Links air combat is not that bad, but his ground is better"

"But he is balls, he can't do anything and has horrible recovery"

This is smashboards for you. Link should not be that low. And all I hear for him being this low is...well look above. Good job smashboards.

 

[Kewkky]

Well, what do you want us to do, Dark.Pch? Overhype a character? Saying good things about a bad character doesn't make them better. We just like being realistic and not beating around the bush. Or are you saying no one in SWF has tried to prove the whole "he sucks" argument wrong? EVERY competitive mainer of every character has tried placing with their mains in tourneys, INCLUDING Zelda/Link mainers, but they still can't show that their characters are worth any praise. It's like trying to say good things about Kirby/Pichu/Yoshi in Melee (Ness' YoYo glitches are good things to me).

Spoiler

inb4serverswitchfinishes

 

[HeroMystic]

Negative aspects of a character can be "overhyped" as well.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

So does DM, but that's fairly moot considering the region that we live in. I should have rephrased what I said. Zeldas do not place in areas that matter. The fact that Ganon and Link probably do better in tournaments then Zelda does shows how little Zeldas are placing in important areas.

She didn't even place consistently enough to even justify her last spot on the tier list.

I live in FL? I think it's a pretty good region. Just sayin'.

 

[Javon89]

Yea, So for that, zelda has no pros. just cons. This also applies to link. nothing but bashing this dude to no end. As I said before, people pay attention to what they wanna pay attention too.

"Link has a good ground game"

'But he sucks"

"Link can make good use of his projectiles"

"So what he sucks, his recovery is so bad"

"Link Can space and zone in well"

"means nothing, he sucks"

"Link can force an approach"

"But he is horrible"

"Links air combat is not that bad, but his ground is better"

"But he is balls, he can't do anything and has horrible recovery"

This is smashboards for you. Link should not be that low. And all I hear for him being this low is...well look above. Good job smashboards.

You forgot that he can go toe to toe with Snake better than any of the low tiers

Zelda is just terribad and her drop was inevitable. Link, I personally think should move higher.

 

[MrEh]

Zelda's only real pro is that she's freakishly strong. Seriously, there's nothing else. (Unless you count the ability to turn into a better character at the touch of a button. lol)

I live in FL? I think it's a pretty good region. Just sayin'.

I was mostly referring to the upper East Coast areas. Or Michigan. No disrespect to Florida.

 

[Zatchiel]

Im still disappointed sonic went down
But it is easy to see why i guess

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I was mostly referring to the upper East Coast areas. Or Michigan. No disrespect to Florida.

It's all good man. I just didn't understand the post

 

[Dark.Pch]

Well, what do you want us to do, Dark.Pch?

To learn how to discuss characters properly.

 

[Kitamerby]

You forgot that he can go toe to toe with Snake better than any of the low tiers

Zelda is just terribad and her drop was inevitable. Link, I personally think should move higher.

Since when?

Snake outspeeds, overpowers, outranges, recovers better, has better projectiles, survives much longer, and can gimp Link with a simple bthrow to bair. Remind me why this is close to even?

 

[Spelt]

To learn how to discuss characters properly.

teach us, o wise one~

 

[Technodeath]

i love the amount of whinging in this thread.

i am amuse

 

[Laem]

Since when?

Snake outspeeds, overpowers, outranges, recovers better, has better projectiles, survives much longer, and can gimp Link with a simple bthrow to bair. Remind me why this is close to even?

zair

10millionzairs/match

 

[Kitamerby]

zair

10millionzairs/match

Zair isn't nearly enough to make the match close to even.

 

[HeroMystic]

Since when?

Snake outspeeds, overpowers, outranges, recovers better, has better projectiles, survives much longer, and can gimp Link with a simple bthrow to bair. Remind me why this is close to even?

General agreement is 55:45 Snake.

Links Advantages

* Link's projectiles make approaching very difficult for Snake at times and rack up damage fast.
* All projectiles stop his best approach, his DAC or Mortar Slide.
* Link's KO power can KO Snake earlier then some other characters. Dair does a very good job at KOing Snake.
* Zair is very good at keeping Snake away from you due to his size. It also sets up for a few combos. Zair>Dash Attack/DAC/Grab.
* Snake is very easy to juggle due to a very poor aerial game.
* Snake doesn't have a lot to gimp you offstage with.
* Link can arguably out camp Snake.
* Even Snake may have a hard time KOing Link due to his weight and excellent DI.
* Very easy to punish his mediocre recovery.

Snake's Advantages

* Powerful tilt attacks that are abused/spammed often.
* Above average projectile game.
* Just about everything Snake has can kill.
* DAC makes for an excellent approach.
* Link cannot reliably grab Snake out of his cyhper to gimp Snake.
* Overall better KO potential then Link.

-KirinBlaze Input-
I definitely think this is even.

Link CAN out camp Snake. Snake cannot jump around the stage continuously dishing out projectiles like Link can. 2 of Snake's projectiles are stationary (The mine being SO easy to get rid of.), and he can only have two grenades out which are easily avoidable and take time to detonate. His FowardB is slow and leaves him open and easy to avoid. Link's Zair poses as a very big problem for Snake due to his height so Snake cannot effortlessly approach and Ftilt away unless he feels like power shielding it every singles time which is unrealestic. Arrows, Bombs, Zair, boomerang, these ALL stop Snake's best approach option, his DAC. RBS destorys his DAC, hell just even THROWING a bomb owns his DAC. Snake doesn't have much on Link offstage, mostly you can just expect time QCEH's from him, just toss a GaleRang or bomb and kick him back on. Link can KO Snake a lot better then some of the characters in this game. Jab cancels destroy him. Link can grab him out of his Ftilt so baiting him to Powershield through your projectiles into this is very good against him. Snake is garbage in the air and has a decent juggle game against him. Link can PUNISH the balls off of Snake if he slips up and recovers low, he eats Ftilts, Nairs, and Bairs and quickly racks up damage. Dair owns the common Snake players who AD when coming down to the stage or out of their cyhpers.

This match-up is 50:50 or 55:45 Snake at worst. I personally believe it's 50:50.

-DingDing Input-
Sry guys, but I'm gonna agree with KirinBlaze on this one. It's definitely a 50:50 matchup, IMO, mainly for reasons Kirin listed above.

As a side note: Snakes that try to DACUS link get owned...only if the link expects it and retaliates with a projectile or zair. From a LINKZONEload of personal experience, the absolute best way to fight a snake from a long range is with a wall of zairs and boomerangs. Both stop his grenades and his DACUS in their tracks, without having them explode. Bombs, on the other hand, may (and usually do) hurt you both if used on an approaching snake, and if snake throws a grenade in your face and you bomb it, then BAM 21 damage. D:

So, IMO, link's best weapons against snake are zair, jab cancel, smashes and rang. Snake's best weapons against link are grenade spam, unexpected DACUS, grabs and tilts. Overall, as long as Link is at a distance where he can effectively space with zair and rangs, he has the advantage. Only if the snake gets close and is on the ground does link have a major problem.

Granted, Snake with proper DI lives forever, but Link with proper DI can too (though not QUITE as long), but is actually a bit harder to gimp. As long as the Link knows the matchup well and can DI, it's definitely around a 50:50 matchup.

 

[Yikarur]

"* All projectiles stop his best approach, his DAC or Mortar Slide"

stop playing online, Snake doesn't approach with DAC lol

 

[phi1ny3]

I was about to say, what snake uses DACUS to approach? It's fast but... during it's slide nearly any move can knock him out of it...

Mediocre recovery? I can see Link juggling him after he falls down (although that'll be as hard for Link as any other char minus Marth or MK), but if you're punishing him from cypher, he's doing it wrong.

Some of his points are pretty good, I can see Link possibly outcamping Snake, but he really underestimates grenades as a pressure tool. For example, "grenade countering" could help snake in several scenarios that person stated when snake's up close to Link. I can see him outperforming some other lower tier chars, but I don't know about it being 50:50 (just my opinion, but still).

 

[Laem]

on a slightly more serious note then i guess

Since when?

Snake outspeeds, overpowers, outranges, recovers better, has better projectiles, survives much longer, and can gimp Link with a simple bthrow to bair. Remind me why this is close to even?

do not underestimate link.

as for that summary, it appears kind of outdated to me. how old is it?
imo the biggest thing link has in the matchup is the advantage in a neutral position. and thats big.

 

[HeroMystic]

^It's from AIB, I believe from early 2009.

Some of the points are pretty "meh" to me myself. Link's Z-air can be beaten by Snake crawling, but Link can still space and outcamp him.

I'd go with more 60:40 Snake, though 55:45 is arguable.

Also, most of the stuff comes from the Deva vs DSF match, in which Deva played that match ****-near perfectly. It's from 2008 though.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

^It's from AIB, I believe from early 2009.

Some of the points are pretty "meh" to me myself. Link's Z-air can be beaten by Snake crawling, but Link can still space and outcamp him.

I'd go with more 60:40 Snake, though 55:45 is arguable.

Also, most of the stuff comes from the Deva vs DSF match, in which Deva played that match ****-near perfectly. It's from 2008 though.

Yea and then Deva got 3 stocked Twice at Genesis by Ally, matchup isn't close to even.