The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Conviction]

I'm sorry, the correct answer was Fox.

Fox.

Lol what son?

Anyways I'm gonna go with the Falco main. He said MK has the tools to easily gimp Falco. But it doesn't happen often. Contradicting yes but from the mouth of the horse.

 

[HeroMystic]

Fix'd for accuracy

Touche` on Ivy, but I think Ganon is borderline like Ike.

 

[Conviction]

What about Zelda?

 

[HeroMystic]

Falco Syndrome.

 

[YagamiLight]

Ganon's recovery isn't that much worse than Ike's, anyway. I'm doing Ike no favors by comparing him to Ganondorf but the recoveries are fairly similar in execution. "If you get to the right place, you probably made it back." is an easy way to put it, I'd say. Ganondorf's recovery just lacks all of the nifty features that Ike's has that makes it worse. Such as, for example, the "projectile" deterrence, the 20 frames of super armor, the actual danger of being hit by the move, the ability to roll up ledges with it and the lack of RCO lag. Distancewise they really aren't different considering both Ganondorf and Ike have pretty much the exact same double jump and fall speed (with the main recovery factors that are different being Ike's better airspeed and airdodge recovery time).

tl:dr I just compared my character to Ganondorf.

 

[DoonKoon]

lol ganon has the worst recovery, how's it borderline?

he flipping gets SPIKED and hit out of it

 

[Conviction]

That ain't Falco.

 

[HeroMystic]

lol ganon has the worst recovery, how's it borderline?

he flipping gets SPIKED and hit out of it

As does every other recovery not named Metaknight. Actually, Metaknight can get hit and spiked out of it too.

The safety of recoveries are judged by how much options and margin of error you have, and a top level of play honestly players are skilled enough to not get gimped easily.

Btw, Ganon doesn't have the worst recovery.

 

[Steeler]

tl:dr I just compared my character to Ganondorf.

honestly, light, the two characters aren't all that different.

 

[YagamiLight]

honestly, light, the two characters aren't all that different.

They really aren't much different at all. From a design aspect you can tell that they were creating them along the same path (slow movement speed, almost identical jump and fall speed parameters, slow attack speed, extremely high knockback / damage output, heavy / tall, etc).

I don't necessarily think that's a poor design path for a character either, Ganon's just missing some of the key stuff Ike got (see: sword and jab) that would have made him better.

 

[Steeler]

nah he just needed something to help him with moves too fast for him to deal with, like SA ftilt (which is awesome to play with, might i add)

 

[Browny]

Shield -> Spotdodge.

According to EY's snake data it start's on frame 4 and ends on frame 32. According to SuSa's data regarding block and hitstun he found Ftilt on shields does 2 frames of shieldstun and 6 frames of hitlag. Most characters spotdodges last 25 frames.

Any 2nd ftilt hit attempt will be missed in the frames of the spotdodge. And spotdodge will end before 1st hit of ftilt is over with. The frame advantage here turns out in favor of the defender, but is still fairly neutral.

It might be safe, but it is still fairly bad if the best it can do is end up neutral.

Bahahahaha, BBR fails ag--- wait a minute

Heres an idea, stfu about frame data because you think is soooo simple and humans have a reaction time of 0 frames, actually PLAY the game, and then come back and tell us how bad snakes ftilt is. Pure theorycraft at its worst right here.

 

[Deleted member]

Your credibility just sunk faster then the Titanic when watching the movie in 4x Fast Forwards.

LOL LOOK WHOS TALKING.
Like honestly, you should take a break from this thread.
Its not a minor mistake you made and heres why:
This character you have been preaching needs to move down for like 6 months. FIrstly, you obviously had never seen a PT play ever, especailly a decent one.
SEcondly, you had never stuck with the same pokemon for 2 minues more than once in brawls career.
Idk

 

[Arcade]

I think the most ridiculous thing is not knowing what order the Pokemon switch in. THAT will kill your credibility.

 

[phi1ny3]

Rage thread is rage:
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I think everyone's gotta steam off just a little.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

LOL LOOK WHOS TALKING.
Like honestly, you should take a break from this thread.
Its not a minor mistake you made and heres why:
This character you have been preaching needs to move down for like 6 months. FIrstly, you obviously had never seen a PT play ever, especailly a decent one.
SEcondly, you had never stuck with the same pokemon for 2 minues more than once in brawls career.
Idk

Yes, I have seen a PT play. Heck, I played against one in the first tournament I went again in the pools. Don't remember the guy's name.

Actually, I have stuck with the same pokemon for more than two minutes in my Brawl career. Ike was always my main: PT was one of the first secondaries I experimented with. And I've always said I love Charizard, and that if he was his own character I would secondary him. Problem is I hate Ivy, and Squirtle is 'meh' to me. I generally speaking avoid faster characters as they don't fit my playing style well. Falcon for some odd reason works, go figure.

I should also point out: I was initially in favor of PT rising. I said he was underrated. I just feel he was raised too far, without enough variables checked off. Pit now has the same problem, and Ness to a lessor extent.

Thirdly: In case you haven't noticed, I've been poking at my own blunder the last set of posts in this topic. Yes, I messed up twice in my theory. One, as I have explained multiple times now was due to a mistake I made during my times deciding if I would secondary PT or not. And frankly: it looked correct, I mentioned it several times prior (just not in such plain wording), nobody called me out on it for months. The other mistake was effectively a brain fart. I didn't feel like double checking the order of the pokemon, gambled, failed.

And now not only you attempting to call me out rather late, with things already mentioned and explained several times, which anyone who had bothered to read the topic would have noticed, you made random conclusions without any proof behind them.

Basically: welcome to the club of screw-ups in the tier list topic, please take off your shoes at the door and don't forget to fill out the new member card.

 

[Shaya]

Wtf guys...

Marths fsmash is actually QUITE GOOD.
Saying its only good through mindgaming people into it is silly. And isnt adum the man who believes mindgame potential should be apart of match up ratios?
The move will on average be hitting you on frame 11 and 12. It has, for its start up, one of the best ranges in the game and covers a LARGE amount of area in front of him.
Also MKs fsmash is bull, after a shield drop I dont think many characters actually have a move long ranged enough and fast enough to punish. I think after a shield drop its only -4... Characters werent designed to punish one of the most DISJOINTED moves in the game.
The shield knock of it at around 2/3rds of its range or more pushes most characters too far away for immediate oos options (including shield drop + attack).

If snake hits your shield with ftilt1 you have 7 frames to punish, as if he is buffering the second hit properly he will hit you on the 8th frame.
Meaning characters like Diddy -can- own that stuff.
And since when does ZSS have an 8 frame tether grab?

 

[Browny]

You know the titanic actually took an extremely long time to sink lol... even at 4x speed thats pretty slow

 

[Chuee]

And since when does ZSS have an 8 frame tether grab?

He was probably talking about 2nd hit Ftilt.

 

[Deleted member]

Niddo im playin i just thought it was funny that you were telling someone their credibility dropped after that.

I didnt make any assumptions, how can u second PT and not understand his fundemental mechanics=P

Im over it tho lolz

 

[Kewkky]

ZSS can shieldgrab Snake's 2nd ftilt hit. Trufax!


... But that's about it with ZSS's grabs and Snake's ftilt.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wtf guys...

Marths fsmash is actually QUITE GOOD.
Saying its only good through mindgaming people into it is silly. And isnt adum the man who believes mindgame potential should be apart of match up ratios?
The move will on average be hitting you on frame 11 and 12. It has, for its start up, one of the best ranges in the game and covers a LARGE amount of area in front of him.

Eh, I think you're overrating it, don't get me wrong, it's useful, but the fact that you can't use it in the neutral position without practically begging to get punished hard reduces it's usefulness considerably. So does the extremely high endlag.


You can trap with it, and it does beat a lot of things, but it's disadvantages are enough that usually marth has better options.



Also, I don't think you understand what I mean conceptually, mindgames potential is more akin to mix-up potential, it measures odds of beating your opponent's option at any given time based on weighted random choice, and then adjusting that by the effectiveness of the punishment.

 

[phi1ny3]

lol MK fsmash is so funny.

Out of all these moves that no human could ever hope to react to, this move moves like mollllaaaaaaasssessss but is so good when the hitbox comes out, very good defensive wise. However, it's slow enough to where if they pull it out at the wrong time (then again, good MKs almost never do this lol) you have like overhyped reflexes from dealing with his other moves and you can rush in and punish before it comes out lolol. Too bad this is a rarity, as any good MK does this only in situations he can afford to use it in.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Most things involving MK are bull, lol.

 

[Browny]

Also, I don't think you understand what I mean conceptually, mindgames potential is more akin to mix-up potential, it measures odds of beating your opponent's option at any given time based on weighted random choice, and then adjusting that by the effectiveness of the punishment.

You know, using fancy words doesnt change the fact that you explained absolutely nothing here. Its obvious how one would attempt to measure the effectiveness of mindgames, but you forget it involves making the ridiculous assumption about how anyone could possibly accurately weigh these choices. Youre gonna need A LOT more than pretentious typing to convince anyone here you can quantify mindgame potential.

 

[Shaya]

And really... an 11 frame move is fast enough to beat out most peoples reaction times.
Its one of the few moves in the game that is actually long ranged enough and fast enough (on start up) to punish just about any preconceived whiffs. Including MKs fsmash and ftilts. Including stutter steps makes it possible for Marth to punish Lucarios fsmash whiffs and I believe d3s ftilt whiffs as well.
The added fact you can stutter step from it easily means you can proactively adjust spacing to it, people should realise how amazing this actually is on a move that comes out that fast. Really, stutter stepping backwards before a punishing/prediction fsmash is GOLD; people naturally space themselves within tipper range... marths full stutter step is like half the length of his sword... (meaning for 1-5 extra frames of start up you are feasibly quintupling [is this a word?] his tipper range). Near max range fsmash is REALLY HARD for most characters to punish on block too. Some MARTHS WILL use fsmash as shield pressure (especially after initial shield push back from a ff aerial).

Marth and Falco probably have the best stutter step fsmashes in high tier. Both have great fox trots.

 

[Kitamerby]

Your credibility just sunk faster then the Titanic when watching the movie in 4x Fast Forwards.

If you speed up the Titanic x4 it still takes an hour, btw.

 

[Browny]

Fsmash is so wifi/2008 shaya

 

[Kitamerby]

Near max range fsmash is REALLY HARD for most characters to punish on block too. Some MARTHS WILL use fsmash as shield pressure (especially after initial shield push back from a ff aerial).

Shield advantage: -40

-40

-40

-40

What in the flying **** are you smoking and where can I get some?

 

[Shaya]

The shield knockback on a tipper fsmash is quite large.
Seriously.

And I wasnt referencing tipper fsmash on the shield pressure part

Literal numbers of frame disadvantages and what not ARE DEFINITELY not the only factors that are apart of hitting someones shield.
Get more knowledgeable about the game guys :\

 

[Dark.Pch]

Shaya, know about frames and your options from it is knowing how this game works. Your opponet has 40 framesto do somthing after a tipper Fsmash. Now depending is distance between you and the enemy and the range on the enemies attacks, this can all depend on if marth can be punished or not.

Hit: 10
End: 49
Shield Stun: 13
~Shield Hit Lag: 6
ADVANTAGE: -32
Tipper Shield Stun: 16
~Shield Hit Lag: 17
ADVANTAGE: -40

 

[Shaya]

I am very well aware of frame data DP.

Now depending is distance between you and the enemy and the range on the enemies attacks, this can all depend on if marth can be punished or not.

Exactly. Marths fsmash range + shield knockback from a 19.95 damage move [under normal conditions] =
No shield grab (I do not believe any character can shield grab this, tether or not). And youd be surprised how many idiots would try, pretty much completely negating their advantage (and remember, Marths stutter step is about half the length of his sword, the confusion of sudden distance change from what would be an untippered fsmash to a tippered one stuffs people up )
-
So -33
How many characters have a move that hits as far as marths fsmash when including shield knockback?
I am reasonably sure wolfs fsmash doesnt cover the distance from an immediate shield drop. Diddy can glide toss forward a banana throw but he cant cover the distance himself after Marth trips.
So in other words to cover the distance, most characters are required to dash. In most match ups dash grabs and dash attacks arent too detrimental. Most characters do not have good dash options.
Pretty much Meta Knights stupid forward roll and amazing dash grab, some dacus characters (sheik, falco, snake, ...), and Marth himself (dash to DB...) are the ones that a tipper fsmash on shield is actually is bad for.
I do not believe a character like Dedede, can reliably shield drop and dash attack.

-

DP, know things about the game at a deeper level than you do. Frame data to consider options is artificial when it doesnt consider range, disjoints, animations (as in hurtbox extensions from the move as it hits returning to a neutral state before IASA frames), shield knock back (based on damage) and other things, such as cinematic DI.
A lot of strong moves with high damage incur a lot of shield hit lag, which is feasible for a character to at least get in one input of shield DI to negate a good amount of their shield knock back. Marths tipper fsmash has cinematic hit lag, meaning you cant shield di (or SDI the actual hit) at all.
THE MORE YOU KNOW DP.

 

[Browny]

easy to test...

I'm quite certain wolfs fmsash can easily punish marths fsmash though lol

 

[<π]

worst case he (wolf) can walk into range before doing it.

sheik MK snake and a few others can prob dash attack it pretty easily as well.

 

[HeroMystic]

They really aren't much different at all. From a design aspect you can tell that they were creating them along the same path (slow movement speed, almost identical jump and fall speed parameters, slow attack speed, extremely high knockback / damage output, heavy / tall, etc).

I don't necessarily think that's a poor design path for a character either, Ganon's just missing some of the key stuff Ike got (see: sword and jab) that would have made him better.

It's actually pretty common among many characters. Some of the low-mid tiers are comparable to the high-top tiers rather easily.

Ganon -> Ike
Link -> Snake
Jiggs -> Wario (Kinda)
Mario -> Falco
Marth -> Metaknight

@Shaya: You trollin'. Powershield exists, Spotdodge is better than shielding however, and Mario's F-Smash can punish this shielding or not. The only thing you need is a ranged attack that occurs within 40 to 33 frames. If Spotdodged take an estimated guess of frames, but a lot of characters can punish Marth's F-Smash after a spotdodge.

 

[Shaya]

Punish it with something that is actually problematic to Marth?
Sheiks dash attack isnt killing me :\

And throwing out the term power shield is more of a troll. Because in the world of low level theory craft you have 40 frames to punish the move, meaning fsmash from ike time, right? no not really. As I showed at the end of my last post, there is a lot more depth to punishment options than just basic frame data.

Spot dodging cuts off some of the shield knockback (still a reasonable amount occurs during shield stun), I dont think the 25 frame sacrifice (most characters) would make punishing it easier.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You know the titanic actually took an extremely long time to sink lol... even at 4x speed thats pretty slow

Well, he did have a wall of text in front of that line. >_> <_<

@Socks: Sarcasm/jokes don't work over the internet well at all dude. ;_;

 

[HeroMystic]

And throwing out the term power shield is more of a troll. Because in the world of low level theory craft you have 40 frames to punish the move, meaning fsmash from ike time, right? no not really. As I showed at the end of my last post, there is a lot more depth to punishment options than just basic frame data.

Spot dodging cuts off some of the shield knockback (still a reasonable amount occurs during shield stun), I dont think the 25 frame sacrifice (most characters) would make punishing it easier.

I'm talking from reality because my most battled MU after Diddy happens to be Marth. This isn't theorycraft, this just happens to be what I do. Powershielding doesn't induce knockback, and spotdoding the attack (not shield -> spotdodge) allows for quick attacks to be used. It's like people forget spotdodge can actually have applications on it's own.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Bahahahaha, BBR fails ag--- wait a minute

Heres an idea, stfu about frame data because you think is soooo simple and humans have a reaction time of 0 frames, actually PLAY the game, and then come back and tell us how bad snakes ftilt is. Pure theorycraft at its worst right here.

please never stop trolling/being awesome

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well, a guessing game was never much fun for anyone, even snake

Not much of a guessing game. The snake will do his ftilt normally. If he sees you shield the spotdodge the second hit the next itme he does it he will delay the second hit.

Basically it establishes that there is a direct correlation, if you want further explanation, ask specific questions, I can answer them.

A direct correlation between what?