The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Vermy]

ZSS' fsmash outranges Mario's reverse fsmash by, like, a lot. But it sucks, so it doesn't matter.

As does Ivysaur's iirc.

 

[hotgarbage]

What I mean is that by not a significant range difference, it really doesn't change much what important moves you can punish just in terms outranging stuff, since the idea is that those moves basically work best for punishing anticipated commitment to a move that doesn't have as much range. Although Mario's F-smash has an obvious advantage in speed and reward.

Ah, ok; I'd agree with that.

Okay to clarify.

Stutterstepping does NOT increase your range.
ALl it does is "shift" you forward before you perform the attack.
So in truth, you're not gaining much range.

Performing a dash BEFORE you stutterstep places you a good distance closer than if you simply stutterstep.
All dash's can be canceled into nearly any attack (except those involving down direction) during the initial frames.
Hence why Sonic can perform his stutterstep and have it punish Marth even with the pushback

@____@

Ok I'm confused now. I thought that by definition all stutterstepping is is interrupting your initial dash with an attack; by doing so giving said attack "more range"?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ah, ok; I'd agree with that.


@____@

Ok I'm confused now. I thought that by definition all stutterstepping is is interrupting your initial dash with an attack; and by doing so giving said attack "more range"?

No.
Stutterstepping in itself is when you perform a reverse Fsmash wit a character who "leans" back, causing them to shift forward.

 

[HeroMystic]

Okay to clarify.

Stutterstepping does NOT increase your range.
ALl it does is "shift" you forward before you perform the attack.
So in truth, you're not gaining much range.

Performing a dash BEFORE you stutterstep places you a good distance closer than if you simply stutterstep.
All dash's can be canceled into nearly any attack (except those involving down direction) during the initial frames.
Hence why Sonic can perform his stutterstep and have it punish Marth even with the pushback

Yes.

As does Ivysaur's iirc.

No.

Ah, ok; I'd agree with that.


@____@

Ok I'm confused now. I thought that by definition all stutterstepping is is interrupting your initial dash with an attack; by doing so giving said attack "more range"?

No, those are just dashing into pivot smashes.

No.
Stutterstepping in itself is when you perform a reverse Fsmash wit a character who "leans" back, causing them to shift forward.

Yes.

To clarify a bit more, Stutterstepping is simply turning around, then F-Smashing in the opposite direction. Dashing into Pivot(Reverse) Smashes also applies stutter-stepping, but only three characters gain a "range boost"(Pushing your character forward) out of it. Mario, Sonic, and Ganondorf are example of characters who have these types of Reverse F-Smashes. Falcon does too, though his is just the regular F-Smash animation itself.

For even more clarity, watch this video.

 

[hotgarbage]

Ooooook, thanks for clearing that up you two.

Looking around the boards/youtube though it looks like I'm not the only one was confused...... I think I'll forgo these terms and just use "reverse fsmash" and "fsmash canceled dash" (or something <___>) from now on .

 

[Kewkky]

Ooooook, thanks for clearing that up you two.

Looking around the boards/youtube though it looks like I'm not the only one was confused...... I think I'll forgo these terms and just use "reverse fsmash" and "fsmash canceled dash" (or something <___>) from now on .

I know how terms can be a hassle, believe me... People in my area used to argue that B-reversal and wavebouncing are the same thing and the contrary... 'Who cares!' now that I think about it! The only difference is that you add an extra input before the actual tech is done!

Heck, I still have problems understanding which is which: lightstepping and telestepping... For all I know they're the same thing.

 

[HeroMystic]

Funny part is, Stutter-Stepping has actually been used as a term for at least three things, but the Mario/Sonic/Ganon boards have been using the term ever since March 2008.

Not like it matters though. Everyone should know this by now.

 

[Chaos Draka]

A decent list....

My Mains are Meta Knight, Fox, Snake, Lucario, and Falcon. I thought that they were fairly placed in their tiers.

 

[Shaya]

TBH, who cares about range.
I only care about disjoints :3

Mario can do some extra 20 frame start up action to increase how far the attack reaches from an initial hurtbox point, but, my retreating neutral air will still win :3

 

[<π]

If you are getting punish by Mario's fsmash you are fighting Mario's wrong.

EDIT:
I should elaborate...
you shouldn't be doing moves laggy enough to be punished by mario's fsmash, you should be spacing your moves so that either you don't mis when they run back or so that if you do miss you are out of range. or using moves that have enough sheild advantage to avoid fsmash punishes. Shaya mentioned moves like marth's nair.

mario's fsmash is neat, but it fails in comparison to much better kill moves like snakes utilt or MKs dsmash, since even these moves can be avoided you can understand why Mario's fsmash just has too much start up time to ever be anything than a punisher, for poorly spaced or just horriblely laggy moves.

If the ops come up by all means stutter step away, but in anyone experince with the match up you won't see many fsmashes landing I'd imagine, especially at kill percents.

 

[Shaya]

Well because of its tricks in gaining stupendous amounts of range, it can be quite useful in various ways.
Disjoints are amazing for safety.
Range is amazing for punishment.
As long as Mario can stay out of their opponents range and have their fsmash come out before the IASA of the opponents move (and cover the range with the magic) than its super. At a theory crafting level.

But yeah, disjoints are broken.

 

[Kitamerby]

Why the hell are you even arguing this.

Lucario's Fsmash ***** all of the above anyways. Let's talk about something that actually works now. =D

 

[Shaya]

Marths nair says hello to lucarios fsmash.

 

[Browny]

That's what they all say.

Then they wake up

Dead

 

[HeroMystic]

If you are getting punish by Mario's fsmash you are fighting Mario's wrong.

Looks like 99% of the Smash community fights Mario wrong.

Hello Theory-Crafting, I'd like for you to meet reality and mix-ups.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Looks like 99% of the Smash community fights Mario wrong.

Hello Theory-Crafting, I'd like for you to meet reality and mix-ups.

If that was the case he'd win more...opps.....

 

[HeroMystic]

Thank you for that lovely straw-man.

People saying something should never hit by punishment is much like saying people should never get hit by Ike's F-Smash. It shouldn't happen, but it still does. Never say never, it just sets you up for failure.

Human behavior will always rule out any type of theory.

 

[Conviction]

Thank you for that lovely straw-man.

People saying something should never hit by punishment is much like saying people should never get hit by Ike's F-Smash. It shouldn't happen, but it still does. Never say never, it just sets you up for failure.

Human behavior will always rule out any type of theory.

Quote of the day.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lets go back to something that was said a while back that I didnt fully understand.

Marths tipper forward smash, when it hits, it does more damage and kb than a normal f smash. But it sounded like someone earlier said that when it hits a shield it actually does LESS shield stun and shield pushback. Is this true or did I just misread somebody?

 

[hotgarbage]

Marth's tipper fsmash actually has MORE shield stun and shield pushback, but despite that ends up being more disadvantaged frame-wise than his non-tippered fsmash.

This is because of the difference in hitlag between the two.

For the tippered fsmash Marth suffers a lot of hitlag... but his opponent really doesn't. This results in Marth chill'n in freeze frames while his opponent is busy getting out of shield stun etc. The opposite is true for his non-tippered fsmash. Now his opponent is stuck in freeze frames while Marth's recovering from the lag of the attack.

In the end this difference in "shield hitlag differential" is large enough to cause his tippered fsmash to be more disadvantaged than his non-tippered. IIRC this applies to all of his tipper moves.


*themoreyouknow.jpg*

 

[da K.I.D.]

ahhhhh, this makes sence, and I can kinda remember this happening when I play people but I never actually thought about the implications of it.

appreciate the explanation. always helps to know more about the characters.

 

[<π]

Thank you for that lovely straw-man.

People saying something should never hit by punishment is much like saying people should never get hit by Ike's F-Smash. It shouldn't happen, but it still does. Never say never, it just sets you up for failure.

Human behavior will always rule out any type of theory.

I didn't say never.

 

[stingers]

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Thank you for that lovely straw-man.

People saying something should never hit by punishment is much like saying people should never get hit by Ike's F-Smash. It shouldn't happen, but it still does. Never say never, it just sets you up for failure.

Human behavior will always rule out any type of theory.

I will never lose to an Ike. There's nothing he can do to even kill me, *lasers, sideb, repeat*
EDIT:stingers Oli should go up

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I will never lose to an Ike. There's nothing he can do to even kill me, *lasers, sideb, repeat*

*planks*

*grabs Falco by ledge for guaranteed walk-off Fair*

*obviously, not both at the same time*

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

*planks*

*grabs Falco by ledge for guaranteed walk-off Fair*

*obviously, not both at the same time*

Out of about 20 matches playing an Ike I do no recall any of them grabbing me by ledge. Grabbing me is hard cause I never have to be near you. Try Again...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

1) Which Ike?
2) You have to be near me to kill me. Lasers ain't going to kill me, and it will be a long time before a phantom can kill. You'll also have to approach me eventually if I get to the ledge without taking any damage and start planking. Or if I get to say, to the top platform of BF. Your lasers aren't going to be hitting me there very well. There is also the fact that if you want to go for the CG, you have to get right up in my face. You get the idea: eventually, you will be near the Ike, for one reason or another.
3) Obviously, Falcos can lose to Ikes, as it's happened before. Arty has lost to San before after all, Ninjalink has beaten a Falco, I believe Kirk has as well. There is more to the MU then you are letting on.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Marths nair says hello to lucarios fsmash.

That's not fair, marth's nair beats like everything.

lets go back to something that was said a while back that I didnt fully understand.

Marths tipper forward smash, when it hits, it does more damage and kb than a normal f smash. But it sounded like someone earlier said that when it hits a shield it actually does LESS shield stun and shield pushback. Is this true or did I just misread somebody?

Nah, it actually does more in both, but it has a lot more shield hitlag resulting in a net greater disadvantage on shield. This is because of the "epic hitlag" it gets.

Which also makes it much easier to DI and SDI, except for f-smash for the latter because it's hitlag is cinematic.

Thank you for that lovely straw-man.

People saying something should never hit by punishment is much like saying people should never get hit by Ike's F-Smash. It shouldn't happen, but it still does. Never say never, it just sets you up for failure.

Human behavior will always rule out any type of theory.

Lol

That's why your theory incorporates mix-up game, granted there are some moves that honestly will NEVER hit at the top of the metagame, simply because it (or it's set-up) beats no useful option of your opponent's, but that's really rare (even falcon's pawnch can be done off a powershielded ike downsmash).


Basically, you can determine what should hit and how often by recognizing what it beats and how often your opponent uses it.

Out of about 20 matches playing an Ike I do no recall any of them grabbing me by ledge. Grabbing me is hard cause I never have to be near you. Try Again...

He could just... you know, powershield you for 8 minutes. It's not like getting closer really helps him.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

2) You have to be near me to kill me. Lasers ain't going to kill me, and it will be a long time before a phantom can kill.

Technically you don't ever have to kill. :D

 

[dainbramage]

That's not fair

Exactly; it's nair.


/incredibly lame pun

 

[Dark.Pch]

That's not fair, marth's nair beats like everything.

Peach's Fair can beat his Nair.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

1) Which Ike?
2) You have to be near me to kill me. Lasers ain't going to kill me, and it will be a long time before a phantom can kill. You'll also have to approach me eventually if I get to the ledge without taking any damage and start planking. Or if I get to say, to the top platform of BF. Your lasers aren't going to be hitting me there very well. There is also the fact that if you want to go for the CG, you have to get right up in my face. You get the idea: eventually, you will be near the Ike, for one reason or another.
3) Obviously, Falcos can lose to Ikes, as it's happened before. Arty has lost to San before after all, Ninjalink has beaten a Falco, I believe Kirk has as well. There is more to the MU then you are letting on.

I approach you to kill you (CG to spike to tech chase, not instant) when you've made your mistake.

And there's no use in planking when you haven't hit me yet.

@Terios, exactly.
@adum, he STILL has to hit me first to win it. His jab is good and all but there's a 85% chance I already have the % lead. If DEHF lost to an Ike then DEHF is still good, but I'm saying me personally would not be losing to Ike.

 

[HeroMystic]

That's why your theory incorporates mix-up game, granted there are some moves that honestly will NEVER hit at the top of the metagame, simply because it (or it's set-up) beats no useful option of your opponent's, but that's really rare (even falcon's pawnch can be done off a powershielded ike downsmash).


Basically, you can determine what should hit and how often by recognizing what it beats and how often your opponent uses it.

I don't even know if you're opposing my point or not. You basically said exactly what I said.

Though the bolded is kinda funny because it plays right into human behavior. So what was the point of this response?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't even know if you're opposing my point or not. You basically said exactly what I said.

Though the bolded is kinda funny because it plays right into human behavior. So what was the point of this response?

I'm saying theorycraft is useful when done right.


The "how often your opponent uses it" was more based on optimization, if your opponent should use a move it beats more often, then it's a useful option.


Basically, with proper theorycraft, you can predict average human behavior, or predict what human behavior should be (aka top of the metagame), both of which are relevant.

edit:

Peach's Fair can beat his Nair.

Depends on a number of factors IIRC but true.

@adum, he STILL has to hit me first to win it. His jab is good and all but there's a 85% chance I already have the % lead. If DEHF lost to an Ike then DEHF is still good, but I'm saying me personally would not be losing to Ike.

That assumes he's playing to win as opposed to playing to not lose. With consistent powershielding, except for extremely rare it's gonna be a stalemate until somebody does something.

 

[Kewkky]

Basically, with proper theorycraft, you can predict average human behavior, or predict what human behavior should be (aka top of the metagame), both of which are relevant.

This is why we have so many "high level mains" and few "top level mains". Usually players think that they need to better their skill by playing more with their character, playing different people and playstyles, learning how to use different characters for harder MUs... When the problem has always been the fact that they haven't given the "theory" side of matches enough time. Tech skill and reaction can take you far, but knowing when to use what and what to use when, knowing why X attack beats Y attack instead of remaining in the dark and not questioning anything, and finding out things your opponent can do to your character and under what circumstances (as well as the vice-versa version) are all extremely important theoretical topics that could help boost your tourney performance a lot. (yes, people, start asking the WHYs instead of the WHO DISCOVEREDs!)

ADHD wasn't just born a top player, you know. Nor was Ally or M2K. Sometimes they don't even play for long periods of time, and they still place extremely well! Obviously physical practice isn't what's helping them place, but what they have learned through analysis of their characters, as well as their opponents'. You don't need to know the technical name of every AT there is to be known in a game, nor know how to perform every single one. All you need to know is what you MUST know, as well as the WHYs and WHATs when you lose and have the patience to find and eradicate the problem.


Sometimes character placing helps, so maining MK MIGHT help you place better... But ever wonder why so many MK mains can't make it to the top 3 in their local tourneys? Characters aren't the key to victory, they're PARTS of the key. They're still missing the important "theoretical" side of the game/matches... Have you guys ever tried paying attention to what all of your opponents share? You know, every player gets more defensive the more % they have... And I'm sure there's a number of other small observations to be done that encompass nearly every player... So it's not that you don't have what it takes to win tourneys, it's that you just don't make yourself to be a better player than what you think you are. THEORY, people, THEORY! (just make sure to not play the "super theory card", where you say you can shieldgrab an MK out of a grounded upB with a tether grab when well-timed or something, that's just taking theory too far).



tl;dr: lrn2theory doods

 

[HeroMystic]

Kewkky, you make too many big posts. =|

I'm saying theorycraft is useful when done right.


The "how often your opponent uses it" was more based on optimization, if your opponent should use a move it beats more often, then it's a useful option.


Basically, with proper theorycraft, you can predict average human behavior, or predict what human behavior should be (aka top of the metagame), both of which are relevant.

Looks like we're in agreement then.

 

[Kewkky]

Sorry HeroMystic, whenever I start writing something I can't stop until I feel I conveyed the message properly... I don't want any holes in my posts.

 

[Shaya]

Marths nair outdisjoints peaches fair.
<3

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Sorry HeroMystic, whenever I start writing something I can't stop until I feel I conveyed the message properly... I don't want any holes in my posts.

Just be careful about that. Trying to add too much can sometimes distract from the point.

Edit: What does tl;dr mean and what do we all think about Wolf. He hardly ever gets any attention.

 

[<π]

I like Kewkky's post.

People put way~ too much emphasis on tech skill and character. Way more of it is player versus player than it is character versus character I think.