The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[Barge]

Did the site go down for a few minutes?

Anyways, tier lists are as stated in the OP. Not definite outcomes of every single match.
And this is an early version.

 

[Vorguen]

Truthfully, does it really matter? Tier list are only suggestion. If you play Captain Falcon really well and prove he is not the worse, it may not change the tier list.

It's all hypothetical. Take it or leave. Or just ignore it.

Yeah that was exactly my point, that it does not really matter.

My arguments were that if you CARE about your characters placement in a tier list, well there will be more so you can start trying to make your character look better in the tournament scene.

And my second argument as to it not mattering was that a character's placement isn't going to change how good he is, so again, it doesn't matter.

Play who makes you happy.

I don't know why you are trying to refute me if you basicaly said what I was trying to point out to begin with, lol.

 

[Chis]

Did the site go down for a few minutes?

Yep. That's the power of a tier list release.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Sonic players need to just step it up. When the game first come out, everyone thought Peach was garbage. Lots of people actually putting her in bottom and low tier. Instead of complaining I stepped it up and placed at large tournaments and traveled and represented my character, as did some other peaches. Stop your whining and go win more and represent better yourself if it bugs you so much, sweet merciful mother of everything...

 

[Zylar]

Someone said this is better than watching TV shows, and I agree.

 

[Browny]

This post is win. I agree completely with everything said in it.

@ and spadefox as well

You gotta see where im coming from...

I've done my fair share of debating on these forums and I can deal with people making crazy assumptions etc. But I can not stand people who refute arguments with no reasons. Its even more unbelievable that the people who do this are the ones in charge of it all.

Nothing sums it up better than the recent discussions in the rankings thread. While harmlessly debating Sonic's results, we get told by sbr members that the only reason Sonic has any points is because millions of people play him in tourneys. So I can argue this with PROOF that there is actually less Sonic's placing high than almost every other mid-tier or higher character. Debating is fun when we can back up our points.

Only to be shot down again by the claim that Sonic's only win scrub tourneys (which is impossible at how many points he earsn per placing which implies said tourneys have moderate amount of entrants or large entry fees). If thats not a blatant insult, what is?

How can I deal with this? Sonic mains debate thier points on forums which get refuted by constant claims of low priority and we have to settle for disadvantaged matchups against almost every single character. Then when told to prove our points where it counts, in tourneys, we get our points refuted again by claims of scrub tourneys. Both times Sonic mains do what is right, both times SBR members completely ignore and insult us.

Whats the point anymore? we cant win. Why should I respect them when they cant even have a simple argument without it degenerating into insults against sonic mains.


Good argument
Sonic is low tier because in high level play, despite all his available options, the enemy usually has effective ways of dealing with all of these through simply abusing high priority defensive attacks

Bad (SBR) reasoning
Sonic is low because he is bad and not tourney viable

@ edrees
Fine we will go win more, we still do and have for a while. ALL that we ask in return is that SBR members can have the decency to acknowledge said results. you say represent yourself better, now for the sake of the sbr imo, would you be able to provide a proper argument as to how Sonic mains have not been representing as well as any of the 10 characters immediately above him?

 

[bigman40]

Whats the point anymore? we cant win. Why should I respect them when they cant even have a simple argument without it degenerating into insults against sonic mains

Welcome to the reason why I stopped caring what most of people's opinions are. The main reason why I became a lurker more than posting anymore. Nothing sensible comes out of debating anymore.

 

[AgentJGV]

i truely think ganon and falcon are being underestimated but we'll see where this goes. After all its all how you play the game.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic players need to just step it up. When the game first come out, everyone thought Peach was garbage. Lots of people actually putting her in bottom and low tier. Instead of complaining I stepped it up and placed at large tournaments and traveled and represented my character, as did some other peaches. Stop your whining and go win more and represent better yourself if it bugs you so much, sweet merciful mother of everything...

Sonic did do a bit better and it was brushed off as a result of popularity which is a flawed argument.
You have characters who have been performing much worse and are placed several spots higher than him in spite of their worse performance.

Why do Sonic mainers have to improve in their tournament placements in order to move up, while characters such as Bowser who are doing much worse than Sonic, are being placed higher than him and have yet to show significant improvement in their placings?

it sees contradictory that it is being demanded that sonic mainers do better while Bowser mains do not and yet their characters gets placed higher.

I wouldn't mind Sonic's placement if it things matched up rather than seeming to be based on opinion.

 

[Evenkor]

Someone said this is better than watching TV shows, and I agree.

I agree, more realistic drama than you ever see on TV anymore.
Anyhow, I'm sad to see my two previous mains, Wolf and Yoshi, drop so much - but then again, that's probably why I switched to Lucariio (before the Tier List 2.0 came out, of course. ). As for him, I wish he didn't drop, but he's still in the top 10, at least (or 11 - darn you Olimar!!)

 

[Yonder]

Disappointed with Luigi's location...I think he has a lot of potential, especially with all of his ISJR.

Agreed. But sadly, no one's representing him (Except slightly Boss)

 

[Dun Feed the Trolls]

Tourney ***s

 

[ChronoPenguin]

The answer is simple. Good falco's consistently place high in tournaments that matter. I'm talking about regional tournaments that involve players from multiple regions, where top level players from several regions actually show up. Falco has shown to do well in these, so we look at his tournament results, and go, whoa, nicely done Falco. When Sonic places, he's beating someone's Pokemon trainer, or a player who doesn't place very well in real serious tournaments. I took a look at 95% of Sonic's placements and I didn't recognize many real worthwhile notable players besides Inui one time in his life losing to a Sonic. That's how I interpreted the results and thats how a few other SBR members did as well. Many thought Sonic was better than this, but fortunately it's based on a vote and majority rules.

When I voted on the tier list, I almost ignored low level matches, results and matchups. I took the game at its highest possible level of play, which I've experienced a lot of travelling to three different regions. From my persepctive Sonic does not perform well at these higher level tournaments as much as he does overall when smaller tournaments are factored, and I personally ignored smaller tournaments when deciding upon tier lists because when it comes to judging the metagame at it's best, they are near worthless.

The second thing, and less important thing, I took a look at was the characters on papers and whether they meet the conditions I consider valuable for tournament play. Examples of such elements are ability to adapt and options. I consider the best characteres in the game to have the best ability to adapt and the best options of play in any given situation. Looking at it from a pencil and paper persepctive Falco's moveset gives him far far superior ability to adapt and have options as compared to Sonic. This type of analysis, of course, is only second to tournament results when deciding who are the best characters. Some characters get a bigger boost than others for being good on paper, and that's is NECESSARY because tournament results ARE indeed influenced by player skill at the tournament, popularity of character, what tournaments are reported, and many other factors that make it necessary to interpret tournament results and weed out wins and losses that do not matter as much.

I main AND win with Peach. I understand much more than the vast majority of people, when a character is good because people don't understand how to fight you, and when your character is actually good. There's alot of details and very subtle things I see that make a huge distinction between these two things. I can beat most MK's I play but it's solely because they MK playerse do not understand my character and do not understand the tools they have and how much easier it would be eto defeat me should they use the right tools they have. I do not actually have the tools to beat them if they understand this. And this is how I view Sonic in nearly every single matchup he has.

Hope that satisfies you.

ITT: Ignorance.
From everyone (well not everyone)
I will gladly include myself.
But im bring your *** with me into that category.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Sonic players need to just step it up. When the game first come out, everyone thought Peach was garbage. Lots of people actually putting her in bottom and low tier. Instead of complaining I stepped it up and placed at large tournaments and traveled and represented my character, as did some other peaches. Stop your whining and go win more and represent better yourself if it bugs you so much, sweet merciful mother of everything...

What is your citation for this?
Ankoku's list?
You forget that Sonic was in Bottom Tier while Peach wasn't at the start of the game?
You remember how the two things were
Falcon has low priority and Sonic has low priority.
Sonic mains have been proving themselves quite a bit.
As a Yoshi dude myself, I dont even comprehend this?
Step it up? They are RELATIVELY ( by that I mean in comparison to some people) kicking *** in the rankings.
While for instance, there are people lower than Sonic, who in the current metagame, are dragging their *** on the floor because they are doing poorly.

Anyways just wanted to add that in.
Now I want to move off the stupid blue hedgehog, and go to the green mutant lizard thingy with the big nose.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yoshi is ****ing awesome. Especially the blue one. FLYING IN THE SKY~

 

[Vorguen]

I agree, more realistic drama than you ever see on TV anymore.

LOL... Tierlist2drama4jerryspringer!

That post made me laugh pretty hard.


Tier lists change nothing!

 

[bigman40]

Yoshi is ****ing awesome. Especially the blue one. FLYING IN THE SKY~

haha. I <3 ShadowLink

 

[Chis]

Chis, do you have those quotes archieved or something? Like seriously... Even if some of those quotes are like months old... I would beat $5 that one of them has the same mindset to this day, or another SBR member has been swayed by another one of those fallacies.

It's sad, nobody takes the time to fully analyze Sonic for what he really is.

Nope. They maybe old but their opinions haven't changed according to this tier list. Or else we wouldn't be complaining.

 

[dark_Illusion_hokage]

Sonic has to work twice as hard to win matches as other characters that are above him have too.

Does he have the tools to win? Yes, but when it comes down to it...he doesn't have better tools than most characters.

A character that is built around baiting and punishing(i.e. Fox) is never going to be considered more than one of the worst characters.

He really has no special glitch with Brawls physics or move that sets him apart. Even with lower characters like Sheik, Samus, PT, Fox........they all have something about them that is "outstanding".

Sheik-Ftilt

Samus-Zair

PT- Ivy and Charizard each have an overpowered move and Squirtle has his dthrow

Fox-Usmash.

That's really why Sonic is never given credit. Sure, he can be played very well and his moveset does allow for a lot of mindgaming and baiting purposes.....but he has to work harder. Simple as that.

...
Ever heard of ASC????
EH!?
EHHHHHH!?!?
Well maybe if you guys actually gave him a chance and looked into his advanced techs than you would actually know that ASC is better than many of those moves that are soo "outstanding."

Getting off of Sonic I think Yoshi should of at least went up one spot, with the... oh wait you guys don't even think about certain attributes do yah?

 

[AOB]

Do you guys really think SBR members have some kind of strange hatred of Sonic? They* don't think he's good because they haven't been convinced.

Only to be shot down again by the claim that Sonic's only win scrub tourneys (which is impossible at how many points he earsn per placing which implies said tourneys have moderate amount of entrants or large entry fees). If thats not a blatant insult, what is?

This argument isn't as convincing as you think it is. It's a roundabout and erroneous way of deciding that the tournaments must have been high-level. You can't get to "The skill level of this tournament was high" using this logic.

Somehow, these tournament results seem a lot more significant to you and other Sonic mains than they do to SBR members. Forgive me, but I would much sooner believe that you guys are too biased in favor of Sonic than that SBR members are too biased against him. If Sonic really were doing well at large, significant tournaments, the SBR would take notice.

Being REALLY passionate about where a character is on the list is a reasonably good sign of fanboyism.

*Remember, I didn't vote.

 

[GMDartz]

Tier List

I'm pretty sure this tier list is accurate, cause everyone contributed to it. However, what i don't like is that MK is in his own tier list cause everyone will claim he's even more cheap and try to ban him >.> (Again, nothing wrong with the list) Btw, MK was originally ranked a 6, below Bowzer, a 7 lolz. Thx again for the tier list, but i'd like to remind you ppl that a "cheap" MK depends on who's playing it. A good MK won't spam or be "cheap"
Thanks for reading, and a Happy New Years to you ,
Dartz.

 

[Kinzer]

Sonic players need to just step it up. When the game first come out, everyone thought Peach was garbage. Lots of people actually putting her in bottom and low tier. Instead of complaining I stepped it up and placed at large tournaments and traveled and represented my character, as did some other peaches. Stop your whining and go win more and represent better yourself if it bugs you so much, sweet merciful mother of everything...

What more do you want from us? The others have already stated what we have done to try to improve Sonic as a character, yet he still gets underated. I'm growing tired of even trying to debate anymore, because for whatever reason the elitists on these boards are so biased against Sonic that they won't budge for anything less than mid-low (he belongs in high-low IMO, and no I'm not going with the cluster-@#$%ed ABC rankings, all you had to do was make a bottom tier). At least you got the part about Sonic rising up, but a character like Samus (third time I've said this, maybe?) is above Sonic? I bet you people put her above us one spot just because without that armor she is a pixel woman with overs- *shot*

Tourney ***s

Awesome first post.

Fun Edit:

"They* don't think he's good because they haven't been convinced."

That's it, I lost faith in the False SBR, hey Yoshi mains, wanna go make an alliance? Lucas/C.Falcon/PT have already made a pact with us, we'll put these tier-@#$%^& in there place.

I for one think Yoshi should share a spot with Sonic at the top of the low tier (or at least where it would be now if this list went by tiers and not letters)

 

[LumpyCPU...]

YAYUHZZZ
peach moved up 5
(tied for second in biggest improvement)

that's mah gurl

 

[Jono!]

this list is ****ing fail

 

[LumpyCPU...]

this list is ****ing fail

so you can relate with the list?

 

[Melomaniacal]

I'm pretty sure this tier list is accurate, cause everyone contributed to it. However, what i don't like is that MK is in his own tier list cause everyone will claim he's even more cheap and try to ban him >.> (Again, nothing wrong with the list) Btw, MK was originally ranked a 6, below Bowzer, a 7 lolz. Thx again for the tier list, but i'd like to remind you ppl that a "cheap" MK depends on who's playing it. A good MK won't spam or be "cheap"
Thanks for reading, and a Happy New Years to you ,
Dartz.

When was MK ranked 6th?

 

[Camalange]

MK in his own tier?

Good work MK! Way to step it up!

 

[Alzi]

Toon link is second on D Tier. I hope we go ahead of ZSS. Intresting to see how falco moved up some makes some sense anyways. Maybe if we clip falco's wings he can't SHDL so much. :D

 

[ShadowLink84]

Do you guys really think SBR members have some kind of strange hatred of Sonic? They* don't think he's good because they haven't been convinced.

This.

This argument isn't as convincing as you think it is. It's a roundabout and erroneous way of deciding that the tournaments must have been high-level. You can't get to "The skill level of this tournament was high" using this logic.

not this, for one Sonic mainers are the first ones to say, Sonic is NOT a good character. We are saying that sonic is not as bad as he appears.

Now you have several members saying SOnic users must do better.
And so sonic mainers have done better and they showed it in their placings in larger tourneys.
Yet those results are being brushed off as popularity and the demands are again made for Sonic mains to do better.
But why?
you have several characters like bowser who are doing BADLY in tournaments but end up higher than Sonic.

I wouldn't say anything if that tierlist was at least consistent.

Somehow, these tournament results seem a lot more significant to you and other Sonic mains than they do to SBR members. Forgive me, but I would much sooner believe that you guys are too biased in favor of Sonic than that SBR members are too biased against him. If Sonic really were doing well at large, significant tournaments, the SBR would take notice.

He moved from 28 to 22 to 18 over the course of the year and has consistently been placing well. How can the SBr not take notice.
if anything I would like to know why a character like Bowser who has only recently shown a little improvement is ranked higher than Sonic who has been showing advances in his metagame and has been showing improvement in his tournament placements and has been relatively stable.

Being REALLY passionate about where a character is on the list is a reasonably good sign of fanboyism.

Can you honestly say that anything that has been said by dj is false? that the Sonic mains have absolutely no reason to be annoyed with the fact that we continuously hear "do better" but when we do, it gets ignored and called popularity even though the popularity argument doesn't work.

Arguing passionately isn't bad as long as its done logically.
Of course no one is free from bias but reall andy, if you look at the tier list do you yourself not feel it gets inconsistent once you go below high tier?

*Remember, I didn't vote.

Even if you did I would love you just the same


@bigman: WOOHOO!

 

[lavamage]

ROFL at Fox being 6.66

Tier lists don't matter to me much since I play casually with friends, so what ever, but it is kinda cool to see where characters are and where they moved from.

 

[Fabian the Fastman]

Tourney ***s

nice troll

 

[Kinzer]

Look at the unsername, I find it as a failed attempt to get a laugh at those who don't pay attention.

Also I support SL saying that Sonic mains are the first to say he is a bad character who is not really understood as to why he is bad.

 

[Camalange]

nice troll

Hey, whoa man. Hey said DUN feed the troll, not PLZ feed the troll.

EDIT: Oh wait, are people STILL ignoring all the facts Sonic mains have presented at least a million times just be shot down because we're...fanboys? Fanboys can only place so far in a tournament with a lousy character...you need SOMETHING to work with. It's not like we've been placing consistently for the past....several months? Oh well, those tournaments don't mean ANYTHING. Samus, Ness, Lucas, and Mario are all much better because they're not Sonic. I mean, at least they don't place in scrubfests.

 

[Mmac]

Personally, I want to see the results from each person who voted on the Tier List for my Character. Why do I have that feeling that 80%+ put Yoshi in G-Rank?

 

[Rorshock]

lol metaknight tier
lol snake tier

waaa zelda moved down

 

[Kief]

yay two points for link!
and yeah fox is goin to hades lol.

 

[DanGR]

Do any SBR members that voted have an explanation for why Sheik/Zelda isn't included?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

[random] I'm surprised at the lack of complaining that Ike is too high. Last tier list, Ike was a whopping one spot higher, and a lot of people were complaining that he should be mid-low. He's right were he should be currently (and shouldn't move anytime soon unless Ness or Mario suddenly catch up to Ike in tournament results which is highly unlikely. Even then, I don't see that being enough for Ness to pass him) Even in the lists before this one came out, some people had him as low as mid-bottom.[/random] Are Yoshi's and Sonic's spots really that shocking?

I admit I find Yoshi's spot odd. He has had advances in his Meta-game, and a small rise in tournament results IIRC, he should of been above Samus without a doubt, and I find Sonic's placement curious. But seriously, 50ish pages complaining about those two only broken up with the occasional complaint about Ness and Lucas being even? Isn't that enough already?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Do you guys really think SBR members have some kind of strange hatred of Sonic? They* don't think he's good because they haven't been convinced.



This argument isn't as convincing as you think it is. It's a roundabout and erroneous way of deciding that the tournaments must have been high-level. You can't get to "The skill level of this tournament was high" using this logic.

Somehow, these tournament results seem a lot more significant to you and other Sonic mains than they do to SBR members. Forgive me, but I would much sooner believe that you guys are too biased in favor of Sonic than that SBR members are too biased against him. If Sonic really were doing well at large, significant tournaments, the SBR would take notice.

Being REALLY passionate about where a character is on the list is a reasonably good sign of fanboyism.

*Remember, I didn't vote.

Was/Is Ankoku not in the SBR.
If So call up your boy/girl (I seriously do not know, that is not meant as an insult) and have him (im going to assume dude) make a new formula for his list.
In where Tournaments that the SBR likes gets Bonus points so that when us commoners look at the list, we can get an accurate view of just WTF the SBR says, and so when you make a list, all you can say when people complain is look at the rankings list.
K?
Fanboyism?
The Fanboyism people are showing is because the results are obviously misleading, or the SBR is just picking and choosing wtf they want.
It's 1 of the 2, perhaps both actually, so I guess im incorrect, 1 of 3 possibilities.

Early in Brawl's Meta when the first list came out.
What would the SBR tell people; look at the results, you guys need to place more.
People literally said "okay".
People have been placing, thats just fact.
What is the SBR saying now.
It's been said before, so you can't tell me otherwise, unless your saying *insert* member is lying, "Those tourneys dont count, I didn't see the names of anyone I know".

Look, heres the deal, though you guys in the Room (im not pointing at you specifically but the group in total), need to back up the claims through some form of paragraph or sentence, whatever to explain your decisions.
Saying we took a vote? That doesnt work for me.
Theres examples in history, when people took a vote, and the WRONG things happened.

If you make a list, and you KNOW (and you should) that their is going to be suitable confrontation.
All you need to do, is have someone make a paragraph, sometimes only a sentence, hell for Metaknight you just need to repeat his name, and say "This is why so and so is here".

There is no explanation in the OP, then we have say "Look at *insert* main complaining, lawl go place at more tournaments", which isn't adequete, when the placements of that character have been relatively good, in actuality the placements of some characters surpasses what is expected of that character".

Anyways to Yoshi.
Aww COME ON.
Ankoku's rankings have Yoshi in the current meta as the 9th worst character.
He's not even at the ninth worst place.
I understand match ups and potential.
WTF is wrong with Yoshi's potential against exactly? He's not a terribad character.
I thought the word used in the SBR, character discussion was "mediocre"
Something like "Looks bad at first glance, amazing at second, and then after another look he's mediocre".
How the hell does that warrant his place?
People as SBR members have said "Said the same thing about peach"...well actually they were kinder to peach.

I've played Guild Wars, and I've watched melee, I can understand a metagame to some extent.
As in Guild Wars, we do have scrub Guilds playing.
The scrub builds can win with a build (replace build with character in terms of Smash), while the Pro's can come up on top even if the scrubs are running the same build.
People who run mediocre builds in Guild Wars however...Dont come on top.
In Smash your saying basically like Guild Wars, if your not in the Top 10 tourneys of *insert* time, than your win is insignificant.
That doesn't change though that there was a win.
Say in GW the current metagame is Palm Strike sins (Assassins using Palm strike to spike a character)
The Scrubs were running that first, because they're scrubs and the builds easy to run.
If a pro team is running hexway or Balancedway the pro team comes up on top, but the scrubs are WINNING matches.
Yes Pro's are winning with other builds (characters).
Doesn't change that scrubs are winning, in the case of Brawl, it's not just scrubs, it's some decent people as well.
They aren't famous in the community, but they are adequete.
People say well "at High levels of tournament play"
At High levels of tournament play, certain characters aren't even being used, so how can you base that to say if a character is bad or not.
If High level play is PURE Metaknights, does that mean Snake is bad?
No.
Snake is still > Falcon.
Though the metagame is pure MK (this is an example).
In professional play, really how many people are at the top in North america.
Are there 35 Top level contenders?
Seriously?
I can't name 35.
Probably because they are insignificant.
In those 35/36.
Is every character in Brawl used?
Nope.
So how can we say at high level play this character doesn't do well, if the people capable of playing at high levels are not playing them?
M2k playing Sonic for 1 tourney (again an example) doesn't mean he's a good sonic player.
So unless your taking your competent people and having them run through with said character, and proving this character can't work (and dude, if they can't play the character, dont make them play the character, it means they aren't a good judge for whether or not the character can make it or not, they can't even play the character well) then fine, your right, the character doesnt work well.
How many in the SBR and high level players are running Sonic in tourneys?
How many Sonic mains do you have?
1? 2?
Oh I must be hallucinating.
You have 7 or so right?

 

[Zylar]

@ Nintentofreak
Honestly what did you expect.?
Bound to happen, right, this doesn't seem much different than the first tier list.

Even you admit it's odd. It's their main, and they're aren't satisfyied with the answers given to them.