The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Dark.Pch]

If Mario is that much better, then where's the rep for him?

In the same place there is not rep for alot of characters people seriously don't know about.

 

[adumbrodeus]

In the same place there is not rep for alot of characters people seriously don't know about.

QFT

If Mario is that much better, then where's the rep for him?

But adding to what Dark.Pch said, Mario is a very difficult character to play well, he's based primarily on his gimp game, and he's got a ton of difficult techniques that incrementally improve his gimp game (and one technique that massively improves it, but while humanly possible, makes drill-shining look like a walk in the park).

He's like melee fox in that you've gotta be technical to be good with him, but unfortunately for mario, he's a mid tier character WITH all that effort, so a lot of people who would otherwise play just won't bother.

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi is a legit character, I just quit him after active gamers because hes hard to be consistant with.
And yoshi is definately better than mario.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Yoshi is either the very top of E Tier or bottom of D Tier IMO. Lots of his matchups are 40:60, mostly amongst high tiers but to a lesser extent against low tiers too, and with a couple of 35:65 MUs. Overall, many of his matchups are tough, but unlike characters such as Lucas or Zelda, only two or three high level matchups are almost impossible to win.

Fun fact: Yoshi has faster air mobility than both Jigglypuff and Wario.

Also, I agree that Mario should be higher, if only for his gimping game.

On a side note, I think that Lucas and Ness are slightly underrated (Regarding which is better, I'd say Lucas by a very tiny margin.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yoshi is a legit character, I just quit him after active gamers because hes hard to be consistant with.
And yoshi is definately better than mario.

You're missing the point, it's not that Yoshi isn't better then people THINK mario is, it's Mario is a lot better then people think he is.


Mario deserves a spot in C tier.


Mario's gimp game is just that good, and if there weren't so many top characters that are basically ungimpable, Mario would be even higher.

 

[phi1ny3]

I has an idea guyzzz!!one!
Why don't we all move the characters UP A TIER!?!
That way, everyone is happy that their character is "higher", and eventually over the course of time if it keeps going, even ganon will reach "S-tier", and at that point, MK will be in like "SSSSSSSS-tier" because we all think our characters are awesome! :D

 

[bigman40]

But adding to what Dark.Pch said, Mario is a very difficult character to play well, he's based primarily on his gimp game, and he's got a ton of difficult techniques that incrementally improve his gimp game (and one technique that massively improves it, but while humanly possible, makes drill-shining look like a walk in the park).

He's like melee fox in that you've gotta be technical to be good with him, but unfortunately for mario, he's a mid tier character WITH all that effort, so a lot of people who would otherwise play just won't bother.

And? Yoshi requires that kind of work too. We just have few players that actually devoted the time to using Yoshi than how Mario ended up. Alot of this theorycraft can happen, but unless it happens to where someone can prove the claims, there's not much you can go from.

I'm not doubting what you say, but there's nothing to truly back up the cases since there's no rep for him.

 

[Chaco]

He's like melee fox in that you've gotta be technical to be good with him, but unfortunately for mario, he's a mid tier character WITH all that effort, so a lot of people who would otherwise play just won't bother.

That's essentially Yoshi except bottom tier, and more technical.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I has an idea guyzzz!!one!
Why don't we all move the characters UP A TIER!?!
That way, everyone is happy that their character is "higher", and eventually over the course of time if it keeps going, even ganon will reach "S-tier", and at that point, MK will be in like "SSSSSSSS-tier" because we all think our characters are awesome! :D

Lolno.


The point is mario has many metagame-changing techniques that are almost completely unknown to the vast majority of smashboards and it gives him drastically better match-ups then he seems to have, and when they are applied, it will drastically improve his rankings (if the marios ever get around to applying them, *sigh*).



What you just said was a cop-out, I've made several characters that are worse then they are on the tier-list quite clear and I've made plenty of general statements that suggest certain characters need to go down.

Your statement is basically a way to avoid dealing with the logic behind my words because we'll "never be satisfied". So what if the community will never be satisfied, how does that relate to ME being right or wrong? Or any other individual on the thread.

Your statement is useless.

That's essentially Yoshi except bottom tier, and more technical.

Lolno. Yoshi's techniques aren't half as effective as Mario's.

And? Yoshi requires that kind of work too. We just have few players that actually devoted the time to using Yoshi than how Mario ended up. Alot of this theorycraft can happen, but unless it happens to where someone can prove the claims, there's not much you can go from.

I'm not doubting what you say, but there's nothing to truly back up the cases since there's no rep for him.

Out of what pool?

You realize our "results" are laughable from any statistical standpoint, right? They tell us nothing except current centralization because popularity plays too much of a factor.


Why are we using evidence that statistics debunked ages ago to prove character power? We have no way to control for skill, and popularity skews it way too much to even be considered half-way usable.


Don't make me drag out my, "by smash logic, if you wanna avoid cardiovascular disease, start smoking" example.



So, now that we're on theory, check the Mario boards, just take a look at their technique list, I'll give you a hint for a big one, "cape teleport".

 

[bigman40]

I've already seen the tech, and I think it's a nice move, but practical in matches reduces it's usefulness by a fair margin (and that's from my theory). Also, all these "techs" can claim to bring a lot of attention and boost his placement, but you have no one using or proving what the tech is really worth. This was practically the exact same scenario the Yoshi's came around when it came to finding new techs.

As it stands, he's not that much better until there's true application of his techs that you claim are "metagame changing."

 

[DanGR]

I don't know about Peach and Pit, simply because they're both kinda underrated.

climbers are still fairly UNDERrated

Lucario should actually rise...he's really underrated

I think [ZSS is] pretty underrated.

PT is heavily underrated

Falcon isn't nearly as underrated as PT.

Every character outside of S and A Tiers is underrated.

Link (who is highly underrated) should jump to E Tier

Lucas really is underrated.

DK is immensely underrated. Have at me.

In anycase, Lucas is underrated

Sheik is...I hate to say it, but underrated.

Peach is underrated.

I think [Peach] is *slightly* underrated

Mario is one of the most underrated characters

If I had a nickel for every...

 

[TLMSheikant]

^ Well, another nickle for you. TL is underrated.

 

[Vermy]

yaaaaay! i got quoted! ^.^

Every character is underrated because most people only main 1-3 characters. That leaves 34 other characters that they don't know nearly as much about. Not to mention how many people of high play maining each character. Not every region has a Reflex, Izaw or Shugo to flaunt potential.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dan totally wins this thread. He even quoted me twice!

Adum, Mario isn't C-Tier period. He's my low tier character and a lot of the things you say are wrong. He's not that hard to learn, really and he's overall not good enough for C-Tier. He's High D-Tier right below Sonic and maybe Ness (I'm not sure who's better but it's probably Ness) but not higher than that although come to think of it Yoshi is really close tbh. I think they're all D-Tier in this order: Sonic, Ness, Mario, Bowser, Yoshi.
E-Tier would be Jigglypuff, Samus, Zelda, Ike, Lucas and Link/Falcon/Ganon are F. But that's juts imo.
Point is that Yoshi isn't much worse than Mario. Both are D-Tier characters. I think you really misunderstand Mario tbh =/

Edit: I ordered the characters based on how viable they are in LT tournaments, not in the whole metagame. This makes more sense IMO as all those characters are 100% unviable.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lolno.


The point is mario has many metagame-changing techniques that are almost completely unknown to the vast majority of smashboards and it gives him drastically better match-ups then he seems to have, and when they are applied, it will drastically improve his rankings (if the marios ever get around to applying them, *sigh*).



What you just said was a cop-out, I've made several characters that are worse then they are on the tier-list quite clear and I've made plenty of general statements that suggest certain characters need to go down.

Your statement is basically a way to avoid dealing with the logic behind my words because we'll "never be satisfied". So what if the community will never be satisfied, how does that relate to ME being right or wrong? Or any other individual on the thread.

Your statement is useless.

Naw dude, you're taking my words too seriously/offensively. I just hear so many people saying "_____ should be higher" without realizing that it's all relative. Every character has some obvious strength but people need to back up their reasoning with something besides a one-liner (which you have, btw, so you fly under the radar).

Edit: Dan's multiquote post proves my point exactly.

 

[ShadowLink84]

its true though, like Spadefox said, everyone under S and A tier is underrated.
XD
No one bothers playing them since they can win consistently.
Ph!ny, but he also cut out what was said afterwards like with Adumbrodeus and I.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I've already seen the tech, and I think it's a nice move, but practical in matches reduces it's usefulness by a fair margin (and that's from my theory). Also, all these "techs" can claim to bring a lot of attention and boost his placement, but you have no one using or proving what the tech is really worth. This was practically the exact same scenario the Yoshi's came around when it came to finding new techs.

As it stands, he's not that much better until there's true application of his techs that you claim are "metagame changing."

And you're saying a technique that makes it impossible for most of the cast to grab the ledge when mario is near is not metagame changing for his metagame?


The practical implication is right there, what is NEEDED is for people to practice so they can use it.


Yes, it's difficult, but proper timing on this is something you've gotta get down to be successful as a mario player, and if you time it properly, most characters when they up-b into the ledge are committed enough that all you need is proper timing.

If I had a nickel for every...

It is the nature of the metagame for characters to be overrated and underrated, it's very difficult to know everything about everyone.

 

[Nanaki]

lol I got quoted.

And I even said I hated to say it, because it sucks when everyone labels each and every low tier as underrated.

We should start listing overrated characters.

Most obvious answers: King DeDeDe, Falco, Kirby, Game and Watch, Zelda

The not-so obvious (in my opinion): Marth, Olimar, Pit, Luigi

Let's hear 'em.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

E-Tier would be Jigglypuff, Samus, Zelda, Ike, Lucas and Link/Falcon/Ganon are F. But that's juts imo.

I know that list is "just in your opinion", but I can't help but say how horrible it is.

Ike, Jigglypuff, Zelda, and Lucas, E Tier? Link F Tier? Link's better than Jiggly, Samus, Falcon, Yoshi, and Ganon. Maybe not Yoshi, but those other characters are certain.

 

[DanGR]

It is the nature of the metagame for characters to be overrated and underrated, it's very difficult to know everything about everyone.

I guess I'll make a point. I don't have any other response to this. xD
(The following isn't directed at you.)

Any character can be over/underrated because everyone makes conjectures about different characters- most are different, I'd say. That's obvious. What matters is whose eyes you're looking through and how that person came to the conclusion they've drawn from their experiences and thoughts. With that in mind, what a person thinks about a character isn't true until they've proven it to be true. To put this shortly, baseless claims are worthless, and I find it hilarious that people still form them after people repeatably tell them to stop. xD
Ex. "I think Snake sucks" has as much of a foundation as "I think PT is underrated."

edit: wow, my posts are so redundant. >_>

 

[KillerJawz]

Ike, Jigglypuff, Zelda, and Lucas, E Tier? Link F Tier? Link's better than Jiggly, Samus, Falcon, Yoshi, and Ganon. Maybe not Yoshi, but those other characters are certain.

That's just your own opinion right? ....... right?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I guess I'll make a point. I don't have any other response to this. xD
(The following isn't directed at you.)

Any character can be over/underrated because everyone makes conjectures about different characters- most are different, I'd say. That's obvious. What matters is whose eyes you're looking through and how that person came to the conclusion they've drawn from their experiences and thoughts. With that in mind, what a person thinks about a character isn't true until they've proven it to be true. To put this shortly, baseless claims are worthless, and I find it hilarious that people still form them after people repeatably tell them to stop. xD
Ex. "I think Snake sucks" has as much of a foundation as "I think PT is underrated."

edit: wow, my posts are so redundant. >_>

If that's all you say, then yes.


But have you ever known that to be all I say? lol (even though it wasn't directed at me)


I think people expect to be challenged on points like that because they're defying the standard beliefs of the community at large.

 

[bigman40]

And you're saying a technique that makes it impossible for most of the cast to grab the ledge when mario is near is not metagame changing for his metagame?

Never claimed that. My claim is that is not game changing until someone can prove it. If people really knew it was game changing, then they would be using it right now no?

The practical implication is right there, what is NEEDED is for people to practice so they can use it.

This is basically what I'm telling you. People need to show it's worth during matches for people to actually understand a meaning of how "dangerous/game changing/good" it truly is. As of currently, Mario mains are not using it (from what I understand from your posts), and currently (not potentially) he's not a character that is that good over most of the characters around him in the tier list.

 

[Deleted member]

Sup adumbrodeus
Ima let you finish, but i beat DEHF in pools at Active Gamers with yoshi.
Im not a great player or the best yoshi
Yoshi ***** ^^

Mario hasnt beaten anyone ever, EVER.

Prove me wrong

 

[Nefarious B]

Heh rip.

Socks is beast

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Sup adumbrodeus
Ima let you finish, but i beat DEHF in pools at Active Gamers with yoshi.
Im not a great player or the best yoshi
Yoshi ***** ^^

Mario hasnt beaten anyone ever, EVER.

Prove me wrong

Boss.

/topic

 

[Melomaniacal]

i beat DEHF in pools at Active Gamers with yoshi.

Uh-huh...

i beat DEHF in pools

pools

Pools.

 

[Deleted member]

I love swimming pools.
:D

Edit: Please dont infract me. Zero Suit samus should be top tier! /on topic

By the way, he was not sandbagging xD
but forget it
But if i were a good player i would not want to risk getting 3rd seed or 2nd seed (the 2nd seed in my pool played ally first round), and considering the top 3 in my pool tied, thats cutting it a little close.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Uh-huh...
Pools.

I really hate this attitude. So, what, unless they played him five times in grand finals they opponent was just sandbagging?

Give me a break and stop making excuses for other players to fuel your arguments.

 

[Deleted member]

I will admit i got lucky but he wasnt sandbagging, multiple people told me this including him xD


Wolf is a wierd character haha. He has like good attributes but he gets gayed so much i dunno what to think of him.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I really hate this attitude. So, what, unless they played him five times in grand finals they opponent was just sandbagging?

Give me a break and stop making excuses for other players to fuel your arguments.

Holy hell, relax. I'm not even completely serious. Control the rage meter, please.

But I will say that I have never seen/been in a pool where the high level players didn't sandbag.


Also:

I really hate this attitude. So, what, unless they play him one time in friendlies the opponent was trying his hardest?
Give me a break and stop making excuses for other players to fuel your argument.
Lawl.

(Did I even have an argument?)

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Most players don't really try their very hardest to win in pools. But it doesnt mean they sandbagged.

 

[smashmachine]

i bet he suicided like against dojo

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Holy hell, relax. I'm not even completely serious. Control the rage meter, please.

But I will say that I have never seen a pool where the high level players didn't sandbag.

Either way, calm yourself.

I'm not really mad, per se. I'm just a little flabbergasted at people who john (yes, they are johnning) for high level players allllll theeeeee time.

I think sometimes my style of internet talk is a little abrasive. But I'm not mad.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I'm not really mad, per se. I'm just a little flabbergasted at people who john (yes, they are johnning) for high level players allllll theeeeee time.

I think sometimes my style of internet talk is a little abrasive. But I'm not mad.

****, you quoted that in the middle of two edits, haha.

 

[Palpi]

Anther lost to some ****ty player that melo beat in pools. LEGIT WIN FOR SOME RANDOM ****TY PLAYER RIGHT?!

 

[Dark.Pch]

Fact: If you are a known player that players a high tier people use so much in tournaments and lose to someone who you or others might say are not as good as you or are better, people will make excuses for you for losing. People should already know this by now. And just expect it.

 

[Albert.]

So now lets discuss about how much better Pit and DK are than Peach LOLLLL

 

[Dark.Pch]

So now lets discuss about how much better Pit and DK are than Peach LOLLLL

You boys lost this fight a long time ago.

 

[Albert.]

s*** f*** Dark Peach's infallible logic just wrecked me.

I'm never going to recover from this.