The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Captain L]

I have an idea. A special idea. How about instead of only ordering the top tiers carefully and "Sorting" the rest of the characters, you crefully examine each to make his/her individual placing more accurate? Just because Falco may be "S" tier doesn't mean he should be examined any more then Samus or Pokemon Trainer. Only then will we have a perfectly accurate list.

Difference between 3rd and 4th spot on tiers: Big.
Difference between 34th and 35th: Who really cares, they both suck.

 

[LuigiKing]

I have an idea. A special idea. How about instead of only ordering the top tiers carefully and "Sorting" the rest of the characters, you crefully examine each to make his/her individual placing more accurate? Just because Falco may be "S" tier doesn't mean he should be examined any more then Samus or Pokemon Trainer. Only then will we have a perfectly accurate list.

Yes it does. No one cares where Samus ends up on the tier list because she still sucks either way. The top of the tier list is far more important, and thats just the way it is.

 

[zeldspazz]

Then why are so many people debating the placement of low tiers if "nobody cares"
Need I remind you there are things called low tier tournaments, where low tiers actually become more important?

 

[Kinzer]

Low-Tier tourneys.

That's the only reason anybody may want to argue their placings, because otherwise everybody knows that anything below D-tier will not get anywhere in the standard ruleset.

 

[Sliq]

I have an idea. A special idea. How about instead of only ordering the top tiers carefully and "Sorting" the rest of the characters, you crefully examine each to make his/her individual placing more accurate? Just because Falco may be "S" tier doesn't mean he should be examined any more then Samus or Pokemon Trainer. Only then will we have a perfectly accurate list.

More people use the higher tier characters. If NO ONE uses the lower tiers, then it makes it considerably harder to compare tournament results based on character. This is why the top of the tier list is always the most accurate, and degrades as you go down it.

 

[zeldspazz]

Low-Tier tourneys.

That's the only reason anybody may want to argue their placings, because otherwise everybody knows that anything below D-tier will not get anywhere in the standard ruleset.

Says who?

Apparently right now Pokemon Trainer, Ness, and Ike are getting somewhere decently. All of them are D tier and lower.

And there is still the fact that Low tier tournies exist, so even if its the only reason its still a reason

 

[Kinzer]

Says who?

Apparently right now Pokemon Trainer, Ness, and Ike are getting somewhere decently. All of them are D tier and lower.

And there is still the fact that Low tier tournies exist, so even if its the only reason its still a reason

I repeat, if low-tier tourneys did not exist, there would be no reason except for fanboyism to talk about anything below D-Tier. C-tier is already pushing it, but anyway-

The reason people are discussing the characters you mentioned is because some people actually believe that they should be moved up... up high enough that they should be in C-Tier and banned from low-tier play (I don't know why people would want to do this though, unless fanboyism and all that blah blah blah. Most of the Sonics were sadface when we learned about how we can't make money except in the AN where he's still legal; which it shouldn't be, but just because statistics show otherwise, I'm going to be judged as wrong... Too bad, Ike is so much easier to pick up, be good with, and almost just as potent as Sonic if Sonic were allowed in said low-tier events).

Pokemon Trainer is the only character I believe deserving of such a promotion (but that's debatable, obviously), I'd guffaw at the thought of anybody telling me that Ness or Ike should be anything but low-tier material.

 

[zeldspazz]

I absolutely agree Kinzer.
But just think, if we always were like "who cares about low tiers" nobody would look into them. And then how would we know that they have potential to move up above low tier? Which is why, when forced to analyze each character in detail, you may actually learn something worthwhile that can improve the metagame, instead of saying "haha low tier, you suck"

 

[LanceStern]

Well they can be low tier sure, but FOW "gets somewhere" in tournaments. Even with top players around

 

[Ripple]

they should just have an S tier banned tournament. that takes away DDD and therefore makes almost everyone worth using. and if DDD isn't their worst (like zelda) then snake, MK, and diddy are banned.

 

[Kinzer]

I absolutely agree Kinzer.


But just think, if we always were like "who cares about low tiers" nobody would look into them. And then how would we know that they have potential to move up above low tier? Which is why, when forced to analyze each character in detail, you may actually learn something worthwhile that can improve the metagame, instead of saying "haha low tier, you suck"

Glad you do.

And I actually forgot to mention that until I came back here to clarify that. Good to see that you're thinking about too.

Anyway yes, it's absolutely true that if some metagame change does occur, then a tier-list covering the whole cast has to reflect upon that change and be accurate. I'm just saying how it wouldn't be as heavily debated because again, sadly, anybody worth their salt knows that high-tiers have a greater impact in the competitive scene. Now if we're talking about a metagame change that warrants not just a small +1 or +2 jump, but a drastic change that merits a whole jump into another tier (if not more), then @#$% gets real. Bonus points if that metagame change makes a character rise from the depths of unviable hopelessness to suddenly becoming an actual threat to the cast of characters that are already qualified viable (and more).

Well they can be low tier sure, but FOW "gets somewhere" in tournaments. Even with top players around

You mean tourneys outside of Vegas? FOW does some amazing @#$% in teams and locals, but besides that (and S.I.N.) what else is he known for?

Man, I hate to downplay my own region, especially after FOW gave me an @#$-whooping in friendlies. I wish I didn't suck so much/ he'd stoop using high-tires on meh.

 

[Ripple]

Glad you do.



You mean tourneys outside of Vegas? FOW does some amazing @#$% in teams and locals, but besides that (and S.I.N.) what else is he known for?

beating lain at genesis in pools

 

[DMG]

The real question is SHOULD FOW "get somewhere" in tournaments with top players around? In a more perfect world, no. People should just learn Marth, Pick FD/Smashville/etc and grab him lol. But they don't. They use their mains, having little to no Ness practice or having a lot of Ness practice but still not really understanding exactly what he can do, and people are like "Wow I didn't know Ness can do that" or "Dang I wasn't prepared for that".

Ok fine, but what happens once you DO realize what Ness can do? He... He loses.

 

[zeldspazz]

Glad you do.

And I actually forgot to mention that until I came back here to clarify that. Good to see that you're thinking about too.

Anyway yes, it's absolutely true that if some metagame change does occur, then a tier-list covering the whole cast has to reflect upon that change and be accurate. I'm just saying how it wouldn't be as heavily debated because again, sadly, anybody worth their salt knows that high-tiers have a greater impact in the competitive scene. Now if we're talking about a metagame change that warrants not just a small +1 or +2 jump, but a drastic change that merits a whole jump into another tier (if not more), then @#$% gets real. Bonus points if that metagame change makes a character rise from the depths of unviable hopelessness to suddenly becoming an actual threat to the cast of characters that are already qualified viable (and more).

Gotcha, we are on the same page

Man, I hate to downplay my own region, especially after FOW gave me an @#$-whooping in friendlies. I wish I didn't suck so much/ he'd stoop using high-tires on meh.

I lold :D

 

[Ripple]

The real question is SHOULD FOW "get somewhere" in tournaments with top players around? In a more perfect world, no. People should just learn Marth, Pick FD/Smashville/etc and grab him lol. But they don't. They use their mains, having little to no Ness practice or having a lot of Ness practice but still not really understanding exactly what he can do, and people are like "Wow I didn't know Ness can do that" or "Dang I wasn't prepared for that".

Ok fine, but what happens once you DO realize what Ness can do? He... He loses.

so are you also suggesting people learn

DDD for DK/bowser
DK/Marth for Ness/lucas
ZSS/falcon for ROB
Sheik/pika/ZSS for fox

just so they can auto win?

might as well learn every character right now

 

[Kinzer]

beating lain at genesis in pools

Pools, really?

Hmm... Why do I have the feeling that pools would not be taken as seriously...? I mean, would I want to seriously try if I was still going to get seeded into the bracket if I just lost to this one person and handily beat everybody else?

I dunno, can we namedrop Lain in here and get his opinion on this? I'm really curious.

Anyway, glad to see DMG gets where I'm trying to get.

What a cruel world for low/mid-tiers, the ((near?)perfect) competitive scene is...

 

[zeldspazz]

Which is why Im sooo glad Sheik is a part of Zelda

 

[Fogo]

Fogo occassionally loses to one of the best Jigglypuffs. Aw yeah.

I've never dropped a game to a jiggz, i've also only played 2 >_>

 

[Ripple]

Pools, really?

Hmm... Why do I have the feeling that pools would not be taken as seriously...? I mean, would I want to seriously try if I was still going to get seeded into the bracket if I just lost to this one person and handily beat everybody else?

I dunno, can we namedrop Lain in here and get his opinion on this? I'm really curious.

Anyway, glad to see DMG gets where I'm trying to get.

What a cruel world for low/mid-tiers, the ((near?)perfect) competitive scene is...

how about beating inui in the crew battle? in fact he 2 stocked him

 

[Fogo]

Not to mention his performance in teams. Idk if you would count that, but the kid is definitely worth watching.

 

[Kinzer]

how about beating inui in the crew battle? in fact he 2 stocked him

But Inui sucks man, that's no accomplishment.

He's below Ganon on the tier-list for crying out loud!

Spoiler

...I honestly don't know how to respond to that then... All I'll say is that in a perfect competitive scene, characters like DK, Ness/Lucas (does he suffer 40+ frames of Grab-release animation too?), etc. would not get anywhere because everybody comes equipped with the knowledge to exploit this game down to the point where it just gets depressing...

Edit:

Spoiler

Huh...? Seems like they removed Inui from the game now... ah well, my joke still stands da****!

 

[DMG]

so are you also suggesting people learn

DDD for DK/bowser
DK/Marth for Ness/lucas
ZSS/falcon for ROB
Sheik/pika/ZSS for fox

just so they can auto win?

might as well learn every character right now

The way I see it, if you are going up against a character that has an established "auto lose" matchup, and you lose with a different character, then it's your fault for losing and maybe you should have learned the auto win matchup.

Take the FOW/Lain example: Lain loses to FOW. Now, at this point if he really is determined to beat FOW next time they play, he will just learn how to play Marth and next time he plays FOW he will be like "Gotcha!". Now, imagine if... 3 or more pros that FOW faces against just randomly decide to do this. They randomly pick up Marth. What would happen to FOW's placement? Surely it would drop by a noticeable amount. Why? Did the other players get that much better to the point where they clearly outclass FOW in skill? No, they simply just faced him with a hard counter over and over and over in tournament.

Once you identify that a character has a noticeable flaw concerning hard counters/extremely bad matchups that aren't hard for the other person to learn, then it becomes harder to argue "Well X player does well with Y character, therefore he should rise".

Like I said though, in the current competitive scene, players do not "exploit" such flaws as aggressively as they possibly could.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Gheb, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Nice to see I'm not the only one pointing that out. >_>

And if pools count for things: I've nearly beaten Hylian before in my first tournament, and Ike must somehow have an advantage against Diddy Kong for the match to be so close with such a large skill gap. lol

I'm not saying pools count for nothing, as they obviously do to some extent. Heck, if my Uair had hit him before his fair hit me, which would have made him lose, he wouldn't have made it into the brackets. But people will often mess around/try new things in pools if they feel confident enough about their chances of getting in, so it's not as good of a conclusion as if it was a MM or Tournament Match. For example, I obviously wouldn't say Ike has a 6-4 A over Diddy Kong because of that one match. If it had been in tournament where I know Hylian would have gone full out (or at least much more likely), then it would be worth more.

Once you identify that a character has a noticeable flaw concerning hard counters/extremely bad matchups that aren't hard for the other person to learn, then it becomes harder to argue "Well X player does well with Y character, therefore he should rise".

Indeed. Not that a character should ever rise because of one person anyways.

 

[4nace]

That logic is kinda flawed, DMG. If they really are not that skilled with those characters, then FOW can just learn one other character to stop those who are willing to use Marth vs him rather than their mains. Then once again, the more skilled player would win. But what? FOW learned another character with a hard counter, who gets to pick their character last?!

 

[LordofIke]

I Feel Sad now Ike is a much better character than players seem to say.
This Is A Sad Day Indeed.

 

[Palpi]

No, he is fine where he is at.

 

[TwentyTwo]

That logic is kinda flawed, DMG. If they really are not that skilled with those characters, then FOW can just learn one other character to stop those who are willing to use Marth vs him rather than their mains. Then once again, the more skilled player would win. But what? FOW learned another character with a hard counter, who gets to pick their character last?!

Double blind pick. So you could choose marth in the double blind pick, and be relatively safe as he has no hard counters. FOW however has to guess what the pick is because his best character ness, can be hard countered, now if he tries to hard counter Marth, which you can't, he's no longer playing his best character. Granted the situation can get even more complicated than this in a double blind trying to mess with your opponent, like lain actually picking ice climbers in double blind, and FOW expecting Marth, and picks not ness, and gets ***** because he doesn't know how to fight anyone other than marth with this CP char. But yes basically, answer to your question, double blind.

 

[Palpi]

Plus, marth doesn't have any auto-lose MU's.

 

[da K.I.D.]

But people will often mess around/try new things in pools if they feel confident enough about their chances of getting in, so it's not as good of a conclusion as if it was a MM or Tournament Match.

This is how I beat Judge! in pools. lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

for the record, according to the aib ladder FOW plays a solid metaknight. so, hed probably stand a good chance of beatign a marth in a double blind

lol i forgot i posted already

 

[Kinzer]

LOL Lag-Fi.

 

[CaliburChamp]

for the record, according to the aib ladder FOW plays a solid metaknight. so, hed probably stand a good chance of beatign a marth in a double blind

lol i forgot i posted already

No. He sucks with MK. He has a very bad internet connection according to what a bunch of people say in his comments. Wifi is not legit, especially with a horrible connection.

 

[CaliburChamp]

I Feel Sad now Ike is a much better character than players seem to say.
This Is A Sad Day Indeed.

At least he's not bottom tier. And too many characters improved for Ike to remain in mid tier. Like Sonic and Pokemon Trainer.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

yeah but Lucario isn't low tier.

That was more so directed at the comment Lucario is a really bad match-up for Ike. He's not.

Ike is a terrible character and you all should feel bad for losing to him.

Thanks for making me feel good about myself, Kirk.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Samus, Sonic, Sheik, Jigglypuff and Link.

All these match-ups are neutrals, or slightly disadvantaged.

Wut?
How in the hell is Falcon going even with Sonic?
Especially when Sonic does EVERYTHING better than Falcon does.
Or anyone of those characters?
Perhaps its someone else you mean.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ike is a terrible character and you all should feel bad for losing to him.

Oh you mad cus san/red-x/mogwai/watkins/inui be stylin on ya...

 

[GooseMainsDiddy]

Diddy ***** all... Discuss.

 

[laki]

Diddy ***** all... Discuss.

Diddy gets ****ed up by snake and has to work ten times as hard to get parity.

Basically snakes working on the weekends for 120 an hour while diddys doing 80 hour weeks and getting payed in bananas.

 

[FaWa]

S tier banned actually sounds like a great idea.

 

[zeldspazz]

S tier banned actually sounds like a great idea.

You forgot the "/sarcasm" at the end of that post