The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Shaya]

Terrible aerial mobility (from ivy) plus using those 20 odd frames of invincibility from a ledge drop + bair = bad spot for ivy.

Like, even Snake has the tools required to gimp Ivy's recovery.
SNAKE.

Well, I guess that isn't saying too much considering the range and power of his bair, but bleh.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Terrible aerial mobility (from ivy) plus using those 20 odd frames of invincibility from a ledge drop + bair = bad spot for ivy.

Like, even Snake has the tools required to gimp Ivy's recovery.
SNAKE.

Well, I guess that isn't saying too much considering the range and power of his bair, but bleh.

Ivysaur is really, really ****ty on the edge (when on the defensive, anyway--Ivysaur has a nice edgeguarding game), but that's not what was mentioned, heh.

 

[Ripple]

since I picked up PT ivy has actually become my best of the three. I just can't seem to use squirtle effectively

 

[MetalMusicMan]

since I picked up PT ivy has actually become my best of the three. I just can't seem to use squirtle effectively

I think you can only be good with weird characters, ripple hahahaha


I like Ivy though and think he gets underestimated, although his recovery IS terrible. I just like squirtle and charizard a lot better.

we should PT ditto some time those are super fun

 

[Shaya]

Squirtle is a beast.
Piss you off with ftilts and jabs all day long with almost as much annoyance as MK's ftilt/dtilt. Coupled with some sliding mindgames and AWESOME grab range (stupid thing :'()
Then it gets fatigued and it's all sadface from there...

It's just a character that has a degree of technical prowress required to be proficient in using him.

-

Yeah, Ivy isn't too bad at gimping some chars.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It still doesn't make Solo Ice Climber an actual character. I think everyone knows that a standalone Ice Climber is horrible and only half a character.

Of course, but the information derived is useful because it's a situation that you will encounter in actual gameplay without artificially limiting yourself. In that sense, it's similar to 2v1 data in which it's not the standard form, but it occurs often enough to be relevant information to the competitive community.


Granted, Sopo data should be rolled into IC data in general (in other words, ICs recovery reduced because Sopo's is so bad based on the amount of time Sopo is present on average, obviously match-up dependent), but still, it's relevant data.

 

[ShadowLink84]

How to beat Solo Ice Climber.
Point and laugh.


All right seeing as how I've kinda not been, acting logically for the past few weeks I will attempt to post something of merit.

The primary reason that Solo Ice Climber really isn't worth discussing is because the character relies HEAVILY upon its fellow clone. Without said, clone, its options become SEVERELY limited due to the fact that the solo IC can no longer maintain its options nor its safety.

This fact alone is why solo Ice Climber really is not worth discussing, primarily because the second Ice Climber is such an incredible tool in itself that once lost, the true weakness of a solo ice climber is brought out.

The terrible lack of range, offensive, defensive as well as recovery options severely hurt the solo ice climber.
Simply put, while you WILL have to deal with a solo ice climber, typically, there is not much to really learn about the solo Ice Climber because everything about the character is so blatantly obvious, so very easily predicted, that in truth, at a high level of play, that solo IC is most likely going to die in a few moments.

It is part of why Sonic does so well in tournaments, he has such a wealth of options that it boosts his punishment game further.

Certainly the quality of those options is just as important if not more, but when the opponent is capable of predicting your every move based upon your character's abilities alone, it becomes that much of an issue.

 

[DanGR]

How to beat Solo Ice Climber.
Point and laugh.

...

Simply put, while you WILL have to deal with a solo ice climber, typically, there is not much to really learn about the solo Ice Climber because everything about the character is so blatantly obvious, so very easily predicted, that in truth, at a high level of play, that solo IC is most likely going to die in a few moments.

he eh...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQiMYGWhdVM#t=1m55s

Granted, Sopo data should be rolled into IC data in general (in other words, ICs recovery reduced because Sopo's is so bad based on the amount of time Sopo is present on average, obviously match-up dependent), but still, it's relevant data.

BUT I'm in agreement and disagreement with this. >_>

He's still terrible on his own. Discussing his placement in any list simply isn't worth the time ... unless you just like debating in order to debate, in which case... nevermind. We're not under any deadline.

<_<

In any case, it's already understood that the ICs recovery is much worse without nana- as it is understood that Olimar's recovery is worse than usual when he doesn't have a lineup of 6 pikmin... or when he has no purple pikmin in his line... It's not as huge a transition from having 6 pikmin and 3 purples to having only 4 and no purples than it is from having Nana beside you to her dead, but the concept is still the same.

Perhaps I'm overcomplicating this.

ANYWAYS.

Continue.

 

[adumbrodeus]

he eh...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQiMYGWhdVM#t=1m55s


BUT I'm in agreement and disagreement with this. >_>

He's still terrible on his own. Discussing his placement in any list simply isn't worth the time ... unless you just like debating in order to debate, in which case... nevermind. We're not under any deadline.

<_<

His placement, yes. His match-ups, no, which his recovery is part of. Though realistically, ranking recoveries from best to worst is a waste of time anyway, because just like Sopo's, match-ups is where it matters and every recovery varies depending on match-ups in effectiveness, heck every move.

In any case, it's already understood that the ICs recovery is much worse without nana- as it is understood that Olimar's recovery is worse than usual when he doesn't have a lineup of 6 pikmin... or when he has no purple pikmin in his line... It's not as huge a transition from having 6 pikmin and 3 purples to having only 4 and no purples than it is from having Nana beside you to her dead, but the concept is still the same.

True, again, both would be rolled into match-ups, as would all recoveries.

 

[ShadowLink84]

he eh...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQiMYGWhdVM#t=1m55s

.

Hey HEY! Don't pick out random circumstance. =P

 

[DMG]

You know what would have been worse? If M2K camped Lain when he got a nice lead and he only had SOPO.

If he camps him hard enough where Sopo isn't gonna reliably kill him/do damage, the IC's have 2 options at that point:

1. Keep trying

2. Kill himself to get Nana back

By the time the IC player realizes it, it may be too late.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You know what would have been worse? If M2K camped Lain when he got a nice lead and he only had SOPO.

If he camps him hard enough where Sopo isn't gonna reliably kill him/do damage, the IC's have 2 options at that point:

1. Keep trying

2. Kill himself to get Nana back

By the time the IC player realizes it, it may be too late.

Its like a board game.

playing as solo IC

1.Dont
2.If you cant avoid number 1, try using blizzard and ice blocks and your Dthrow CG
3. If you cannot do this due to the opponent planking, go back to step 1 or go to step 4.
4. Suicide and get nana back.

 

[Luigi player]

You know what would have been worse? If M2K camped Lain when he got a nice lead and he only had SOPO.

If he camps him hard enough where Sopo isn't gonna reliably kill him/do damage, the IC's have 2 options at that point:

1. Keep trying

2. Kill himself to get Nana back

By the time the IC player realizes it, it may be too late.

I also thought about this, but didn't really try it, lol.

 

[V]

Here's my opinion about what the next tier list will look like DISCLAIMER: I know several minds put together are better than one, so I'm not having the attitude my tier list is right. Just let me know what you think.

S TIER
Meta Knight
Snake
Diddy Kong
Falco
Wario
Marth


A TIER
Ice Climbers
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Olimar
Pikachu
R.O.B.
Lucario

B TIER
Kirby
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Donkey Kong
Peach

C TIER
Luigi
Fox
Wolf
Sonic
Sheik

D TIER
Bowser
Ike
Pokémon Trainer
Zelda


E TIER
Ness
Mario
Yoshi
Lucas
Samus


F TIER
Link
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
​

Made a few adjustments to your original (bolded) but I think this is on point with the current metagame.

 

[Kewkky]

I want to know the people's opinions on wha the tiers' letter's definitions mean. For example, S is for the ones who rake in all the tourneys, and F is for the ones who will arguably never win a tourney...

That would help me understand more the reasons behind people putting Kirby in B/C tier. He has a very very good chance of placing high in tourneys at the top of the metagame (of course not like the S tier people, but he still does around the same as a number of A tiers and does better than most of the B tier regularly).

 

[V]

I want to know the people's opinions on wha the tiers' letter's definitions mean. For example, S is for the ones who rake in all the tourneys, and F is for the ones who will arguably never win a tourney...

That would help me understand more the reasons behind people putting Kirby in B/C tier. He has a very very good chance of placing high in tourneys at the top of the metagame (of course not like the S tier people, but he still does around the same as a number of A tiers and does better than most of the B tier regularly).

I don't know too much about Kirby's current metagame but I know he gets wrecked by several characters above him who are very common at tournaments.

 

[rathy Aro]

You guys are treating the letter like high, top, low, etc. That's exactly what they were trying not to do. Every letter just has chracters that are close to each other. So if I say MK, Snake, and Diddy are S tier it just means the difference between Snake and Diddy a decent amount less than Diddy and Falco. So there could be more or less letters.

I should add a huge iirc to this post. lol

 

[Ripple]

I was bored OK?

SS Tier

Meta Knight 10.00
Snake 9.75
Diddy 9.55



S Tier

Wario 9.15
Falco 8.70
Ice Climbers 8.55
King Dedede 8.40

A Tier

Marth 8.00
Pikachu 7.80
Mr. Game & Watch 7.50
Olimar 7.20
R.O.B. 7.15
Lucario 7.00




B Tier

Kirby 6. 65
(Squirtle) 6.60
(Sheik+Zelda) 6.50
Zero Suit Samus 6.40
Toon Link 6.30
Pit 6.15
Donkey Kong 6.10
Peach 6.05
Luigi 5.90

C Tier

Sheik 5.40
Fox 5.25
Wolf 5.20
Sonic 5.00
Pokemon Trainer 4.95
Ike 4.85




D Tier


(Charizard) 4.60
Bowser 4.50
Zelda 4.35

E tier

Ness 4.00
Lucas 3.85
Yoshi 3.60
(Ivy) 3.50
Mario 3.40

F Tier

Samus 3.00
Link 2.85
Jigglypuff 2.80
Captain Falcon 2.45



G(od/anon) Tier

Ganondorf 1.70​

ALL NUMBERS ARE WHAT I THINK, THEY ARE JUST HOW I RANK THE CHARACTER AND THEREFOR, NOT IMPORTANT

I felt that an extra tier was necessary to show the difference between character potential, it also shows that Dedede is indeed "S" tier potential and possibly marth. Luigi I feel is bottom of B tier material instead of C tier material. PT may actually be bottom C tier also but IDK it may be some bias

D tier is weird also, if you look at it, the 2 (3) characters in it are really in their own tier. everyone below them is considerably worse and everyone above is quite better

e tier is really a toss up, IDK where to put them. as are the top half of B

discuss

 

[V]

@ Ripple

According to your list, Marth should move into the S tier because he far outclasses the other characters in A tier and he's on par with the S tier characters.

 

[o-Serin-o]

^ This.

D3 < Marth unfortunately His tourney results are better and his metagame is improving better than ours.

 

[Shaya]

Marth should never be represented in a tier list lower than the Tier that Falco/Wario/Diddy are in if MK is also not in said tier.

 

[Kofu]

Allow me to ask why so many people put ZSS so low, or at least lower than Game & Watch.

While I do not think that the latter is quite as bad as some people say, I also think that ZSS is superior to him.

 

[Ripple]

Marth should never be represented in a tier list lower than the Tier that Falco/Wario/Diddy are in if MK is also not in said tier.

bias much?


although marth does destroy people and do very well I think that D3 will be above him because D3 has better tools to deal with other characters and arguably only loses to 2-3 characters.

MK, ICs, and falco.

Marth goes even or next to even with many characters including some in B and C tier and is not qualified to be in S tier

edit: kofu I'm sorry but ZSS is no where near as good as G&W

 

[Spelt]

since when does having even matchups mean someone's a bad character...?

 

[St. Viers]

It's yet another laughable part of smash mentality.

 

[Ripple]

since when does having even matchups mean someone's a bad character...?

I never said marth was a bad character. comprehension fail

I said he wasn't good enough to be in "S" tier. having even match ups isn't a bad thing but when a character has more favorable match ups then it means that character is better. D3 has more favorable match ups than marth and not to metion D3 completely negates 6 characters viability.

It's yet another laughable part of smash mentality.

l2 read before posting and agreeing with someone who didn't understand what I said at all

 

[DMG]

Those 6 characters are?

Dedede only "negates" the viability of potential 1-2 characters. Name characters he "nullifies" that otherwise would have promising competitive prospects.

You can't take away a character's viability if he doesn't have it to begin with.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I never said marth was a bad character. comprehension fail

I said he wasn't good enough to be in "S" tier. having even match ups isn't a bad thing but when a character has more favorable match ups then it means that character is better. D3 has more favorable match ups than marth and not to metion D3 completely negates 6 characters viability.

The issue is that DDD negates 4 craptastic characters so it does not mean very much.
Meanwhile he has problems with the IC's, olimar and Falco, three characters who are are far better than those he beats.

Big deal he kills off characters who dont mean anything anyway, but he loses to characters that do matter.
Meanwhile Marth is an extremely safe character, sure he may not kill as many off, but he isn't losing as badly as DDD does to character sthat matter.

 

[Ripple]

Those 6 characters are?

Dedede only "negates" the viability of potential 1-2 characters. Name characters he "nullifies" that otherwise would have promising competitive prospects.

You can't take away a character's viability if he doesn't have it to begin with.

ok fine, he super hard counters 6 characters (DK, mario, luigi, samus, wolf, bowser)

all are 75-25 or worse most likely

 

[Ripple]

The issue is that DDD negates 4 craptastic characters so it does not mean very much.
Meanwhile he has problems with the IC's, olimar and Falco, three characters who are are far better than those he beats.

Big deal he kills off characters who dont mean anything anyway, but he loses to characters that do matter.
Meanwhile Marth is an extremely safe character, sure he may not kill as many off, but he isn't losing as badly as DDD does to character sthat matter.

actually most of the top D3 players consider ICS to be even along with olimar, so no he doesn't lose to characters that matter except falco.

thats 1 bad match up

 

[BSP]

ok fine, he super hard counters 6 characters (DK, mario, luigi, samus, wolf, bowser)

all are 75-25 or worse most likely

What? I don't think vs. Luigi is 75-25

 

[Spelt]

I never said marth was a bad character. comprehension fail


l2 read before posting and agreeing with someone who didn't understand what I said at all

i understood what you said perfectly.
i read between the lines.
you said he's lower than other characters because he has even matchups.
aka not as good.
aka, bad.
ohsnap.

 

[DMG]

I think that as Brawl ages, people will see the importance of "safety" in a character. Having only a few small disadvantages and only a few advantages is usually better than having a lot of greatly advantaged matchups and having a lot of greatly disadvantaged matchups.

If your character's worst matchup/few worst matchups are 6/4, that's viewed by the community as "winnable". If your character has even 1 or 2 65:35 or harder matchups, it becomes less likely you will win that.


Take a double Blind pick for example. First match, you have no idea what he will pick, he has no idea what you will pick.

For the sake of argument, the stage is FD.

Take Marth. AT WORST, he might have it 6/4 or 65:35 against, say MK, there. He also might have 55:45 or 6/4 against Snake, and 55:45 against Dedede himself while going relatively even with the rest of the cast or having a slight plus on them.

Now take Dedede. AT WORST, something like IC's/Diddy/Falco will happen, likely being 65:35 or even a possible 7:3. He also will have to deal with MK, Olimar, and maybe 1-2 more bad matchups. Now, he will have a lot of 7/3 or 65:35 in his favor, and a few even matchups too.


Marth is the "safer" pick in that instance. He might not beat a lot of people 65:35 or 7/3 like Dedede, but he doesn't lose/have as many bad matchups as Dedede. Pure odds wise, assuming the other guy picks a random character, Marth is more likely to get an even or better matchup, while Dedede is favored to get not only a bad matchup, but one of the more severe ones compared to Marth. Even if Marth is matched up with his worst matchup, it's generally seen as "winnable". If Dedede is matched up with his worst matchup, it's seen as "extremely hard to win" or "very very hard to win".

 

[Kofu]

None of the best Bowser mains will say that DDD super hard counters the Koopa King.

Please read the following posts.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@ Ripple

According to your list, Marth should move into the S tier because he far outclasses the other characters in A tier and he's on par with the S tier characters.

Bigger divide between him and S then him and A.

I think that as Brawl ages, people will see the importance of "safety" in a character. Having only a few small disadvantages and only a few advantages is usually better than having a lot of greatly advantaged matchups and having a lot of greatly disadvantaged matchups.

If your character's worst matchup/few worst matchups are 6/4, that's viewed by the community as "winnable". If your character has even 1 or 2 65:35 or harder matchups, it becomes less likely you will win that.


Take a double Blind pick for example. First match, you have no idea what he will pick, he has no idea what you will pick.

For the sake of argument, the stage is FD.

Take Marth. AT WORST, he might have it 6/4 or 65:35 against, say MK, there. He also might have 55:45 or 6/4 against Snake, and 55:45 against Dedede himself while going relatively even with the rest of the cast or having a slight plus on them.

Now take Dedede. AT WORST, something like IC's/Diddy/Falco will happen, likely being 65:35 or even a possible 7:3. He also will have to deal with MK, Olimar, and maybe 1-2 more bad matchups. Now, he will have a lot of 7/3 or 65:35 in his favor, and a few even matchups too.


Marth is the "safer" pick in that instance. He might not beat a lot of people 65:35 or 7/3 like Dedede, but he doesn't lose/have as many bad matchups as Dedede. Pure odds wise, assuming the other guy picks a random character, Marth is more likely to get an even or better matchup, while Dedede is favored to get not only a bad matchup, but one of the more severe ones compared to Marth. Even if Marth is matched up with his worst matchup, it's generally seen as "winnable". If Dedede is matched up with his worst matchup, it's seen as "extremely hard to win" or "very very hard to win".

This is what I've been saying since Brawl came out.


*more dmg love*

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think that as Brawl ages, people will see the importance of "safety" in a character. Having only a few small disadvantages and only a few advantages is usually better than having a lot of greatly advantaged matchups and having a lot of greatly disadvantaged matchups.

If your character's worst matchup/few worst matchups are 6/4, that's viewed by the community as "winnable". If your character has even 1 or 2 65:35 or harder matchups, it becomes less likely you will win that.


Take a double Blind pick for example. First match, you have no idea what he will pick, he has no idea what you will pick.

For the sake of argument, the stage is FD.

Take Marth. AT WORST, he might have it 6/4 or 65:35 against, say MK, there. He also might have 55:45 or 6/4 against Snake, and 55:45 against Dedede himself while going relatively even with the rest of the cast or having a slight plus on them.

Now take Dedede. AT WORST, something like IC's/Diddy/Falco will happen, likely being 65:35 or even a possible 7:3. He also will have to deal with MK, Olimar, and maybe 1-2 more bad matchups. Now, he will have a lot of 7/3 or 65:35 in his favor, and a few even matchups too.


Marth is the "safer" pick in that instance. He might not beat a lot of people 65:35 or 7/3 like Dedede, but he doesn't lose/have as many bad matchups as Dedede. Pure odds wise, assuming the other guy picks a random character, Marth is more likely to get an even or better matchup, while Dedede is favored to get not only a bad matchup, but one of the more severe ones compared to Marth. Even if Marth is matched up with his worst matchup, it's generally seen as "winnable". If Dedede is matched up with his worst matchup, it's seen as "extremely hard to win" or "very very hard to win".

Marth snake isn't 55:45 it's closer to 65:35 TBH.

 

[DMG]

Marth vs Snake is not 65:35 Snake's favor sir. I can assure you that.

 

[Ripple]

i understood what you said perfectly.
i read between the lines.
you said he's lower than other characters because he has even matchups.
aka not as good.
aka, bad.
ohsnap.

are you serious? Diddy has lots of even match ups(for being 3rd-4th best).

aka, he's not as good as snake or MK

aka, he's bad

see what YOUR logic accomplishes? nothing


quit putting your wods into my mouth, thats not how it is at all. I don't believe marth is a bad character. I said he isn't S tier material. END OF DISCUSSION quit being ******** and taking something other than how it obviously means.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Marth vs Snake is not 65:35 Snake's favor sir. I can assure you that.

How can you assure that to me?

Doesn't diddy get wrecked by falco and weegee? There's no reason he should be higher than Wario,

 

[DMG]

Because I am DMG. My word is law.

For example, Wario loses to Marth.

IC's lose to MK.

Marth is a girl.

Shiek got dem thighs.

Cod is a type of Fish.


Do you see where I am going with this?