The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[adumbrodeus]

You want to bana tactic hat affects a handful of character.
Okay, i want to start banning tactics that make Sonic unviable.
If you ban something, it sets a precedent and you must follow that precedent. if we ban something because it affects DK, it shows we are willing to ban something because of the effects it has on one character, not because it actually affects the metagame significantly.

Ban dtilt amiright?

Come on dude. Lets be for real with the 300% That is sudden death % right there to say there is nothing wrong with allowing that dumb grab to 300%

And I wanna know, what reason are there for planking being legal?

But it's fair that ICs do it to Ganondorf and worse?


Honestly, it's a bad match-up, DDD has the attributes that directly counter DK and I see no reason to selectively edit it.



As far as planking, it's just a good defensive position, I understand why you of all people are opposed to it since you consistently oppose extremely defensive play, but still, there's nothing proven broken about it.

 

[DMG]

While I'm not inherently opposed to defensive play, I think it's too strong when done correctly. You are right in that we don't have a close consensus mostly because we don't have strong results supporting either side/actual number of results on the issue is somewhat lacking.

 

[Dark.Pch]

You don't have to argue about planking with me. You can argue that with other people. I am just stating that people have varying opinions on it. I'm not justifying any stance, even though I personally don't think planking should be allowed.

You don't think it should be banned cause you do it. Simple as that. Youdo it and enjoy it, done.

And this is not an arguement. Simple question. How many times has it been beating?

But it's fair that ICs do it to Ganondorf and worse?

when did I say it was fair?

Honestly, it's a bad match-up, DDD has the attributes that directly counter DK and I see no reason to selectively edit it.



As far as planking, it's just a good defensive position, I understand why you of all people are opposed to it since you consistently oppose extremely defensive play, but still, there's nothing proven broken about it.

DDD Vs DK is a stupid match up for DK all cause of a skillless infininte.

And planking is legit to a point people can't beat it?

 

[Zankoku]

You don't think it should be banned cause you do it. Simple as that. Youdo it and enjoy it, done.

You'd do a lot better at arguments if you didn't throw three or more logical fallacies in each paragraph.

 

[Suspect]

The big problem, I think. Is that the boards are flooded with people who don't play competitively but want to make rules for tourneys they won't enter and voice their opinions on match ups they haven't played.

This is pretty true, also goes with this forum as well when in regards to mods/admins. I made a thread asking them if they even played this game or went to tournies, MORE than half said no to both and very few went to tournies on occasions. It was funny.

 

[Zankoku]

This is pretty true, also goes with this forum as well when in regards to mods/admins. I made a thread asking them if they even played this game or went to tournies, MORE than half said no to both and very few went to tournies on occasions. It was funny.

I don't think moderators of User Blogs, General Brawl Discussion, 1-Player Modes, Online Discussion, Videos, the various Regional Zones, Melee discussion, Pool Room, Debate Hall, Forum Games, Lighthouse, Smash 64, Poké Center, Legend of Zelda, Media Metropolis, Artwork Emporium, Creative Minds, or Computer Café are obligated in any way to have competitive tournament experience, and since that's like half of the boards right there, the results of your poll are not at all surprising to me.

 

[ShadowLink84]

@adumbrodeus: I still cant get past it =(

 

[Suspect]

I don't think moderators of User Blogs, General Brawl Discussion, 1-Player Modes, Online Discussion, Videos, the various Regional Zones, Melee discussion, Pool Room, Debate Hall, Forum Games, Lighthouse, Smash 64, Poké Center, Legend of Zelda, Media Metropolis, Artwork Emporium, Creative Minds, or Computer Café are obligated in any way to have competitive tournament experience, and since that's like half of the boards right there, the results of your poll are not at all surprising to me.

I never said they had to.

 

[DMG]

???

Dark.Pch, I am IN favor of banning planking lol. Saying I want it in the game so I can do it to people doesn't make sense when I clearly state that I think it is detrimental enough to the game that it warrants a ban/at the very least some limits set on it.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Funny, thats what I thought you said at first, then read again and got this strange message saying you wanted it allowed. Ok then, my bad.

 

[adumbrodeus]

While I'm not inherently opposed to defensive play, I think it's too strong when done correctly. You are right in that we don't have a close consensus mostly because we don't have strong results supporting either side/actual number of results on the issue is somewhat lacking.

Actually, I've asserted on a number of occasions that if planking is broken, people need to do it and prove it broken.


The lack of results to prove broken means that it shouldn't be banned.

 

[DMG]

The problem is getting people to plank in the first place.

It's like getting everyone to play MK. He's the best character in the game, why limit yourself and play another character? But then you look at reality and people play Low tiers, Mid tiers, other characters basically.

Motivating people to widespread plank, regardless of whether the outcome is for better or for worse, is REALLY hard to do.

 

[Dark.Pch]

The problem is getting people to plank in the first place.

It's like getting everyone to play MK. He's the best character in the game, why limit yourself and play another character? But then you look at reality and people play Low tiers, Mid tiers, other characters basically.

Motivating people to widespread plank, regardless of whether the outcome is for better or for worse, is REALLY hard to do.

We have a handful of people who do that already. It has been done many times already. And I would like to know how many times has it been beaten?

 

[-Mars-]

Another thing is that while remaining somewhat competitive, people realize that to switch to MK at this point would mean that they are a good 2+ years behind in the MK metagame and while switching to MK may help you beat a few more people.......you will still have to learn a whole new set of matchups, have to deal with the ditto, and have to beat people in a MU that they know like the back of their hand.

 

[DanGR]

The problem is getting people to plank in the first place.

It's like getting everyone to play MK. He's the best character in the game, why limit yourself and play another character? But then you look at reality and people play Low tiers, Mid tiers, other characters basically.

Motivating people to widespread plank, regardless of whether the outcome is for better or for worse, is REALLY hard to do.

I have much more of a problem convincing the TOs in my area to keep any form of it legal. They all ban it arbitrarily.

 

[DMG]

That is an issue for the player, not for the character/game.

Edit: To make sense:

Another thing is that while remaining somewhat competitive, people realize that to switch to MK at this point would mean that they are a good 2+ years behind in the MK metagame and while switching to MK may help you beat a few more people.......you will still have to learn a whole new set of matchups, have to deal with the ditto, and have to beat people in a MU that they know like the back of their hand.

Replying to ^^^^^ this not DanGR.

 

[da K.I.D.]

While I'm not inherently opposed to defensive play, I think it's too strong when done correctly.

You don't think it should be banned cause you do it. Simple as that. Youdo it and enjoy it, done.

I personally don't think planking should be allowed.

You don't think it should be banned

I personally don't think planking should be allowed.

Reading is fundamental, brah

 

[CaliburChamp]

ZSS could be top 10, but top 10 isn't good enough to compete anymore, lol.

Basically:

MK
Snake
Diddy

These are set. These three characters are easily the bet in the game.

Wario
Falco
ICs
Marth
Dedede

These perform well, but have one or more soft counters and sometimes a hard counter in the top 3 or amongst themelves.

Squirtle
ZSS
Pikachu
Olimar
Pit
Lucario

Thes characters all have incredible strenghths (zss' aerial/combo game, pikachu's mobility and chaingrab game, olimar's grab game, etc) but are offset by crippling matchups in the tiers above them and perhaps even crippling weaknesses (ZSS vs. Falco, Pikachu vs. Marth). They are characters worthy of high tier if not for unfortunate weaknesses they just happen to have.

Game and Watch
Kirby
ROB
Peach
DK
Toon Link
Fox

These characters are very well-designed and strong but have unwinnable match-ups, telegraphed or predictable approach games, or exploitable recovery. These are typically the worst characters worth playing.

Ivysaur
Charizard
Luigi
Wolf
Sonic
Sheik
Ness
Mario
Link

These characters are good characters that suffer from one extremely large hole (such as KO power, infinites, etc) and are generally not suitable for tournament play.

Lucas
Ike
Bowser
Zelda
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

These characters all have one gimmick or strength that when exploited correctly produce impressive results, but quickly fizzle out once the opponents learn how to avoid said gimmick. They also suffer from some of the problems of the previous category. These characters are not at all suitable for tournament play.

Ganondorf

lol

I do believe Zamus is the 10th best character in this game.

 

[DMG]

He re-read it and it made sense to him now lol.

Also Diddy is not the undisputed 3rd best character in the game.

Wario
Falco
Marth

Along with MK and Snake have advantaged matchups against him (counting 55:45 in their favor as advantaged too). Take a look at Wario

MK
Marth

Only characters that beat him in that group (Dedede is now our advantage thanks to a new finding/CG.)

Even if you count the characters past that, Diddy has trouble with Peach and Jiggs, where as Wario has trouble with Peach also and that's it. Everyone else he either goes even with or beats.


Then compare them on CP stages, and it starts to look more favorable for Wario over Diddy.


I'm not arguing that Diddy isn't the 3rd best character in the game. I am arguing that it's not as clear cut as some of you paint it to be.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Tier 1 (Galaxy) God Tier.
Meta Knight 10.0
Snake 9.9

Tier 2 (Moon) Top Tier.
Diddy Kong 9.8
Wario 9.6
Falco 9.5
King Dedede 9.4
Marth 9.3
Ice Climbers 9.2
Pikachu 9.1
Zero Suit Samus 9.0

^I believe these are the characters we will only see used in competitive brawl in the new year 2010.

Tier 3 (Sky) High Tier.
Game & Watch 8.9
Olimar and Pikmin 8.7
Pit 8.5
R.O.B. 8.4
Toon Link 8.3
Lucario 8.2
Kirby 8.1

^ These characters who are fine for competitive play, aren't enough to stay permanent against the advanced metagame, in the forth coming future. Example, the melee metagame.


These are characters that are viable at the very top of the metagame.
Top
Fox 9.9
Marth 9.8
Falco 9.6
Jigglypuff 9.5
Shiek 9.4

High
Captain Falcon 9.3
Peach 9.2
Ice Climbers 9.0

These characters used to be tournament viable, they were, but with the huge metagame advancement they couldn't win tournaments in highly competitive tournaments.

Middle
Samus 8.8
Ganondorf 8.7
Dr. Mario 8.5
Mario 8.3
Luigi 8.2
Donkey Kong 8.0

In conclusion, only the best 2 tiers of each game will be competent forever, while the 3rd best tier will fall from the advanced meta game advancement.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

He re-read it and it made sense to him now lol.

Also Diddy is not the undisputed 3rd best character in the game.

Wario
Falco
Marth

Along with MK and Snake have advantaged matchups against him (counting 55:45 in their favor as advantaged too). Take a look at Wario

MK
Marth

Only characters that beat him in that group (Dedede is now our advantage thanks to a new finding/CG.)

Even if you count the characters past that, Diddy has trouble with Peach and Jiggs, where as Wario has trouble with Peach also and that's it. Everyone else he either goes even with or beats.


Then compare them on CP stages, and it starts to look more favorable for Wario over Diddy.


I'm not arguing that Diddy isn't the 3rd best character in the game. I am arguing that it's not as clear cut as some of you paint it to be.

Can you please stop hyping Marth he's nowhere near as good as you make him out to be.

 

[DMG]

???

He beats Diddy and Wario, how is that hyping him? Lol. That's admitting a weakness in those characters.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

???

He beats Diddy and Wario, how is that hyping him? Lol. That's admitting a weakness in those characters.

No he doesn't. Diddy is even. He has a slight advantage on Wario if that. If not for GR he'd lose to Wario.

 

[Chuee]

Diddy doesn't lose to jiggz.
Also Wario's two are 60-40's (You said that MK was more of 60-40) while Diddy's are 55-45.

 

[CaliburChamp]

DMG: Maybe for a Wario player, Marth is harder than Diddy, but Diddy is the better character for sure.

 

[da K.I.D.]

didnt ganon get third at rom2?

ganon>samus

the funny thing that I see is that i feel like all the diddys that say diddy beats marth, lose to marths, and all the marths that think marth wins, lose to diddys.

 

[DMG]

Chuee: I don't think Wario Diddy is 55:45 anymore. I think Wario can win 6/4. Falco IDK if he's only 55:45 against Diddy or not, IDK it's debatable. The rest are around 55:45 though indeed.

My point though is that compare how many bad matchups(55:45 included) they have. Diddy has MK, Snake, Wario, Falco, Marth, Peach.

Wario has Marth, MK, Peach.

 

[da K.I.D.]

wat ddd development are you talking about that makes wario not lose to him any more?

 

[DMG]

Buffered Boosted Dthrow CG.

Still a fairly new discovery. Exact details are not complete. It is confirmed that Dedede, for at least some length of damage, cannot spotdodge/escape this when done correctly. How long this CG lasts/when it can start is not known, nor how staleness affects it (like it affects most of his CG's). Based on the trajectory of Dedede's path, I am looking into whether or not this works on Snake and Metaknight as well. Snake I have a hunch it will work on. Metaknight I am less certain of.

 

[Chuee]

How does that affect the MU enough to put it in Wario's favor?
Im fairly certain that D3 already has an air release inf. on a ledge against Wario.

 

[DMG]

air release infinite is situational, doesn't matter until Wario is at a fairly high % (think about how high of a % Mario/Samus need to be at to be standing infinited truly. Where Dedede has to pummel.)

The CG, someone has reported, goes up to 192%. This is NOT confirmed. The CG IS confirmed, NOT the damage mark where it ends.

We are also in the process of knowing when it starts. I think past 30-40 at least because I was able to pull it off at those %'s among other varying %'s.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Would this improve all Warios chaingrabs (like the one on falco)?

Because honestly atm I think the MU is 55:45 for falco.


Also, almostlegendary, you are underrating marth.

 

[C.box]

Can you please stop hyping Marth he's nowhere near as good as you make him out to be.

Why is it anytime you post it's always about how overrated marth is but then you never give any reason as to WHY he is overrated.

All you ever say is "No he doesn't it's at least even agrb rb rbvbvr".

Never providing any reasons as to why it's even or why he loses.

 

[-Mars-]

My thoughts for the next tier list:

S:
MK
Diddy
Falco
Snake
Wario

A:
Marth
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
DDD
G&W
ZSS
Olimar
Kirby
Lucario

B:
Toon Link
ROB
Pit
Peach
Donkey Kong
Sheik
Wolf
Luigi

C:
Fox
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Ness

D:
Ike
Bowser
Lucas
Samus
Captain Falcon
Link

E:
Yoshi
Jiggs

F:
Ganondorf
Zelda

 

[DMG]

Would this improve all Warios chaingrabs (like the one on falco)?

Because honestly atm I think the MU is 55:45 for falco.


Also, almostlegendary, you are underrating marth.

I thought it would, however looking at the frame data I don't think it would.

Wario's regular CG on Falco already has a small frame window. Boosting a grab adds a few frames to it and probably makes it where Falco can escape. Dedede/DK/larger characters like that are "stuck" longer than characters like Falco, making the boost grab feasible (this might extend our CG on DK by quite a bit, making it a true 0-death.)


Also 55:45 for Falco, factoring in the regular CG for Wario? IDK. I think Wario wins or at worst goes even. The prospect of Wario getting a stock lead and camping like hell is just too strong IMO.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i like where you put sonic and pikachu and lucario

zelda and snake both need to go up 3 and 2 spots respectively.

 

[stingers]

Snake isn't the 2nd best in the game anymore...imo

 

[Wulfy07]

Look, Marth isn't a bad character, but he is a bit overhyped. Looking at the reference made to him here looks more like a comparative statement.

As for third best character, I will definitely concede that the true third best is really a tough call. However, I narrow it down to Diddy and Falco for being a tough call. Wario has virtually no reason to claim being better than either of these character. (THough, looking at the Wario match up board, one would think that Wario is one of the best characters in the game. I don't see claim to a single disadvantaged match up other than Marth, but maybe I just missed it?)

DDD isn't there, but maybe the new AT will change that? I'll leave that aside for now.

When it comes down to Diddy versus Falco in terms of placement, I have to go back and look at the characters. Both of them are insane. Though complicated with learning curves that are doable, but not exactly easy. CG versus Bananas, mind games become the entire game decider. So when it comes to this match up, statistics really become irrelevant and it comes down to who gets in the other person's head first. Well, despite the fact that I personally find Falco to be the all around better character, I have to suggest that the BR is more likely to go with the success of Diddy Kong in tournaments and make him number three. Whoever is first won't really affect my opinion, of either as they are both really great and pretty much tie in placement.
So, if Diddy and Falco are 3-4, that leaves DDD versus Wario for 5/6. Aside from my rant of neither belong in S tier (opinion), I have to give Wario a slight advantage over DDD in terms of placement because DDD is tied down by Marth (who may even deserve a position swap with DDD). Still, these two are really close... the Marth thing might move DDD down, but in terms of the third place discussion, Falco/Diddy, no contest outside of that.

 

[Wulfy07]

Ah, Wario's got the boost grab? Huh..., misread that. That aside, rest of my opinion. Stands.

Also, Wario versus Falco is even. (opinion is stated)

Stinger... Snake is number 2... why on earth would you suggest otherwise?

 

[Shaya]

Dedede beats Marth, or at worst goes even.
His drop of usage is giving Marth reason to be S tier in the current metagame.

Also, DMG,
Wario's downthrow gives more hitstun to heavier characters?
Isn't that opposite of the norm?

Boost grabbing being more frames and all makes me think the distance is neglible unless Wario was able to CG him frame wise in the first place (but being unfeasible due to length of distance travelled).