The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Dark.Pch]

That sounds pretty risky, but very fun.

Am I the only one who thinks Luigi could pass Peach? He kills at like, half of the percent she does. The D3 infinite is escapable with mashing until around kill percents anyway, isn't it?

::Waits for Dark.pch to go Super Saiyan at the injustice of my claim::

*Goes super saiyan at the injustice of your claim*

 

[.Marik]

i just noticed that sheik passed zelda, wierd...

Oh Lord, here we go again...

 

[Nanaki]

*Goes super saiyan at the injustice of your claim*

See guys? He's not so hard to get along with.

*Goes Super Saiyan in response*

Luigi v. Peach, Super Saiyan style!

I honestly don't know, since I don't know much about either character, but which does better against the top/high tier? I always hear how great Luigi does against Diddy and Wario.

 

[Matador]

I honestly don't know, since I don't know much about either character, but which does better against the top/high tier? I always hear how great Luigi does against Diddy and Wario.

The Diddy thing is true.

However, I had a short convo with PhantomX about the Wario vs Luigi matchup and it seems closer to even than Luigi's favor.

@ Meno: Luigi has pretty good spacing/shield pressure. It's a problem, but I find that his biggest problem is his vulnerability to projectile spam and subpar approach. His defensive game could stand to be a little better as well.

 

[Dark.Pch]

See guys? He's not so hard to get along with.

*Goes Super Saiyan in response*

Luigi v. Peach, Super Saiyan style!

I honestly don't know, since I don't know much about either character, but which does better against the top/high tier? I always hear how great Luigi does against Diddy and Wario.

As Long as people are cool with me, I am cool right back.

And to be honest. I could see Luigi passing Peach. To me these 2 are even in terms of character quality. Those 2 would be kinda hard to see who goes over who. I honestly don't know who goes over who here.

 

[TRAMD]

PKT2 (when he hits himself with PKT) is crazy strong. I'm not sure on the damage, but it can KO light characters in the 60% range, I think. It's not super easy to hit with, though, especially on a good opponent.

Best to avoid being hit by an electrocuted Ness/Lucas, in general.

It is one of the strongest KO moves in the game with HUGE knockback in the first half of the motion and decent knockback during the second half. Depending on stage and location I regularly KO light characters with the first half of PKT2 in the 30's and heavy ones in the 40's-50's. It also does in the mid 20's for damage. You DO NOT want to be next to Ness and unshielded when he hits himself with that PKT. Lucas' has the potential to be the single most damaging move in the game, dealing 43% undiminished if all hits connect. The final hit of it also has decent knockback but nothing like Ness'.

I like Ness way more but do feel that Lucas is probably better. I like Ness' PKT2 and PK flash more due to high KO potential and better mindgames but they are probably not practically better than Lucas'. Ness' throws and aerials are better but only marginally so. I would say Lucas has better tilts that are all quite useful. Up and down smashes are very different for both and although Lucas' are more punishable they both have awesome KO potential so I say that gives him a slight edge there. They have the same grab-release problems. That leaves us with the two unanswered advantages that Lucas has over Ness: His PK thunder (but I would keep Ness' PKT2) that doesn't go away when it hits someone and definitely his Fsmash. Ness' Fsmash does more damage and has a slightly larger range but the speed and knockback of Lucas' stick actually make it a viable move, unlike Ness' bat in most situations.

 

[Paranormalsin]

i just noticed that sheik passed zelda, wierd...

down b has always been one of zeldas better moves.

 

[LuigiKing]

I think weegee could definitely pass Peach, and maybe DK someday if we get our acts together. He's a counter to diddy and olimar and does well against wario. Last time I checked all those are getting big lately. Though MK and Marth aren't even worth playing, so as long as MK is in he'll stay waaay down. (IMO)

 

[Zankoku]

I think Luigi's matchups are a little too off-balance to really go above Peach. Having **** matchups is only helpful when you don't have matchups where you get ***** right back.

Peach seems to have a bit of trouble with most of the high tier, but I don't think there are any matchups that would be not "even worth playing."

 

[thrillagorilla]

....Only three characters have infinite grab releases on Ness:

-Charizard
-Marth
-...someone else >_>

DK. Donkey Kong. Huh!

 

[Nanaki]

As Long as people are cool with me, I am cool right back.

And to be honest. I could see Luigi passing Peach. To me these 2 are even in terms of character quality. Those 2 would be kinda hard to see who goes over who. I honestly don't know who goes over who here.

I think you're probably right at this point. Metagames change though, and Peach mains are pretty dedicated to improving her. Luigi mains are...quirky (and awesome!).

It is one of the strongest KO moves in the game with HUGE knockback in the first half of the motion and decent knockback during the second half. Depending on stage and location I regularly KO light characters with the first half of PKT2 in the 30's and heavy ones in the 40's-50's. It also does in the mid 20's for damage. You DO NOT want to be next to Ness and unshielded when he hits himself with that PKT. Lucas' has the potential to be the single most damaging move in the game, dealing 43% undiminished if all hits connect. The final hit of it also has decent knockback but nothing like Ness'.

I like Ness way more but do feel that Lucas is probably better. I like Ness' PKT2 and PK flash more due to high KO potential and better mindgames but they are probably not practically better than Lucas'. Ness' throws and aerials are better but only marginally so. I would say Lucas has better tilts that are all quite useful. Up and down smashes are very different for both and although Lucas' are more punishable they both have awesome KO potential so I say that gives him a slight edge there. They have the same grab-release problems. That leaves us with the two unanswered advantages that Lucas has over Ness: His PK thunder (but I would keep Ness' PKT2) that doesn't go away when it hits someone and definitely his Fsmash. Ness' Fsmash does more damage and has a slightly larger range but the speed and knockback of Lucas' stick actually make it a viable move, unlike Ness' bat in most situations.

Thanks for the in-depth response.

My only reply is that I thought Rock Smash did more damage than Lucas' PKT2 (assuming all hits of both connect). Can you QCDI out of Lucas' PKT2 if you get caught in it early?

I think weegee could definitely pass Peach, and maybe DK someday if we get our acts together. He's a counter to diddy and olimar and does well against wario. Last time I checked all those are getting big lately. Though MK and Marth aren't even worth playing, so as long as MK is in he'll stay waaay down. (IMO)

Curse that MK.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think weegee could definitely pass Peach, and maybe DK someday if we get our acts together. He's a counter to diddy and olimar and does well against wario. Last time I checked all those are getting big lately. Though MK and Marth aren't even worth playing, so as long as MK is in he'll stay waaay down. (IMO)

Peach is the same way. She gets at both Diddy and olimar. And I was also told that Peach has a slight advantage on Wario. But idk about Peach Vs Warion. Hardly play him, so I can't say anything about it.

Peach and luigi are the same in different ways if that makes any sense.

 

[Zankoku]

From what I've played of Peach vs Wario, her aerial maneuverability lets her annoy Wario's usual aircamping game by playing with his spacing, and he can't stick out of range because her turnips have full flexibility of being thrown anywhere. Add to that being able to KO Wario off the top at 93% from a grab release and there's quite a bit going for Peach.

On the other hand, her relatively weak airdodge, light weight, and really slow falling speed make it hard for her to get back on her feet when Wario has momentum.

 

[Popertop]

I think Luigi's matchups are a little too off-balance to really go above Peach. Having **** matchups is only helpful when you don't have matchups where you get ***** right back.

Peach seems to have a bit of trouble with most of the high tier, but I don't think there are any matchups that would be not "even worth playing."

snake and D3 say hi

and it's not 93% you can smash DI and live. It will kill at 100% guaranteed.

 

[Nanaki]

I think Luigi's matchups are a little too off-balance to really go above Peach. Having **** matchups is only helpful when you don't have matchups where you get ***** right back.

Peach seems to have a bit of trouble with most of the high tier, but I don't think there are any matchups that would be not "even worth playing."

I suppose having MK as a hard counter probably doesn't make your tournament viability super high, eh?

The Diddy thing is true.

However, I had a short convo with PhantomX about the Wario vs Luigi matchup and it seems closer to even than Luigi's favor.

@ Meno: Luigi has pretty good spacing/shield pressure. It's a problem, but I find that his biggest problem is his vulnerability to projectile spam and subpar approach. His defensive game could stand to be a little better as well.

Is Mario as good against Diddy as Luigi? I'm curious about that matchup.

 

[Zankoku]

snake and D3 say hi

I don't remember Dedede being one of Peach's harder matchups, compared to Snake and G&W. Still not to the level of "not even worth playing," though.

and it's not 93% you can smash DI and live. It will kill at 100% guaranteed.

Are you sure? I know that as Sheik it's guaranteed at 100%, even with full SDI down and sideways DI, and Peach's hits harder (but deals less damage, strangely enough).

 

[Dark.Pch]

snake and D3 say hi

and it's not 93% you can smash DI and live. It will kill at 100% guaranteed.

Peach goes even with DDD

And as For snake. I am convinced that match up is even. But for now until I prove that, I'll leave it 60-40:snake. But those 2 matchups Peach can take.

 

[IxxI]

I'd say 55:45 Snake against Peach.

 

[Zankoku]

And as For snake. I am convinced that match up is even. But for now until I prove that, I'll leave it 60-40:snake. But those 2 matchups Peach can take.

I can't really see this happening. While it's true that Peach can get around a lot of Snake's stuff, she has to work twice as hard for it, and the huge difference in survivability (Peach's light weight and average killing power vs Snake's extremely heavy weight and excellent killing power) certainly says something about who has to put more effort into scoring KOs.

 

[Popertop]

I don't remember Dedede being one of Peach's harder matchups, compared to Snake and G&W. Still not to the level of "not even worth playing," though.


Are you sure? I know that as Sheik it's guaranteed at 100%, even with full SDI down and sideways DI, and Peach's hits harder (but deals less damage, strangely enough).

I guess you can camp out D3.

But G&W is doable.

As for Snake: Kosmos at Apex was in a pool of 5 snakes, so he didn't make it out of pools, despite how good he is. Also, he is a much better player than Razer, but he won't beat him because Razer plays Snake.

And yes I am sure. Beaumont housed Praxis after HOBO 16. I survived at 93% with smash DI. It probably kills legit at 95%, but if you wanna be super safe do it at 100%. And you could probably smash DI out of shieks so you get hit with a weaker part of it. I haven't played Light in a long time though, so I dunno.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I can't really see this happening. While it's true that Peach can get around a lot of Snake's stuff, she has to work twice as hard for it, and the huge difference in survivability (Peach's light weight and average killing power vs Snake's extremely heavy weight and excellent killing power) certainly says something about who has to put more effort into scoring KOs.

List your view points on why Peach could not go even a lil more than this, then I will state how she can.

 

[Zankoku]

And yes I am sure. Beaumont housed Praxis after HOBO 16. I survived at 93% with smash DI. It probably kills legit at 95%, but if you wanna be super safe do it at 100%. And you could probably smash DI out of shieks so you get hit with a weaker part of it. I haven't played Light in a long time though, so I dunno.

I dunno about the double hit; it might've just been Wario being way too high of a % to stay there long enough, but the best SDI I've seen in a while couldn't keep him in the right spot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX6x2pfjrko 4:20

List your view points on why Peach could not go even a lil more than this, then I will state how she can.

Those are my points. If Peach has to work significantly harder than Snake in order to achieve the same results, that's what is typically known as a disadvantaged matchup.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Ness' recovery isn't terrible. You'd be surprised how few times I've actually been gimped.
Ohnoes grab release. Wario gets grab screwed, and he's third. Then their's ROB who gets 0-deathed by a few characters, including captain falcon. Donkey kong and olimar also have worse recoveries, and they're both up there.

 

[Nanaki]

Ness' recovery isn't terrible. You'd be surprised how few times I've actually been gimped.
Ohnoes grab release. Wario gets grab screwed, and he's third. Then their's ROB who gets 0-deathed by a few characters, including captain falcon. Donkey kong and olimar also have worse recoveries, and they're both up there.

Are you saying that DK and Olimar have bad recoveries in general, or worse than Ness?

There's no WAY DK's recovery is worse than Ness'

 

[Popertop]

He could still try up and behind and straight behind.

But from those results it doesn't look to hopeful.

And ness Fair covers his recovery very well. Most people underestimate how good his fair is.

 

[Matador]

Is Mario as good against Diddy as Luigi? I'm curious about that matchup.

Not AS good, but it's not a bad matchup for Mario. Pretty close to even if not exactly. Cape is a decent defense against his nanners, especially when he uses them OOS. His fast SH aerials are really good for picking them up as they're being thrown or when they're already on the ground, Mario KO's a little earlier, and he's got a ton of options offstage vs Diddy.

Like any character vs Diddy though, if you don't know the matchup you'll undoubtedly lose.

Edit @ Scorptile: To my knowledge, DK can't protect himself very well offstage. UpB is his main offense and defense.

Ness at least has a few options. If he's forced to use his upB constantly, then you're right. That's generally not the case though.

 

[DanGR]

Ness' recovery isn't terrible. You'd be surprised how few times I've actually been gimped.
Ohnoes grab release. Wario gets grab screwed, and he's third. Then their's ROB who gets 0-deathed by a few characters, including captain falcon. Donkey kong and olimar also have worse recoveries, and they're both up there.

What makes him a mediocre character is the combination of the grab release crud, being much easier to grab than say... wario (just take a look at Ness' range on the ground), his recovery (which isn't too terrible), his light weight, and... his range on the ground. If he did well in those categories, he'd be a much better character.

 

[Matador]

...his recovery (which isn't too terrible), his light weight, and... his range on the ground. If he did well in those categories, he'd be a much better character.

inb4lowermidweight

 

[mountain_tiger]

snake and D3 say hi

and it's not 93% you can smash DI and live. It will kill at 100% guaranteed.

Snake is definitely an annoying matchup for Peach, but it's not unwinnable. It's around 40:60 IMO, meaning that she can win, it's just that she has to work incredibly hard for that win.

As for D3, Peach is generally considered even with King Dedede. Her turnips are good at interrupting his rhythm, her Dair combos work fantastically on him, and she can overall pressure him very well. She can also punish his up B with UTilt or USmash if need be. It could be in her favour if D3 didn't live **** near forever....

 

[DanGR]

inb4lowermidweight

My mistake. Let's rephrase that.

He's light weight compared to the rest of the cast. :3

 

[Nidtendofreak]

40:60 is not "work incredibly hard for that win". 30:70 is "work incredibly hard for that win" Anything worse then 30:70 is unwinable(sp?), the number just means to what degree.

 

[Dark.Pch]

As for Snake: Kosmos at Apex was in a pool of 5 snakes, so he didn't make it out of pools, despite how good he is. Also, he is a much better player than Razer, but he won't beat him because Razer plays Snake.

Kos-Mos could not fight snake at all at that time. I had to teach him how to fight Snakes. He came to me after pools asking me for tips on snake. I also had to teach snake to alot of Peach players. They usually come to me for tips on snake.

Now as for Peach getting at snake. I'll take this one step at a time. First with his camping. Cause this is a common problem I hear alot from Peach players on snake.

Before the COT4 tournament I would lose to snakes that usually camped me, and it got annoying. So At COT4, I played a campy snake named "Nope" Sonn as the fight statred, He just stood where he was and grenade camped me. So what was the first thing I did? I did not rush at him to stop his camping. He did that to get damage off me or have me go to him. So decided to give him something he did not expect.

I remembered grenades take about 3-4 secs to go BOOM. And if one hits you, It has no stun at all. Next thing I put into mind is that Snake has to use a small portion of his shield to drop a grenade. Also took into account that he can only launch 2 at a time and if he launches 2, one has to go BOOM to dish out another. So keep in mind how long it takes one to go BOOM.

So yea,while playing Nope and he is doing this I said to myself "Not going near you" Cause one way or another, he will stop that grenade camping. But he just does not know it yet. When he tossed a grenade my way, I would pick one up and toss it back IF he did not hold it for too long. If not, Float over it and let it go boom. Ether way I am not getting hit. So his plan for damage and making me go to him is already failing.

After that I would just grab a turnip and toss it ether in his area or at a grenade. Three things can happen when you toss a turnip at a grenade:

- It goes BOOM
- It drops in the spot the turnip hit the grenade.
- It gets sent back to snake.

Now while this is going on. Snake shield is getting eaten more by him camping. Why? Because while he goes to drop a grenade with his SHIELD, He has a turnip comming his way, so he has to worry about that. Same time, there is a grenade there. (Keep in mind it has not gone BOOM yet). Now by the time he deals with these 2 problems. You already have another turnip in your hand ready to toss at snake. And when that turnip is sent flying. snake might be in the middle of pulling out a grenade.

Now instead of 2 of them comming at you. it would be mostly one grenade comming at you. You can send more turnips at snake then he can send grenades at you. This is costing his shield cause of him dropping nades and turnips comming at him. So 2 things he needs to be concerned about. And as I said before, if he tosses them at you to quick, toss it right back and have a turnip follow.

"what if he just goes to you, drops a nade and rolls away" It drops it a few feet away from him?"

Better off for you. this helps kill his camping cause Snake can't drop **** on the ground without that shield of his. Snake needs a shield to grenade camp.

Now as this process continues, his shield gets smaller, now you start moving in slowly. To a point through all this, there will be an opening where you can go in and pound him. He can't defend himself cause You just out camped his azz and it costed him his shield. And if he shields, that shield will break. So for all that, now he can't defend himself. Also by outcamping snake, you rack up more damage on him then he WAS suppose to on you. And guess what the best part was? You ready for this? You did not use one kill move. All your moves are fresh. and from that camping you got himt to like, 40-60 (60% is what I believe I got Nope too when I outcamped him) Cause from this not only will turnips hit him, his grenades can too, wether you toss them back at him OR you have turnips hit them and go back to snake.

3-4 secs for grenades to go BOOM. Turnips to get to snake and hit him? 1-2 secs. Also best to mix up turnip tosses in the air and ground. But keep your position. When that shield is getting taken away from shanke, then move in while keeping that camping game going.

So doing this against Nope, I 2-0 him and I think I 2 stocked him one match cause of it. Not sure. But I think I did. This takes patients, if you dont have any against snake and just wanna go to him and dair him cause he is easy to combo and etc, throw this fight out the window now. You are not gonna be a campy snake. Snakes want you to rush him like that. Thus why they camp on you. Patience is IMPORTANT to do this. And once again. You will need a defense game. if you don't have one, your azz is grass. A typical Peach game with the floating and dairs and all that aint working on a campy snake.

 

[mountain_tiger]

40:60 is not "work incredibly hard for that win". 30:70 is "work incredibly hard for that win" Anything worse then 30:70 is unwinable(sp?), the number just means to what degree.

Perhaps, but the point still stands that 40:60 does not mean unwinnable for the person on the receiving end. IMO, a matchup is only unwinnable if it's 20:80 or worse.

 

[kingcobra9]

climbers are so awesome 0-death grabs always help the winning cause

 

[Nanaki]

Not AS good, but it's not a bad matchup for Mario. Pretty close to even if not exactly. Cape is a decent defense against his nanners, especially when he uses them OOS. His fast SH aerials are really good for picking them up as they're being thrown or when they're already on the ground, Mario KO's a little earlier, and he's got a ton of options offstage vs Diddy.

Like any character vs Diddy though, if you don't know the matchup you'll undoubtedly lose.

Edit @ Scorptile: To my knowledge, DK can't protect himself very well offstage. UpB is his main offense and defense.

Ness at least has a few options. If he's forced to use his upB constantly, then you're right. That's generally not the case though.

UpB is his main offense and defense, but it's at least a decent offense and defense. Ness has fair to protect himself, but if he has to upB at all and the opponent sees it coming, he's out a stock. Disjoints bigger than his fair or being hit from above screw his recovery as hard (or harder) than they do DK's, I'd say.

 

[DanGR]

Dark. Pch, You can drop a grenade by spotdodging.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Perhaps, but the point still stands that 40:60 does not mean unwinnable for the person on the receiving end. IMO, a matchup is only unwinnable if it's 20:80 or worse.

40:60 is one character has a noticeable advantage, but either side can win, though the character with the lesser number is going to have to work a bit more for it.

45:55 means that one character has a slight edge, but it can basically go either way easily.

Bowser vs ICs is 25:75. It's "unwinnable" in the sense that the ICs have to SERIOUSLY screw up to lose, but not like say Ganondorf vs ICs (lol 0:100). It's all on the ICs to win or lose the match. The bowser could be perfect, but if the ICs don't mess up, he can't win.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Can we stop arguing about what the numbers mean, please? The point I was making is, although Snake has the edge over Peach, it's not unwinnable for her. Can we just leave it at that and move onto something else, please?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Dark. Pch, You can drop a grenade by spotdodging.

Yea, I forgot about that. But would this screw up the camping? Nah. When he side steps to drop grenades, he takes a few more frames to get the granade then if he was to shield drop then pick up. And while side stepping I can crack him with a turnip, if if lucky, during the side step, I think I can hit he grenade as it drops and set if off and he gets caught in the blast. This I am not to sure about. It looks possible but timing is key for that. It's not something I could depend on for I have to know when you will side step and time a toss.

But a side step drop leaves you in your position a lil longer and gives me more time to send turnips at you.

 

[DanGR]

You're getting too deep. I don't want this to turn into one of those "outcamping debates" where each side throws out "ifs" and "buts". I don't even use either character much less see how that matchup is played out, so I wouldn't know. :3

Have you or any other Peach players consistently outcamped GOOD snake players? That'd be better supporting evidence than an explanation.