The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Darknid]

Dedede will **** you with a stick with a fat thing at the e... wait going a bit too far Shaya.


Dedede's disadvantaged match ups all have a large degree of stage dependance on them. Just about every one of D3's disadvantages I can never win on Final Destination. Take it to Battlefield and I'm 2 stocking some of D3's "30:70s". With stage striking in place, and proper consideration of stages when it comes to match up ratios, I honestly think D3's hardest match up would be 40:60 (ICs could be 35:65...). Inui agrees, don't bother him about it.

Falco isn't so lucky; even on his best stages his counters are still counters... all his counters excel against Falco in just about every legal stage... maybe not Brinstar (lol).

lol what? he has his CPs, sure, but on the neutral he still gets F'd in the A by ICs, Falco, MK, Oli, Pika etc. I've never seen a top tier with so many **** matchups.

There's no comparison between D3, a character with 4 **** matchups not including MK in high tier, and Wario, a character with like 1 legit bad matchup in any tier

 

[Frown]

Olimar has slightly better aerial movement, a higher second jump and gains a little height when using his Pikmin chain. I think this is usually enough to keep him alive, while Ivysaur has to hope that razor leaf or fair hits before he falls too far.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Reflex... question for you.

What do you think about Ivy? I feel like he is holding back PT in general, and thats one of the reasons I don't play PT at all... If people manage to get around playing as Ivy and sticking with majority squirtle and tanking with zard is there a possibility trainer can get better? I dunno as I've never played a PT main in my life.

Ivysaur has a fair amount of matchups where the combination of abysmal air movement and a lack of generally-useful attacks makes the character a pain to use. Granted, it's not hard to get around Ivysaur in most cases, as you can usually stock tank with Ivysaur pretty well if you know what you're going, which makes switching after getting a KO with Squirtle that much more delicious of a prospect.

This aside, Ivysaur's spacing can be great against characters that have to get in to fight, and in those matchups, Ivysaur is actually a nice asset to have.

Charizard's matchups are mostly pretty good; outside of Diddy, I can't think of anything that Charizard goes worse than 40-60 against. Flamethrower and Rock Smash create easy and wonderful spacing that goes a long way. Great tilts are helpful, as well.

I think PT still has potential that has yet to be showcased. I expect him to move up, surely.

 

[Zodac]

somebody had diddy in mid tier :V

 

[Frown]

Somebody had Link in mid tier. :o

 

[SuSa]

Ivysaur has a fair amount of matchups where the combination of abysmal air movement and a lack of generally-useful attacks makes the character a pain to use. Granted, it's not hard to get around Ivysaur in most cases, as you can usually stock tank with Ivysaur pretty well if you know what you're going, which makes switching after getting a KO with Squirtle that much more delicious of a prospect.

This aside, Ivysaur's spacing can be great against characters that have to get in to fight, and in those matchups, Ivysaur is actually a nice asset to have.

Charizard's matchups are mostly pretty good; outside of Diddy, I can't think of anything that Charizard goes worse than 40-60 against. Flamethrower and Rock Smash create easy and wonderful spacing that goes a long way. Great tilts are helpful, as well.

I think PT still has potential that has yet to be showcased. I expect him to move up, surely.

I think the largest part about PT that is holding back is not Ivysaur being gimpable and such. But more or less having to learn essentially 3 whole characters that each play pretty differently from eachother.

However I still don't see everyone's hate on Ivysaur. Yah, you can get screwed out of a stock but Ivy can hold her own and Razor Leaf is probably my favorite projectile in this entire game. It props opponents up perfectly for a grab, and Ivy's grab game is pretty beast. Nair > Bullet Seed is great for 25-30% (better players with good SDI) or 35-45% (players with relatively poor SDI...) and from there they are already halfway dead.

Although... I've had people live well up to 230-240% against my Ivysaur because I couldn't land any of her kill moves. Just kept racking up damage with Razor Leave, bair, and nair...

*needs to lurk the PT boards moar.... PT is probably my most reliable secondary....*

 

[SilverSpark]

Yay for Pika rising 3 spots! I'm so proud... -sniffle-

 

[Shaya]

lol what? he has his CPs, sure, but on the neutral he still gets F'd in the A by ICs, Falco, MK, Oli, Pika etc. I've never seen a top tier with so many **** matchups.

There's no comparison between D3, a character with 4 **** matchups not including MK in high tier, and Wario, a character with like 1 legit bad matchup in any tier

You're a bit silly.
You're implying and stating that those match ups are '**** match ups'
WHEN the character has the 3rd best tournament representation (IIRC over total amount of tournaments since Ankoku started hes 3rd as well, 4th at worst) with 500 billion **** match ups, how about you do the math?
Similar logic was applied to Wario at one point.

Dedede isn't ***** by ANY of those characters, as I said it's stage dependant!
They have (oh the irony) gay cgs that rack up considerable damage. But guess what? Dedede is the ****ing heaviest character in the game with DI, and other than MK and Pikachu, all those characters are HUGE BEACONS OF **** for d3's gimping game.

D3 is one of the only characters in the game to actually outspace some of IC's broken crap (hallo blizzard). With the right stage Dedede becomes a troublesome match up for the ICs (his only issue is his size and speed allowing him to be more 'easily' grabbed).
Without a large enough stage for Falco to phantasm away for 7 minutes (Battlefield... Lylat...), Falco will not only have a hard time killing D3 (like he does on every stage), but can't indefinitely avoid the destruction d3 can force onto Falco through easy throws off the stage, ***** recovery, and invincibility frames on his utilt going straight through his silly phantasm, and on those smaller stages, d3 will always be an ftilt away; D3 PS'n all of Falco's lasers while D3 gets closer is going to win, eventually. It's just an exhaustive and over all gay match up.
Pika is unbelievably similar to Falco; I'm pretty sure I've heard Pika mains say it's no better than 60:40, maybe EVEN.
You're silly for mentioning Meta Knight. If MK can't get d3 off stage, MK struggles. Wasn't it M2K who said "Dedede vs MK is more even than you think"? I don't see Atomsk complaining as he always getting top 4 in one of the highest saturation of MK regions in the WORLD.
Lolimar gets gimped hard, and D3 has reliable down throw tech chases on him? What? D3 also outranges Olimar's moves? Only thing D3 doesn't outprio is purple pikmin with his jab, dtilt and bair? Oh, right, D3 gets *****. Disregard this then!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

To be fair, Pokemon Trainer's base attributes were heavily ignored at first because of the perception that he sucked. Which is ignorant since unlike other low tiers, two-thirds of his overall moveset are composed of a high C/bottom B tier character and a low C tier character. Don't get me wrong, I acknowledge Wolf is good, but he didn't have to work to ascend the tier list; he was just placed up relatively high and he gradually descended down the list.

I pretty much agree with Supermodel from Paris that players of characters like PT, ZSS, Mario (not currently, but he shows signs of being the next tier list's rising star character), Sonic, Wario, Peach and Diddy Kong, whom were initially over 5 positions off from their presumed optimal position, had to work their butts off to simply get the ball rolling, where as simplistic characters that were initially considered high (compared to other characters currently occupying the same tier with them) only moved down when other characters userped them.

It is a common reoccuring theme: Characters generally are allowed to keep their position until those lower than them prove their worth and promptly ascend the list (Donkey Kong and Samus are the only apparent exceptions to this rule as we see the effect of DDD on DK's success and that Samus sucks.) The only problem is that lower characters have to work like HELL just to noticably move up while the players of higher characters are not burdened with the burden of proof that they deserve their particular position.

Example: NO character made a fall as big as the rises of Olimar and Sonic in the second and third list respectively.

This is basically how I feel about it. Other than some vague notion that, say, GAW is good, there's no proof that he actually is. GAW doesn't place well, traditionally, and there are a lot of good players playing him.

Characters like ZSS, Toon Link, and to an extent even Fox only have a few players, but these players place pretty well. However, they aren't really moving. GAW hasn't really been consistently placing in months and yet he's stayed high because of notions spawned when the game was released, and he's not moving either.

I've said it a few times before, but gamers are just conservative people. There won't be a change until something absolutely rocks their perceptions, and then the character will be lucky to get "5 spots" in their eyes.

 

[Marcbri]

You're a bit silly.
You're implying and stating that those match ups are '**** match ups'
WHEN the character has the 3rd best tournament representation (IIRC over total amount of tournaments since Ankoku started hes 3rd as well, 4th at worst) with 500 billion **** match ups, how about you do the math?
Similar logic was applied to Wario at one point.

Dedede isn't ***** by ANY of those characters, as I said it's stage dependant!
They have (oh the irony) gay cgs that rack up considerable damage. But guess what? Dedede is the ****ing heaviest character in the game with DI, and other than MK and Pikachu, all those characters are HUGE BEACONS OF **** for d3's gimping game.

D3 is one of the only characters in the game to actually outspace some of IC's broken crap (hallo blizzard). With the right stage Dedede becomes a troublesome match up for the ICs (his only issue is his size and speed allowing him to be more 'easily' grabbed).
Without a large enough stage for Falco to phantasm away for 7 minutes (Battlefield... Lylat...), Falco will not only have a hard time killing D3 (like he does on every stage), but can't indefinitely avoid the destruction d3 can force onto Falco through easy throws off the stage, ***** recovery, and invincibility frames on his utilt going straight through his silly phantasm, and on those smaller stages, d3 will always be an ftilt away; D3 PS'n all of Falco's lasers while D3 gets closer is going to win, eventually. It's just an exhaustive and over all gay match up.
Pika is unbelievably similar to Falco; I'm pretty sure I've heard Pika mains say it's no better than 60:40, maybe EVEN.
You're silly for mentioning Meta Knight. If MK can't get d3 off stage, MK struggles. Wasn't it M2K who said "Dedede vs MK is more even than you think"? I don't see Atomsk complaining as he always getting top 4 in one of the highest saturation of MK regions in the WORLD.
Lolimar gets gimped hard, and D3 has reliable down throw tech chases on him? What? D3 also outranges Olimar's moves? Only thing D3 doesn't outprio is purple pikmin with his jab, dtilt and bair? Oh, right, D3 gets *****. Disregard this then!

This is true. DDD's match-up thread is really innacurate in many things, the characters that ''****'' DDD have actually only a slight advantage and the ones who have a slight advantage are actually even or even in D3's favour ( DDD doesn't lose to kirby, diddy or zelda for example).

DDD is way better than most people think.

 

[Red Arremer]

@Supermodel from Paris:
I want to state the fact that the exact position on the tier list doesn't matter as much as the characters around the one you're looking at.
Take as an example the D Tier. I personally think that the whole D Tier is completely interchangeable since the potential of the characters in this tier is almost the same. It's a perfect example because it's a whole tier.
The same could actually be said for the A Tier, as well, except Kirby and R.O.B., as they are clearly not on top of A Tier.

So, moving X spots does not mean much, unless this character enters a whole new potential group, such as Sonic entering Mid Tier or Wario going into Top Tier. That's what you have to majorly look at.
If Falcon is now 3rd worst or absolutely worst makes pretty much nil difference since he still sucks balls.

 

[Shaya]

Protip:

Every character who has occupied 3rd in the tier list has a gay chaingrab on Donkey Kong that usually means DEATH.

Hence if you want your character to be 3rd in the game, you have to put more work into your gaying of Donkey Kong, sorry guys.

But yeah, I like the progression of brawl, for so long it was all MATCH UPS ITROLLRAPEYOU; but stages are becoming more and more and MORE important.

In a stage striking system, D3 is a very safe character. In a stage striking system, the only character who is potentially problematic (in S tier) is Falco only [having **** match ups that some starter stages can't really save him from].

But yeah, D3's match up thread is heavily outdated, people over equate his ability to get combo'd and if he doesn't have a cg on your character, he must automaticly lose 40:60 or worse.

 

[-Mars-]

Am I the only person who feels like ZSS and Lucario should both be ahead of Kirby? I don't think it would be that much of a reach to make that statement.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@Supermodel from Paris:
I want to state the fact that the exact position on the tier list doesn't matter as much as the characters around the one you're looking at.
Take as an example the D Tier. I personally think that the whole D Tier is completely interchangeable since the potential of the characters in this tier is almost the same. It's a perfect example because it's a whole tier.
The same could actually be said for the A Tier, as well, except Kirby and R.O.B., as they are clearly not on top of A Tier.

So, moving X spots does not mean much, unless this character enters a whole new potential group, such as Sonic entering Mid Tier or Wario going into Top Tier. That's what you have to majorly look at.
If Falcon is now 3rd worst or absolutely worst makes pretty much nil difference since he still sucks balls.

Do you truly believe that ZSS is interchangeable with Pit and Lucario in terms of recent results and viability in the tourney scene overall? Or that she's even interchangeable with Kirby or ROB?

I don't.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm not saying that about characters that are not in the overall correct place (Zero Suit Samus belongs to middle of A Tier, so basically one "potential" step above her current position), but characters that do share similar potential and are - at least at the current state of the metagame - in a correct position.

The exact position matters less than the "area" the character is in, simply because Brawl is rather balanced and comparing as well as positioning characters in the same potential groups is extremely difficult.

 

[Frown]

But yeah, D3's match up thread is heavily outdated, people over equate his ability to get combo'd and if he doesn't have a cg on your character, he must automaticly lose 40:60 or worse.

Very true. DDD is still a very good character without his chaingrab.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm not saying that about characters that are not in the overall correct place (Zero Suit Samus belongs to middle of A Tier, so basically one "potential" step above her current position), but characters that do share similar potential and are - at least at the current state of the metagame - in a correct position.

The exact position matters less than the "area" the character is in, simply because Brawl is rather balanced and comparing as well as positioning characters in the same potential groups is extremely difficult.

In fairness, the examples I gave (Fox, in particular) are a step above their current positions, too. Fox I think has been severely underestimated because he wasn't as **** as he was in melee.

I want to say though it's unrelated that I think my assessments of the various characters are unbiased, and I hope you agree. There's a tendency to think that anyone who thinks the character they play is better than the tier list indicates are just biased fanboys, but my dissatisfaction with the current tier list doesn't stem from just my character. It's more about me having an ideological difference with the SBR in what a tier list should represent; that is, what chance your character has of placing in a tournament.

From the very middle down (Peach south) I think you guys got it right, with a few exceptions (as long as we're assuming that anyone in the same tier is interchangeable). From DK up things get hazy.

I'm not sure anyone could argue ROB has a better chance of winning than anyone in high mid, for instance. I think that if anyone could argue that ZSS has a better chance of winning than Marth, for instance (to use an example I've used before) if the players are equally skilled, then it would be a serious argument worth having and not just a throwaway. So who is "higher tiered"? Marth because he ***** the lower half of the cast?

I don't mean to be arguing for pages on the viability of one character. I'm also not here to troll. I want to know exactly what it is that this list is trying to show so maybe I can better understand why characters are where they are. For instance, King Dedede doesn't win many tourneys on his own, despite completely cancelling out a good deal of characters himself. Is he really S tier material in that case (and yes I'm aware that someone in this thread said you guys argued a lot about King Dedede)?

Again, I feel a lot of characters are seen as being better than they are because of the days when they were winning and were very good, comparitively.

 

[Shaya]

Marth doesn't **** the lower half of the cast (some exceptions).
HE JUST BEATS EVERYONE NOT NAMED META KNIGHT.
And the hazey line between D3 and Snake is ever quaking back and forward.

D3 is an amazing character; and what you have to realise is that if you aren't using MK or Snake, you most likely aren't going to win in this current tournament scene.

Marth is indefinitely the most viable character in A tier. He stems the gap between S and A tier quite effectively in my opinion.

Whilst I am fully aware that ZSS is a GOOD character, I feel your bias tends towards DARK PCH levels within your passionite 'hype' can give people the wrong idea. My biggest observations of ZSS's weaknesses are this:
Out of Shield
Shield Pressure
I'm not aware how a ZSS really compensates/overcomes these at all. She is coming about as being a combo queen, with nothing short of amazing amounts of high damage combos on many of the cast and not effectively 'losing' in terms of BASES to any character other than S tier (and some of A tier). But whilst I may be ignorant, I don't know any of ZSS's options when it comes to shields in general; if ZSS doesn't have utmost solutions to those two things, she'll always be less viable than Marth, Dedede, Snake, Meta Knight and Wario (Falco and Diddy are S tier for other reasons).

As I've said in this topic earlier... Lucario is the swordsman archetype. He is naturally high in options, yet his bases aren't as superb as Marths or Meta Knights. Does ZSS have the ability to overcome the swordsman's options whilst (arguably) having better bases than Lucario?

 

[Greward]

DDD maybe is better without chaingrab than with. His techchases are horribly good...
His "bad matchups" arent worse than 4-6 probably.

 

[ANTi_]

Falco is too good against DDD lol.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Whilst I am fully aware that ZSS is a GOOD character, I feel your bias tends towards DARK PCH levels within your passionite 'hype' can give people the wrong idea.

No way. I chose to play ZSS in part because of her potential, not because I happen to really love Samus or anything else. If in a year I'm wrong and she turns out to be garbage I'll come back and eat my words.

My biggest observations of ZSS's weaknesses are this:
Out of Shield
Shield Pressure

Acknowledged. She has others, too, such as the fact that you never really want to be above anyone in the air. That happens to be a disadvantage a lot of characters (including Marth) have, and one ZSS actually exploits to her advantage, but she still has it.

I'm not aware how a ZSS really compensates/overcomes these at all. She is coming about as being a combo queen, with nothing short of amazing amounts of high damage combos on many of the cast and not effectively 'losing' in terms of BASES to any character other than S tier (and some of A tier). But whilst I may be ignorant, I don't know any of ZSS's options when it comes to shields in general; if ZSS doesn't have utmost solutions to those two things, she'll always be less viable than Marth, Dedede, Snake, Meta Knight and Wario (Falco and Diddy are S tier for other reasons).

The question is how many characters can really exploit this weakness, not whether or not she has it. Weaknesses don't exist in a vacuum. MK has a lot of actual weaknesses, too, it's just that few characters can really exploit them so it doesn't matter. The characters that can effectively exploit her poor shield game are Sheik and Falco, and hey, we lose to them. ZSS is pretty good at being evasive. She has the tools to avoid shield pressure. Generally speaking if you are hit by something and are forced to take a hit out of shield you were doing something wrong.

That's not to say it's not a weakness, though, and it isn't to say she's never affected by it.

As for actual OOS options, her best is rising uair and it's actually really good, it's just situational. Utilt is really good, too, but don't miss, heh. Ftilt is nice, and short hopped nair is good as well. They're all good options, they're just situational. She doesn't have any OOS options that answer every question. That's OK, though, because most characters don't ask every question.

She also doesn't really lose to anyone in A tier, attributes-wise.

As I've said in this topic earlier... Lucario is the swordsman archetype. He is naturally high in options, yet his bases aren't as superb as Marths or Meta Knights. Does ZSS have the ability to overcome the swordsman's options whilst (arguably) having better bases than Lucario?

ZSS is a swordsman in the air and a brawler on the ground. All her aerials have disjointed hitboxes and beat most other aerials if spaced right, including Lucario's and including Wario or MK's.

On the ground, you are correct in that her game against these archtypes is hard to deal with. That's a weakness we all agree on. However, once in the air, we win without question, and she has the tools to get you in the air. She isn't restricted to keeping fights on the ground.

EDIT: I misread. She has worse "bases" than Lucario but her tools are strong enough that it doesn't matter. Bases are important, but as you said in another post, they aren't everything and that's why ROB and GAW are moving down.

 

[Shaya]

Sounds like A tier.
I would not be overtly disappointed with ZSS reaching top 10. S tier is a long reach away though.

However, about the 'shield options' ->
Shields are great, really really great. If shields weren't in this game, Captain Falcon would be HIGH TIER (lolololol).
One of the best OoS options is grabbing, hence why shields are godly for Dedede, Charizard, etc
The next best is up b (not many up smashes in this game have become 'viable' OoS options... be interesting to see if this changes in the next iteration of smash) with Marth, Bowser, MK, G&W (kinda). A LOT of characters still have great Up B options, next weakness of ZSS.
Then there's the aerials. Your main (or can I say real argument on ZSS's viability as an upper A tier character) is that her aerials, especially out of shield can compare to Marth, Wario, MK, Pikachu EVEN! Yeah I can see her being up there in this regard.
Especially as from what I can gather... her disjointed legs makes her hurtbox incredibly small? Wow! Is this only while the hitbox is out though?

ZSS is probably equal or better than Marth in terms of Juggles (esp. damage output). However now she has that dash attack thing... she suddenly has quite a good horizontal option... even if it isn't aerial...
A lot of character's beat MK's dair in terms of disjoint, does ZSS's aerials beat Marth's in this same regard? (Out of interest).

The real statement here is, if she had constant and reliable out of shield options, and better means of applying shield pressure on an opponent, she'd definitely be upper A tier. And her potential would have been found a lot earlier than it did as well.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sounds like A tier.
I would not be overtly disappointed with ZSS reaching top 10. S tier is a long reach away though.

Agreed. ZSS doesn't have very many "****" matchups (ROB, ICs, Kirby, Game and Watch, -maybe-, a few low tiers). She has a lot of slight advantages and 50:50s, but not many situations in which her presence would completely invalidate many other characters. She's not (currently) S tier material.

Then there's the aerials. Your main (or can I say real argument on ZSS's viability as an upper A tier character) is that her aerials, especially out of shield can compare to Marth, Wario, MK, Pikachu EVEN! Yeah I can see her being up there in this regard.
Especially as from what I can gather... her disjointed legs makes her hurtbox incredibly small? Wow! Is this only while the hitbox is out though?

Her hurtbox is always small, but is only disjointedly small (lol, made up words)while the hitbox is out. Her legs aren't always disjointed. What fun would that be, though?

ZSS is probably equal or better than Marth in terms of Juggles (esp. damage output). However now she has that dash attack thing... she suddenly has quite a good horizontal option... even if it isn't aerial...
A lot of character's beat MK's dair in terms of disjoint, does ZSS's aerials beat Marth's in this same regard? (Out of interest).

Uair and bair, yes. Not Fair. Not Nair, either. Bair and Uair definitely beat marth's fair and dair, though. I doubt her bair beats his nair.

The real statement here is, if she had constant and reliable out of shield options, and better means of applying shield pressure on an opponent, she'd definitely be upper A tier. And her potential would have been found a lot earlier than it did as well.

The OOS thing is a pain, but ZSS has the tools to avoid shield pressure. Not 100% of the time of course.

As a matter of fact, one of my least favorite things about ZSS is when you land on a platform, in say, Battlefield, and there's someone below you. You can't really do much. Your best option is to run the opposite direction and go for a sideb or falling bair/uair. With that said, Battlefield is actually one of her best stages, so it's all about how you play the game. You wouldn't end up in that situation unless you made a pretty big error, just like you wouldn't get tether gimped without screwing up.

 

[Shaya]

Oh, but why I say ZSS's current position is warranted is because of the shield options still not being fully worked out. But her progression is still apparent, don't you worry.

 

[CRASHiC]

Wow. Last night, DDD's metagame advanced quite a deal.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237961
This is the first major development in a long time.

 

[Gwobo]

I think TL is right where is should be.

 

[Deleted member]

Shaya, just FYI, ZSS' utilt OOS is one of the better OOS options in the game.
I heard someone describing ZSS (maybe it was DSF or something i dont remember), and he was just like "Up Tilt out of shield".

It has suprising horizontal range in the begining, and it puts the opponent where they really dont wanna be. Above ZSS.

Dunno much else about the character, except isnt side b a pretty good shield pressure move, as well as neutral B (you can folow the neutral b for a fair on their shield, or run behind and pivot grab).

 

[Darknid]

You're a bit silly.
You're implying and stating that those match ups are '**** match ups'
WHEN the character has the 3rd best tournament representation (IIRC over total amount of tournaments since Ankoku started hes 3rd as well, 4th at worst) with 500 billion **** match ups, how about you do the math?
Similar logic was applied to Wario at one point.

No point is made here, so I don't know what you want me to say.

Dedede isn't ***** by ANY of those characters, as I said it's stage dependant!
They have (oh the irony) gay cgs that rack up considerable damage. But guess what? Dedede is the ****ing heaviest character in the game with DI, and other than MK and Pikachu, all those characters are HUGE BEACONS OF **** for d3's gimping game.

First off, D3 isn't anywhere near as hard to kill as DK, and with good DI he doesn't last longer than Bowser. I have very little trouble killing D3 unless my character has killing problems. Look at the characters I mentioned. ICs, Falco, Oli, Pika..ICs and Oli don't have kill problems while Falco and Pika rack up damage on D3 like a mother****er, which evens it out.

The rest is a wall of text, thanks for that.

D3 is one of the only characters in the game to actually outspace some of IC's broken crap (hallo blizzard). With the right stage Dedede becomes a troublesome match up for the ICs (his only issue is his size and speed allowing him to be more 'easily' grabbed).

Are you not understanding that the stage will be a neutral at first, then your/your opponent's choice, then your/your opponent's choice? Yeah, you have good CPs. Great.

Without a large enough stage for Falco to phantasm away for 7 minutes (Battlefield... Lylat...), Falco will not only have a hard time killing D3 (like he does on every stage), but can't indefinitely avoid the destruction d3 can force onto Falco through easy throws off the stage, ***** recovery, and invincibility frames on his utilt going straight through his silly phantasm, and on those smaller stages, d3 will always be an ftilt away; D3 PS'n all of Falco's lasers while D3 gets closer is going to win, eventually. It's just an exhaustive and over all gay match up.

I had a good laugh at this.. Falco makes D3 his ***** up close, and will be lasering anyway which makes F tilt pretty useless. You only get hit by D3 utilt if you're stupid, to be honest. There are situations where it's very hard to avoid but mostly it's on you if you get hit by it.

Falco's SHDL is lagless, he will react if you get close enough.

Pika is unbelievably similar to Falco; I'm pretty sure I've heard Pika mains say it's no better than 60:40, maybe EVEN.
You're silly for mentioning Meta Knight. If MK can't get d3 off stage, MK struggles. Wasn't it M2K who said "Dedede vs MK is more even than you think"? I don't see Atomsk complaining as he always getting top 4 in one of the highest saturation of MK regions in the WORLD.

I actually didn't mention MK as a **** matchup, first off, and second Pika racks up damage pretty quickly, especially with his 0-100+ CG on D3, and won't be gimped 9 times out of 10(and that's generous).

Lolimar gets gimped hard, and D3 has reliable down throw tech chases on him? What? D3 also outranges Olimar's moves? Only thing D3 doesn't outprio is purple pikmin with his jab, dtilt and bair? Oh, right, D3 gets *****. Disregard this then!

What? D3 gets outcamped like a maw****a? What? You shouldn't be getting grabs in on a good oli? Huh? Oli combos D3 to 50-60% and kills early? D3's jab is garbage, dude, his dtilt is slow and bair won't hit unless you land with it, and get the landing lag.

Everybody knows if you do things perfectly, Oli is the best character in the game. D3 is extremely slow and can't approach oli for ****.

 

[Shaya]

Ahuh, who are some of the top tiers in this game?
What? Characters with good range? Unheard of? Surely you jest? They mustn't exist. And by definition the best OoS options in the game are up smashes/up bs/grabs/or if the character has an aerial and jump that comes out in less than 7 frames... that.
7 frame handicap on that utilt pretty much gives most characters in the game enough time to make their ALMOST completely safe moves definitely safe.
And then you have the ones with such good aerial mobility they don't even have to worry about range.

Side B is not constant shield pressure, whilst it's not exactly punishable if it hits the shield, you can't keep up the pressure.
Running behind and pivot grabbing is a generic option...


-----------------


Darknid:
*facepalm*

You don't really know anything about D3 or those match ups, do you?
Your original post mentioned MK anyway.

If I wanted to get really nitpicky here, I'd start off with how it's undeniable that D3's bair, multiple jumps, massive weight and fast fall speed gives him the best survivability in the game.
Then I'd mention that Specials can't be fast falled in brawl, and SHDL while a massive nuisance isn't lagless -> PERFECT SHIELDS SAY HI.

But I'm a bit lazy, because you generally ignored everything I said for "NAH D3 GETS ***** DEAL WITH IT".
Third best tournament results in brawl, consistant for it's entire life time. Best D3 mains in America deal with these so called **** match ups and still win.

 

[Darknid]

Ahuh, who are some of the top tiers in this game?
What? Characters with good range? Unheard of? Surely you jest? They mustn't exist. And by definition the best OoS options in the game are up smashes/up bs/grabs/or if the character has an aerial and jump that comes out in less than 7 frames... that.
7 frame handicap on that utilt pretty much gives most characters in the game enough time to make their ALMOST completely safe moves definitely safe.
And then you have the ones with such good aerial mobility they don't even have to worry about range.

Side B is not constant shield pressure, whilst it's not exactly punishable if it hits the shield, you can't keep up the pressure.
Running behind and pivot grabbing is a generic option...

Side B isn't good shield pressure at all, because most characters shieldgrab approach that move.

 

[Darknid]

As for D3 without the chaingrab, I did a comparison post on aib between non-cg d3 and bowser(bottom of mid tier, fellas). Not only were they comparable, but Bowser was the clear superior in terms of pros/cons and matchups.

 

[mountain_tiger]

As for D3 without the chaingrab, I did a comparison post on aib between non-cg d3 and bowser(bottom of mid tier, fellas). Not only were they comparable, but Bowser was the clear superior in terms of pros/cons and matchups.

Even without the chaingrab, D3 woudl still be a solid hig hier character. Ignoring his chaingrab, he still has a great grab game. His DThrow can tech chase on light characters well, and BThrow does 16% right off the bat. Plus he has a grab range the size of Texas.

Looking past that, he also has a very versatile and annoyign projectile (the Waddle Doos), his Bair is long ranged and powerful (great for edgeguarding) and UTilt is quick and kills lighter characters at 100%. Plus he has good range on attacks such as FTilt and DTilt.

If D3 had no chaingrab, yes he'd be lower, but he's still be good. Middle of B Tier I reckon.

Edit: Oh yeah, and there's the fact that he survives forever...

 

[Darknid]

Darknid:
*facepalm*

You don't really know anything about D3 or those match ups, do you?
Your original post mentioned MK anyway.

Yeah, I didn't include him in the 4 **** matchups.

If I wanted to get really nitpicky here, I'd start off with how it's undeniable that D3's bair, multiple jumps, massive weight and fast fall speed gives him the best survivability in the game.

Well, you could say that but you'd be wrong. With good DI, DK survives longer in all directons. D3 survives off of the top longer than Bowser, but not off of the side. It's common knowledge that DK is the hardest to kill.

Then I'd mention that Specials can't be fast falled in brawl, and SHDL while a massive nuisance isn't lagless -> PERFECT SHIELDS SAY HI.

The second laser is literally lagless.

But I'm a bit lazy, because you generally ignored everything I said for "NAH D3 GETS ***** DEAL WITH IT".
Third best tournament results in brawl, consistant for it's entire life time. Best D3 mains in America deal with these so called **** match ups and still win.

Because everything you say is wrong or irrelevant.

How often does a great D3 face a great Pikachu, Oli, ICs or Falco? How often do they win? and even so, a player can overcome **** matchups with enough skill(like a boss)

 

[Greward]

D3 easily avoid everyone of pika's kill moves, pikachu has no ways to kill DDD and the penguin will live to 200% if he's careful. Oh, ftilt stops thunderjolts.
Falco only **** DDD if you are playing on FD, on other stages DDD can air camp falco. Oh, falco has no ways of killing and approaching DDD? It dont matter if DDD is at 250%, he can be throwing waddles while falco lasers until he get a fattie and kill falco at 100%. If falco try a dacus ddd shields it and utilt or shieldgrab. Oh, every DDD's tilts and aerials stop the illusion.
DDD can air camp ICs to hell. Spaced Ftilt and bair dont leave space to get grabbed.
Olimar is the one i think can counter DDD hardly.

 

[Shaya]

What am I dealing with here?

Dark Pch
Darknid
Dark Nid?
???????

"Because everything you say is wrong or irrelevant"

Wow... just wow. Not only do you go
1. I ignore every single facet that helps momentum cancelling, that D3 EXCELS in, to then call it "wrong or irrelevant"
2. Ignore the fact that for Falco to actually have a lagless laser he has to JUMP FIRST. And this time is obviously not lagless, but it must be "wrong or irrelevant".
3. Falco and Pika rack up damage through cgs. Pika's 100% is situational at BEST. Once it's over D3 continues to be the tank with one of the highest damage spreads IN THE GAME and survability that is considered the best in the game... but this must be "wrong or irrelevant".
4. Not getting grabs on any character is facetious, Olimar can't "run away indefinitely", by the way dtilt comes out in 8 frames... I guess that makes it slow, not fast or just plainly "wrong or irrelevant". D3 only needs ONE GRAB to kill Olimar near an edge at almost ANY percent. Dtilt trips easily, has great range, out prios the pikmin and IS FAST! Oli gets wrecked by down throw tech chases, and "everyone knows if you play perfect..." hahaha talking about being "wrong or irrelevant"?
5. Pika has no auto cancellable aerials and no super aerial mobility nor super range. Sounds like a shield grab is "wrong or irrelevant"! Pika still has issues killing D3.

You just doesn't know what's wrong or irrelevant!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Dude, Shaya, it's Darknid. This happened when he "debated" about Marth before, and Ike before that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

What am I dealing with here?

Dark Pch
Darknid
Dark Nid?
???????

"Because everything you say is wrong or irrelevant"

Wow... just wow. Not only do you go
1. I ignore every single facet that helps momentum cancelling, that D3 EXCELS in, to then call it "wrong or irrelevant"
2. Ignore the fact that for Falco to actually have a lagless laser he has to JUMP FIRST. And this time is obviously not lagless, but it must be "wrong or irrelevant".
3. Falco and Pika rack up damage through cgs. Pika's 100% is situational at BEST. Once it's over D3 continues to be the tank with one of the highest damage spreads IN THE GAME and survability that is considered the best in the game... but this must be "wrong or irrelevant".
4. Not getting grabs on any character is facetious, Olimar can't "run away indefinitely", by the way dtilt comes out in 8 frames... I guess that makes it slow, not fast or just plainly "wrong or irrelevant". D3 only needs ONE GRAB to kill Olimar near an edge at almost ANY percent. Dtilt trips easily, has great range, out prios the pikmin and IS FAST! Oli gets wrecked by down throw tech chases, and "everyone knows if you play perfect..." hahaha talking about being "wrong or irrelevant"?
5. Pika has no auto cancellable aerials and no super aerial mobility nor super range. Sounds like a shield grab is "wrong or irrelevant"! Pika still has issues killing D3.

You just doesn't know what's wrong or irrelevant!

wow... double SWF meme ****.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Moving away from King Dedede, who thinks that Link > Captain Falcon? Because I do.

Granted, both of them have big problems, and aren't very good, but Link is clearly better than Captain Falcon. Although Captain Falcon has a slightly better recovery (still crap, though), Link beats him in a number of other attributes. For a start, Link has much more range and priority than Captain Falcon does, and in addition Link has some decent projectiles, while Captain Falcon has none whatsoever. Not to mention that Link actully has some sort of approach...

And when it comes to matchups, Link's aren't great, but at least he has a couple of good matchups; Captain Falcon has none whatsoever. Falcon's best matchups are against himself and Ganondorf, both at 50:50. All in all, Link is just plain better than Captain Falcon. However, I do agree that Captain Falcon > Ganondorf.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think Link is better than Falcon. I use Link alot for fun (should have used him in tourny, but I go all Peach)

Link has good spacing and he has a nasty ground game. I usually mixed his ground, projectile and spacing game. Its all really good. Seems the thing that kills link is his speed along with his projectile use or ground game. And once he is off the stage he gets it bad.

Link can approach alright. I think he is a character that is underratted.

 

[Frown]

Falcon has HORRIBLE range, while Link's is quite good. Yes, Link>Falcon