The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Super_Sonic8677]

I think it would be best to wait at least until the one year aniversary mark before we make such an important decision. Important discoveries are still being made. The game is still way too young for something as drastic as this.

The way the game is right now I'd say,yes,MK is worthy of being banned. BUT,will the future bring something new that will at least bring characters more up to almost par or better with MK? That is an important possibility that no one can deny so early in the game's development.

But if things continues the way they are with MK and the Metagame does not improve against him or worse,then I believe a ban is inevitable. We must figure out a way to balance the cast against him,if we are to keep him.

 

[-Ran]

Given that amount of play against MK, somebody will find a solution if one exists.

Let's assume that this solution isn't a simple game play choice or strategy. I believe we can safely assume that, at least for a minute. The only thing that would reduce the use of Meta Knights in a final would be a character that would be a very -hard- counter. Let's even say it's something that's relatively easy to master [given the great motivation there would be.]

For a second, let's imagine a world where Marth is found to be a hard counter to Meta Knight. It's found out that Marth is able to Grab/Release Meta Knight to 200% damage, just as it was found he could do to Lucas/Ness. There's no escape for Meta knight. Meta Knight is no longer viable to use against someone who knows the Grab/release, which is quickly popularized. A few staunch Meta Knight supporters lobby for the move to be banned, since it makes Meta Knight no longer viable except as a counter pick when the rules don't allow the other to change characters. Everyone begins to pick Double Blind first round, so that they can get at least one round with Meta Knight. It quickly becomes a mind game in itself to decide if you're going to use Meta knight and risk playing against Marth.

That's really a sad future. =(

 

[adumbrodeus]

Let's assume that this solution isn't a simple game play choice or strategy. I believe we can safely assume that, at least for a minute. The only thing that would reduce the use of Meta Knights in a final would be a character that would be a very -hard- counter. Let's even say it's something that's relatively easy to master [given the great motivation there would be.]

For a second, let's imagine a world where Marth is found to be a hard counter to Meta Knight. It's found out that Marth is able to Grab/Release Meta Knight to 200% damage, just as it was found he could do to Lucas/Ness. There's no escape for Meta knight. Meta Knight is no longer viable to use against someone who knows the Grab/release, which is quickly popularized. A few staunch Meta Knight supporters lobby for the move to be banned, since it makes Meta Knight no longer viable except as a counter pick when the rules don't allow the other to change characters. Everyone begins to pick Double Blind first round, so that they can get at least one round with Meta Knight. It quickly becomes a mind game in itself to decide if you're going to use Meta knight and risk playing against Marth.

That's really a sad future. =(

I was suggesting a more generalized discovery.

Regardless, a single hard counter certainly does not make a character completely unviable. Look at DK.

Double blinds are always a mindgame anyway, it's part of the strategy.

 

[kiranzcontent]

i think it should be banned. DOnt aske me why, but i feel it so



_____________________
hotel sausalito Monavie Acai Berry Juice Blend Plastic Surgeons UK Internet Security Software

 

[Roy_R]

Fox wasn't banned in melee because he could be gimped. Metaknight can't be gimped. I think this is the main problem...that it's almost impossible to gimp metaknight while he can gimp any character in the game

 

[Wrexsoul]

I was suggesting a more generalized discovery.

Regardless, a single hard counter certainly does not make a character completely unviable. Look at DK.

Double blinds are always a mindgame anyway, it's part of the strategy.

DK isn't nowhere near the level of popularity MK is though. In Ran Iji's scenario, it all ends up revolving around MK, and his one counter, unlike the situation with DK today. And yes, it'd be kinda sad if it ended up being like that :/.

 

[-Ran]

I was suggesting a more generalized discovery.

Then you're hoping for too much. We cannot assume that everyone is so blind so that not ONE of us have found a general weakness in Meta Knight. The only thing that would change this would be if an L-Canceling caliber technique would pop up, but that would change the game completely. Can we hold out for such a dream solution?

Or, should we live in the current reality?

 

[Shark Week]

my only fear with waiting much longer to ban mk is that the competitive scene will simply continue to deteriorate.

i agree it's kind of early to be making such a huge decision as this one, but in the time we take to really think this out, how much damage is metaknight going to be doing to the competitive scene?

 

[choknater]

I think Marth can grab release CG metaknight, lol.

anyways...

I have little doubt that once the metagame matures, the talk of MK bans will be even worse than it is now. Why? Because the anti-banned people speaks of the metagame not being matured, meaning no character is at their top level of their game (which is true, the Mario boards just recently discovered an awesome AT). But I don't believe that matters, because if the previous statement is true, that also goes for Metaknight.

I really think that for you, and for so many other people out there who want him to be banned, it's really a HUGE case of confirmation bias. You "have little doubt" that it'll be worse in the future... but you don't KNOW. Like I said, the trend is that so many people are trying right now harder than ever to find ways to counter him, and in some cases it's working, and in others it isn't. We still have to see which way it will swing. The majority is pulling for MK to be banned because people are too ignorant to figure out how to beat him (mostly because it takes a lot of hard work and thinking and Theory Bros.) That party is still the minority in the SBR, and I'm afraid that the "BAN MK" party is really developing a mob mentality that will negatively affect some SBR members. I really hope that doesn't happen.

So what if that also goes for Metaknight? How do you know if that's true or not? You don't. You can't predict the future, so this is why I want to keep calling that we wait and watch before banning him.

Metaknight is obviously, clearly, downright broken. If you disagree with that then you should set yourself on fire.

This is exactly the mentality that I'm worried too many people will pick up.

I'm getting sick of it, but I'm gonna have to live with it as long as Metaknight is good.

However, I severely doubt this, and I do expect to see Metaknight be banned in about a year or two.

I guess I just like to be optomistic. I understand your points.

edit: oh snap, my 6969th post, too good

 

[adumbrodeus]

Then you're hoping for too much. We cannot assume that everyone is so blind so that not ONE of us have found a general weakness in Meta Knight. The only thing that would change this would be if an L-Canceling caliber technique would pop up, but that would change the game completely. Can we hold out for such a dream solution?

Or, should we live in the current reality?

A couple of character-specific techs would work just as well as a general AT.

Like it or not, ATs change things. That's the entire point of taking a "wait and see" attitude, because the longer the metagame has had to develop the more sure we become that this will not happen.

So yes, we wait for a while, and if the solution doesn't pop up when the metagame has developed sufficently to judge, we ban him, simple no?

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think Marth can grab release CG metaknight, lol.

anyways...

No. The only thing Marth can do is release grab->fair. He can get a release grab->side B if the Metaknight does not jump out immediately, but that's what buffering is for.

@adumbrodeus-Well, I agree that we should wait until the metagame is developed but...that's still an arbitrary goal. How long will it be until the metagame is "developed sufficently to judge." 1 year? 2 years? 10 years? Meanwhile Metaknight continues his surge and turns players away from brawl.

Some kind of action (even if it's just the top players agreeing to not play as metaknight) needs to take place soon (like, within the next year).

 

[choknater]

Strategy affects the game far more than AT's. Sheik, Lucario, and Wario players have gotten so far and are continuing to evolve just by mastering BASIC gameplay.

Metaknights don't even use AT's either.

Spoiler

inb4 infinite cape, the hype over that is just silly and it doesn't affect the metagame

No. The only thing Marth can do is release grab->fair. He can get a release grab->side B if the Metaknight does not jump out immediately, but that's what buffering is for.

Oh, I see.

 

[-Ran]

Yet what dictates the time frame for this? Should we wait a year? Then it becomes, "Well we waited a year, we can wait a few more months...."

At the very least we need a hard-cut off. We need a time table. I'd propose that if by January 31, 2009 [one year after the initial release of Brawl in Japan] that Meta Knight be banned unless drastic changes have been found. This would need to be an official time table via the SBR.

 

[Espy Rose]

Yet what dictates the time frame for this? Should we wait a year? Then it becomes, "Well we waited a year, we can wait a few more months...."

At the very least we need a hard-cut off. We need a time table

This, or we won't get anywhere.

Strategy affects the game far more than AT's. Sheik, Lucario, and Wario players have gotten so far and are continuing to evolve just by mastering BASIC gameplay.

Couldn't this be implied to all characters, INCLUDING Meta Knight?

Metaknights don't even use AT's either.

From what I understand, most AT's other characters are developing are based around attempts to increase range, speed, mobility, or to implement more mindgame.

Why bother learning ATs for characters like that, when Meta Knight already has a majority of that in the starting package?

Not to mention it saves you time and money for entering tournaments as other characters...

...only to lose to a Meta Knight.

As pessimistic as it sounds: When you enter a tournament, you will either:

1. Win against a crappy Meta Knight
2. Lose to a Meta Knight
3. Beat someone the first round, then lose to their counterpicked Meta Knight.

and in the rare occurance, you may win the tournament, after forcefully playing as Meta Knight.

As for the mindgames section, Tenki summarized it quite well.

 

[choknater]

Yet what dictates the time frame for this? Should we wait a year? Then it becomes, "Well we waited a year, we can wait a few more months...."

At the very least we need a hard-cut off. We need a time table. I'd propose that if by January 31, 2009 [one year after the initial release of Brawl in Japan] that Meta Knight be banned unless drastic changes have been found. This would need to be an official time table via the SBR.

I agree that an official time for deciding whether or not to ban Metaknight is legit or not.

via an SBR vote.

Another reference to the competitive Pokemon community: ShoddyBattle community and Smogon University give 2-3 month time tables for testing "suspects" whenever big changes happen to the metagame (which changes a LOT). They've done this with Wobbufett, Manaphy, Garchomp, Deoxys-E, and they are currently doing this with Sky Shaymin.

A time frame would be ideal.

To puffball: don't be silly. Even excellent Metaknights are being beaten by the likes of Azen and Fly Amanita. Metaknight is not the solution to everything, we still need to find out.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Strategy affects the game far more than AT's. Sheik, Lucario, and Wario players have gotten so far and are continuing to evolve just by mastering BASIC gameplay.

An AT would be required for a general counter measure. Basic gameplay would serve for multiple character specific counters.

Yet what dictates the time frame for this? Should we wait a year? Then it becomes, "Well we waited a year, we can wait a few more months...."

At the very least we need a hard-cut off. We need a time table. I'd propose that if by January 31, 2009 [one year after the initial release of Brawl in Japan] that Meta Knight be banned unless drastic changes have been found. This would need to be an official time table via the SBR.

When the metagame is mature.

Super Turbo's metagame is how old? Over 10 years old, they can be pretty sure of the reletive positions of different characters, and who hard-counters who.

1 Year is far too short, at absolute minimium 1.5 (assuming MK doesn't have another power jump, or suddenly fade), and from the US release date because our competative metagame is slightly different then the japanese competative metagame. Sure there is some exchange of information and some cross-playing, but in reality how many Japanese TOs are regulars on smashboards? How many Japanese players are in the smash back room?

Our competative metagame is developing independantly from theirs and to base our schedule on their metagame's start is nonsensical.

 

[HeroMystic]

I really think that for you, and for so many other people out there who want him to be banned, it's really a HUGE case of confirmation bias. You "have little doubt" that it'll be worse in the future... but you don't KNOW. Like I said, the trend is that so many people are trying right now harder than ever to find ways to counter him, and in some cases it's working, and in others it isn't. We still have to see which way it will swing. The majority is pulling for MK to be banned because people are too ignorant to figure out how to beat him (mostly because it takes a lot of hard work and thinking and Theory Bros.) That party is still the minority in the SBR, and I'm afraid that the "BAN MK" party is really developing a mob mentality that will negatively affect some SBR members. I really hope that doesn't happen.

So what if that also goes for Metaknight? How do you know if that's true or not? You don't. You can't predict the future, so this is why I want to keep calling that we wait and watch before banning him.

In reality, I actually don't want Metaknight to be banned, because many people like to play as him, and banning MK will cause many players to be in dismay.

However, I cannot ignore the fact that Metaknight is broken. It's just too obvious to ignore and it's silly to think that he isn't. In fact, one of my brawl friends is decent with MK, but he's trying to stay away from him because he'll "just be another player that won with Metaknight".

The only reason why MK isn't completely dominating the tournaments, as of now, is because of player skill. Now imagine if every MK user had the same moments as Dojo had. This is what I mean.

I support the wait and watch as well, and I completely understand your points as well and somewhat agree with them, but as said before, this isn't Melee. A lot of this game depends more on what your character can do, instead of what you as a player can do.

 

[DanGR]

The future of this thread...

Person: "MK is sooo stoooopid. Why isn't he banned alrady?"
Person #2: "Yeah, so brokenzorzorzor"...

*more winning*...

*more complainning*...

Yuna: "You all fail."

/thread

In all seriousness though, It's good to hear that the sbr is actually addressing this issue and not backing off of it. Only time can tell.

 

[-Ran]

So, I figure in the past four pages we've accomplished a ton before the inevitable explosion of posts will occur in this thread.

I think we can all agree on the following:
1) Meta Knight is the best character in the game. By Far.
2) If some 'general technique' is not found, that doesn't benefit Meta Knight, he will continue to be the best.
3) Many players are switching to Meta Knight as a secondary, which eventually evolves into being their main due to ease of use.
4) We are in desperate need of a time table to determine when Meta knight will be banned. This will sculpt the debate and the process drastically.

 

[Shark Week]

1 Year is far too short, at absolute minimium 1.5 (assuming MK doesn't have another power jump, or suddenly fade)

again, my fear is that things will simply deteriorate further. how much is mk dominating the competitive scene, what, eight months after brawl's release? even snake had some effective counters developed within a few months of release. what's going to happen to brawl if we let mk run rampant for another eight months or so?

Our competative metagame is developing independantly from theirs and to base our schedule on their metagame's start is nonsensical.

i thought so too at first, but many of our top players where working with the japanese version of the game simply to get a head start on things. all in all, it's not such an unreasonable date to use.

 

[-Ran]

Our competative metagame is developing independantly from theirs and to base our schedule on their metagame's start is nonsensical.

Our Metagame started the same time. Imports were done.

 

[Espy Rose]

To puffball: don't be silly. Even excellent Metaknights are being beaten by the likes of Azen and Fly Amanita. Metaknight is not the solution to everything, we still need to find out.

Yeah, I forget how hard sarcasm is to see on the internet, especially when it's not glaringly obvious. I apologize in that regard.

Meta Knight has been proven to be beaten, we already know that for a fact. I couldn't care either way for the ban in all honesty. However, I look over this more as a spectator than as a participator.

I really want to see what will happen in a sans-MK environment, and already have a good idea of what. I just need to test it. However:

-No TO will ban MK until SBR or MLG does so-

---EDIT: Thanks Tenki, much steak to you.---

In reality, I actually don't want Metaknight to be banned, because many people like to play as him, and banning MK will cause many players to be in dismay.

The only reason why MK isn't completely dominating the tournaments, as of now, is because of player skill. Now imagine if every MK user had the same moments as Dojo had. This is what I mean.

I support the wait and watch as well, and I completely understand your points as well and somewhat agree with them, but as said before, this isn't Melee. A lot of this game depends more on what your character can do, instead of what you as a player can do.

Paragraph 1: Having to be forced to play someone like GaW, Snake, or MK himself for those who want to play as low tier classified characters puts many players into dismay.

Paragraph 2: Truth

Paragraph 3: This is my only problem. Exactly WHEN is enough time? Acting too soon or too late could really damage the developing community before it gets out of infancy.

Meta Knight is really a hazardous topic, which is why he shows up so much. Even though many "scrubs" start the "Ban MK"-wagon up again after a topic is closed down, you'd think there'd be some truth in what they say (although of course not on the literal level).

 

[Tenki]

Italy did NOT ban Metaknight.

Yeah, you may say that Italy has done it, but when are they really going to bother putting up results?

Except...

Italy didn't ban Metaknight.

Apparently, it was just a "Do you want to ban Metaknight?" poll or something, just like how someone could hold a thread here.

Someone just interpreted it as a general decision.

 

[SothE700k]

That time table isn't a bad idea...
That's the only thing Pro and Anti MK people have agreed on at all. So why not go with it?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Our Metagame started the same time. Imports were done.

By a very small number of people reletive to the total players. Not enough to truly consider it the beginning of our metagame.

 

[Espy Rose]

Except...

Italy didn't ban Metaknight.

Apparently, it was just a "Do you want to ban Metaknight?" poll or something, just like how someone could hold a thread here.

Someone just interpreted it as a general decision.

Then I stand corrected, thanks for the clarification. Steak4u2nite.

 

[choknater]

The future of this thread...

Person: "MK is sooo stoooopid. Why isn't he banned alrady?"
Person #2: "Yeah, so brokenzorzorzor"...

*more winning*...

*more complainning*...

Yuna: "You all fail."

/thread

In all seriousness though, It's good to hear that the sbr is actually addressing this issue and not backing off of it. Only time can tell.

Lol, yeah, that's exactly what I'm trying to prevent because I'm pretty adamant against banning him. That's why I actually came in here to post seriously for once.

Spoiler

as opposed to my daily WAVE of spam in pacific west, too good lmao

I'm happy that there are actually a lot of intelligent posters here, especially on these past few pages.

 

[salaboB]

I hope this hasn't been said already, I skimmed through the thread and didn't see it.

Even if a ban for MK isn't required, at this point in the metagame it may be needed -- so that other characters that are currently being suppressed will be trained more with and their ATs discovered, including options against MK.

Part of the problem is that tournaments are not where you tend to actually discover ATs. You stick with what you know works best at them, because you don't want to throw your money away doing something screwy. So you're not going to see people discovering new techniques as much at a tournament as you will outside of it.

But if the majority of people are practicing primarily with MK, you're losing a huge number of testers that could be locating the ways to beat him on other characters. So, shift them off of MK for a while, and then maybe you can unban him later once his suppression of the rest of the cast has been gone long enough that their options have developed. Because right now it is too early to say a permaban of MK is needed, but a ban for a few months to force people to develop other characters could shift things so that MK never needs to be permanently banned.

 

[Espy Rose]

But if the majority of people are practicing primarily with MK, you're losing a huge number of testers that could be locating the ways to beat him on other characters. So, shift them off of MK for a while, and then maybe you can unban him later once his suppression of the rest of the cast has been gone long enough that their options have developed. Because right now it is too early to say a permaban of MK is needed, but a ban for a few months to force people to develop other characters could shift things so that MK never needs to be permanently banned.

Wouldn't banning Meta in tournaments actually restrict the other characters' metagames vs. Meta Knight?

Can't develop strategies against a good Meta Knight with Mario unless you actually play one at a tournament, can you?

Unless you do something like off-tournament countering, but even that would be situational, wouldn't it?

 

[choknater]

So, shift them off of MK for a while, and then maybe you can unban him later once his suppression of the rest of the cast has been gone long enough that their options have developed. Because right now it is too early to say a permaban of MK is needed, but a ban for a few months to force people to develop other characters could shift things so that MK never needs to be permanently banned.

Another very interesting suggestion. Would I support this?

...maybe.

*sigh* I hope some SBR representatives pop in here to tell us what is actually happening in THEIR debate.

*sigh again* I wanna be part of the SBR, but I spam too much out of habit lol.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Hylian already suggested this, in order to have other characters Metagames to catch up

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^I think he means discovering general ATs with characters (like Dragonic Reverse with Yoshi) that might also help with fighting Metaknight.

not that I agree with him.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I hope this hasn't been said already, I skimmed through the thread and didn't see it.

Even if a ban for MK isn't required, at this point in the metagame it may be needed -- so that other characters that are currently being suppressed will be trained more with and their ATs discovered, including options against MK.

Part of the problem is that tournaments are not where you tend to actually discover ATs. You stick with what you know works best at them, because you don't want to throw your money away doing something screwy. So you're not going to see people discovering new techniques as much at a tournament as you will outside of it.

But if the majority of people are practicing primarily with MK, you're losing a huge number of testers that could be locating the ways to beat him on other characters. So, shift them off of MK for a while, and then maybe you can unban him later once his suppression of the rest of the cast has been gone long enough that their options have developed. Because right now it is too early to say a permaban of MK is needed, but a ban for a few months to force people to develop other characters could shift things so that MK never needs to be permanently banned.

Perhaps, but it might have the effect of making people unused to fighting him, therefore making him that much more powerful once he returns to the scene.

I understand what you're saying, but there's a good chance it'll be counter productive.

 

[Espy Rose]

Another very interesting suggestion. Would I support this?

...maybe.

*sigh* I hope some SBR representatives pop in here to tell us what is actually happening in THEIR debate.

*sigh again* I wanna be part of the SBR, but I spam too much out of habit lol.

My post and adumbrodeus' posts on that idea.^^^

I too get frustrated about it, since they never really bother with actually discussing this with us, and perhaps getting others to understand the scenario a little better.

I just want to hit FWD, like on a VCR. I just want to see a result already...

 

[-Ran]

At the current pace of things, you might as well. You'll just see blank tape, the same thing that Brawl is going to be if MK remains. =P

 

[choknater]

Haha, I guess. I don't know if rushing it would help though, because every week or so we have new videos from some large tournament showing somebody playing really excellently with a character. Whether or not that character is top tier, I'm always seeing new kinds of strategy.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

But how often does such a player defeat a really good MK?

 

[grandmaster192]

I really like the idea of more characters being viable without MK. I noticed a lot of people actually don't believe that to be true.

I think Luigi, Fox, and Shiek/Zelda could really be some solid characters without MK, but that's just me.

 

[choknater]

Shiek/Zelda

That's true, haha. MK and G&W are the only two characters who have the advantage on both of them in the matchup.

 

[J4pu]

Ice Climbers on smashville are so freaking good on Metaknight. Two words: Fly Amanita (heck, are we allowed to reference players in this debate? If Theory Bros rules that out, I don't wanna take part in this debate.)

Yes, actually, I have seen Fly Amanita on Smashville, he lost 3 of 3 against DSF's MK, 2 were on smashville. The game went kind of like this: Fly using some awesome desync pattern while MK repeatedly DJ Dair, DJ Dair, DJ Dair until the platform got close to him, then he would land on it to regain his DJ's and repeat his previous strategy. Every now and then he would throw in a tornado, and any mistake Fly made or tornado he got hit by would end in the IC's being separated and DSF tearing one or the other up (or both ie hit nana left hit popo right, repeat).
The most grabs I remember Fly getting off in one match was 2, and while he did a good 70% every grab, I don't remember any of them being super low percents to death.

Lasers and bananas bother MK's but his attacks come out too quickly for the short laser stun to work all that well. So, banana tripping hurts MK while lasers cause a small annoyance.