The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Golden Link]

Ban Him

I want him banned. If he was banned there would probably be lots of people that would change their main to a low tier character and somewhat balancing Brawl tournies. MK is too cheap and most of the people who play MK aren't that good but still beat you. Do the right thing and ban him.

 

[choknater]

Yes, actually, I have seen Fly Amanita on Smashville, he lost 3 of 3 against DSF's MK, 2 were on smashville. The game went kind of like this: Fly using some awesome desync pattern while MK repeatedly DJ Dair, DJ Dair, DJ Dair until the platform got close to him, then he would land on it to regain his DJ's and repeat his previous strategy. Every now and then he would throw in a tornado, and any mistake Fly made or tornado he got hit by would end in the IC's being separated and DSF tearing one or the other up (or both ie hit nana left hit popo right, repeat).
The most grabs I remember Fly getting off in one match was 2, and while he did a good 70% every grab, I don't remember any of them being super low percents to death.

Lasers and bananas bother MK's but his attacks come out too quickly for the short laser stun to work all that well. So, banana tripping hurts MK while lasers cause a small annoyance.

Ah, thanks, I was always curious to see how that turned out.

Kudos to DSF for figuring out that Metaknight's forward approaches don't work on IC's.

Can IC's break this strategy? Heh, I don't know. IC uair has a lot of priority, maybe Fly didn't realize it at the time. *shrug*

I want him banned. If he was banned there would probably be lots of people that would change their main to a low tier character and somewhat balancing Brawl tournies. MK is too cheap and most of the people who play MK aren't that good but still beat you. Do the right thing and ban him.

IMO there would be an explosion of G&W, who dominated the midwest scene for a long time (until anther came along and ***** everyone)

 

[Ulevo]

Just ban Meta Knight already.

The boards are the community, and the community speaks for itself. Why take a vote? We all know what everyone else believes. It doesn't matter what the facts are, people have already made up their minds. You can see it with the overwhelming amount of threads and posts everywhere you go. Even in the Meta Knight boards, nothing is productive anymore. It's a constant war of debates on the for or against of Meta Knight. It is quite obvious that the opinions of people are not about to change, and for the majority of the SBR members, I do not see a significant difference of opinion arising. If it's a vote you're going for, Meta Knight is already banned. People are too closed minded to look at it any other way.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

GaW wouldn't come along alone though ... at least DDD will follow, maybe even Marth

 

[adumbrodeus]

That's true, haha. MK and G&W are the only two characters who have the advantage on both of them in the matchup.

Define "advantage", at top level play it's very debatable whether MK has a concrete advantage over Zelda, it could very easily be a 55-45 match-up, only slightly in MK's favor.

Just ban Meta Knight already.

The boards are the community, and the community speaks for itself. Why take a vote? We all know what everyone else believes. It doesn't matter what the facts are, people have already made up their minds. You can see it with the overwhelming amount of threads and posts everywhere you go. Even in the Meta Knight boards, nothing is productive anymore. It's a constant war of debates on the for or against of Meta Knight. It is quite obvious that the opinions of people are not about to change, and for the majority of the SBR members, I do not see a significant difference of opinion arising. If it's a vote you're going for, Meta Knight is already banned. People are too closed minded to look at it any other way.

Quoted for truth.

Unfortunately, too many people on the boards simply do not have the competative mindset, and ONLY within that frame of reference can an MK ban be valid, if it is valid period.

A vote of all smashboards members is the wrong route, this has to be decided via debate, probably in the smash back room.

IMO there would be an explosion of G&W, who dominated the midwest scene for a long time (until anther came along and ***** everyone)

At this point I'd actually say Marth because of his overall better match-ups then anyone else in the cast, minus MK. That said, it probably wouldn't be by much.

 

[dekushrub]

I feel that a character is the last thing anyone wants to ban but with the case of metaknight, it's almost necessary. I wish that Nintendo would release a patch and balance out the game like Blizzard did in the old days when StarCraft started horribly inbalanced. Sure by patching the game and rebalancing the characters, players will have to relearn the new version of their characters but then the game becomes more competitive. Then it doesn't matter what tier your main is since all the characters are equal so the only thing that matters is skill. (On a sidenote, it would be great if they removed tripping in this patch)

 

[choknater]

Just ban Meta Knight already.

The boards are the community, and the community speaks for itself. Why take a vote? We all know what everyone else believes. It doesn't matter what the facts are, people have already made up their minds. You can see it with the overwhelming amount of threads and posts everywhere you go. Even in the Meta Knight boards, nothing is productive anymore. It's a constant war of debates on the for or against of Meta Knight. It is quite obvious that the opinions of people are not about to change, and for the majority of the SBR members, I do not see a significant difference of opinion arising. If it's a vote you're going for, Meta Knight is already banned. People are too closed minded to look at it any other way.

You can't ignore that there's a mob mentality full of ignorance. Once again, it's all CONFIRMATION BIAS from people who believe "MK IS BROKEN, MK IS BROKEN!" and they scream it everywhere.

We can't have an all out vote from people who don't know squat about the current echelons of the metgame's matchups.

If anyone's gotta vote, it's gotta be the SBR.

 

[salaboB]

Perhaps, but it might have the effect of making people unused to fighting him, therefore making him that much more powerful once he returns to the scene.

I understand what you're saying, but there's a good chance it'll be counter productive.

This would only be a short term unused to him, it's not like you wouldn't relearn how to combat him once he was allowed for a couple tournies again. He'd come roaring back to full popularity, and then any new capabilities would be tested -- and after that, it should end up pretty obvious whether he needs permabanning or if someone has learned ways to utilize their characters that actually can compete with MK or not.

I have no idea if anything will be found or not either way, but honestly if it won't then the game will just continue as described in the initial post and MK will dominate. Is it better to just leave things until it's stagnant and THEN ban him, forcing even more people to have to scramble for new characters to play? Or is it better to be a little proactive and try to let the other characters develop, then bring MK back for a while and see if that helped anything. Waiting for the game to stagnate will lose players permanently (People often don't come back once they've quit) and strip away more people's main if a ban does occur at that point than doing a planned limited duration ban now to see what the game can become without him.

Basically though, right now the people trying to fight MK simply lack any options for ways to break his pressure, and without enough people poking at the other characters possible ATs that could help with that just aren't being found. The hope would be some development from more people looking at the others in the game would locate something that could combat MK more directly once he was back in play.

 

[Master Raven]

At this point, I am not against banning MK, however I am against banning him this early. I believe we should wait until after HOBO 11 to consider a ban or not.

 

[Sky`]

Srsly.

Why.

Ban MK when.

He's not.

Unbeatable?

It's not like.

He is a.

Boss who has Special armor.

And extra attack he's just.

Fast.

-Poem by Sky.

 

[Blad01]

If anyone's gotta vote, it's gotta be the SBR.

We want that please 8D

Three choices :

Do you want MK to be banned from high-level tournaments ?

1) Yes
2) No
3) Not at the moment, we have to wait more

 

[adumbrodeus]

This would only be a short term unused to him, it's not like you wouldn't relearn how to combat him once he was allowed for a couple tournies again. He'd come roaring back to full popularity, and then any new capabilities would be tested -- and after that, it should end up pretty obvious whether he needs permabanning or if someone has learned ways to utilize their characters that actually can compete with MK or not.

But the new capabilities would make characters better against other characters, NOT MK.

It would do nothing to change the situation against MK, all that would change is people would become not used to fighting him (temporarily, but still).

I have no idea if anything will be found or not either way, but honestly if it won't then the game will just continue as described in the initial post and MK will dominate. Is it better to just leave things until it's stagnant and THEN ban him, forcing even more people to have to scramble for new characters to play? Or is it better to be a little proactive and try to let the other characters develop, then bring MK back for a while and see if that helped anything. Waiting for the game to stagnate will lose players permanently (People often don't come back once they've quit) and strip away more people's main if a ban does occur at that point than doing a planned limited duration ban now to see what the game can become without him.

And what happens if we ban prematurely? People leave in frustration. If we suddenly find that MK is not broken and we didn't have to ban him, then people won't quit and all is well.

Point being, before it's truly reached that point, the raw number of MKs will result in counters being discovered, or he'll be banned.

You can't ignore that there's a mob mentality full of ignorance. Once again, it's all CONFIRMATION BIAS from people who believe "MK IS BROKEN, MK IS BROKEN!" and they scream it everywhere.

We can't have an all out vote from people who don't know squat about the current echelons of the metgame's matchups.

If anyone's gotta vote, it's gotta be the SBR.

Which is unfortunate, because there are a lot of intelligent players with competitive mindsets outside of the SBR. But it can't be helped, we simply don't have another venue where we're sure people are competitent to discuss this.


Note: For the most part, people on this thread have been more then intelligent enough to discuss and debate on this issue, regardless of their positions. The fact that this cannot be voted on here is in general, not a negative commentary on you guys, but on a lot of the smashboards population. Personally, I'm rather impressed at the quality of the discussion on this topic in this thread.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I believe if MK would be banned, you can ban him next year, but banning him before december shows you cant find a soltion. If he is banned in December, fair enough. Temporal ban though, long enough for other characters to improve enough to MK's play. If characters go beyond MK's level, then he should no longer be worried about.

 

[Daimonster]

Hello, I’m hoping to add some input on the ban metaknight discussion. First off, I’ll state that I am from Dallas who has played (repeatedly) the best yoshi (bwett) in the US as of now. I have also played an extremely competent Donkey Kong player from New mexico in addition to a local donkey kong player. Our community has engulfed the dramatic influence that one character has on the entire roster. One of our better players used to play an exclusive main character until he decided to combat MK with MK. After the change, he had no problem conquering that obstacle with a more promising character and better fighter skill.

Players here at smashboards seem to focus on one aspect about a character and see a counter by another character then decide TADAH! counter…Character matchups do not work that way. The matchup should be decided with the entire gameplan and all maps involved. For example, some players decided that donkey kong is a counter to metaknight. Yes, some of donkey kongs moves beat out metaknight. However, metaknight’s moveset + the addition of the brawl engine allows him to approach defensively in order to punish the donkey kong player’s moveset. This game allows so many options out of a defensive moveset. Using metaknight is simply a running option select. In addition to metaknight’s almost zero lag moveset, the game simply compliments this character way too much.

The MK vs Yoshi matchup follows this scenario way too close. On paper, Yoshi has a moveset that upright destroys metaknights. However, because of the brawl engine and yoshi’s lack of out of shield options. The matchup is in metaknights favor. The metaknight player does not have to attack in order to gain an edge. He can simply shield, spot dodge and grab his way to throw yoshi into the corner (ledge) and then dish out damage that way. Thus limiting his options (grab release combo) and forcing an opponent to make a mistake. On the contrary, metaknight’s corner game is TOO good. Hands down, no other character can place himself in the corner and be at an advantage. Sudai’s R.O.B comes to mind, but you can ask him how that went.

In fighters, the corner is where your opponent has the least amount of options. Similar to brawl, the ledge is considered the corner. Metaknight consistenly places his opponents in the corner and can safely gimp his opponents recovery. If you can recall the metaknight vs snake matchup by pro players; the objective for metaknight is to place snake off the platform and onto a ledge in order to gain free damage. Snake’s aerial game is absolutely horrible. He has no safe recovery option. Metaknight on the other hand, has several punishing and very safe recovery options. 5 jumps, drill tornado, or shuttle loop (for edgeguarding tactics).

Take MvC2 for example, storm is similar to MK as far as being safe…however when placed in the corner can eat lots of free damage. Metaknight in this game is safe everywhere. The only difference in how badly you lose to him is dependant on players skill. A very good player will play safe the entire way. Take MK dittos for example, they involve reacting to the player who poked last and then taking advantage because of brawl’s defensive out of shield options. No other character has ANYTHING close to these types of options with the speed and hitbox/hurtbox ratio as metaknight does.
Thus the reasons why he should be banned.

Tldr version: Should be banned due to destroying the disadvantageous corner game concept.

btw Choknater: Metaknight does have forward IC approaching options. You just gota do them backwards. F.smash (defeats shield grab attempts), d.tilt (separates nana from popo), f.air (places ic's in the air) rinse repeat. DSF just decided to take a very uncreative route.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Personally, I'm rather impressed at the quality of the discussion on this topic in this thread.

agreed

Spoiler

just wait until Yuna shows up...

 

[Ulevo]

You can't ignore that there's a mob mentality full of ignorance. Once again, it's all CONFIRMATION BIAS from people who believe "MK IS BROKEN, MK IS BROKEN!" and they scream it everywhere.

We can't have an all out vote from people who don't know squat about the current echelons of the metgame's matchups.

If anyone's gotta vote, it's gotta be the SBR.

Obviously my statement was on the topic of that mob full of ignorance. And if I do be as so bold, I would say that there are only a limited amount of SBR members who do not share the same "reasoning" as the general public. The bottom line is very few people are willing to properly analyze Meta Knight as a character, as well as other characters in comparison, within the meta game in order to form a proper opinion. For every one individual trying to put forward that effort, there are ten more people using Meta Knight for the sole reason to win, and twenty more morons demanding a ban because they can't find a way to win other than picking Meta Knight.

We'd all like to give Meta Knight the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure. But the overall intelligence and reasoning of SWF is too low to accommodate that.

 

[Jack Kieser]

You know what I find interesting? The effects of a timetable being applied to a Meta ban are a little more far-reaching than we think.

Let's take the Jan. 31 timetable as an example. Players will want to prove Meta broken, but in order to do that, Meta will need to continue to dominate in tournaments. More players will pick up Meta to try to sweep as many tournaments as possible in an attempt to show how broken Meta is.

But true Meta mains (the people who actually enjoy playing Meta, as opposed to people who play him out of necessity) won't want Meta banned. Their saving grace will be in finding a weakness good enough to bring Meta down a few pegs but not so great that he stops being a good option. We already know from experience that Meta has no basic operative weaknesses (or at least no weaknesses that he doesn't cover for inherently), so the only thing that would prevent a ban would be some character-specific (or general) AT that Meta can't handle. I would predict that Meta players would be the ones that find AT's on other characters in an attempt to save Meta. The very people we're trying to curtail might be the ones who end up fixing the whole mess.

...at least, in theory. I totally support a timetable for a Meta ban, BTW.

 

[Sky`]

In the form of a Haiku!

Metaknight is dumb.
But all of you must admit.
He is stoppable.

I think that one day
Like Tier list in Melee
He will be cut down.

Recall back to then
When we were like WTF
Shiek she's one tough *****.

Then we cut her down.
Sliced that *** and now she sucks.
Well, I guess she's good.

But we found out well.
So many counters for her.
That she was not feared.

The same will happen.
As a group we'll overcome.
Metaknight, that ***.

 

[adumbrodeus]

In the form of a Haiku!

Metaknight is dumb.
But all of you must admit.
He is stoppable.

I think that one day
Like Tier list in Melee
He will be cut down.

Recall back to then
When we were like WTF
Shiek she's one tough *****.

Then we cut her down.
Sliced that *** and now she sucks.
Well, I guess she's good.

But we found out well.
So many counters for her.
That she was not feared.

The same will happen.
As a group we'll overcome.
Metaknight, that ***.

We MAY find counters, but we don't know for sure. Was an Akuma counter ever found?

Regardless, we can't assume that we won't find counters, hence a "wait and see" attitude is all that is reasonable, as I said in the last thread.

agreed

Spoiler

just wait until Yuna shows up...

Nice to know I'm not the only one noticing the superior level of discussion.

Spoiler

Yuna is intelligent, a little caustic in his debating approach, but he knows what he's talking about and discusses it well.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Meta Knight will not be countered by just one character. Him being countered by 2 or 3 characters is nonsense. It's gonna be a game-breaking AT like Wavedash to make it equal.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Just ban Meta Knight already.

The boards are the community, and the community speaks for itself. Why take a vote? We all know what everyone else believes. It doesn't matter what the facts are, people have already made up their minds. You can see it with the overwhelming amount of threads and posts everywhere you go. Even in the Meta Knight boards, nothing is productive anymore. It's a constant war of debates on the for or against of Meta Knight. It is quite obvious that the opinions of people are not about to change, and for the majority of the SBR members, I do not see a significant difference of opinion arising. If it's a vote you're going for, Meta Knight is already banned. People are too closed minded to look at it any other way.

This is the PROBLEM. The community is definitely close minded and ban happy (in not just smash bros but most games). Of course, the issue is that most things you are going to want to ban aren't actually ban worthy, and you very, very seriously undermine a game when you ban a character. Banning is truly radical and drastic; a lot of people don't seem to understand the severity of what they propose. Frankly, I think we are better off in the long run just ignoring this sort of mob mentality.

I, in the interest of full disclosure, don't see a ban as justified at all, but let's analyze the situation in the abstract.

The first step has to be defining what is ban-worthy. Sirlin is a good place to start here:

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/

Okay, a character is enforceable and discrete (beyond the niche case of selecting "Random" as your character) so we only have to worry about whether it is warranted. Sirlin suggests this as a vague benchmark:

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics.

That's... really vague. Sirlin's primary example of ban-worthy (Akuma) is obviously more extreme than Meta Knight (or any character in any smash game). Here's where we have to actually start; what is the minimum value a character can have and still be ban-worthy? Let's start big and work down:

Use this character or lose no matter what. - Obviously ban worthy.
Use this character or lose unless you are significantly more talented than your foe.
Use this character or a very small number of other characters or lose to this character.
Use this character or a very small number of other characters or lose to this character unless you are significantly more talented than your foe.
This character is beatable by a large number of characters, but objectively there's no reason to pick any character other than this character.
This character is the best character in the game clearly but is one of many plausible choices.
This character is only disputably the best character in the game. - Obviously not ban worthy.

Right now where is Meta Knight? Do we even all agree? I see him at the lowest level personally, but I notice that most people here see him on the second or third lowest level. A few see him as high as the second highest level. Tournament results are suggesting that, in the current metagame (which is obviously not mature), Meta Knight is behaving like the third lowest point. I really don't think we should be calling that ban-worthy since you're really just punishing a game for having a clear best at the top instead of rock-paper-scissors. Ban worthy in my view is between the 3rd and 4th points on the list in a mature metagame and only applies to the top point in an immature one, but this is where we have to start.

Also, about procedure for banning, do NOT make the mistakes of the Pokemon community. Really, the process was designed in such a way to highly favor banning things without favoring reasoned opinions or objective evidence. First of all, an objective barrier to begin discussion has to be set. By that I mean that if the tournament results don't show a level of dominance N, Meta Knight is automatically not banned regardless of what anyone thinks. I would secondly propose that a supermajority (2/3) would have to be required for a ban in any voting procedure; smogon's procedure had the big flaw that a 51-49 vote would actually ban something when obviously anything that closely divided should not be banned. Lastly, you have to ensure that every vote that counts is well reasoned and free of undue bias. I'm not joking when I express that the main reason Wobbuffet was banned at smogon was because most players find games involving it not fun (whether it is ban-worthy for other reasons could be debated, but it's not really disputable that this was the motivation behind most votes to ban it). Just assuming top players or SBR members or whatever are going to be fair is pretty dangerous, but there's a lot of time to mull over problems related to this.

Two last comments as some people don't realize some basic things.

1. Banning Meta Knight "for a while" is an obvious joke. It's way easier to ban something than to unban it, and realistically, he would be banned forever if he's ever banned. If you don't realize this is severe and extremely radical with very deep consequences, you really have no place being involved in a discussion of it.

2. Soft bans are not an option. Sorry Japan, but not doing everything you can do to win within the rules is classic scrub behavior. If we are going to ban anthing, it HAS to be a hard ban.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

*Sigh*

Stop mentioning Wavedashing. It's a mindgame and is thus not related to the match-up

 

[Jim Morrison]

1. Banning Meta Knight "for a while" is an obvious joke. It's way easier to ban something than to unban it, and realistically, he would be banned forever if he's ever banned. If you don't realize this is severe and extremely radical with very deep consequences, you really have no place being involved in a discussion of it.

Just saying what i thought but i guess your right, ill just read stuff instead of posting

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is the PROBLEM. The community is definitely close minded and ban happy (in not just smash bros but most games). Of course, the issue is that most things you are going to want to ban aren't actually ban worthy, and you very, very seriously undermine a game when you ban a character. Banning is truly radical and drastic; a lot of people don't seem to understand the severity of what they propose. Frankly, I think we are better off in the long run just ignoring this sort of mob mentality.

He actually was ridiculing taking a vote outside of SBR for exactly that reason.

I, in the interest of full disclosure, don't see a ban as justified at all, but let's analyze the situation in the abstract.

The first step has to be defining what is ban-worthy. Sirlin is a good place to start here:

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/

Okay, a character is enforceable and discrete (beyond the niche case of selecting "Random" as your character) so we only have to worry about whether it is warranted. Sirlin suggests this as a vague benchmark:

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics.

That's... really vague. Sirlin's primary example of ban-worthy (Akuma) is obviously more extreme than Meta Knight (or any character in any smash game). Here's where we have to actually start; what is the minimum value a character can have and still be ban-worthy? Let's start big and work down:

Check Sirlin's second example, which he points out as reasonable (on the edge of reasonableness, but still).

Use this character or lose no matter what. - Obviously ban worthy.
Use this character or lose unless you are significantly more talented than your foe.
Use this character or a very small number of other characters or lose to this character.
Use this character or a very small number of other characters or lose to this character unless you are significantly more talented than your foe.
This character is beatable by a large number of characters, but objectively there's no reason to pick any character other than this character.
This character is the best character in the game clearly but is one of many plausible choices.
This character is only disputably the best character in the game. - Obviously not ban worthy.

Right now where is Meta Knight? Do we even all agree? I see him at the lowest level personally, but I notice that most people here see him on the second or third lowest level. A few see him as high as the second highest level. Tournament results are suggesting that, in the current metagame (which is obviously not mature), Meta Knight is behaving like the third lowest point. I really don't think we should be calling that ban-worthy since you're really just punishing a game for having a clear best at the top instead of rock-paper-scissors. Ban worthy in my view is between the 3rd and 4th points on the list in a mature metagame and only applies to the top point in an immature one, but this is where we have to start.

Also, about procedure for banning, do NOT make the mistakes of the Pokemon community. Really, the process was designed in such a way to highly favor banning things without favoring reasoned opinions or objective evidence. First of all, an objective barrier to begin discussion has to be set. By that I mean that if the tournament results don't show a level of dominance N, Meta Knight is automatically not banned regardless of what anyone thinks. I would secondly propose that a supermajority (2/3) would have to be required for a ban in any voting procedure; smogon's procedure had the big flaw that a 51-49 vote would actually ban something when obviously anything that closely divided should not be banned. Lastly, you have to ensure that every vote that counts is well reasoned and free of undue bias. I'm not joking when I express that the main reason Wobbuffet was banned at smogon was because most players find games involving it not fun (whether it is ban-worthy for other reasons could be debated, but it's not really disputable that this was the motivation behind most votes to ban it). Just assuming top players or SBR members or whatever are going to be fair is pretty dangerous, but there's a lot of time to mull over problems related to this.

Firstly, I'd like to note that a character not being the best character and a everyone but a small number of characters flat-out lose to him/her/it/potato are not mutually exclusive in the least. For that reason, it's notable when those attributes are together.

So, why third from bottom or second from the bottom? Come on, there's no possible way MK is beaten by a large number of characters, we don't even have 1 true neutral match-up for him, a couple of 45-55s, but the rest are counters of some sort, MK's advantage. He is certainly not one of many plausable choices either.

4th from the bottom is generally speaking the concensus, except for a few characters you need superior skill to win (60-40 is considered a good match-up against MK).

He is, at lowest, between third and forth from the bottom, and until a concrete counter-pick develops, that is the case.

Regardless, your scale has issues, because higher points in the scale do not always have the lower points as prerequisites, which the chart seems to assume.

Super-majority and mature metagame I'll agree with.

*Sigh*

Stop mentioning Wavedashing. It's a mindgame and is thus not related to the match-up

Sorry dude, no.

Wavedashing was incredible spacing.

It added a wonderful dimension to mindgames, making the game far more Yomi dependant (which had the added factor of making skill that much more prefered as opposed to simple character advantages), but it's best asset was spacing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Right now where is Meta Knight? Do we even all agree? I see him at the lowest level personally, but I notice that most people here see him on the second or third lowest level. A few see him as high as the second highest level. Tournament results are suggesting that, in the current metagame (which is obviously not mature), Meta Knight is behaving like the third lowest point. I really don't think we should be calling that ban-worthy since you're really just punishing a game for having a clear best at the top instead of rock-paper-scissors. Ban worthy in my view is between the 3rd and 4th points on the list in a mature metagame and only applies to the top point in an immature one, but this is where we have to start.

Agreed, however the major issue is on how long does it take for the competitive scene to be considered mature?

now lets also take into factor the behavior recently.
At first Snake used to be on top of everyone, with his poits being just above MK's to separate him from MK.

Unsurprisingly Snake was surpassed by MK which is expected considering how small the gap was between them.
however if you look at the gap now it has increased to a much greater degree than what Snake had over MK. not only that but MK has maintained this lead for a good amount of time.

its not just a question of how well he is doing tournament wise currently, but how long he will be doing this well and to what degree will this continue to occur?
Especially if you consider that MK's game has already started to come to a halt.

Also, about procedure for banning, do NOT make the mistakes of the Pokemon community. Really, the process was designed in such a way to highly favor banning things without favoring reasoned opinions or objective evidence. First of all, an objective barrier to begin discussion has to be set. By that I mean that if the tournament results don't show a level of dominance N, Meta Knight is automatically not banned regardless of what anyone thinks. I would secondly propose that a supermajority (2/3) would have to be required for a ban in any voting procedure; smogon's procedure had the big flaw that a 51-49 vote would actually ban something when obviously anything that closely divided should not be banned. Lastly, you have to ensure that every vote that counts is well reasoned and free of undue bias. I'm not joking when I express that the main reason Wobbuffet was banned at smogon was because most players find games involving it not fun (whether it is ban-worthy for other reasons could be debated, but it's not really disputable that this was the motivation behind most votes to ban it). Just assuming top players or SBR members or whatever are going to be fair is pretty dangerous, but there's a lot of time to mull over problems related to this.

This.
placing power in the hands of the few does not help especially considering they are not above being biased or mistakes.

howwever can you really say it is unfair to do such a thing?
How many people in Smogon community and in Smash community would be considered of enough intelligence and experience to warrant being capable of judging the situation at hand?
by no means is Smash a small scene but the amount of people who are of a professional level is very low in comparison.

2. Soft bans are not an option. Sorry Japan, but not doing everything you can do to win within the rules is classic scrub behavior. If we are going to ban anything, it HAS to be a hard ban.

need to touch on this, the reason japan can do soft bans and we cannot is because of the culture. they are more honor sided than the U.S.
hence why Akuma is soft banned rather than hard banned.
you also have population size and many other factors.

So yeah.

tl;dr: it works for them but cannot work for us.

 

[PKSkyler]

he is really hard to counter pick.

With Ness ussually pick delfino but its like thats one of metas best stages.

I wish Pirate ship was legal where I play tournies.

 

[Snail]

I say we should wait. MK is dominating more and more, and it's only a matter of time unless something drastically changes.

 

[NeoCrono]

he is really hard to counter pick.

With Ness ussually pick delfino but its like thats one of metas best stages.

I wish Pirate ship was legal where I play tournies.

I would pick any stage with a low ceiling to fight meatknight. But that can only help you so much lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

1.Choose DK
2.Choose FD
3???
4. Profit!
5. Have steak!

 

[salaboB]

But the new capabilities would make characters better against other characters, NOT MK.

It would do nothing to change the situation against MK, all that would change is people would become not used to fighting him (temporarily, but still).

New ATs are new ATs, you can't tell who they'll be useful against. And given the current MK suppression -- yes, people do play against him constantly. But if the best players are playing *as* him, they're not going to be finding ways for other characters to become competitive, and those elusive ATs that might be able to bring MK down are that much less likely to ever be found until the bias against him has gotten so strong he'd never be considered for unbanning because of what he did to the tournament scene.

2. Soft bans are not an option. Sorry Japan, but not doing everything you can do to win within the rules is classic scrub behavior. If we are going to ban anthing, it HAS to be a hard ban.

This is not what being a scrub means, Sirlin is wrong. Edit: So you should only use the term by his definition when you're specifically talking about Sirlin's world. Which you don't seem to be here, since you're talking about Japan's world

And by your logic in this point, everyone should immediately switch to playing MK because he's the best character with no counters, and if they're not spending all their time practicing with him they're not doing everything they can to win. No thanks.

 

[Daimonster]

And by your logic in this point, everyone should immediately switch to playing MK because he's the best character with no counters, and if they're not spending all their time practicing with him they're not doing everything they can to win. No thanks.

post of the month for me imo.

My post into this topic gets no love.

 

[Crizthakidd]

... and then we find captain falcon has an infinite vs MK by one easy grab.

 

[Dark Sonic]

1.Choose DK
2.Choose FD
3???
4. Profit!
5. Have steak!

DK doesn't get to have steak because DK doesn't have an advantage on Metaknight.

 

[HeroMystic]

1. Banning Meta Knight "for a while" is an obvious joke. It's way easier to ban something than to unban it, and realistically, he would be banned forever if he's ever banned. If you don't realize this is severe and extremely radical with very deep consequences, you really have no place being involved in a discussion of it.

Says who? You? Obviously you're going too much into the extremes of the lack of faith in others. The only -good- arguement I've heard thus far against this is that if MK was temp-banned, then people would grow unfamiliar with MK because of his long absense, thus there would be a good chance that we'd find no counter at all against MK.

But like all the other arguments, they're flawed in the case that they're not facts, but predictions. Yours however is an extremity.

 

[salaboB]

Says who? You? Obviously you're going too much into the extremes of the lack of faith in others. The only -good- arguement I've heard thus far against this is that if MK was temp-banned, then people would grow unfamiliar with MK because of his long absense, thus there would be a good chance that we'd find no counter at all against MK.

But like all the other arguments, they're flawed in the case that they're not facts, but predictions. Yours however is an extremity.

The other thing is that even if MK were temp banned in the big tournies, he'd still be used in smaller ones (Or the big ones that don't care about the official rules) as well as playing just for fun, so people would still be testing things against him. But a lot more practicing would occur with other characters.

I also think that if a ban went into place with a fixed end date, people would ramp up practicing as/against MK near the end of it because it's not like it would be an abrupt "Okay now you can play MK again" without warning.

 

[Ulevo]

Says who? You? Obviously you're going too much into the extremes of the lack of faith in others. The only -good- arguement I've heard thus far against this is that if MK was temp-banned, then people would grow unfamiliar with MK because of his long absense, thus there would be a good chance that we'd find no counter at all against MK.

But like all the other arguments, they're flawed in the case that they're not facts, but predictions. Yours however is an extremity.

He's right.

Do you really believe banning Meta Knight will go without consequences to the community as a whole? It will be severely damaging. As it stands now, more people use Meta Knight then any other character, and a large base of the meta game revolves around him because of this fact. Removing him is removing a large piece of the game. People who main Meta Knight will be forced to choose other characters, possibly resulting in a loss of players. This would also include the loss of tournament attendees, which the community revolves around. The game itself already lacks a plethora of options and techniques in terms of depth; removing an entire character from the picture not only changes how the game is played, but takes away from it as well.

Even removing Meta Knight for a short period of time will have large negative effects on the whole. A temporary ban is about as stupid as someone else's idea to ban the Tornado. If it is to be done, it should be permanent, and for the right reasons.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

If you don't realize this is severe and extremely radical with very deep consequences, you really have no place being involved in a discussion of it.


You arent giving Iran nuclear missiles. You are talking about a banning a character from a kids party game so the game can be more competitive. There is NOTHING severe nor will there be any consequences from it.

Ban, if it doesnt work, unban. Nothing wrong with that.

I dont understand why someone doesnt have a large tourney, and ban Meta. Test it out , see what happens. This isnt politics, it wont take 8 years for some "unban" law to pass, you just do it, or you dont.

 

[-Ran]

People who main Meta Knight will be forced to choose other characters, possibly resulting in a loss of players. This would also include the loss of tournament attendees, which the community revolves around.

A decent percentage of Meta Knight mains switched from other characters that proved to be ineffective vs Meta Knight, or picked Meta Knight as their tournament main due to how few match up 'issues' he has. I'd dare say we've lost more tournament attendance due to the existence of Meta Knight, than what we have gained from his inclusion in the game.

Example: Lee one of the best, if not the best in Louisiana used Ike, Marth, and Snake prior to seeing how amazing Meta Knight is. He was winning -fine- with Ike, Marth, and Snake, though the matches were far closer. Now he uses Meta Knight at every tournament, aside from a few matches where he'll use Snake.

 

[choknater]

As it stands now, more people use Meta Knight then any other character

What proof do you have of this? It's more like more people are winning tournaments right now with Metaknight than with any other character. That's the thing that is making people call him out for bans. There's plenty of mains of each character, it's just that MK is pretty easy to pick up and people are using him to win. Those people don't really win tournaments though, it's the MK mains that win tournaments.

Seriously, if anyone has problems with an MK secondary who is simply using him to win, you need to step up your game.

The ones who main him are dangerous. Bannable? JEEZ, not yet guys.

 

[Niko_K]

I personally think we've been waiting long enough to try this The amount of players who have an MK for tourney use in their back pocket is ridiculous. He really is a step higher than the entire game...