Meta "The Saikyo Dojo" Ryu Metagame Discussion.

[Kaladin]

So, I've been labbing with Ryu's shield break game. Friendly warning to everyone: Do NOT use collarbone breaker on shields that are less than 1/3rd there. The first hit will break the shield, and the second will hit them out of dizzy. It sucks.

 

[Neo Zero]

Not sure if this was known or discussed, but it was new to me. Apparently Hadoken can trip? Was on For Glory and hit a Hadoken point blank and it caused my opponent to trip.

Also, this one was probably discussed but Nair can cause...not sure the proper term for it...the jab lock/helpless state animation. Can't really get it consistent so probably just some Sakurai Angle fun.

 

[icraq]

Not sure if this was known or discussed, but it was new to me. Apparently Hadoken can trip? Was on For Glory and hit a Hadoken point blank and it caused my opponent to trip.

Also, this one was probably discussed but Nair can cause...not sure the proper term for it...the jab lock/helpless state animation. Can't really get it consistent so probably just some Sakurai Angle fun.

ye hadouken trips, and it can also jab lock at any percent. nair trips too, i believe.

nair only jablocks up until like 50% i think, then it hits them too hard. i'm not sure of the differences sweet/sour spot nair has on jablock.

 

[Deleted member]

ye hadouken trips, and it can also jab lock at any percent. nair trips too, i believe.

nair only jablocks up until like 50% i think, then it hits them too hard. i'm not sure of the differences sweet/sour spot nair has on jablock.

If anything I imagine it's only an effective % range difference.

As in, fresh Nair locks up to 50% as you said and then late Nair locks up until a little later possibly because it has lower knockback (but may not jab lock at earlier percents).

Are we actually talking about resets though?

Because I've seen Nair reset more than lock, I didn't even think locks were in this game to much of an extent aside from Pac-Man's Fair lock.

At any rate a Nair reset of course = free Stage 2 FA -> whatever you want.

I'll try and test the percentages today if I get time though.

 

[icraq]

I meant reset, my bad.

Is it possible to jab lock with hadouken? Like, hadouken their missed tech, hadouken again, again, then they'd have to stand up? Not sure if it's quick enough

 

[Deleted member]

Pardon the double post but since we're in mid conversation it feels warranted. Is it possible to jab lock with hadouken? Like, hadouken their missed tech, hadouken again, again, then they'd have to stand up? Not sure if it's quick enough

I don't think it's quick enough because there is a little bit of lag where Ryu is still in Hadouken stance after releasing it.

So it'd only lock if the opponent isn't actively trying to get up, I would think.

It could potentially reset though.

Also minor nitpicky thing but technically a jab lock actually uses just jab.

So technically this would be called a Hadouken lock, the Nair variant would be called a Nair lock, etc.

Falco had his Laser Lock in Brawl for example:

 

[Nocx]

Not sure if it has been mentioned here, but if you shield the first hit of collarbone breaker, you can roll through or spot dodge the second hit. It's not hard to do either imo.

Couple other things I noticed:

-Weak Dtilt is super useful at point blank range. It's only one frame slower than weak jab, only active for one frame longer. Due to this, and it's more consistent knockback, it's actually a better point blank option than weak Utilt because it has more damage potential. It be hit confirmed/combo'd into a sweet spotted strong command DP at almost any percentage.

-Weak Dtilt can be linked into grab (It may give the opponent a 1 frame window?). So if an opponent shields your weak Dtilts, just go for grab. Dash grab works pretty well if they are farther away, but it probably gives them a 5-6 frame window.

-You can combo a max of 3 weak Dtilts into a strong command DP. Depends on spacing, but it's very easy to feel when you will lose the spacing for the DP. Even with good DI, you can hit two weak Dtilts and still hit the strong command DP. The difference between two weak Dtilts and three is only 1%.

- A lvl 2 Focus Attack combo'd into what I mentioned above will kill most characters at roughly 70% (combo damage total 31%-32%). A max/lvl 3 Focus Attack at around 65% (combo damage total 38%-39%).

 

[Elessar]

Pardon the double post but since we're in mid conversation it feels warranted. Is it possible to jab lock with hadouken? Like, hadouken their missed tech, hadouken again, again, then they'd have to stand up? Not sure if it's quick enough

Hadouken doesn't hit characters lying on the ground once the wobbling animations over and sadly Ryu isn't fast enough to throw two hadoukens in a manner that they'll hit the opponent before the second wobble ends.

 

[Kaladin]

So, let's talk about the neutral.

Any character's neutral game is all about converting into their win condition. An excellent example in this meta is Luigi. Luigi's win condition is getting a grab, for obvious reasons. Luigi has the tools to get the grab(fireball, u-tilt, sour spot nair, jab, etc). Therefore, Luigi's neutral is all about spacing/baits so he can use these options to get his free 75% true combo.

This begs the question... What is Ryu's win condition? Well, we really don't know for sure yet. That said, personally, I believe that Ryu's win condition is getting his stupid combos and focus attacks off. This means, in the neutral, we need to focus (hehehe) on getting soft Dtilts, soft Utilts, sourspot (or sweet at low%) nair, sourspot (or sweet at low %) fair, Dair, and grab for Dthrow combos at low %. This stays mostly true as they enter kill %, because most of these options also lead into dragon punch.

Now, how do we actually land this things in the neutral? Outside of broad statements like use Hado well, or go for a lot of SH fairs, I really don't know. Thoughts?

 

[Emblem Lord]

So, let's talk about the neutral.

Any character's neutral game is all about converting into their win condition. An excellent example in this meta is Luigi. Luigi's win condition is getting a grab, for obvious reasons. Luigi has the tools to get the grab(fireball, u-tilt, sour spot nair, jab, etc). Therefore, Luigi's neutral is all about spacing/baits so he can use these options to get his free 75% true combo.

This begs the question... What is Ryu's win condition? Well, we really don't know for sure yet. That said, personally, I believe that Ryu's win condition is getting his stupid combos and focus attacks off. This means, in the neutral, we need to focus (hehehe) on getting soft Dtilts, soft Utilts, sourspot (or sweet at low%) nair, sourspot (or sweet at low %) fair, Dair, and grab for Dthrow combos at low %. This stays mostly true as they enter kill %, because most of these options also lead into dragon punch.

Now, how do we actually land this things in the neutral? Outside of broad statements like use Hado well, or go for a lot of SH fairs, I really don't know. Thoughts?

Ryus win condition has not changed in over 20 years.

People do something stupid, you dragon punch them.

 

[MoveMan1]

Not a competive player, but I found that a good way to perform reverse b shoyuken with street inputs is to put in right, down, down-right, up-left. For reverse hadoken, it's down, down right, right, left.

Dunno how to reverse Hurricane Kick, though...

 

[Elessar]

I have some matches I'll try uploading. I usually only upload matches where I lost and can't immediately tell why or how,so these are all matches of me losing. That being said, I think that we need to analyze matches and see what worked, how, and why in the neutral when trying to zone in for our combos. I found some degree of success in forcing a shield with shakunetsu and then running in to grab thus punishing the shield. I try to condition opponents to be afraid of shielding so I can then approach with a nair. Essentially, lay some form of frame trap with my hados as to force the to either take dmg from the hado or risk taking damage from either a grab or a nair.

I do believe that our neutral will be focused on spacing with our pokes and frame traps with hado (as I described) forcing poor approaches which we can punish.

Again, I know this isn't very specific, but I feel that we need to analyze footage and devise our neutral from that. Empirical evidence more than theory crafting.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That is how i play in a nutshell. I go for combos when I see a big opening or my opponent took a huge risk, but its mostly solid neutral, pokes and frame traps.

 

[mimgrim]

Not a competive player, but I found that a good way to perform reverse b shoyuken with street inputs is to put in right, down, down-right, up-left. For reverse hadoken, it's down, down right, right, left.

Dunno how to reverse Hurricane Kick, though...

True Dragon Punch True Fireball, and EX Fireball are not so hard to B-reverse due them involving face forward motions. Just do the motion you do and quickly hit back.

Hurricane Kick is a ***** to B-reverse and I have only been able to get done once or twice in the past and unable to replicate it since. Timing is strict as all hell.

 

[Kaladin]

Ryus win condition has not changed in over 20 years.

People do something stupid, you dragon punch them.

And if p

I have some matches I'll try uploading. I usually only upload matches where I lost and can't immediately tell why or how,so these are all matches of me losing. That being said, I think that we need to analyze matches and see what worked, how, and why in the neutral when trying to zone in for our combos. I found some degree of success in forcing a shield with shakunetsu and then running in to grab thus punishing the shield. I try to condition opponents to be afraid of shielding so I can then approach with a nair. Essentially, lay some form of frame trap with my hados as to force the to either take dmg from the hado or risk taking damage from either a grab or a nair.

I do believe that our neutral will be focused on spacing with our pokes and frame traps with hado (as I described) forcing poor approaches which we can punish.

Again, I know this isn't very specific, but I feel that we need to analyze footage and devise our neutral from that. Empirical evidence more than theory crafting.

Reminds me of Pika's T jolt approach/conditioning. I'll have to give this a shot.

 

[Z1GMA]

It's pretty funny how Ryu is the only character in this game that have access to Multi Buffering, sort of like in Brawl, hah.

 

[Champ Gold]

Off stage Ryu is something I'm interested in working with. Other than a spike, I need to work with the F-air and B-air.

Also Off stage hurricane kick; bad idea unless you have a stock lead

 

[keronshb]

His projectile game is pretty good. It's no Link, but you can still use the various ones + jabs to bait a lot of people.

 

[.Shìkì]

His projectile game is pretty good. It's no Link, but you can still use the various ones + jabs to bait a lot of people.

I still think Link is worse, because on top of rather quick multihits over multihits he has far more reach and projectiles than Lucas, also has a Z-air and generelly just pisses me the **** of when I'm playing Ryu... That goddamn two-hit forward smash kills Ryu uncharged at like 70% with bad DI. I really, really hate that MU.

 

[Kaladin]

Has anyone tested Ryu footstool combos yet? If not I'll try to do that later.

 

[keronshb]

Has anyone tested Ryu footstool combos yet? If not I'll try to do that later.

I saw a video on it awhile ago, I just can't find it anymore. Someone did like a running reversed fair (hit them in the face with the back of his thigh) which launched them toward Ryu, allowing him for a footstool.

 

[Kaladin]

I saw a video on it awhile ago, I just can't find it anymore. Someone did like a running reversed fair (hit them in the face with the back of his thigh) which launched them toward Ryu, allowing him for a footstool.

So a RAR fair? I like it.

 

[keronshb]

I guess I should post this here, since I was directed here too. So sorry if it seems like a repeat of my topic.

I can defend pretty good as Ryu and get some good read kills/Focus' in. I can use projectiles to bait/distract, etc. I just seem to have a problem with actually going in for the kill, rather then letting the kill come to me. It seems like his strong DTilt is a good poke and his strong neutral A is good, as well as run/fair/nair, but compared to shield/grab I can't seem to get off the weak/strong tilts as good.

 

[Kaladin]

I guess I should post this here, since I was directed here too. So sorry if it seems like a repeat of my topic.

Keep playing the nuetral, keep pressure on. If you land a soft d or utilt, dragon punch the hell out of them. Also, if you get desperate, Dthrow kills about the same range as Marth Uthrow.

 

[onehundredhitz]

I guess I should post this here, since I was directed here too. So sorry if it seems like a repeat of my topic.

Throw fire hadoukens and position sh nairs so that the last very frames hit them at the bottom in case they perfect shield, you can still get them with dtilts or DP even.

 

[icraq]

Has anyone tested Ryu footstool combos yet? If not I'll try to do that later.

rush hour smash uploaded one with False doing some combos out of focus attack. he'd reverse weakspot nair into footstool into fast fall nair into whatever after the reset.

the only other possible footstool combo i've found is utilt1 x2 or x3 depending on percent and then quickly jumping forward and spamming jump, then fastt falling with nair. i've never done it on a human.

 

[Signia]

Ryu has a lot of hitlag on his aerials.

"Frame Cancelling" is a technique that allows high hitlag moves like Falco and Ganon's dair to lead to new combos. The way it supposedly works is if you hit an aerial the frame before you hit the ground, your landing lag will tick away during the hitlag (it works on all aerials but the effective is only noticeable for high hitlag moves).

So, Ryu should have some applications for this. One situation where it might actually be practical is after landing a focus attack, where you get a free aerial, and on a successful FC you'd get extra time to follow up.

 

[Elessar]

I was playing some games yesterday and I realized something: grabbing serves no purpose with Ryu past 60%. I mean, think about it, once a character is at 60% or past it, they are within kill range essentially. If you can land a solid combo that ends with a true SRK you should be KOing your opponent (it is still char dependant but true SRK KOs at 80). So why waste an opening with a grab when Ryu's grab serves no other purpose than racking up dmg? He has no follow up, no kill throws, throwing doesn't leave our opponents in a position advantageous to us (and in some cases it actually favors them since we reset spacing), and we don't really want them to be off stage over onstage since Ryu doesn't seem to be a gimping char. I honestly can't think of a valid reason to grab someone past 60%. Yet I kept doing it because I'm so used to it and then I regretted it because it was actually a wasted punishing opportunity.

In essence, once our opponent reaches 60% we shouldn't even consider grabbing an option. If your opponent is shielding and is within grabbing range go for a collarbone breaker instead (h ftilt), and if they aren't shielding, depending on their dmg, go for a combo that ends with a true SRK and you should be able to get the stock.

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Considering that there' a lot of ways to combo into True SRK with Ryu as is, this really good idea to have. The only thing I problems with Ryu is actually landing a stock on my foe. Once they reach 80 - 95% (Kill range for some of Ryu's attacks), they start to run away because they know what to expect, even going as far as Perfect Sheilding the overhead (Collarbone Breaker) to avoid any set-up. So for me, it becomes a game of cat and mouse if I can't take a stock as soon as possible.

 

[icraq]

In essence, once our opponent reaches 60% we shouldn't even consider grabbing an option. If your opponent is shielding and is within grabbing range go for a collarbone breaker instead (h ftilt), and if they aren't shielding, depending on their dmg, go for a combo that ends with a true SRK and you should be able to get the stock.

yeah I agree, I've been trying to avoid grabbing around those % ranges, telling myself I should have just DP'ed their face instead. but i come from a grab happy main, it's hard to kick that habit. just for reference, it takes 3 pummels and a backthrow to make up for the damage you could've gotten from a DP instead of a grab, so they need to be around 100% to get 3 pummels off.

i've been thinking about an off stage gimp tho, if you back throw off stage and immediately throw a slow hadouken and it forces an air dodge, you can punish their air dodge with a dair/nair.

ryu can go off stage pretty far as long as he saves his second jump for his recovery.

 

[Kaladin]

Talking about the conditioning with hados to force shield then grabbing, They always seem to shield the hado and drop their shield before I get a grab. What range/speed of hado can all pull this off with?

 

[Elessar]

yeah I agree, I've been trying to avoid grabbing around those % ranges, telling myself I should have just DP'ed their face instead. but i come from a grab happy main, it's hard to kick that habit. just for reference, it takes 3 pummels and a backthrow to make up for the damage you could've gotten from a DP instead of a grab, so they need to be around 100% to get 3 pummels off.

i've been thinking about an off stage gimp tho, if you back throw off stage and immediately throw a slow hadouken and it forces an air dodge, you can punish their air dodge with a dair/nair.

ryu can go off stage pretty far as long as he saves his second jump for his recovery.

I'm very used to grabbing as well, even if Link isn't grab happy all my alts are (Fox, Sheik, ZSS, Lucina) so I'm used to going for a grab without giving it a second thought. That habit is really hard and annoying to get rid of, but I am quite confident that it is a core part of Ryu's meta. It'll take take, but we need to get unused to grabbing.

On the gimping, I would again question the efficiency. I mean, you land a grab yes, go for it, but I do think that we should always go for combos rather than a grab. The only chance that comes to mind where this would be perfect is if we land this combo string:

Tdtilt - Tdtilt - TUtilt - TUtilt - grab - pummel x 3 or 4 - throw towards off stage.

In that case you racked some nice dmg from that combo (27% approx) so there should be enough hitstun/kb for the hado to either connect or force an air dodge far away enough from the Ledge to go for a safe gimp.

Talking about the conditioning with hados to force shield then grabbing, They always seem to shield the hado and drop their shield before I get a grab. What range/speed of hado can all pull this off with?

It depends on your distance and opponent. I usually throw a True fast shakunetsu to put pressure due to speed and then rush after it. If they jump you can intercept with an aerial, anti air, or SRK. If they shield, you can go for a grab. It's important for it to be a fire hado since it is a multihit move. If they PS a normal hado you're in trouble, but a fire hado forces them to remain in shield or else get hit by the multi-hitboxes.

A good way of getting a feel of the distance is to go to training and race your hados. Throw them and then run after them, see how long it takes you to catch up? can you catch up? what's the closest you can get? Try to get these distances memorized so you get a feeling of the hado's speed you need to create the frame trap.

 

[Deleted member]

I think Nair could develop into something surprisingly useful for any gimping attempts offstage simply because of its mostly horizontal trajectory on both the fresh and late hitboxes as well as the fact that the late hitbox itself actually sits out for a decent amount of time.

To me it seems like a lower commitment option than his other aerials, but I haven't really had the chance to try much at all in terms of going for gimps with Ryu yet.

 

[roymustang1990-]

That shield baiting true fireball into dash grab is great stuff! My only problem with it is your opponent is still given the option to roll away but that issue is universal.

 

[Z1GMA]

Guys, what are your thoughts on weak Ftilt?

 

[Kaladin]

Guys, what are your thoughts on weak Ftilt?

It's a worse hard jab poke wise, but can function as a decent mid range combo starter.

 

[keronshb]

What's a good distance to get weak D-Tilt/weak U-Tilt? Nailing these two straight seem to be a bit of a problem, compared to grabbing. Doing NAir sometimes helps, but then also gets guarded the other half the time and I end up getting thrown.

 

[Elessar]

What's a good distance to get weak D-Tilt/weak U-Tilt? Nailing these two straight seem to be a bit of a problem, compared to grabbing. Doing NAir sometimes helps, but then also gets guarded the other half the time and I end up getting thrown.

For Tap utilt you need to be right next to your opponent, so you have to wait for either a solid read or a punish of a Telegraphed laggy move (like a charged smash). Tap utilt is slightly easier because it was more range but the same spacing rule applies basically.

If you can't approach with a landing nair, try doing an empty sh. Mix up your approach and games and try to adapt to your opponent since not only do you have to take the MU into account bit also the player's personal style.

 

[mimgrim]

I was playing some games yesterday and I realized something: grabbing serves no purpose with Ryu past 60%. I mean, think about it, once a character is at 60% or past it, they are within kill range essentially. If you can land a solid combo that ends with a true SRK you should be KOing your opponent (it is still char dependant but true SRK KOs at 80). So why waste an opening with a grab when Ryu's grab serves no other purpose than racking up dmg? He has no follow up, no kill throws, throwing doesn't leave our opponents in a position advantageous to us (and in some cases it actually favors them since we reset spacing), and we don't really want them to be off stage over onstage since Ryu doesn't seem to be a gimping char. I honestly can't think of a valid reason to grab someone past 60%. Yet I kept doing it because I'm so used to it and then I regretted it because it was actually a wasted punishing opportunity.

In essence, once our opponent reaches 60% we shouldn't even consider grabbing an option. If your opponent is shielding and is within grabbing range go for a collarbone breaker instead (h ftilt), and if they aren't shielding, depending on their dmg, go for a combo that ends with a true SRK and you should be able to get the stock.

It's called positional advantage and forces them into a trap situation.

Smash players highly underrate the use of positional advantage.

 

[Elessar]

It's called positional advantage and forces them into a trap situation.

Smash players highly underrate the use of positional advantage.

Could be, by why pursue a positional advantage when you can take the stock? That was my point. To equate to other games, if you have the chance to start a combo that will Def KO your opponent, why go for a grab that you know won't? Likewise, if you opponent is at 60%+, why go for a grab that you know won't kill instead or a basic combo which will take the stock?