SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
The SBR is considering the possibility of starting a project to release balance patches for Brawl using Ocarina (or GeckoOS) to hack the game (note: This is a software hack, not a hardware hack. All it requires is an SD card and a copy of Twilight Princess). The purpose of this project is NOT to change the way Brawl fundamentally works. There would be no sweeping changes to the game engine itself, no Melee air dodge, no speed increase, no increase in shield stun, no widespread increase in hitstun, etc. This project would be to simply try to balance the game as best as we possibly can. This could potentially add infinite replayability to the game, and could theoretically lead us to having one of the most balanced fighters on consoles if we continue this project for long enough.
No fighting game has ever before released balance patches throughout the game’s lifespan in order to better balance the game, and Brawl is no exception. The Smash series in and of itself is not balanced to keep in mind the competitive rulesets that we make for them. 1v1, stage bans, stage strikes, counter picking, no items… there is quite an extensive list of complicated rules we’ve created in order to make Smash competitive. In fact, we’ve done so much to the game already that it is no longer the same Smash game that was included in the box. This is an entirely new Smash that we, the smash community, have created. Personally, I think of what we’ve done to Smash is something akin to like what Counterstrike did to Half-Life. CS was merely a mod of HL at first, using the same basic engine altered in many ways using the modding programs that came with the game. By making HL run under different rules that they made up, things like having rounds and money to buy weapons every round, along with new skins for the game itself, CS became an entirely different entity that changed a game focused on FFA deathmatch not meant to be too serious into a hardcore competitive FPS. CS took off to become a far more popular multiplayer game than HL ever was by itself, and the competitive CS community is enormous even today. While we, unfortunately, may not have tools packed in by the developers to make a mod, we still did the exact same thing by making up our own rules that were not included with the original game itself. Although many of us refuse to admit it, we have already created a “counterstrike” for Smash. And now we have the opportunity to take it farther.
Let me give you an example of what I’m referring to with this project. This is a quick example (that I personally made right now) of what we could possibly do to balance DeDeDe:
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DeDeDe
Nerfs
- Standing grab slower by ~2-4 frames.
- Knockback of Back air reduced by 20% (i.e. current knockback at 80% would now apply for 100%)
- Back air starting animation slower by ~2-5 frames
- Damage of Down throw reduced from 8% to 6%
- Spotdodge length increased by ~1-2 frames
Synopsis: DeDeDe has a harder time with KOing and racking up damage as fast as he used to with his usual methods. But he still doesn't have a difficult time with actually racking up the damage, as his main methods of doing so haven't decreased by much. Also, he is more punishable spotdodge, and his standing grab isn't as fast as it used to be (so he no longer has the infinite grab and it makes it slightly more difficult to get the grab).
Buffs
- Waddle Dee damage increased from 5% to 8%
- Waddle Doo damage increased from 7% to 12%
- Starting animation of Down B slightly faster
- Increased priority of Neutral air
- Increased damage of Neutral air from 12% to 15%
- Slightly increased knockback of Neutral air
Synopsis: Increasing his options to rack up damage with by buffing a few attacks. Also potentially giving him another viable, yet situational, KO option.
---------------------------
These sorts of changes, along with a few other additions such as no tripping and >3 minute replays, are what this potential project would try to accomplish. However, this would be an EXTREMELY difficult and long process, so if the SBR decides to take this on, then we’ll have one hell of a job to do.
That’s where you guys come in. The SBR might be willing to continue with this project… if its actually possible. But there are so many things we don’t know how to alter yet through the hacks, so this project could never start if we tried to figure these out on our own! We’d like you guys to help us out in figuring out the codes for some different values we may want to alter if we create patches, because if the coding and hacking is out of the way then this patch could potentially become a reality. Here is a list of some of the things we’d like to know how to hack:
---------------------------
Individual attacks:
1. Damage
2. Knockback
3. Move start-up and cool-down
4. Changing the sizes of hitboxes
5. Priority
6. Damage-scaled knockback (meaning the increase in knockback of attacks as percents increase)
7. Hitstun
8. Speed of attack itself
9. Landing lag of aerials
Other properties:
1. Speed of character as a whole
2. Weight of character
3. Length of recovery
Misc:
1. Exceeding the 400 line code limtation
2. Adding tags to replays
3. Default settings when you start up your Wii to be 3 stock, 8 minutes, and team attack on
4. Removing the glitch for characters such as Ganondorf and Marth where they have extra landing lag when they land after using a recovery move to grab the ledge.
---------------------------
Any and all help is appreciated. If you discover a code that we actually end up using, you will receive credit for creating/discovering it. I truly hope this project comes to fruition, as I see potential in its future, but we can’t do it without your help!
EDIT: Here are some additional posts I made later on to clarify a few points
[FONT="]
No fighting game has ever before released balance patches throughout the game’s lifespan in order to better balance the game, and Brawl is no exception. The Smash series in and of itself is not balanced to keep in mind the competitive rulesets that we make for them. 1v1, stage bans, stage strikes, counter picking, no items… there is quite an extensive list of complicated rules we’ve created in order to make Smash competitive. In fact, we’ve done so much to the game already that it is no longer the same Smash game that was included in the box. This is an entirely new Smash that we, the smash community, have created. Personally, I think of what we’ve done to Smash is something akin to like what Counterstrike did to Half-Life. CS was merely a mod of HL at first, using the same basic engine altered in many ways using the modding programs that came with the game. By making HL run under different rules that they made up, things like having rounds and money to buy weapons every round, along with new skins for the game itself, CS became an entirely different entity that changed a game focused on FFA deathmatch not meant to be too serious into a hardcore competitive FPS. CS took off to become a far more popular multiplayer game than HL ever was by itself, and the competitive CS community is enormous even today. While we, unfortunately, may not have tools packed in by the developers to make a mod, we still did the exact same thing by making up our own rules that were not included with the original game itself. Although many of us refuse to admit it, we have already created a “counterstrike” for Smash. And now we have the opportunity to take it farther.
Let me give you an example of what I’m referring to with this project. This is a quick example (that I personally made right now) of what we could possibly do to balance DeDeDe:
---------------------------
DeDeDe
Nerfs
- Standing grab slower by ~2-4 frames.
- Knockback of Back air reduced by 20% (i.e. current knockback at 80% would now apply for 100%)
- Back air starting animation slower by ~2-5 frames
- Damage of Down throw reduced from 8% to 6%
- Spotdodge length increased by ~1-2 frames
Synopsis: DeDeDe has a harder time with KOing and racking up damage as fast as he used to with his usual methods. But he still doesn't have a difficult time with actually racking up the damage, as his main methods of doing so haven't decreased by much. Also, he is more punishable spotdodge, and his standing grab isn't as fast as it used to be (so he no longer has the infinite grab and it makes it slightly more difficult to get the grab).
Buffs
- Waddle Dee damage increased from 5% to 8%
- Waddle Doo damage increased from 7% to 12%
- Starting animation of Down B slightly faster
- Increased priority of Neutral air
- Increased damage of Neutral air from 12% to 15%
- Slightly increased knockback of Neutral air
Synopsis: Increasing his options to rack up damage with by buffing a few attacks. Also potentially giving him another viable, yet situational, KO option.
---------------------------
These sorts of changes, along with a few other additions such as no tripping and >3 minute replays, are what this potential project would try to accomplish. However, this would be an EXTREMELY difficult and long process, so if the SBR decides to take this on, then we’ll have one hell of a job to do.
That’s where you guys come in. The SBR might be willing to continue with this project… if its actually possible. But there are so many things we don’t know how to alter yet through the hacks, so this project could never start if we tried to figure these out on our own! We’d like you guys to help us out in figuring out the codes for some different values we may want to alter if we create patches, because if the coding and hacking is out of the way then this patch could potentially become a reality. Here is a list of some of the things we’d like to know how to hack:
---------------------------
Individual attacks:
1. Damage
2. Knockback
3. Move start-up and cool-down
4. Changing the sizes of hitboxes
5. Priority
6. Damage-scaled knockback (meaning the increase in knockback of attacks as percents increase)
7. Hitstun
8. Speed of attack itself
9. Landing lag of aerials
Other properties:
1. Speed of character as a whole
2. Weight of character
3. Length of recovery
Misc:
1. Exceeding the 400 line code limtation
2. Adding tags to replays
3. Default settings when you start up your Wii to be 3 stock, 8 minutes, and team attack on
4. Removing the glitch for characters such as Ganondorf and Marth where they have extra landing lag when they land after using a recovery move to grab the ledge.
---------------------------
Any and all help is appreciated. If you discover a code that we actually end up using, you will receive credit for creating/discovering it. I truly hope this project comes to fruition, as I see potential in its future, but we can’t do it without your help!
EDIT: Here are some additional posts I made later on to clarify a few points
[FONT="]
[/FONT]"we shouldn't play this game if we have to do this"
Ah yes, I forgot to talk about that point. We all like Brawl very much as it is now (with a few exceptions here and there). This project did not come about because we were somehow unsatisfied with how the game is right now. This project was proposed because we could take this game to the next level of balance. As someone pointed out earlier, the most balanced competitive game right now, Starcraft, was made that way through years of patching the game to fix its balance. Nothing was wrong with the game when it was unbalanced before. But the game became infinitely better after they patched it.
There is no harm in trying this out. Worst case scenario, this doesn't succeed or happen, and we all just go back to playing normal Brawl. Which isn't really a bad scenario because we already enjoy Brawl the way it is now. We just want to take a great game and make it even better.
"So I would HIGHLY suggest that we get L-Cancel as part of the patch to make the game faster."
Absolutely not. I'm sorry, but the Melee 2.0 project is completely separate from what this potential project is trying to accomplish. This project doesn't aim to change how Brawl works, or to add ATs or anything. This project is to take Brawl as it is now, and simply balance the characters further. Nothing else (other than some misc additions like no tripping).
I'm not saying that there won't be some sort of SBR project to make a Melee 2.0 (or something like that) in the future. All I'm saying is that this current project is not aiming to fundamentally change the game.
We are not looking to replace this as the competitive standard or something like that. If these patches actually happen, then we're simply hoping some TOs find it interesting enough for a side-tournament or something. If it catches on, then that's awesome. If it doesn't, then it can just stay as an interesting diversion for some people.