"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[SSJ5Goku8932]

There are several things I don't agree with at all.

First of all, Charizard's Flamethrower and Rock Smash are indeed better than Ganondorf's Flamethrower and Rock Smash. Oh wait. Apparently that was a dumb thing to say. I'll instead refer to them as Charizard's neutral B and side-B. Yes I'd trade for Charizards neutral B over Ganon's for reasons obvious. The side-B is not such an obvious choice. The rock smash can do very good damage and can kill if sweet-spotted but has very few follow-ups and has a slow start-up and finish. Flame choke does ok damage and can kill from as low as 0% (along with you) if successful near a ledge. It also has tons of follow-ups and allows for tech chasing. I'd probably take Ganon's side-B over Charizards.

D-tilt is pretty close. They're about equal in terms of range, damage and speed and both sweetspot at the tip. Charizard's knocks away horizontally if sweet-spotted, Ganon's goes vertical. I wouldn't say Charizard is any better in this department.

F-tilt is also pretty close. They have compareable speed, power, knockback and range. You can angle Charizard's, which I always like having the option of doing, but Ganon's knock the target more horizontally which can potentially kill people earlier (angles you know) and screw over people with poor horizontal recoveries like Ike, Link, Ganon, etc. I think I'd choose Ganon's F-tilt.

Charizard's D-air is certainly not as good as Ganon's. Where'd that even come from? As an attack on stage Charizard's can't even compete. Ganon's does more damage, has more hit-stun and can lead into a myriad of other attacks. Also it can be short-hopped canceled and is notorious as an on-stage kill move. Off-stage I'd also go with Ganon's since it is simply more powerful. It will kill earlier.

Everything else you listed (fair, bair, gliding, the up-b and grab game) I'd trade, sure. I'd also trade for Charizard's ground movement speed over Ganon's.

But next time think before you just rattle off your best moves and claim them as superior to Ganondorf's.

Rock smash can lead to a dashed up smash or grab.Also its Startup is a good price to pay, Comparing with the result. Its ending lag is not as easily punished, Because of the shards.It can be used as a counter too.

F-Tilt, Ganon's better.It has better knockback, And not to mention the Sparta references.

Ganon has the better Dair no doubt.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Yeah, that sure made a lot of sense.

Yes it did make sense...

So what's with the sarcy tone?

 

[@HomE]

YOU HAVE NOT SEEN GAY UNTIL YOU SEE SQUIRTLE DANCE AND JUMP ALL AROUND YOU, SQUIRTING ITS **** ON YOU, FORMING AN IMPENETRABLE WALL THAT YOU ARE DEFENSELESS TO STOP.

I have been on the receiving end of this as Ganon, and let me tell you... ITS AWFUL.... Squirtle can literally jump back and forth over Ganon, hitting with you constantly with aerials and once he starts hitting you, if Squirtle doesnt screw up, its VERY difficult to stop him.

 

[_clinton]

I have been on the receiving end of this as Ganon, and let me tell you... ITS AWFUL.... Squirtle can literally jump back and forth over Ganon, hitting with you constantly with aerials and once he starts hitting you, if Squirtle doesnt screw up, its VERY difficult to stop him.

Funny...he sounds like any other character who has a worth something air game (although I guess Squirtle is like that on the ground as well to a point...thank god it dies almost as fast as JP)

 

[@HomE]

Funny...he sounds like any other character who has a worth something air game (although I guess Squirtle is like that on the ground as well to a point...thank god it dies almost as fast as JP)

Squirtle has much better air mobility IMO. JigglyPuff has really good horizontal movment but his vertical is limited. Squirtle on the other hand has crazy horizontal and decent vertical air movment. also hes alot smaller, and for ganon thats a BIG problem.

Soooo Squirtle is faster(in the air) and smaller then most other chars with a decent air game...

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

He has a great air game you mean,not to mention his ground game is not bad.He has a combo that I think is guarenteed,Upthrow to 2 aerials.His grab game is great too.

But that is why you should outpredict him.He dies quick.

 

[@HomE]

I agree, usually a stock vs Squirtle starts with Me(Ganon) getting hit about 25 times, and then landing literally 3 -4 hits and killing Squirtle before I die. but its VERY frustrating as Ganon in that situation, Its difficult to remain calm and try to escape the tiny terror and accually land a hit. But once Ganon lands a hit he has MASSIVE momentum that is difficult for most characters to deal with

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Squirtle to Ganadorf is like Little Mac to Mike Tyson(Or whoever that was)
except Squirtle cannot one hit ko him when he twitches.

 

[_clinton]

Squirtle to Ganadorf is like Little Mac to Mike Tyson(Or whoever that was)
except Squirtle cannot one hit ko him when he twitches.

How dare you compare the ultimate ele. school yard bragging rights of beating Mike Tyson to Squirtle vs. Ganondorf! ^_^

 

[@HomE]

I think we have covered Squirtle... Are we going to keep this moving?

 

[Squirrely]

I've already said my bit on all three. I don't know what I can do to keep things moving.

 

[Teronist09]

i just thought I'd add squirtle can uptilt lock for a long time if they follow your sdi.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

So, is 80:20 Squirtle, 65:35 Ivysaur, 65:35 Charizard a close enough ratio?

 

[TP]

Where did those numbers come from, Kalm? Quit being biased against Ganon.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Where did those numbers come from, Kalm? Quit being biased against Ganon.

Took a wild approximation from reading what others had posted. I'm not being biased, Twilight, rather a bit more precise than others.

 

[TP]

Took a wild approximation from reading what others had posted. I'm not being biased, Twilight, rather a bit more precise than others.

But... everyone said about 60:40....

Squirtle: Nobody said it was hopeless. 70:30.
Ivysaur: I heard no worse than 60:40 and no better than 60:40, so 60:40.
Charizard: Blah blah blah rock smash blah blah grab range blah blah 60:40.

That's what I saw.

 

[T-block]

If there's any pokemon that's better than 60:40, I'd say it's Ivysaur, but 60:40 sounds right. 60:40 for Charizard too.

I'm not entirely convinced about Squirtle, but I do tend to play Squirtle not so aggressively against Ganondorf because I'm scared of his hits. It does seem like super aggressive could easily overwhelm Ganondorf though.

 

[Teronist09]

I'm more leaning toward Zard being 55-45 at least. He's the least problematic of the three to deal with out of all the PT's i've fought because he's chokebait. Squirtle maybe 75-25 because of the tiltlock and him being hard to hit.
60-40 Ivy sounds good, though.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

I'm more leaning toward Zard being 55-45 at least. He's the least problematic of the three to deal with out of all the PT's i've fought because he's chokebait. Squirtle maybe 75-25 because of the tiltlock and him being hard to hit.
60-40 Ivy sounds good, though.

You only fought one,.

I agree with everything Teronist said.

Whats with the MK face.

Squirtle changed my mind when I started going aggressive with him.

 

[Teronist09]

You only fought one,.

I agree with everything Teronist said.

Whats with the MK face.

Squirtle changed my mind when I started going aggressive with him.

Silly Goku, I get around more than all that. I've fought like 3-4 PT mains including you.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hey, I've actually played Pokemon Trainers in tournament, and seriously....I don't see Charizard being that bad to Ganon. He has good stuff but nothing truly remarkable that sets him above Ganon it the classic trading hits out of shield game. One good F-tilt out of shield, then some U-air edgeguards, he's not making it back, and that I think balances out decently with the fact Ganon is unsafe and has terrible recovery.

It's the other two that give Ganon problems since they can do more that is safe against him. Squirtle in particular is the safest against Ganon. Like...his Jab and tilts are retardedly difficult to punish. If he knows spacing, Ganon can't land much out of shield on him. He can duck under a ton of his stuff. And he can punish you for randomly throwing out attacks. Yeah, the other two die from a F-tilt easily too, but they aren't in Ganon's range as often as Charizard is.

Go ahead and post whatever number you want Ray_Kalm....but I'm always going to disagree with you if you insist Charizard has a significant advantage on Ganon.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm more leaning toward Zard being 55-45 at least. He's the least problematic of the three to deal with out of all the PT's i've fought because he's chokebait. Squirtle maybe 75-25 because of the tiltlock and him being hard to hit.
60-40 Ivy sounds good, though.

Hey, I've actually played Pokemon Trainers in tournament, and seriously....I don't see Charizard being that bad to Ganon. He has good stuff but nothing truly remarkable that sets him above Ganon it the classic trading hits out of shield game. One good F-tilt out of shield, then some U-air edgeguards, he's not making it back, and that I think balances out decently with the fact Ganon is unsafe and has terrible recovery.

It's the other two that give Ganon problems since they can do more that is safe against him. Squirtle in particular is the safest against Ganon. Like...his Jab and tilts are retardedly difficult to punish. If he knows spacing, Ganon can't land much out of shield on him. He can duck under a ton of his stuff. And he can punish you for randomly throwing out attacks. Yeah, the other two die from a F-tilt easily too, but they aren't in Ganon's range as often as Charizard is.

Go ahead and post whatever number you want Ray_Kalm....but I'm always going to disagree with you if you insist Charizard has a significant advantage on Ganon.

Seriously folks, Charizard is highly safe against Ganon. He's got nearly the range and safety of Marth.

Ganon's Dtilt is almost definitely punishable via Charizard's dtilt(could somebody double-check, I gave up video games for Lent so I can't experiment).

Charizard however has a ton of safe moves against Ganon, and rock smash is a great counter to reverse uair (too slow in total frames, and the boulder comes out frame 2, you'll get sharded).


This match-up is BAD, I just don't think the charizards are being defensive enough, but based on technical understanding, charizard should be able to out-space you and destroy.


Even worse is the fact that you don't get a reprive when inside Charizard because of the grab range.




Seriously, Charizard players, wall Ganon.

 

[TP]

Charizard is the easiest character to chainchoke by far, IIRC. Just choke him every time he makes any mistake and he'll soon die from choke>ftilt.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Seriously folks, Charizard is highly safe against Ganon. He's got nearly the range and safety of Marth.

Ganon's Dtilt is almost definitely punishable via Charizard's dtilt(could somebody double-check, I gave up video games for Lent so I can't experiment).

Charizard however has a ton of safe moves against Ganon, and rock smash is a great counter to reverse uair (too slow in total frames, and the boulder comes out frame 2, you'll get sharded).


This match-up is BAD, I just don't think the charizards are being defensive enough, but based on technical understanding, charizard should be able to out-space you and destroy.


Even worse is the fact that you don't get a reprive when inside Charizard because of the grab range.

Second, people need to consider that PT is one character. He has safe optoins of swicthing if you know what you are doing. Squirtles killing problem should not be a factor since you can switch. Ivysaur should be switched at High percents to avoid being gimped. He is best played as one character.


Seriously, Charizard players, wall Ganon.

It would help if Stamina was not a factor.I play defensively with Charizard, but a smart person will wait for you to approach, unless that is considered stalling.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Charizard is the easiest character to chainchoke by far, IIRC. Just choke him every time he makes any mistake and he'll soon die from choke>ftilt.

Fair enough, but his spacing game is very difficult to get past, seriously if played properly he's not too different from Marth in this match. Not as hard, but still.

Fair messes with flamechoke especially.

It would help if Stamina was not a factor.I play defensively with Charizard, but a smart person will wait for you to approach, unless that is considered stalling.

True, but like Marth he can space aggressively, tapping shield with his fair, bair, ftilt, and and dtilt to force Ganon to do something. I pretty much explained this when we last talked about Marth and Captain Falcon.

When he does something, punish.


Keep this up for 2 minutes, and then get him off-stage to switch, though that's more a factor that hurts the overall match-up as opposed to specifically charizard.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Seriously folks, Charizard is highly safe against Ganon. He's got nearly the range and safety of Marth.

Hah, that's a very funny statement. Firstoff, Marth isn't an incredibly safe character in most matchups. Marth's a strange character in that his strategy is consistently punishing as opposed to staying safe all the time.

And Charizard isn't NEARLY as safe as Marth. Both onstage and offstage.

Ganon's Dtilt is almost definitely punishable via Charizard's dtilt(could somebody double-check, I gave up video games for Lent so I can't experiment).

Charizard however has a ton of safe moves against Ganon, and rock smash is a great counter to reverse uair (too slow in total frames, and the boulder comes out frame 2, you'll get sharded).

Most of Charizard's moves can be punished with well-timed use of Flame Choke. Jab out of shield has enough range to punish Charizard consistently enough on block. Rock Smash gets punished by Dash Attack.

This match-up is BAD, I just don't think the charizards are being defensive enough, but based on technical understanding, charizard should be able to out-space you and destroy.


Even worse is the fact that you don't get a reprive when inside Charizard because of the grab range.

If you get inside Charizard's grab range on an attack, there really shouldn't be any problem punishing him 95% of the time. He doesn't have the disjoint nor the same range as Marth, so he's nowhere NEARLY as capable of outspacing Ganondorf as Marth is.

Yes, his grab range is a much bigger problem.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Hah, that's a very funny statement. Firstoff, Marth isn't an incredibly safe character in most matchups. Marth's a strange character in that his strategy is consistently punishing as opposed to staying safe all the time.

Huh?

That's the match-ups where he LOSES, Marth generally has a safe zone that he forces the opponent to approach from, and then punishes.

Believe me, I know Marth.

And Charizard isn't NEARLY as safe as Marth. Both onstage and offstage.

Most of Charizard's moves can be punished with well-timed use of Flame Choke. Jab out of shield has enough range to punish Charizard consistently enough on block. Rock Smash gets punished by Dash Attack.

Actually, they're not too different in safety, they've got similar ranges. The thing is charizard isn't as disjointed and doesn't have quite the range. That's actually why the match-up is pretty close.

As pointed out in Ganondorf v. Captain Falcon, it only takes one, and Charizard has more then that.


Rock smash?! Seriously, that's a punisher, it's not really safe at all.

If you get inside Charizard's grab range on an attack, there really shouldn't be any problem punishing him 95% of the time. He doesn't have the disjoint nor the same range as Marth, so he's nowhere NEARLY as capable of outspacing Ganondorf as Marth is.

Yes, his grab range is a much bigger problem.

...

That's what I said, OUTSIDE his safe moves are a problem, INSIDE it's his grab range.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Everyone should consider PT as one character. Squirtles Killing problem is solved by switching. Ivysaur at High percents should switch to prevent gimping. Charizard can switch to avoid pressure, though he can have problems with that.

Anyways, I think its 60-40 or 55-45 Charizard.

Flamethrower and the grabs will screw you over.

 

[_clinton]

Everyone should consider PT as one character. Squirtles Killing problem is soved by switching. Ivysaur at High percents should switch to prevent gimping. Charizard can switch to avoid pressure, though he can have problems with that.

Anyways, I think its 60-40 or 55-45 Charizard.

Flamethrower and the grabs will screw you over.

Funny how Ivysaur can have issues killing as well...and how Squirtle's issues with killing are for the most part based off that stat. timer

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Funny how Ivysaur can have issues killing as well...and how Squirtle's issues with killing are for the most part based off that stat. timer

Not as much as Squirtle,Up air and Fsmash come out quick and will pwn you.

Thats why Squirtle should rack up damage.

 

[washy]

Most of Charizard's moves can be punished with well-timed use of Flame Choke. Jab out of shield has enough range to punish Charizard consistently enough on block. Rock Smash gets punished by Dash Attack.

I don't think rocksmash is that easy to punish and most PTs use it at a spacer. In some of your posts i seriously think you underestimating charizard.

Who do you play against?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Rock Smash is outprioritized by the DA. If I see you throwing out Rock Smash and I'm anywhere within the range of reaching you with DA, you're more likely than not to get punished. The only times you can throw it out safely is after I badly space an approach.

Kosk has a decent PT. Another guy in my area Enochuout also has a competent PT. I've played other PTs in tournament whose names I don't remember (in this matchup specifically) and have done well in it.

All Ganondorf really has to do in this matchup is catch one of Charizard's tilts on his shield at mid range, punish, and once Charizard is offstage it's only a question of gimping with well-placed U-airs. I really just don't see Charizard being safe enough to the point where he can just get away with spacing tilts at maximum range. Charizard doesn't have any really safe KO moves either, so he definitely gets punished significantly for messing up any attempt to throw out a KO move. Of course this goes for Ganon too. =/

Of course, Ganondorf is a terrible character with worse recovery and grab range, so I won't deny Charizard has the advantage. But it doesn't change that I can definitely punish you at mid range if I catch you whiffing a tilt on my shield and edgeguard you effectively.

As for Flamethrower, it's stupid, but what Ganondorf can do is SDI towards Charizard and U-air to punish.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Commander (or whatever your name was), mind updating the chart once again? We've almost filled up all the spots. (Change Falco's match-up with Samus, while you're at it.)

A2zomg, I don't really see what your problem is. You don't even main Ganon and you're trying to defend his match-ups, when they're all horrible. I don't really see what you're gaining out of this, why are you making it sound like Ganon's a lot better than he is?

 

[Squirrely]

Ugh, Wolf. Well he has a projectile, and a decent one at that, so that automatically puts us at a disadvantage. Although it's a bit slow, it does good damage. He can't play keep away for long with the laser but that doesn't bother wolf much. He's a great mid-range fighter too.

Just about all of his ground attacks come out fast and have good range. The ones I'd look out for are jab, f-tilt, f-smash and d-smash. Combined with his shine, I have a tough time approaching head on from the ground, which is bad. I'd approach a grounded wolf with d-airs or otherwise from above, since wolf's u-tilt and smash more or less go completely vertical and don't have the greatest priority.

Unfortunately for ganon, wolf is also pretty good in the air. Mainly because of his wall of pain b-air. That sh*t is tough to get around. Try exchanging hits with u-air if you can space it. Ganon's F-air also outranges it, but it's a bit harder to land since wolf is fairly mobile in the air.

I don't think wolf's grab range is much better than ganon's but his grab game is decent. He has a *very* fast pummel and his down throw can chain into several other moves. (I most often see f-smash)

Like any other character vs. wolf, one of the best times to kill him is while he's recovering. Don't go for the spike, you might get side-b spiked in return. Tipmans are also kind of risky. Ledgehog is probably your safest bet. In fact, ganon and wolf's recoveries are amazingly similar in that they're easy to predict and counter. Wolf can bug ganon with a laser if ganon is recovering from above stage level but ganon can bug wolf with tipmans if wolf is recovering from below. So I guess they're kind of even in this area.

In summary, wolf has the advantage on the ground, a slight advantage in the air, and a projectile.

30:70 in wolf's favor.

 

[Koskinator]

I mained Wolf for the first 3 months of Brawl and still actively sub him today. I'll give you guys a nice write up later on.

 

[TP]

I mained Wolf for the first 3 months of Brawl and still actively sub him today. I'll give you guys a nice write up later on.

Sounds good. Looking forward to it.


Alright guys, we need to end the PT discussion. If nobody has any problem with the following numbers, I suggest we keep them:

Squirtle: 30:70
Ivysaur: 40:60
Fatass: 40:60
PT: 35:65

If anyone else has anything else to say about the PT matchup, please also say if you agree with these numbers.

 

[Koskinator]

Squirtle vs Ganon is 35:65. Total matchup is 40/60.

 

[Squirrely]

Breath-taking wolf write-up.

But I agree on that squirtle/PT summation, kosk.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Squirtle vs Ganon is 35:65. Total matchup is 40/60.

@Whomever decides to finish the chart: We also did the Toon Link match-up I believe (on their boards), which was 70-30 in Tl's favor. Lucario's and Olimar's ratio is also up there. Drop the Wario match-up to 35:65. Switch Falco's ratio with Samus. I have no clue of weather we did Sonic or not. Yeah, we've pretty much filled out the chart.

 

[Teronist09]

@Whomever decides to finish the chart: We also did the Toon Link match-up I believe (on their boards), which was 70-30 in Tl's favor. Lucario's and Olimar's ratio is also up there. Drop the Wario match-up to 35:65. Switch Falco's ratio with Samus. I have no clue of weather we did Sonic or not. Yeah, we've pretty much filled out the chart.

Why're we dropping Wario down? This isn't based on that video of Li is it? -_-