The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[SaveMeJebus]

what is wrong with this rule?

No DSR. A player gets two bans for their first win and an extra ban for each additional win.

 

[John12346]

Because I thought we've established that giving players more stage bans hurts the rest of the cast more than it hurts MK? Everyone else is pretty much forced onto a bad stage, while MK still gets to go to Frigate, Delfino, RC, or Brinstar(although the non-MK opponent gets to choose because he can ban 3 out 4 of them).

If we're not factoring MK into the equation, then I don't see too much wrong with it, although there's no real reason to favor one ruleset over the other, so I think you're gonna have to point out why this works better or something.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Because his ruleset is not proven -yet- to be flawled.

If any idea needs to be tested, why people find too hard just to test it?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I can't think of one character that wouldn't benefit from two stage bans. Character's like Falco, Diddy and ICs may lose two of their best stages, but they also get two ban two of their worst stages. Characters like MK, G&W and Wario may lose some of their best stages, but they can also take away two of their opponent's best stages

 

[Ghostbone]

Because I thought we've established that giving players more stage bans hurts the rest of the cast more than it hurts MK? Everyone else is pretty much forced onto a bad stage, while MK still gets to go to Frigate, Delfino, RC, or Brinstar(although the non-MK opponent gets to choose because he can ban 3 out 4 of them).

If we're not factoring MK into the equation, then I don't see too much wrong with it, although there's no real reason to favor one ruleset over the other, so I think you're gonna have to point out why this works better or something.

Without DSR it's essentially the same for characters such as Diddy, Falco, IC, etc. They get FD and BF banned, they can just counter-pick SV, CS, PS1, etc. Which are all fine stages.

Plus they get to ban RC and Brinstar against MK. Frigate and delfino are perfectly playable against MK. There's even a Snake main in my area who counter-picks MK to Frigate.

I'd say replacing DSR with stage bans would work out in the favour of non MK characters.

 

[DMG]

Edit: DSR being gone benefits non MK characters a bit, but it also means MK getting Delfino/Frigate every game. No variety lol

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I mean, if you think MK going to Frigate/Delfino over and over every game is what the game needs, sure.

They could only choose one in a best of three set and you could just ban them after you have won on them in longer sets or ban a different stage if you don't mind Delfino/Frigate

 

[Xona]

I think too many stages are banned. Also, final destination IS balanced among the top, but between the top and bottom of the tier list, it can create so many unwinnable match-ups, making it probably not a starter in my opinion. The main problem is that almost all of Bowser's good CP's and Zelda's are banned. Temple and Spear Pillar I have found can be great Zelda CP's. Though their banishment IS due to circle camping, which could warrant a ban of the stages.

Except for that we can always ban circle camping itself. If you're running away from your opponent to gain a better position, and you run a complete lap or worse: 2, then you would have already passed that position. If a tactic is broken on a stage, then it fits the warranted criterion for a ban on that stage for sure. And items can be balanced too, but I know debating items is a lost cause. Temple, matches still may be at risk of running to the time limit, EVEN WITH ITEMS ON. I will admit that. But I think there are too many banned stages right now.

Edit: Should be more specific. Non-interceptable circle camping to completely stall the clock out. In other words, the main reason for Temple's banishment. Though Temple would still probably be banned for other reasons. But some of the others: ex. Spear Pillar, might not warrant it any more. Only the version that warrants banning stages would be banned.

 

[WindMajor]

Toon Link would be bottom tier if we banned circle camping from occurring.

 

[Xona]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Uninterpretable circle camping to stall the clock out. Like the trick on Temple.

 

[WindMajor]

You can't ban circle camping because you can't create a clear definition for it.

The Temple trick can be interpreted as constantly running away to a better position.

 

[Xona]

After running 2 complete laps away from the enemy in a row, I'd say the better position clearly would have been passed. At some point, if it is for a better position, then you'd stop and camp there engage the enemy when he or she comes to you, or turn around and engage the enemy from your advantageous position. 5 laps in a row is blatant.

 

[WindMajor]

What if you need to run away from your opponent for the entire 8 minutes because approaching would mean getting *****.

Like if there's only 1 minutes left, and you have the % advantage, so you run 6 laps. You're running away to get a more advantageous position, and even though it may seem "blatant", there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[Xona]

Of course it's advantageous to use the tactic that got the stage banned if you're allowed to! The problem is that more advantageous position is just a stallout. As far as physical position of characters goes, you already passed it. Stalling out a whole minute is definitely stalling.

 

[Ghostbone]

It's funny how people will probably troll you for suggesting that we should legalise stages with circles and ban circle camping.

Yet they'll probably also want scrooging banned on Smashville, when it's very similar.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Or they might want to put a Ledge-Grab Limit on characters.

 

[MechaWave]

Temple annoys me to no end, especially in Taunt Parties. I get KO'd accidentally by this noob and just runs away in a complete circle. I couldn't catch up. I forgot who I was... probably Ganondork.

 

[Zankoku]

Banning the stages where the strategy of circle camping is absolutely unbeatable is so much easier to enforce than making sure people aren't circle camping that the benefit from reduction of human resources required to keep a tournament running properly far outweighs the benefit of making one or two more stages legal.

 

[Overswarm]

Banning the stages where the strategy of circle camping is absolutely unbeatable is so much easier to enforce than making sure people aren't circle camping that the benefit from reduction of human resources required to keep a tournament running properly far outweighs the benefit of making one or two more stages legal.

Thissssssssssssssssss

 

[DMG]

and even then, you're not guaranteed to create a solid definition of circle camping and will have more problems than needed going down that path.

Is it ok to run more than 1 lap? What if I cross through the person and run a lap a different way? What if I just go back and forth from 1 point to the other not going in a circle? If I hit the person with an attack, does it reset my lap count/limit? What if I don't complete the lap, does it still count?

Good luck defining all of that properly when you can just say Temple is banned and avoid ALL of this.

 

[Tesh]

So....can we ban Smashville DMG?

 

[Tin Man]

Temple is also banned for the cave of life iirc.

 

[Zankoku]

So....can we ban Smashville DMG?

Is circle camping broken on Smashville? iirc Temple's and Spear Pillar's issue was that there was enough ground to reverse the direction of the circle at nearly any time, rendering preemptive maneuvers worthless.

 

[BSP]

So if MK can (apparently) get away with unrestricted scrooging on SV, could Sonic HA under the stage there and not get penalized?

 

[Ghostbone]

and even then, you're not guaranteed to create a solid definition of circle camping and will have more problems than needed going down that path.

Is it ok to run more than 1 lap? What if I cross through the person and run a lap a different way? What if I just go back and forth from 1 point to the other not going in a circle? If I hit the person with an attack, does it reset my lap count/limit? What if I don't complete the lap, does it still count?

Good luck defining all of that properly when you can just say Temple is banned and avoid ALL of this.

You're not guaranteed an any more solid definition of scrooging either.

/copy and past your argument substituting relevant words.

Why don't we just ban smashville? Saves a lot of hassle right?

 

[Jack Kieser]

But, we like Smashville. There's a difference.

 

[Zankoku]

There are still rules on "scrooging" or whatever?

 

[DMG]

You're not guaranteed an any more solid definition of scrooging either.

/copy and past your argument substituting relevant words.

Why don't we just ban smashville? Saves a lot of hassle right?

There's a difference though. You have a stage wide problem of circle camping on Hyrule, Hanenbow, etc. It's not specific to one character. MK scrooging on Smashville is a character specific strategy that other characters cannot do because it involves gliding, not jumping from place to place.

Banning "jumping around in a circle" is much harder to define and solidly enforce than "Don't glide under the stage in this manner". Not that I like or agree with a scrooging rule, but they are 2 different scenarios.

There are still rules on "scrooging" or whatever?

In the unity ruleset, no. That's why you had people mad at M2K vs Wyatt on SV because while there was a LGL there was no scrooging/gliding rule.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Characters with projectiles can stop Scrooging. It becomes pretty obvious that they are going to Scrooge when they are standing on the edge of the platform and use their double jump as the platform moves away from them.

 

[MechaWave]

Temple is also banned for the cave of life iirc.

And forever will be. Cave of Life, Circle Camping, huge size, other obvious things. It will never be legal.

 

[B.A.M.]

is unity thinking of testing things like 2 stock matches?

 

[Tin Man]

Woo hoo, Canadians in the BBR-RC ^_^

 

[Ghostbone]

There's a difference though. You have a stage wide problem of circle camping on Hyrule, Hanenbow, etc. It's not specific to one character. MK scrooging on Smashville is a character specific strategy that other characters cannot do because it involves gliding, not jumping from place to place.

Wait aren't you in the Hanenbow thread going on about how we don't care about most characters and we only look at the broken ones?

Banning "jumping around in a circle" is much harder to define and solidly enforce than "Don't glide under the stage in this manner". Not that I like or agree with a scrooging rule, but they are 2 different scenarios.

Pretty sure it's a pretty similar difficulty to restrict both.
"don't travel around a circle more than once without getting hit."
"don't glide under the stage more than once without getting hit."
Both have problems with enforceability, but I'm pretty sure the scrooging rule would be even harder to enforce (if only a little harder). Because you can glide halfway under the stage and go back, and stuff like that.
You do that with a circle you're going to run into the opponent.

 

[Judo777]

Characters with projectiles can stop Scrooging. It becomes pretty obvious that they are going to Scrooge when they are standing on the edge of the platform and use their double jump as the platform moves away from them.

Which character?

 

[Player-1]

Snake...maybe Pit...that's about it.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Woo hoo, Canadians in the BBR-RC ^_^

man I thought you guys were safe.

 

[infiniteV115]

Question about DSR

Hypothetical situation:
-I'm playing somebody I've never met before, I don't know his style, his main, anything
-First game we play is on PS1. I win. Nobody SD'ed or made terrible decisions or anything, I just outplayed him in general. It was a very close match. Last stock last hit.
-I ban some other stage that is not PS1. We both stick with our characters.
-He thinks about how he played on PS1, how he can use the stage's transformations better, and CPs me back to PS1.
-Again, no SDs or terrible decisions or anything. This time, he outplays me and wins. It was very close again (last stock last hit), it looks like he has adapted to my style and used the stage better than I did.
-He bans some other stage that isn't PS1 or the one I banned. We both stick with our characters.
-Right now, I'm thinking about how I played on PS1 and how I can use the stage's transformations better, and I decide to CP- OH WAIT DSR FUUUUUUUUUUU

Why am I not allowed to CP there?
If it's to promote stage diversity, shouldn't he have been disallowed fom CPing to PS1?
If you think the following - it's fair for him to CP PS1 considering if he wants to risk playing on the same stage in the same MU even though he already lost there, he should be rewarded with a win if he has adapted and punished with a loss for choosing it without having adapted - am I not now in the same situation?

I think I should be allowed to CP there; I was able to outplay him when neither of us knew anything about the other player (and obviously we were both fine with PS1 since we striked to that stage). He has been given the chance to try to adapt to my playstyle on the same stage and he won with this chance. Why am I not given the chance to try to adapt to his playstyle on the same stage?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Which character?

Falco, Pit, Diddy, Olimar, Snake, DDD, Wolf, Sheik, Lucario, Samus, Link. Toon Link, ICs, Mario, Peach Pikachu, R.O.B, Sonic and Wario. Maybe also Ness, Lucas, Yoshi and Zelda.

 

[Judo777]

Falco, Pit, Diddy, Olimar, Snake, DDD, Wolf, Sheik, Lucario, Samus, Link. Toon Link, ICs, Mario, Peach Pikachu, R.O.B, Sonic and Wario. Maybe also Ness, Lucas, Yoshi and Zelda.

Sheik can't really use needles to stop scrooging using needles unless she catches MK with it REALLY early. And how the hell can Zelda do it? She can hardly go offstage and she can't use a projectile offstage at all (without dying).

Mario? How is that possible a fireball doesn't even go far enough under the stage to hit a scroogin MK?

Yoshi can't either because he is very limited on his egg toss angles that low. Not to mention MK would probably straight outrun the egg.

Can wolf even fire a laser under the stage without dying?

Lucarios aura sphere is WAAAAAYYYYY too slow to catch someone scrooging.

Olimars pikmin have no knockback except for purples which have really abysmal distance.

Sonic doesn't have a projectile (unless ur referring to spring and then he has to catch the MK before he goes under the stage)

D3 gonna throw a waddle? Cause I'm like 90% sure that D3 throwing a waddle below the stage kills him.

In fact it would be very appreciated if you just explained them all outside of the very few obvious ones you chose. These being Samus, Pit, Snake, Rob, Ness and Lucas.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Sheik can't really use needles to stop scrooging using needles unless she catches MK with it REALLY early. And how the hell can Zelda do it? She can hardly go offstage and she can't use a projectile offstage at all (without dying).

Mario? How is that possible a fireball doesn't even go far enough under the stage to hit a scroogin MK?

Yoshi can't either because he is very limited on his egg toss angles that low. Not to mention MK would probably straight outrun the egg.

Can wolf even fire a laser under the stage without dying?

Lucarios aura sphere is WAAAAAYYYYY too slow to catch someone scrooging.

Olimars pikmin have no knockback except for purples which have really abysmal distance.

Sonic doesn't have a projectile (unless ur referring to spring and then he has to catch the MK before he goes under the stage)

D3 gonna throw a waddle? Cause I'm like 90% sure that D3 throwing a waddle below the stage kills him.

In fact it would be very appreciated if you just explained them all outside of the very few obvious ones you chose. These being Samus, Pit, Snake, Rob, Ness and Lucas.

Get close to the platform and wait for them to use their double jump. They have to double jump before they can use their glide. I am talking about the scrooging that is done on Smashville. Scrooging on any other stage raises you ledge grab count.