The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Conviction]

I'm still shocked at the fact at how much smaller our community has gotten and the other fact people still use the "get better" argument after 3 years of "getting better"

 

[Kewkky]

I could prove this right but they haven't released the full results of the polls (people who voted)

Dude, this LITERALLY translates to "I saw the poll's results and that's what was there. I would show you, but it isn't public yet". Did you already see the results? Because if you didn't, then your argument has ZZEERROO basis, it's all assumptions.

 

[WindMajor]

Then don't make the assumption that "people just want the easy way out". That argument has no evidence to support its claim yet, so it's invalid.

 

[Mekos]

what do u mean evidence. Just talk to people. Ask why they want him banned? Cuz they cant beat mk players. And its usually not the M2ks or Antis lol. Its local people who switch from their main and beat them with a pocket mk.

 

[Jane]

I could try and investigate the other reasons why 686 voted for pro-ban, but it would simply not matter for two reasons.

1. those people lose to non-MK mains. so why do they matter?

2. those people wouldn't be placing in the money anyway, so why do they matter?

i know at this point i'm just making fun of your argument, but its just too easy.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Maybe me and everyone else have a different definition of taking the easy way out. If a character can beat the entire cast(55-45 and above) except for a few characters he goes even with, I think he should remain legal as long as there is still character verity in the tournament results. I think its fine if we have five MKs in the top nine as long as there are also five other characters there.

 

[DeLux]

Before this conversation continues to derail, the BBR-RC specifically worded the question (I actually personally handled most of the semantics of the poll) in order to not start going into intent.

We asked about the binary of yes/no because that's the data we wanted. We weren't interested in motives or intentions because indisputably intentions will always be skewed towards self interest in a democratic system.

 

[Kewkky]

what do u mean evidence. Just talk to people. Ask why they want him banned? Cuz they cant beat mk players. And its usually not the M2ks or Antis lol. Its local people who switch from their main and beat them with a pocket mk.

If I had permission to make a thread asking people why they want MK banned, I think the vast majority of people will NOT say it's because they're too lazy to practice and get better, or anything else that might mean that same thing. Can you prove me wrong here and now? If not, then I guess I'm right.

... That's how I'm seeing your arguments. So, unless you can disprove my argument right here right now, then your argument is just assumptions with no basis.

You probably haven't even asked that many people, considering every time MK is brought up for discussion, you come in to say the same thing every single time: "start practicing, we can beat him, you just have to play differently! Stop being lazy and do it!"... As if people haven't heard THAT since '09.

Maybe me and everyone else have a different definition of taking the easy way out. If a character can beat the entire cast(55-45 and above) except for a few characters he goes even with, I think he should remain legal as long as there is still character verity in the tournament results. I think its fine if we have five MKs in the top ten as long as there are also five other characters there.

And so does 25% of the community, so you're not alone good sir.

 

[Tesh]

yo guys can we talk about pausing?

 

[Kewkky]

yo guys can we talk about pausing?

If I had a sudden bowel problem, I want to be able to pause the game without getting disqualified.

 

[MechaWave]

If I had a sudden bowel problem, I want to be able to pause the game without getting disqualified.

I thought this was an exception.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The poll just asked players if they wanted MK banned, not if it was the right thing to do.

 

[Kewkky]

I thought this was an exception.

Lol, it is. What else is there to discuss about pausing? "Pause when only in an emergency". Penalties? :\

The poll just asked players if they wanted MK banned, not if it was the right thing to do.

Then how did you know most of the voters voted because they are too lazy to get better?

 

[Marc]

The levels of salt in this topic are rising. I suggest people stop the back-and-forth on intentions before the entire discussion has to be locked down yet again.

Oh and @marc: good point. I retract my earlier statement.

Cheers.

 

[Life]

For those not watching the SiiS stream, there's a big thing going down because Judo paused (accidentally or purposely, I'm not sure) against Logic on the last hit of game 3, after it connected. So that's why we're talking about pausing.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Lol, it is. What else is there to discuss about pausing? "Pause when only in an emergency". Penalties? :\


Then how did you know most of the voters voted because they are too lazy to get better?

Because if you actually took the time to get better, you would know that MK can't get away with half of the stuff players let him get away with in tournament. He is the best character in the game but he is beatable. He is not broken because no player can just pick him up and start winning tournaments. You don't have inconsistency in tournaments because of top players losing to random players who main MK.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Y'know, the thing people seem to be missing is that the intention of people voting yes on the poll was to have Metaknight banned, and the intention of those who voted no was to prevent that.

*EDIT* If we're talking motives, that's wholly irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Kewkky]

But I was locking him down....!

Fine Marc, you win.

For those not watching the SiiS stream, there's a big thing going down because Judo paused (accidentally or purposely, I'm not sure) against Logic on the last hit of game 3, after it connected. So that's why we're talking about pausing.

What's wrong about that? It was the last hit, and it was after it connected, so... Logic was already dead. :\

if anything, that would've given Logic AMPLE amounts of time to move his control stick in the proper direction and momentum cancel, so it ended up benefiting him!

 

[Supreme Dirt]

If Judo is given the loss for that match, much salt will be had.

*is reminded of a certain MLG set...*

 

[C.J.]

But I was locking him down....!

Fine Marc, you win.


What's wrong about that? It was the last hit, and it was after it connected, so... Logic was already dead. :\

if anything, that would've given Logic AMPLE amounts of time to move his control stick in the proper direction and momentum cancel, so it ended up benefiting him!

It connected, but the knockback hadn't started yet afaik. So it's a guaranteed kill that has connected but no kb yet vs if you pause you lose a stock.

 

[Kewkky]

It connected, but the knockback hadn't started yet afaik. So it's a guaranteed kill that has connected but no kb yet vs if you pause you lose a stock.

If Judo loses because of that I will lose faith in that TO.

 

[Tesh]

Okay Kewkky, how about I'm getting chaingrabbed and I pause and run to the bathroom. Are refs gonna follow me and obtain evidence of intense diarrhea?

In any case, when you aren't on a load screen, most wii games can be paused with the "home" button. Its nearly impossible to accidentally hit it if you are using a wiichuck/classic and almost every wii would have one if you absolutely need to pause for an emergency.

Especially hype matches where a ref could just hold the wiimote and only pause when its 100% justified.


As for Judo, he technically broke the rules. Obviously you wanna consider the intent of the rules, but what if I'm playing as MK and I get wrecked being edgeguarded by like....sheik or something. I don't die but I wind up going over the LGL in a long match. I wasn't trying to stall (which is what the rule is there to prevent), but are you gonna let me slide if it winds up timing out? Rules are rules.

 

[Mekos]

Because if you actually took the time to get better, you would know that MK can't get away with half of the stuff players let him get away with in tournament. He is the best character in the game but he is beatable. He is not broken because no player can just pick him up and start winning tournaments. You don't have inconsistency in tournaments because of top players losing to random players who main MK.

Exactly! Most mk's can't even kill that well on stage. They have staled their moves right? Yall complain about them spamming downsmash right? Well, that move gets extremely weakened and is hard be killed by if u have Di.

Most mk's get kills by offstage gimps and stuff. U have to learn how to read when they are going to attack. gosh I wish recent vids were up. Nairo is the master of gliding. He didn't get me with one up B at Clash 1 and he did like 25. U can see it coming. Think...If I were him what would I do in this situation.

U keep telling me to prove your points but u haven't disproved mine. Show me 4 players on youtube whose games have advanced and u see them doing different things as the months go by. U wont find many.

 

[popsofctown]

No one brought up Meta Knight's downsmash.

Strawmanning seems too weak a word for this.

Is an extra two characters every time you want to use a second person pronoun so hard?

He is not broken because no player can just pick him up and start winning tournaments.

I picked him up and started placing in money after never having done so before. There lots of more high profile MK cinderellas so I don't know why you would say this.

 

[Kewkky]

Okay Kewkky, how about I'm getting chaingrabbed and I pause and run to the bathroom. Are refs gonna follow me and obtain evidence of intense diarrhea?

Fine. How about this example? Your grandparent is in the hospital undergoing a sensitive operation, and you're expecting a phone call about how it went. You spend your day distracting yourself so you play Brawl. You're doing good in tourney, but your parents might call at any time with bad news. As you're playing a set out, your phone rings. You're anxious as hell and you need to know what's going on, but you also don't want to stop playing it it's just good news!

Is paused allowed for emergencies yet?

In any case, when you aren't on a load screen, most wii games can be paused with the "home" button. Its nearly impossible to accidentally hit it if you are using a wiichuck/classic and almost every wii would have one if you absolutely need to pause for an emergency.

Especially hype matches where a ref could just hold the wiimote and only pause when its 100% justified.

So you're saying there should be a ref standing by with a wiimote for every TV active, since that's the only way the ref can control every setup at a whim. Either that, or what did you have in mind? You can't say a referee will always be there for hyped matches, what about the other matches that may have emergencies too?

As for Judo, he technically broke the rules. Obviously you wanna consider the intent of the rules, but what if I'm playing as MK and I get wrecked being edgeguarded by like....sheik or something. I don't die but I wind up going over the LGL in a long match. I wasn't trying to stall (which is what the rule is there to prevent), but are you gonna let me slide if it winds up timing out? Rules are rules.

There's a difference between Judo's pausing and that LGL example. Judo paused after the match-deciding hit connected, the match was essentially done. The LGL example was a clear-cut example of a broken rule with no loopholes or ways around it, he broke the LGL and the game timed out, that's what this community faces now because people really wanted an LGL bad enough to make it Unity standard.

You saying Judo deserves to lose in that scenario is like saying a Fox who's at his last stock fresh (0%) just usmashed a DDD that's at 250%, then while the DDD started flying off, he thought it was a cool idea to jump off the platform and die for lulz since he already won, should lose the match. Even though the Fox clearly won, DDD was already turning into a star, it's now up for debate whether or not he'll lose the match. Judo clearly won and Logic had lost the match already, so what's the problem here?

 

[Deleted member]

What percent was Logic at when he was hit?

 

[popsofctown]

Judo paused after dealing a killing blow? That should be a loss imo. It's better to have a clearcut rule that pausing isn't allowed than to create a judiciary system for figuring out what is definitely a killing blow and what could have been survived if a pause didn't interrupt proper aerial and drift DI.

And of course someone who jumps off for lulz loses a match. They didn't give Jacobellis a gold medal and a pat on the back..

 

[Tesh]

Kewkky I'm gonna stop you right there. There are situations outside the game that are clearly outside the jurisdiction of the TOs rules. All we are worried about here is the game. Lets say I'm in grand finals vs m2k, game 5, both at 200% and I'm waiting for a phone call from a private detective. He says he is close to uncovering the secret of who slaughtered my family and ninja clan. My phone rings and I answer it on my blue tooth, accidentally rolling because I use shake smash on my wiichuck. Then M2K trips going for the game winning punish. My PI tells me M2K is the one who murdered my clan. I drop my controller and it lands on the pause button.

Should I be allowed a rematch?

 

[Ghostbone]

No, Marc is correct. Directly from the link I conveniently provided you:

There is no specification as to what kind of attack. The case I was referring to is similar to, if in a political candidacy debate, someone makes a statement on say global warming, to which another replies "Well, you don't have much political experience." It's a common way to say something irrelevant to the point made while tricking yourself into thinking you've refuted it.

Again, I never said we should ban MK because you play Melee, obviously that wouldn't make any sense.
So no, I haven't even refuted your argument based on your circumstances are.
The exception is when I called you out on the surgical limits in melee, but that technically wouldn't make your argument false, it would make Melee not worth playing.

To your question, I respond with another. How did you determine this, when "competitive value" is not quantifiable? You've given little justification for this, only assumed it to be true and used it here as your main point. If competitive depth can be defined as (and commonly is) "the amount of unique situations in the game," then surely removing a character decreases the number of of unique situations... but I digress.

Obviously it's hard to define, but think of it this way.
MK is used way more than every other character, top players have been forced to switch over to MK, and counter-picks cn often be reduced to MK dittos.
MK is destroying character variety, so while technically there's less characters, we'll likely see even more character variety, which translates into effectively higher depth.
(Note: I'm waiting for sufficient data form MK banned tournaments before I claim this as face, but since the only way to gather this data is by banning MK, you saying this isn't true has no data to back it up either, so the only solution is to temporarily ban MK)

Generally, the randomness of items & stages lead to inconsistent tournament results. Although I'm of the opinion that items should definitely have been tested competitively in Brawl (they were tested extensively in tournament in Melee before they were eventually banned; Brawl is much different from Melee, yet the community banned items from the start without any relevant data having been able to be collected on the subject), I think that's a topic for another thread/day. Since we're trying to make a game that wasn't intended to be competitive competitive, inconsistent tournament results is undesirable (<-- that's the main point). That's what casinos are for. Stage legality is a pretty controversial issue, though, so I'm gonna go off on a bit of a tangent here for a sec.
So where do we draw the line? Referring to Melee, good ol' grandpa Kish came up with the "Turnip Threshold," a theoretical threshold where a stage's randomness is deemed acceptable because it does not affect the outcome of a game as much as the randomness of Peach's turnip plucks do, assuming we do not want to ban characters (which we don't cuz that's mean and hurtful to teh children). I guess there are other random aspects in Brawl such as Olimar's Pikmin or something. Something like that. The main issue with it is it isn't quantifiable and not everyone can agree on how much turnips affect the game. A little history for you.

So you'd support Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Mushroom Kingdom, Yoshi's Island N64, Temple, etc. Because they're not random, so we should put up with them right?

You agree that we shouldn't have a LGL right? You realise MK literally makes the game unplayable at that point with his planking? And we should put up with that?

Oh and items are random, spawn points are random, so they randomly favour a player, thus they're uncompetitive

That makes so much sense. I think I'm getting the jist why people who play Melee don't like Brawl... Besides the lack of wavedashing.

That's not why Melee players don't like Brawl.
They quit Brawl long before MK's dominance, or the advent of a LGL. It's to do with the slow pace of the game.

For those not watching the SiiS stream, there's a big thing going down because Judo paused (accidentally or purposely, I'm not sure) against Logic on the last hit of game 3, after it connected. So that's why we're talking about pausing.

Judo should lose, rules are rules.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You saying Judo deserves to lose in that scenario is like saying a Fox who's at his last stock fresh (0%) just usmashed a DDD that's at 250%, then while the DDD started flying off, he thought it was a cool idea to jump off the platform and die for lulz since he already won, should lose the match. Even though the Fox clearly won, DDD was already turning into a star, it's now up for debate whether or not he'll lose the match. Judo clearly won and Logic had lost the match already, so what's the problem here?

Fairly sure that in that situation, the Fox player would lose, on account of his own stupidity. I mean, he had it in the bag, then he ran off the stage and hit a blastzone before his opponent finished being KO'd? That's a fairly dumb thing to do. Don't do it.

If hitting start for non-emergency situations = stockloss/forfeit, it doesn't matter what is happening in the game at all. Shouldn't have hit that button.

 

[Ghostbone]

Fairly sure that in that situation, the Fox player would lose, on account of his own stupidity. I mean, he had it in the bag, then he ran off the stage and hit a blastzone before his opponent finished being KO'd? That's a fairly dumb thing to do. Don't do it.

If hitting start for non-emergency situations = stockloss/forfeit, it doesn't matter what is happening in the game at all. Shouldn't have hit that button.

And in fact, I've seen Melee fox players side-b off the stage accidentally while someone's flying off the top from up-smash.

And you know what? The Fox loses, because the game said they lost.

Pausing is against the rules, Judo paused, ergo, he broke the rules, and as a result he loses the match.

 

[Kewkky]

Kewkky I'm gonna stop you right there. There are situations outside the game that are clearly outside the jurisdiction of the TOs rules. All we are worried about here is the game. Lets say I'm in grand finals vs m2k, game 5, both at 200% and I'm waiting for a phone call from a private detective. He says he is close to uncovering the secret of who slaughtered my family and ninja clan. My phone rings and I answer it on my blue tooth, accidentally rolling because I use shake smash on my wiichuck. Then M2K trips going for the game winning punish. My PI tells me M2K is the one who murdered my clan. I drop my controller and it lands on the pause button.

Should I be allowed a rematch?

Nope, you didn't tell anyone you wanted to pause the game to answer the phone. Hell you could've told the TO beforehand that the detective was on the ninja clan's heels!

If I have an emergency, or a reason to pause the game (like I'm getting the runs from eating chef boyardee earlier that day, or too much nutella), I tell people I'm going to pause the game, wait until they acknowledge it, then get noticeable space between us both (usually when either gets hit with a strong attack with NO followups at all, or after someone gets killed) and pause it. I see no way how this affects a match in any way shape or form negatively. I asked permission, we played normally until there was a period of time where no one was gonna do anything, then I paused... If anything, I would yell that to the referee/TO as well.

Seems like something I would totally allow in a tourney.


@ ghostbone ; nidtendofreak: Telling him he lost after he clearly won because of pausing the game is just as bad as telling him he lost after "GAME!" appeared on screen but him turning the Wii off before the results screen came up. That's what I'm seeing.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The game isn't officially over until the announcer says "GAME!". Anything that happens before then counts where rules and stocks apply. Sucks, but you need to a solid line drawn somewhere. That is the line.

 

[Ghostbone]

Nope, you didn't tell anyone you wanted to pause the game to answer the phone. Hell you could've told the TO beforehand that the detective was on the ninja clan's heels!


@ ghostbone ; nidtendofreak: Telling him he lost after he clearly won because of pausing the game is just as bad as telling him he lost after "GAME!" appeared on screen but him turning the Wii off before the results screen came up. That's what I'm seeing.

At that point, the game has finished.

Before that point, the game hasn't finished.

Simple stuff...

 

[Kewkky]

At that point, the game has finished.

Before that point, the game hasn't finished.

Simple stuff...

Essentially it finishes when you hit a jigglypuff at 999% with a charged Snake fsmash but pause as it connects to see Jiggly's face as she's about to fly off. To me, there still IS no difference, the game ended as soon as jiggs got fsmashed. :\

Unless Judo's attack was NOT a decisive hit and Logic wasn't guaranteed death, to me that's completely fine. Easy way to see this: have Logic set up his DI while pause is on, unpause the game, and see what happens. if Logic dies, then it was obvious he had no chance.

 

[popsofctown]

If I have an emergency, or a reason to pause the game (like I'm getting the runs from eating chef boyardee earlier that day, or too much nutella), I tell people I'm going to pause the game, wait until they acknowledge it, then get noticeable space between us both (usually when either gets hit with a strong attack with NO followups at all, or after someone gets killed) and pause it. I see no way how this affects a match in any way shape or form negatively. I asked permission, we played normally until there was a period of time where no one was gonna do anything, then I paused... If anything, I would yell that to the referee/TO as well.

Seems like something I would totally allow in a tourney.

Is this with your opponent's consent? You can do almost anything with your opponent's consent. You can play on Wario Ware if you both want to.

Jacobellis is becoming too relevant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkQvEHTyjAI

SDing for lolz and zooming in on your opponent's damaged character are both creating rules issues because they're unsportsmanlike. The ruleset doesn't exist to support that. It exists to create a fair competition.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

No one brought up Meta Knight's downsmash.

Strawmanning seems too weak a word for this.

Is an extra two characters every time you want to use a second person pronoun so hard?


I picked him up and started placing in money after never having done so before. There lots of more high profile MK cinderellas so I don't know why you would say this.

What notable players have you beaten and who can you name that has gotten to the top because they picked up MK?

 

[Kewkky]

Is this with your opponent's consent? You can do almost anything with your opponent's consent. You can play on Wario Ware if you both want to.

Of course the opponent will have to know it's an emergency, you can't just casually pause a game, walk away and do whatever you need, then come back as if nothing happened. There should be some reason behind your emergency right? I'm quite sure that everyone who had a real need to press pause would tell their opponents right then and there before pausing (unless it's like some crazy thing that they just drop their controller and run off).

*playing a match against someone, doesn't matter if winning or losing*
*phone gets a text, guy has it within sight*
"Dude I need to take this phone call. My dad's texting me about my grandpa who's in the hospital."

 

[popsofctown]

What notable players have you beaten and who can you name that has gotten to the top because of MK?

I'm not gonna bother, since historically you never concede any point, ever, big or small.

 

[Ghostbone]

Essentially it finishes when you hit a jigglypuff at 999% with a charged Snake fsmash but pause as it connects to see Jiggly's face as she's about to fly off. To me, there still IS no difference, the game ended as soon as jiggs got fsmashed. :\

Unless Judo's attack was NOT a decisive hit and Logic wasn't guaranteed death, to me that's completely fine. Easy way to see this: have Logic set up his DI while pause is on, unpause the game, and see what happens. if Logic dies, then it was obvious he had no chance.

But it hasn't ended yet.

What if Judo, instead of just pausing, LRAS'd? Similar situation, according to you the match is over.

But here's the thing...it isn't, the match is still going, if you can't wait the half a second or so for the character to die, that's your problem.

If someone suicides before the game's over, well then they lose.
If someone pauses before the game's over, well then they lose.