The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Ussi]

Some people have fun pausing the kills... But I'm going to say... Rules are rules :x

Just.. Who is making a big deal of this? Did logic like say "he paused! Dq him"? Or is someone who was watching saying judo should be dq? Cause if logic is fine with it, then should be fine.

 

[Kewkky]

Is this with your opponent's consent? You can do almost anything with your opponent's consent. You can play on Wario Ware if you both want to.

Jacobellis is becoming too relevant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkQvEHTyjAI

SDing for lolz and zooming in on your opponent's damaged character are both creating rules issues because they're unsportsmanlike. The ruleset doesn't exist to support that. It exists to create a fair competition.

Difference between Jacobellis and Judo:


Jacobellis => it wasn't obvious she was going to win, she wasn't "home free". If she was right in front of the finish lime and the competition was leagues behind her, and she decided to do some stupid maneuver while crossing the finish line, I'd still give her the win.

Judo => He was at the finish line, literally one finger's length away, and he was going at an unstoppable speed. No matter what happened, he had won the match already, nothing could stop him.

But it hasn't ended yet.

What if Judo, instead of just pausing, LRAS'd? Similar situation, according to you the match is over.

But here's the think...it isn't, the match is still going, if you can't wait the half a second or so for the character to do, that's your problem.

If someone suicides before the game's over, well then they lose.
If someone pauses before the game's over, well then they lose.

I find this stupid. What could Logic possibly have done to survive, let alone kill Judo before he died? Nothing at all, that's what Logic could've done. His match was decided in that one deciding hit, Logic was unable to do anything at all to survive after that, he was dead even if Judo looked for some way to keep him alive after that hit.

There's a difference between blatantly breaking the rule during the match, and celebrating after a victory before the results pop up.


Plus, I'm assuming the reason why the pause rule is there is to avoid match interruptions. The match was over, Logic was dying with no hopes of survival, Judo was alive and kickin', what is there to interrupt but Logic's dying cry adn eventually becoming a star (or however he died)?



EDIT: Did he get disqualified yet?

 

[Player-1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYDIlH5aLR0

i won.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Kewkky, from what it seems, you're basically alone in your thinking, or largely alone.

The line is when the announcer shouts "GAME!". Anything that makes you lose a stock before that exact moment counts. If you pause 1 millisecond before that line, you take the penalty. You don't "blur" that area and go "eh, close enough". The rule is the rule, the line is the line. Doesn't matter if it was guaranteed he would die, the rule is that if you pause the game for a non-emergency reason, you are guaranteed to take a penalty.

 

[Ussi]

I seriously think this is going overboard. If logic wants him dq'd then dq judo, if not, then whatever, this isn't hurting anyone. This isn't showboating, this is like prolonging the inevitable

 

[Mekos]

Nicole didn't lose to Logic's pocket mk . That's how its done!
She is playing very good smash. Reading her opponents and using good tactics to control the game

 

[popsofctown]

If you watched the news and hype and chaos whatnot after the jacobellis incident the snowboarding professionals all said she could not lose unless she did a method. It was at heart attack at the finish line improbability. There was very little track left, and she had a large lead.

The odds that she fell while doing a method was far far less than 1%, without the method that jump is like walking to her.

 

[Kewkky]

Kewkky, from what it seems, you're basically alone in your thinking, or largely alone.

The line is when the announcer shouts "GAME!". Anything that makes you lose a stock before that exact moment counts. If you pause 1 millisecond before that line, you take the penalty. You don't "blur" that area and go "eh, close enough". The rule is the rule, the line is the line. Doesn't matter if it was guaranteed he would die, the rule is that if you pause the game for a non-emergency reason, you are guaranteed to take a penalty.

And what is this rule based of? The need to play the game for what it is?

 

[Cassio]

eh, I dont understand why some of you have to be so disrespectful. These posts:

shut up mekos. you saw that m2k posted that same EXACT arguement and your trying to sound like your some god of brawl who is so much better than everyone else but the stone cold fact is your not some god of brawl and while your lucas style is different it doesn't change, you just make smarter reads like every other pro/top character main. nobody cares that you did good when you teamed with m2k (who can win double's with a computer falcon on his team) and nobody cares that your the best lucas because lucas is a ****ty character. your opinion is not the be all end all word of the prophets, and the fact that you think the MK mu with lucas is even is sad and ****s on whatever credibility you have. so does saying there are no pros at siis6 when
1. there are plenty there
2. the fact that it's not mk banned ****s over whatever point you were trying to make
3. the fact that you like watching a **** load of MK matches makes me worry about your health.

also, plenty of top level MK players have secondaries they can switch too and will not quit brawl, you've got people like ally and atomsk and vinnie who have characters like wario DDD ICs g&w snake and i can guarentee they won't be quitting just because of the MK ban.

TL:DR
nobody cares that the best lucas likes watching MK dittos and if a few solo mk mains rage quit this game, oh well, new players will rise and join the community and this game will mimic something that's kind of balanced.

That's what I read.

Funny thing is that you'll probably go through the exact same thing as every other top player has gone through: go even and/or beat lots of MKs you face, start calling pro-ban people out because you can do it and they can't, then slowly start losing once other MKs learn the MU and your mixups.

There's only so much you can change in your playstyle, Mekos. This game doesn't have hundreds of possibilities, in the end it all boils down to the same thing: hitting your opponent until they die three times per match, and avoiding death meanwhile. You'll start playing differently, they'll get used to it, then you'll change around again and they'll beat you again, until you stick with the formula that works best for you once they have your character figured out.

It's always been this way. Vs Diddy's early days, vs Wario, vs ICs, vs Snake, vs Diddy's more recent days... They all had a golden age of anti-MK hype, then they declined because as the MKs adapt and learn the opponent's characters and what they can do, the MU gets easier for them. You beating MK may just be a one-way deal, you play far more MKs with varying strategies than MKs play pretty much any Lucas main.


Also Mekos, stop acting so elitistic. It makes others dislike you. *looked at maharba's post*

And the way strong bads logical arguments were treated with ad hominems were really annoying to read. Not to mention the silly assumptions that were made about their opinions as if they didnt know their own thoughts, as well as the assault on Mekos' very impressive record.

Marc as usually made some great points as did Strong Bad. Unfortunately theyve once again gone largely ignored in favor of vague statements and arguments about how the game would be more 'competitive' and the like.

Are you sure banning MK isn't for the best? I mean, the poll was ~75% in favor of a ban. Would you cater to that 25% or the 75%?

Would you cater to a group of 75% of people intent on removing minority civil liberties? Its not as simple as catering to one portion of the community or another, which is why traditionally it takes more than a majority to ban things.

Many people have quit because of MK and many people will continue to quit if MK remains legal while a handful of people will quit if mk gets banned and handful will come back if he gets banned. It's pretty clear what's best for the community.

Sorta disappointed with this. Thats a very large assumption to make with like, no evidence. At most its only something you can ascertain with from the perspective of your region and is quite honestly the best case scenario for any region, while theres many others that could be affected much worse. I hope no decisions are being made off of these types of assumptions.

 

[Ghostbone]

And what is this rule based of? The need to play the game for what it is?

Ok,

Yes Judo would have (probably) won if he didn't pause.

But he paused.

It's the same as if someone suicides while their opponent is flying off the top.

Well it sucks, but they SD'd, and that's their fault, just as if they paused, that would be their fault.

Either way, it should result in the loss of the match in this case.

 

[ADHD]

Jebus for most annoying poster on SWF.

Well 2nd, next to Ripple.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

nothing

10 nothing

 

[popsofctown]

Please delete those posts so we can keep this thread :/

 

[Ghostbone]

nothing

10 nothing

I saw that edit

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I saw that edit

It wasn't worth it

 

[popsofctown]

It was a good edit.

 

[Player-1]

Sorta disappointed with this. Thats a very large assumption to make with like, no evidence. At most its only something you can ascertain with from the perspective of your region and is quite honestly the best case scenario for any region, while theres many others that could be affected much worse. I hope no decisions are being made off of these types of assumptions.

not an assumption, it's a fact, that is, if people who said these things are being serious about it.

 

[popsofctown]

They likely aren't though. There's a big backslider effect. And lots of people who quit because of MK have gotten into other games like starcraft etc, so they wouldn't want to come back.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=308724

what do you guys think of this rule?

 

[Kewkky]

eh, I dont understand why some of you have to be so disrespectful. These posts:

What was so disrespectful in mine? I tried to be careful not to insult anyone. >_>

If you mean that last bit, what I meant was that he should change his post's wording, or else people like Maharba will hate on him because he sounds elitistic.

Would you cater to a group of 75% of people intent on removing minority civil liberties? Its not as simple as catering to one portion of the community or another, which is why traditionally it takes more than a majority to ban things.

Did the "75% of people intent on removing minotiry civil liberties" happen? if it did, I wanna read about that. if it didn't, you have just given me a very unrealistic example, considering about 27-28% of America's population is minority, and not all white americans are anti-minority (in fact, a noticeable small amount is anti-minority).

source

Ok,

Yes Judo would have (probably) won if he didn't pause.

But he paused.

It's the same as if someone suicides while their opponent is flying off the top.

Well it sucks, but they SD'd, and that's their fault, just as if they paused, that would be their fault.

Either way, it should result in the loss of the match in this case.

So, when I pause the game after the opponent flies off the top of the screen during his last stock, the game tells me I lost. Therefore, it's the same as jumping off and SD'ing. I have learned something new today.

 

[Ghostbone]

So, when I pause the game after the opponent flies off the top of the screen during his last stock, the game tells me I lost. Therefore, it's the same as jumping off and SD'ing. I have learned something new today.

Obviously the game doesn't tell you that you lost.

But it's a similar situation, as if we didn't treat pausing as a stock loss or loss of a match, the game would quickly degenerate no?

Oh and SMJ, I like that rule, as long as you can change your bans between games.

 

[Kewkky]

Obviously the game doesn't tell you that you lost.

But it's a similar situation, as if we didn't treat pausing as a stock loss or loss of a match, the game would quickly degenerate no?

It would if it wasn't obvious who the winner was. If your opponent is turning into a star, or is hit by a smash at 300% or something, there's absolutely positively no way he's gonna survive. You can't even SD fast enough unless the opponent flies off the top of the screen if you hit them with a killing smash at the lowest % possible for guaranteed death. At that point, where it's obvious the opponent is dead, it doesn't matter what you do, victory is yours. if you standing absolutely still after that point leads to you winning, then even if you pause the game, as long as it was guaranteed 100%, you should've taken the win.

Obviously pausing the game in the middle of a combo or a match or something without alerting anyone is very unprofessional behavior, unsportsmanlike, and should be punished accordingly, since you're directly disrupting the flow of a match. But if there's not even a flow to disrupt, like say, your opponent is dying and unable to do anything about it after a smash and it's a bona-fide guaranteed kill, there shouldn't be punishment.

/endless_reiteration

 

[Doc King]

what do u mean evidence. Just talk to people. Ask why they want him banned? Cuz they cant beat mk players. And its usually not the M2ks or Antis lol. Its local people who switch from their main and beat them with a pocket mk.

The fact that ppl have to use a pocket mk to beat mks proves that mk should be banned.

Maybe me and everyone else have a different definition of taking the easy way out. If a character can beat the entire cast(55-45 and above) except for a few characters he goes even with, I think he should remain legal as long as there is still character verity in the tournament results. I think its fine if we have five MKs in the top nine as long as there are also five other characters there.

No, MK beats everyone. Another reason why he should be banned.

The poll just asked players if they wanted MK banned, not if it was the right thing to do.

It was a good thing to do, since the whole mk banning thing has been a major issue to the majority.

Because if you actually took the time to get better, you would know that MK can't get away with half of the stuff players let him get away with in tournament. He is the best character in the game but he is beatable. He is not broken because no player can just pick him up and start winning tournaments. You don't have inconsistency in tournaments because of top players losing to random players who main MK.

Well I've heard that Earth at Genesis 2 lost to a crappy mk. Also Ally had to switch to mk to beat M2K.

Exactly! Most mk's can't even kill that well on stage. They have staled their moves right? Yall complain about them spamming downsmash right? Well, that move gets extremely weakened and is hard be killed by if u have Di.

Most mk's get kills by offstage gimps and stuff. U have to learn how to read when they are going to attack. gosh I wish recent vids were up. Nairo is the master of gliding. He didn't get me with one up B at Clash 1 and he did like 25. U can see it coming. Think...If I were him what would I do in this situation.

U keep telling me to prove your points but u haven't disproved mine. Show me 4 players on youtube whose games have advanced and u see them doing different things as the months go by. U wont find many.

MK don't have to kill. He can kill time instead.

What notable players have you beaten and who can you name that has gotten to the top because they picked up MK?

I can answer the bolded. Ally, M2K, Anti, Atomsk, Tyrant, Tearbear, etc.

Jebus for most annoying poster on SWF.

Well 2nd, next to Ripple.

1. Jebus
2. Mekos

The rest aren't annoying.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Tearbear hasn't used MK this season and his placings haven't changed. Ally was a top level Snake before he picked up MK. M2K was a top level player with his DDD. Atomsk was also a top level DDD. Anti and Tyrant worked hard to get to where they are with their character just like every other top player.

Also, Tyrant has won MK banned tournaments so he is not just a random without MK. Anti has also beaten other players using characters besides MK (he beat Mikehaze using Diddy)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm really not liking the obvious pokes at people. I advise people to knock it off.

As for this, eh, I'm not interested in talking about it since I already said what I wanted to a long time ago multiple times. I want him banned, think 75% means a lot for our community and should be considered.

While it is up to the BBRRC, regions are already taking the initiative, so let's see where this goes.

~

I heard pausing before, just make sure it is off, and tell people to not turn it on like people did at MLG.

 

[Orion*]

Tearbear hasn't used MK this season and his placings haven't changed. Ally was a top level Snake before he picked up MK. M2K was a top level player with his DDD. Atomsk was also a top level DDD. Anti and Tyrant worked hard to get to where they are with their character just like every other top player.

Also, Tyrant has won MK banned tournaments so he is not just a random without MK. Anti has also beaten other players using characters besides MK (he beat Mikehaze using Diddy)

This

10this

I really think people should read this more

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=123676

I don't really care if MK is banned or not to be honest. But if you ban him, do it for the right reasons and with the right data.

 

[popsofctown]

It would if it wasn't obvious who the winner was. If your opponent is turning into a star, or is hit by a smash at 300% or something, there's absolutely positively no way he's gonna survive. You can't even SD fast enough unless the opponent flies off the top of the screen if you hit them with a killing smash at the lowest % possible for guaranteed death. At that point, where it's obvious the opponent is dead, it doesn't matter what you do, victory is yours. if you standing absolutely still after that point leads to you winning, then even if you pause the game, as long as it was guaranteed 100%, you should've taken the win.

Obviously pausing the game in the middle of a combo or a match or something without alerting anyone is very unprofessional behavior, unsportsmanlike, and should be punished accordingly, since you're directly disrupting the flow of a match. But if there's not even a flow to disrupt, like say, your opponent is dying and unable to do anything about it after a smash and it's a bona-fide guaranteed kill, there shouldn't be punishment.

/endless_reiteration

I'm fine with the rule "If you hit a player who has one stock with an upsmash, and that player is at 300% or more, and your opponent is not playing Snake (grenades), and you are not playing Snake, and the stage you are playing on has no hazards, and neither of you are playing Peach, and neither of you are playing Diddy (barrels), and no waddle dees are in play, you may pause the game as many times as you want, for any reason."

That would allow pausing only in cases where it really, really could not change the outcome of the match.

What you're proposing isn't nearly as discrete though. It's people making a judgment call on what it takes to "definitely" kill someone. Snake uptilts a Meta Knight at 160% and pauses, the judge is all like "oh yeah bro you can't DI that", the MK saying "he totally staled it enough he had 4 uptilts in the queue", the Snake is saying "lies and even then it doesn't stale enough", "you wouldn't know you only ever play with MKs that don't buffer the UpAir right", rahrahrahrahrah.

Whenever possible, you design rulesets so that they don't have rules that require subjective assessments. Either the game automatically tallies what the rule impacts for you (like LGL), or you make the judgment call so easy that even in borderline cases the call is clear (whether a basketball went through a hoop or passed by it).

Subjective rules only occur out of absolute necessity. Figure skaters have them because without it, they can't compete at all. Basketball has them because without them, unregulated contact would turn the game into an outright brawl.

Allowing people to pause at the end of matches to save minute amounts of time or to zoom in on their opponent's character is not even remotely a necessity, so it's a bad idea to introduce a subjective rule.

 

[JTsm]

Why is pausing such an issue?

 

[WindMajor]

Pausing can be used to interfere with the match stupidly, like the other player pausing to mess up someone's recovery, mess up a tech or attack, or to see where the player goes in a tech chase.

So we have a rule to discourage pausing mid-match.

 

[Kewkky]

I'm fine with the rule "If you hit a player who has one stock with an upsmash, and that player is at 300% or more, and your opponent is not playing Snake (grenades), and you are not playing Snake, and the stage you are playing on has no hazards, and neither of you are playing Peach, and neither of you are playing Diddy (barrels), and no waddle dees are in play, you may pause the game as many times as you want, for any reason."

That would allow pausing only in cases where it really, really could not change the outcome of the match.

What you're proposing isn't nearly as discrete though. It's people making a judgment call on what it takes to "definitely" kill someone. Snake uptilts a Meta Knight at 160% and pauses, the judge is all like "oh yeah bro you can't DI that", the MK saying "he totally staled it enough he had 4 uptilts in the queue", the Snake is saying "lies and even then it doesn't stale enough", "you wouldn't know you only ever play with MKs that don't buffer the UpAir right", rahrahrahrahrah.

Whenever possible, you design rulesets so that they don't have rules that require subjective assessments. Either the game automatically tallies what the rule impacts for you (like LGL), or you make the judgment call so easy that even in borderline cases the call is clear (whether a basketball went through a hoop or passed by it).

Subjective rules only occur out of absolute necessity. Figure skaters have them because without it, they can't compete at all. Basketball has them because without them, unregulated contact would turn the game into an outright brawl.

Allowing people to pause at the end of matches to save minute amounts of time or to zoom in on their opponent's character is not even remotely a necessity, so it's a bad idea to introduce a subjective rule.

I'm not proposing anything! I'm just saying that what happened with Judo shouldnt've mattered.

 

[JTsm]

So pausing under ANY circumstances should be punished? I know the TO can't see every single match, but I don't think the melee community had problems with this. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Omni]

They don't.

The Brawl Community is still very young and, IMO, not as mature as the Melee Community.

 

[Deleted member]

Since there could have been some momentum going, there should be time allowed to build it up again.

So a new rule in addition to the current pausing rule: If the game is paused and both players are at their last stock, reset the game at one stock each.

 

[JTsm]

They don't.

The Brawl Community is still very young and, IMO, not as mature as the Melee Community.

I guess that just answered my own question... =/ Thanks.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Pause off IMO. So that we dont need to have stupid arbitrary rules that lead to bull****. Judo won, the game told us he won. :/ When he paused, he had already hit logic with the usmash so it didnt matter. Upb windbox has enough hitstun to make the usmash tipper combo btw so he couldnt whistle even if he wanted to. He could only do an aerial. (Hence the upair)

 

[Marc]

What did the TO rule on Judo vs Logic? I think that if there is a rule against pausing, you should make sure that it's off in the settings. If it's somehow on and you get situations like this, it really should be treated on a case by case basis.

 

[Kewkky]

I heard that the TO made them replay the entire match, and Judo lost. I find this incredibly unfair, considering Judo had connected the final hit for the guaranteed kill before he paused the game.

 

[Player-1]

maybe...you know...he shouldn't have paused the game?

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

maybe...you know...he shouldn't have paused the game?

He was probably excited about winning brah, but it's over now >_<

 

[CT Chia]

I heard that the TO made them replay the entire match, and Judo lost. I find this incredibly unfair, considering Judo had connected the final hit for the guaranteed kill before he paused the game.

Technically it didn't connect, he paused while he was charging I believe