The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Arcansi]

anyone with a decent projectile can stop walk off camping

A decent projectile that cannot be easily shielded.

Soo...Pit, Falco, Fox.

Bonus points if your walkoff camping on onett with Falco, Fox, or Pit.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

A decent projectile that cannot be easily shielded.

Soo...Pit, Falco, Fox.

Bonus points if your walkoff camping on onett with Falco, Fox, or Pit.

Diddy, ICs, Snake and Olimar too

 

[ぱみゅ]

lol ICs having a decent projectyle.
If anything, they can poke most shields unsafely enough to bait a punish in order to make them move from the walkoff and not recieve too much damage.

 

[Arcansi]

Ic's can easily be jumped over, Oli's dont even interact with shields and most chars can just nair if he wont approach, snake maybe, but if your near a walkoff won't just jumping and airdodging into shield work?

Diddys projectile is either peanuts which get beaten by everything or bananas which will just get hogged.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@ both posts, once they stop standing there, every action they do is punishable as they are no longer walkoff camping

 

[DMG]

Argh DMG stop acting like there's no difference between "the game is less fun" and "killing the community"

And how WOULD planking kill the game? By making it less fun, not by making G^W a top 2 character in the game. Hence my point: if you are ok with changing and molding the game to make it more enjoyable not strictly for "only removing what's broken", then what's wrong with getting MK out of the game?

 

[popsofctown]

BPC lives in Europe land where MK is at the top of A tier instead of S tier. So he probably sees DK's planking as more unfit for play ..

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with Jebus about walk-offs. I see no reason that they'd allow for broken camping tactics, and D3 is vastly overrated.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

*Haven't actually been reading this argument*

There is a reason stages with permanent walk-offs are banned, such as Bridge of Eldin, Mario Circuit, Mario Bros (POW block), Whatever the one in the top right corner is, etc. The stages we have legal may have temporary walk-offs, but they can always be avoided by being in X position, and eventually the walk-off disappears.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

...What is the reason, then?

And anyone who bans Mario Bros. for the walk-offs gets a slap in the face from me.

 

[Judo777]

...What is the reason, then?

And anyone who bans Mario Bros. for the walk-offs gets a slap in the face from me.

Dude only scrubs ban this stage. Have you played Magenta Crabs!!!!!!????

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

walk offs aren't broken at all. if you cant **** up an opponent who is walk off camping, you suck.

they are standing there waiting to throw you. you can easily force them to do a punishable move or grab whiff. if you have any projectile you can force them to move. because as soon as they start to move, they have compromised walk off camping. not to mention walk off camping is a double edged sword, you mess up and you could get thrown or cg'd or blown up off the side you were camping. and if it is really so hard for your specific character to deal with, second falco or pit. they can use their projectiles to set up frame traps for their cg's and you can punish them with that for being dumb and camping a walk off which straight up isn't that safe to begin with.

 

[Kuro~]

Legalize onett! lol.

 

[Arcansi]

So...about those pro-LGL arguments...

Do they not exist anymore, making anti-LGL provably correct?

ALSO: Why is our starter list still so ground-based?

 

[ぱみゅ]

So...about those pro-LGL arguments...

Do they not exist anymore, making anti-LGL provably correct?

Most pro-MKban arguments were proven wrong many times, and MK still got banned.

Also, BPC never said LGL was right, he just said people thinks it is a good rule.

ALSO: Why is our starter list still so ground-based?

Been wondering this as well

 

[DRDN]

Because people have it in their mind that if it doesn't favor the ground that its not showing true skill

Which I think is crap but my opinion

 

[DMG]

Well it's not my fault that Smashville is a more neutral stage than Delfino or Halberd.

If you are gonna distinguish between starter and CP, you don't really need a large starter list. 5 or 7 is ideal imo, 9 is fine but not as good, and anything beyond 9 is bad.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

FD- the most ground based stage
RC- the most aerial stage
Pks1- more ground based but aerial characters get some pros here too
Lylat- more aerial based but grounded characters get some pros here too
frigate orpheon- well it's frigate, the stage is so wonky it works out for both




















the ultimate stage list


































think about having only these stages then ask yourself























did i just get 'd?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

So...about those pro-LGL arguments...

Do they not exist anymore, making anti-LGL provably correct?

ALSO: Why is our starter list still so ground-based?

Most ground based characters don't beat character's on starters that they wouldn't already beat on any other stage. The same can't be said for aerial characters on aerial stages

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

your post makes no sense.

a ground based character that wins a MU against an aerial based character would always win on a starter and on ANY other stage..... except for aerial stages.

does this make no sense to other people too?

 

[Ripple]

ninja'd

10...

 

[DRDN]

So ground based beats air based on any stage.... and to keep things fair we make all the starters ground based....

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

very based

(namesearch sync zori jerm illmatic gnes razer trela smoom xyro fliphop killik tesh. guys continue the combo)

 

[Mike2]

very based

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If starter stages really favored grounded character's, you wouldn't have characters like Wario going even with characters like Diddy on those stages. If anything, the starters are the most balanced stages, the counter picks are primarily aerial based and most of the banned stages (walk offs) are primarily ground based.

@DRDN, no, If a grounded character has a great MU against aerial based character on neutral stage, the match up is usually only slightly worse on the opponent's best stage, but almost always still in their advantage.

 

[Arcansi]

If starter stages really favored grounded character's, you wouldn't have characters like Wario going even with characters like Diddy on those stages. If anything, the starters are the most balanced stages, the counter picks are primarily aerial based and most of the banned stages (walk offs) are primarily ground based.

Doesn't this just mean Wario beats Diddy by an amount the stage cannot completly sway?

If anything, that's all it means.

 

[Tesh]

Jebus, the sad thing about this conversation is that if you were anyone else I would argue with you. But you are Jebus and I know it would be pointless to confront you with logic.

Although for the record, no one actually agrees with you on that...

 

[DeLux]

I would go so far to say that the distinction of "air based" and "ground based" characters is also arbitrary, further emphasizing the arbitrary nature of a distinction between starters and counter-picks.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I would go so far to say that the distinction of "air based" and "ground based" characters is also arbitrary, further emphasizing the arbitrary nature of a distinction between starters and counter-picks.

I agree kind of with this. I honestly wouldn't know where to put DDD if I had to choose.

@Arcansi, Banned Stages (Walk Off Stages) favor ground based characters, Neutral Stages favor the better character , the current CP system favors aerial based characters.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

jebus that (edit: further above post, have yet to read the other stuff) is soooo wrong.....

perfect example. pit olimar is even on sv (the most common neutrals). Bf is slightly pit with his good platform camping but it doesn't matter enough in this MU to really matter (due to giving oli more landing options) so lets say it's even too. now, pit destroys olimar on rainbow cruise and brinstar. pit decently beats olimar on halberd and delphino that are air based most of the time but have the down time (and in halberd's case the ceiling helps oli kill). he also has the advantage on olimar at lylat and has solid advantages on frigate orpheon. olimar destroys pit on castle siege pretty well. olimar decently beats pit on pks1 and has solid advantages on YI:B. it is slightly oli's favor at FD just to do to the fact that while it is big enough to give pit breathing room, oli still wins slightly here do to the lack of being able to even have aerial combat unless you are far offstage. the advantage is more noticable than pit's at BF's for sure so it does count toward olimar.

based on the overall stage list, pit has the overall advantage against olimar (pit has 6 advantageous stages, olimar has 4, there are 2 that are neutral). however, with the importance of game 1 in brawl, the chances are that pit will not get to have the MU advantage he should because even though pit solidly beats olimar stagewise via winning/going even on the majority of the stages, in game one pit is given the shaft because pks1, CS, FD, and YI:B make up 4/7 starter stages. since olimar is going to strike lylat (unless he is ********), the only stage pit is advantaged on in the "neutrals," that leaves sv and bf for pit to go even with olimar as opposed to having the advantage he should, but since oli will get to strike those as well, we are left with pit most likely getting a disadvantageous stage game 1 unless he gets lucky and they go sv or bf.

now for example, make like delphino a starter instead of lets say CS. now the starter list is FD, Pks1, and YI:B for heavy ground favoritism. then you have Delphino and Lylat for the aerial characters. then you have sv and bf which are neutral. while olimar still has a little bit of an advantage on striking by having 3 favorable stages as opposed to only having 2, that forces the process to make them go sv or bf and have an even first round instead of oli just having to strike lylat, sv, and bf thus forcing pit to play on a stage he is disadvantaged on (either CS, Pks1, FD, or YI:B) by a good amount.

that was just one example that i thought of. i can think of more like this too albeit the effect on the MUs will obviously be different (i.e. diddy vs kirby, wario vs ICs, TL vs snake, diddy vs g&w [this MU is drastically different on RC, Brinstar, main part of delphino].....). it isn't fair that ground characters get to have so much majority on the starter list with all of these heavy ground based stages as opposed to making it 3 ground based, 2-3 air based, 1-2 in between.

edit:

@lux

literally what is arbitrary? if it means what i think it does than no, it is very obvious what the difference between air based and ground based characters are.

ground based characters are characters who's move set is directed towards controlling your opponents position on the ground of the stage itself and trying to keep them grounded to so that they can use their on ground advantages. these characters however tend to be weak in controlling aerial position and have more weaknesses when in the air or offstage a decent way from a ledge. a perfect example of this is snake, who is god of stage ground control. while his opponents are on the ground, he has a plethora of ways to control his opponents grounded spacing and position thus giving him the ground advantage nearly every time. between c4, broken tilts with ridiculous range, damage output, and kill power, his heavy weight, dacus, and grenades, he has more than enough to overwhelm any character on the ground. however when forced into the air or off stage, his control is gone and now he is the one at a severe disadvantage getting his position and spacing controlled.

an aerial character is a character who's strengths lie in being able to manipulate an opponent from the air and being able to control the opponents aerial spacing and positioning. they try to keep the opponent in the air via juggling and punishing landings with moves that force them back into the air where they can control space. when fighting against opponents offstage who are trying to recover, they are the masters of preventing that and getting the kill/gimp or at the very least racking up lots of damage. also, they tend to not have to worry about recovering to the stage due to either having excellent recovery moves, good second jumps, multiple jumps, or combinations of all 3. a perfect example of this would be wario, wario owns the air with an iron clap. in essence all of his specials bar neutral are help his recovery if he is off stage and they all contribute to racking damage and getting kills even just when juggling/reading landings. combine this with his ability to weave through the air with near no restraint in his movement as well as his good set of aerial moves, his air game is near unmatched. however when wario is forced to play more grounded, his grounded weaknesses become glaringly obvious. while he still has options on the ground, they are not nearly as amazing as when he is able to use his aerial combat. his slower ground game gets him out ranged, out spaced, out positioned, and grab released.

now of course their are a good number of characters who have advantages in both categories and can fair well on both kinds of stages, but they all have some weakness or lack in their air or ground game that is exploitable when on a stage that is more based one way or the other. a couple of good examples are DDD and lucario.
DDD has a very strong onstage grounded game. he is not that powerful when in the air above the stage. however ddd does have a good offstage game with his large recovery, multiple jumps, and bair thus allowing him to have solid offstage options even though most of the time he is ground based.
lucario on the other hand also has a decent ground game with his projectile and range. also in the air above the stage his floatiness, range, power/combo-ability (or whatever you wanna call it) and air movement give a solid above stage aerial presence, i may go so far as to say one of the best there is. however his offstage aerial game is trash. his recovery is garbs, his second jump isn't spectacular, and overall he is much more susceptible to getting controlled, damaged, killed, and gimped when he is offstage.
hell another character with advantages in multiple categories would be g&w. he has great aerial game, great offstage game, and decent onstage game. in the air g&w has plenty of ways to **** on your day with his bair and nair and fair, not to mention how great his juggling game is with that uair forcing them to stay in the air longer. his offstage game is great too due to having a great recovery as well as good killing/gimping tools. then you have his onstage grounded game. this is where he is weaker for many reasons, but his pros tend to make up for a lot of them in many match ups. he is all around slow on the ground. his moves have bad startup times, and his grab range is rather lackluster. his dtilt is okay and his jab is nice but overall his ground game isn't super amazing. he is also a lightweight and thus easier to kill than many chars in brawl (this is alleviated a good amount though due to bucket brake). however, while slow, most of his grounded moves have ridiculous kill power, good damage, and make good set ups. his grab range may suck, but his dthrow sets up a dangerous tech chasing game that is nothing short of amazing.






whew that was a lot of writing. anyone else get my points yet?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Lets say there was full stage striking, how different do you think that MU would be? for the most part, the match up seems pretty even on neutral stages and only starts favoring Pit when you add cps. This MU would almost certainly be in Olimar's favor if they didn't ban some of the best stages for ground based characters (walk off stages)

 

[DeLux]

You just admitted in your post that a "good number of characters" fit into both categories. That should immediately jump out and tell you that your criteria for weighing character archetypes is flawed.

Wario's Aerial Control is different than Toon Link's aerial control. ICs are horrible in the air, but their main damage method comes from juggling characters with Uair and forcing them back in Uair zoning because of the fear of the grab. But you told me juggling was an aerial based feature.

If we take what you say for granted, then a fair system would have to include an equal number of "ground based" stages and an equal number of "aerial based" stages. For one, that would kill the striking system because you can't have an even number of stages in a competitive striking system. On a universal level, you can't honestly tell me that "ground based" stages will affect all matchups a certain way, the same way. Nor can you say an "aerial based" stage will affect all matchups a certain way, the same way.

Since the archetypes of a stage can't be determined unbiasedly on a system level without an arbitrary distinction on how one feels a stage will influence a matchup and how one feels characters alone function on a stage, it would follow that any distinction between starters and counterpicks is also biased and arbitrary.

Of the 13 legal stages, you can't pick one and say "this is the most neutral stage for all matchups." The most neutral stage would be stage 0 in a nominal stage striking notation system, where stage 0 is the 7th most preferred stage for both players assuming competitive striking takes place.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Then why don't you do a full stage strike?

 

[DeLux]

Because I'm in the minority party of the URC by default on everything lol

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

@jebus
norfair, ptad, japes, ggs, and distant planet are all staring at you really hard

now back to a player who's opinions can actually make sense

@lux

first off lux i edited a couple things in about some in between chars. check it out if you want

second off, stop using words like archetypes and arbitrary. im not dumb by any means but i don't jack my brain off to weird words that could be said much more simply as opposed to trying sound impressive and losing people. seriously like as soon as you said archetypes both times above i kinda got lost and skipped ahead so the point of your post may not be giving me the impression you intend because im way too lazy to go look these words up when you could just type like, normal.

also i didn't say juggling is solely aerial based, but you can't deny that juggling is used much more by aerial characters and more aerially inclined in between chars than it is by grounded characters.

also what you said about having an equal number or ground and air stages in the starter list isn't right. i said you would need stages that favor ground, stages that favor air, AND stages that have a tendency to benefit both types in a lot of MUs. perfect example stage is battlefield. the next one would probably be sv. these 2 stages can help out both types due to the platform layout for bf and the fact that sv's platform moves. so if you wanted to be technical a starter list that caters to all the types would be like

pks1, fd, YI:B for ground.
lylat and delphino would be there for the air characters.
then you would have battle field and smashville, stages which cater to both types.

also you are right, each stage both ground and air based have different effects on MUs between these types of characters. however, they are all gonna have plenty of similarities as well. you can't sit there and tell me that ICs vs peach on FD, pks1, and smashville isn't going to be drastically differant than if they played on rainbow cruise or brinstar. you can't tell me that snake vs g&w on fd and YI:B isn't gonna be drastically differant than playing on delphino and RC.



also yes the distinction between starters and CPs is very biased. it's people making a ruleset, it's always gonna be biased. doesn't mean we can't change how biased it is to make it as fair as possible.

and of course you can't say one stage is truly neutral for all MUs, but there are obviously some that are more overall balanced stages for most (keyword is most) MUs (ie almost everyone goes to bf and sv game 1 for a reason). however there are some stages that are more suited to even out specific MUs but for the most part they are on the starter list already (example, pit vs wario is much more balanced on YI:B than it is on any of the other neutrals because it bring the MU much closer to even do the layout of the stage).





now explain what you're over complicated wording means before my laptop dies so i can make sure i responded to what i believed your post to have meant

 

[DeLux]

Why would you make a system that might select a few of the "most neutral stages" for "most matchups" when there's an easily viable solution that would find the most neutral stage for all matchups?

So far, the answer to your question is that rulesets are biased and I don't want to look past your diction to discern meaning. All of your points in support are nearly identical to what I used to support my resolution, but mine doesn't have the arbitrary bias.

Again: You can't tell me for a certainty how each specific stage will affect a matchup on a universal level. By claiming certain stages as "starters", you're creating a distinction that really can't be made until the specific matchup to be played on game one is selected. At which point, you leave it up to the players to decide what is the most neutral stage.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

well **** if we are gonna start talking full stage list striking it has my vote. but since URC TOs ***** and whine about how it would make tournies take to long when it really, really wouldn't, we'll probably never see it happen. so the least we can do is make a more balanced subset since they seem to be ****ing it up kinda bad atm (the lack of several stages makes it kinda obv).

also, that last sentence has no meaning to me. it kinda just ended, we have the same points.... weird

edit:

i already said i would prefer full stage striking. but the URC isn't gonna do that. also it's pretty easy to generalize a few things about how a specific stage will effect a MU on a universal level. sure you can't always get the %100 full blown 80 page essay on how each stage of a certain type of stage will effect the outcome, but you can discern enough between them to see which one is more balanced than other in a bunch of MUs overall.

for example, MK and RC against diddy, snake, ICs, marth, olimar are all gonna have a few MU specific things each that make it harder for them. but they all share the fact that he can camp you on the first part, shark your *** on the second part, gimp your *** on the 3rd part, and then continue to camp the 4th part. pretty easy generalization that has a huge effect on a bunch of differant MUs

 

[DeLux]

I hear what you're saying, but I think they would be more inclined to change to a more logically consistent system than they would a system that assumes certain facts and generalities and attempts to apply them as a best fit scenario to as many matchups as possible.

TLDR: They'd do full stage striking before making a starter list that a mixture of what you call "air based" and "ground based" stages.

I don't think they'd do either though from preliminary discussions.

 

[DMG]

The thing about stage striking of any size is that you're not guaranteed to find the "optimal" stage for a MU. Depending on what you even define optimal as: closest to even, or closest to representing what the MU really is (even, slight advantage, hard advantage). If your definition is whatever will represent the MU accurately, then yes expand the list. However, you will have less even and smaller advantage MU's going around with that system. You're more likely to find stages that are 1 and 2's than 0/1 if you use a larger list/full list.

 

[Ussi]

the most even stage in the MU could be the stage people want to play on JUST BECAUSE they are comfortable (BF and SV in particular, BF is prob the most "neutral" stage in the game just because just about everyone is used too/prefers fighting there)