The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[SaveMeJebus]

They have A LOT of MK players, just few successful ones. That could still be considered a problem by some people.

Sounds just like any other another best character

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

when you think about it, it's too bad metaknight was the character they broke so much. i mean metaknight is freaking cool as hell as a character so i understand that a lot of new players who don't even know what a tier list is would want to use him. why couldn't they have made like.... idk.... why couldn't they just make jigglypuff or DDD or some other character that looks ******** and is ******** super broken and make MK balanced? if it was one of those chars who was uber broken they would have been banned in 2009 but no they had to make one of the, if not THE coolest character in brawl too broken to keep the game fun for many people.







pointless rant aside, chompy just came out of retirement due to the MK ban. YEYAH BOY! YOU'LL BE BACK ON THE PR IN NO TIME, ESPECIALLY WITHOUT THE BAT!









*poors final drink before likely passing out*

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

MK destroyed the game depth lol!

There are 2, maybe 3 characters expected to get a real rise out of MK being banned. Destroys game depth my ***...

And banning those stages would only make it very slightly easier to beat mk, which isn't gonna help that much.

...No, it'd turn most of MK's "evenish" matchups from "oh god I have to win games 1 and 3" to "I might actually stand a chance game 2". That's not "slightly easier", that's "hey, this character is no longer even remotely broken".

I personally think that with RC and Brinstar banned, Olimar, Fox, Falco, and possibly Marth all have a chance of going even or better with MK. Yes, dat regional bias, but seriously?
You guys don't have a marth as good as Mr R, both in general and in terms of skill in the MK matchup.
You guys don't have an Olimar who is as good at the MK matchup as Brood or Nietono.
You guys probably don't have a fox as good as Yui.
The top Falco in the USA is basically out of action at the moment because he's got too much else; nobody else even comes close to DEHF's previous level with Falco beyond perhaps LSL, who from what I hear is ****ing amazing.
It's thoroughly possible that MK has even, maybe even bad matchups with those two stages banned. The USA metagame just hasn't provided it yet. Meanwhile, Japan and Europe haven't had MKs winning tournaments, let alone 5 places of top 8 at a national, in quite a while.

This is not a relevant conclusion because there is no reason for such conditions to be met.

So, imagine if for some reason, a glitch was discovered that broke Falco to hell and back on SV. Say, some sort of platform cancel in combination with his sideB that makes runaway not just good, but absolutely broken beyond belief. What now... We have a combination of a character and a stage which is clearly broken. Do we ban the character or the stage?

Hell, that's not even a fair comparison. You know why? Nobody is considering banning SV anyways. Meanwhile both RC and Brinstar are almost universally banned outside of North America (with a few exceptions, most of which are negligible), and even quite often within it, and a lot of people cite the stage itself as a problem, not MK.

There are basically four opinions in this regards:

1. MK breaks RC and Brinstar, therefore he as a character is broken and should be banned.
2. MK is broken on RC and Brinstar, therefore the stages are broken and should be banned because characters offer more depth than stages and because the international community has already done this
3. RC and Brinstar are broken/anticompetitive in and of themselves; neither stage is fit for competitive play with or without Metaknight
4. and of course, the most fringe group: MK does not break RC and Brinstar, therefore neither really should be banned

The fourth can be ignored because it's stupid. The third is what Japan and some considerable parts of Europe think (paging Gheb to the thread). The second is the opinion I personally hold, and apparently something akin to what Alex Strife and the others behind APEX believe. The first... Eh, I'm sorry, I can't agree with it. Characters, as a rule, do offer more depth than stages. Simple fact.

TL;DR: there are damn well good reasons for those conditions to be met; plus, most places worth looking at outside of the USA already have (Mexico, most of Europe, Japan...).

 

[Conviction]

What the hell Jebus, I've seen you ask to change the timer plenty of times so what's the difference with my questions?

Answer them.

 

[Judo777]

There are 2, maybe 3 characters expected to get a real rise out of MK being banned. Destroys game depth my ***...



...No, it'd turn most of MK's "evenish" matchups from "oh god I have to win games 1 and 3" to "I might actually stand a chance game 2". That's not "slightly easier", that's "hey, this character is no longer even remotely broken".

I personally think that with RC and Brinstar banned, Olimar, Fox, Falco, and possibly Marth all have a chance of going even or better with MK. Yes, dat regional bias, but seriously?
You guys don't have a marth as good as Mr R, both in general and in terms of skill in the MK matchup.
You guys don't have an Olimar who is as good at the MK matchup as Brood or Nietono.
You guys probably don't have a fox as good as Yui.
The top Falco in the USA is basically out of action at the moment because he's got too much else; nobody else even comes close to DEHF's previous level with Falco beyond perhaps LSL, who from what I hear is ****ing amazing.
It's thoroughly possible that MK has even, maybe even bad matchups with those two stages banned. The USA metagame just hasn't provided it yet. Meanwhile, Japan and Europe haven't had MKs winning tournaments, let alone 5 places of top 8 at a national, in quite a while.



So, imagine if for some reason, a glitch was discovered that broke Falco to hell and back on SV. Say, some sort of platform cancel in combination with his sideB that makes runaway not just good, but absolutely broken beyond belief. What now... We have a combination of a character and a stage which is clearly broken. Do we ban the character or the stage?

Hell, that's not even a fair comparison. You know why? Nobody is considering banning SV anyways. Meanwhile both RC and Brinstar are almost universally banned outside of North America (with a few exceptions, most of which are negligible), and even quite often within it, and a lot of people cite the stage itself as a problem, not MK.

There are basically four opinions in this regards:

1. MK breaks RC and Brinstar, therefore he as a character is broken and should be banned.
2. MK is broken on RC and Brinstar, therefore the stages are broken and should be banned because characters offer more depth than stages and because the international community has already done this
3. RC and Brinstar are broken/anticompetitive in and of themselves; neither stage is fit for competitive play with or without Metaknight
4. and of course, the most fringe group: MK does not break RC and Brinstar, therefore neither really should be banned

The fourth can be ignored because it's stupid. The third is what Japan and some considerable parts of Europe think (paging Gheb to the thread). The second is the opinion I personally hold, and apparently something akin to what Alex Strife and the others behind APEX believe. The first... Eh, I'm sorry, I can't agree with it. Characters, as a rule, do offer more depth than stages. Simple fact.

TL;DR: there are damn well good reasons for those conditions to be met; plus, most places worth looking at outside of the USA already have (Mexico, most of Europe, Japan...).

Lol at people acting like they know what the Metagame will be like with MK gone. Yea because we can base the depth not having MK will bring 2 months before he is banned ok.......

Japan doesn't have an MK "problem" because they don't have near as frequent large scale tournaments as we do. We have however seen the influence of MK over time by a significant amount.

 

[Tesh]

I think its pretty bold to make claims about which region of the world is more skilled before APEX. For all you know Mr. R will show up in the US with his fancy aggressive platform cancels and still get nadolooped and robbed just like US Marths.

 

[Arcansi]

Because ultimately we take into account who our stake holders are. If you aren't affected by the Unity Ruleset, you aren't a stake holder. We are people that have a finite amount of time. You can say what you want and I listen to your opinion just by reading it and responding to it, but why would I cater to you when in reality catering to you puts me at odds with a competing claim of people that actually attend my tournies or could attend my tournies?

Your ruleset caters to you. This is understandable.

It's not a matter of physically impossible. Either you are able to run or attend a tourney, or the Unity ruleset doesn't apply to you. It's a binary that you can't have both ways where you can't run or attend a tourney, but you have a stake in the ruleset. You have no stake in this at all by your own admission.

Physically impossible may have been a slight exaggeration, sorry. Basically, it costs me $200 or more to get to a tourney and I can't get to one more then once in six months, without coming into some serious money (being that I'm 16)

Whether you believe it or not is on you. It stops being my problem after me listening to you and letting you know you've been heard.

Ok.

You can absolutely find a flaw. People before you have found flaws. We've changed the rules to cover those flaws. You aren't some special victim case here.

How am I to find a flaw in an argument I don't know exists.

You missed my point here. I was commenting on the lack of discussion by the URC in the forums, which makes it impossible for me to find flaws in stuff, because I don't know it exists. (Like how the preliminary discussion said nothing was going to happen when I can find very few logical reasons for so in this thread.)

This is in no way fixable by the URC. Your inability to have power is focused in the things you claim are physically impossible.

My inability to have power is out of my hands. It is based on my luck, that I just happen to live here and there happens to be no competitive community here.

I can do nothing about it, unfortunately.

Also, how would I know I had power even if I did the one thing that I could, that being talk to someone in person (a long time from now.)

I wouldn't. Because I don't know what my area is representing at all, or why.

 

[Doc King]

Japan doesn't have a problem with MK. They must be doing something right


@Ibis, don't ask me why we have the ledge grab amount we have. That's like asking why we use a 8 min timer over any other timer

@C.J., Did you even watch the set? From what I heard, TKD only used Fox in one of the matches of that set. He recently beat Tyrant in one of Mike's tournaments

No Jebus. Japan isn't the potential of the mk metagame. The reason why he's banned here is because we have found a great and powerful potential for mk that no other place has. Like Mew2King doing all of that planking with mk.

 

[DeLux]

Physically impossible may have been a slight exaggeration, sorry. Basically, it costs me $200 or more to get to a tourney and I can't get to one more then once in six months, without coming into some serious money (being that I'm 16)

With that same money you would spend traveling to a tourney, you could spend it on getting a venue and hosting a tournament. Even if it's once every six months, you'd be doing a huge part towards working to a solution on things.

How am I to find a flaw in an argument I don't know exists.

You missed my point here. I was commenting on the lack of discussion by the URC in the forums, which makes it impossible for me to find flaws in stuff, because I don't know it exists. (Like how the preliminary discussion said nothing was going to happen when I can find very few logical reasons for so in this thread.)

The entire ruleset is viewable to the public: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12492158

How to fix the ruleset:
1. Go find flaws with it.
2a. Host tournament fixing flaw in ruleset
2b. If not 2a, Convince local TO to fix flaw in ruleset
2ci. If not 2b, Make a thread on why the flaw should be fixed.
2cii. Use thread to rally other TO's to your cause, getting them to change their ruleset
3. Get significant number of players to attend tournaments hosted by TOs with amended ruleset
4. You have now changed the ruleset for the better

If people won't host your rule or people won't attend your tournament, then your rule is probably detrimental to the community. It's nothing personal and may or may not mean you're wrong. It just means that the rule doesn't serve the community and is therefore bad in the eyes of the community.

My inability to have power is out of my hands. It is based on my luck, that I just happen to live here and there happens to be no competitive community here.

I live in the Midwest. At this time last year, my local scene was pretty dead. I had to make a choice. If I don't make my own luck and host my own tournaments and recruit people outside of my normal social network, I have to drive 3.5 to 4 hours for the next closest local tournament. I got a job specifically to do both. I can now host local tournies AND travel. All while at one point maintaining 2 jobs, an internship, going to KU, Smash Lab, URC, and a relationship.

If you really want to change things, stop arguing rules on the internet with "the community". Go make your own local smash community and play with them. You'd serve "the community" better by helping it grow. Go out and do something about it and actively work towards the solution instead of saying you aren't being heard. You absolutely can be your own voice, but I can confidently say without even knowing your situation that you are choosing not to exercise that power.

Also, how would I know I had power even if I did the one thing that I could, that being talk to someone in person (a long time from now.)

I wouldn't. Because I don't know what my area is representing at all, or why.

I don't know what you are trying to say here.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

There are 2, maybe 3 characters expected to get a real rise out of MK being banned. Destroys game depth my ***...



...No, it'd turn most of MK's "evenish" matchups from "oh god I have to win games 1 and 3" to "I might actually stand a chance game 2". That's not "slightly easier", that's "hey, this character is no longer even remotely broken".

I personally think that with RC and Brinstar banned, Olimar, Fox, Falco, and possibly Marth all have a chance of going even or better with MK. Yes, dat regional bias, but seriously?
You guys don't have a marth as good as Mr R, both in general and in terms of skill in the MK matchup.
You guys don't have an Olimar who is as good at the MK matchup as Brood or Nietono.
You guys probably don't have a fox as good as Yui.
The top Falco in the USA is basically out of action at the moment because he's got too much else; nobody else even comes close to DEHF's previous level with Falco beyond perhaps LSL, who from what I hear is ****ing amazing.
It's thoroughly possible that MK has even, maybe even bad matchups with those two stages banned. The USA metagame just hasn't provided it yet. Meanwhile, Japan and Europe haven't had MKs winning tournaments, let alone 5 places of top 8 at a national, in quite a while.

alright lets start this response off right.

we've seen the metaknights from other countries both europe and japan. and we were not impressed. the other countries MKs straight up are nowhere near our MKs level.
you're gonna sit there and tell me that Mr.R. is straight guarenteed better than mikehaze? well the only way we can even hope to confirm this is apex seeing as how (to my knowledge) Mr.R. has yet to come to an american tournament.
i could easily argue that tkd is as good/better than yui. there is no probably about it.
the new japanese falco is SLS, not LSL. this has nothing to with how good other countries falco's are this is just for referance. but i do agree the dude is straight up amazing.

also you forgot the true most important fear character in the game. i concede to japan having the best solo Ice Climbers. (oh and i just watched vinnie vs ally, random fact for those of you don't know *cough dmbrandon cough*. it's pronounced Ku-b because Ku is japanese for 9)

also gluttony could very well be the best wario but we'll have to see on that one too. malcom is kinda ridiculous sometimes


edit:



@ arcansi

dude your 16. if your area doesn't have a brawl scene these are your 2 options.

try to start one yourself by finding a venue and promoting your tournament (although just to be safe about attendence i would also host a CoD or Mortal Kombat or MvC3 tournament at the same time or in succession). it could turn out to be something great. your region could have amazing untapped potential players. it could lead to lots of friends, good times, and good memories.

it really could

or you could start saving your money that you would put towards all of this as a TO, get a job, start making money, and if you still really wanna be hella into video games, pick up UMvC3 when it comes out because those games are ultra competitive and their online capabilities are actually amazing unlike brawl wifi which unless you both have really really good connections, sucks a fat ****.

 

[Tesh]

^Wrong, its been proven many times that star KOing a metaknight in Japan is immensely more satisfying.

You can practically feel his suffering.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Orion move to Europe (at best a top 20 US MK) and suddenly he was among the best players (as in top 10 overall)?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

alright lets start this response off right.

we've seen the metaknights from other countries both europe and japan. and we were not impressed. the other countries MKs straight up are nowhere near our MKs level.

The top Japanese MKs go almost even with players like Brood, Nietono, and 9B–the first of which happens to generally place the worst of the three in Japan and who wrecked our best MKs in '10–and they're "straight up nowhere near our MKs level"?! This lacks any credibility, I'm sorry.

you're gonna sit there and tell me that Mr.R. is straight guarenteed better than mikehaze? well the only way we can even hope to confirm this is apex seeing as how (to my knowledge) Mr.R. has yet to come to an american tournament.

Didn't I preface that with IMO? In any case, he's got a more established tournament presence. MikeHaze hasn't won of placed particularly highly in anything worth mentioning of late; Ramin has been consistently beating pretty much everyone in the EU, plus he scared Ally out of using MK against him. If that doesn't say something, I don't know what does.

i could easily argue that tkd is as good/better than yui. there is no probably about it.

Meh, I could be misinformed.

the new japanese falco is SLS, not LSL. this has nothing to with how good other countries falco's are this is just for referance. but i do agree the dude is straight up amazing.

Oh? Drat. I guess the guy who made the Reversal Meteor Minus combo vids is not at the same time one of the best players in the world. Shame.

also you forgot the true most important fear character in the game. i concede to japan having the best solo Ice Climbers. (oh and i just watched vinnie vs ally, random fact for those of you don't know *cough dmbrandon cough*. it's pronounced Ku-b because Ku is japanese for 9)

Yeah, but I left that out because I'm pretty sure that nobody in their right minds thinks that MK-ICs is even, even with everything but SV/BF/FD banned.

also gluttony could very well be the best wario but we'll have to see on that one too. malcom is kinda ridiculous sometimes

I mean no offense to Malcom, but... Malcom who? USA has no Warios worth mentioning at a high level. None.

But the overarching point in my post still stands. We have, like, 4-5 characters who might go even with MK. Of those, America is only sure to have the best main of 1 of them (Diddy), and at best only has three (Diddy, Fox, Falco). Meanwhile it's reasonable to believe that it has the best and most of the top 10 MKs in the world. So yeah, no wonder you guys have a slightly different perspective.

@AZ: he was 4th on the NJ PR (9th-best MK in the USA in terms of results) when he moved, now he's, for the most part, been placing top 3 at most major tournaments.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I mean no offense to Malcom, but... Malcom who? USA has no Warios worth mentioning at a high level. None.

It really is impossible to make these types of statements, either way, when the interaction between US/EU/*** is roughly once a year. I guess we will find out more at Apex with how the different countries competition stacks up with one another.

@AZ: he was 4th on the NJ PR (9th-best MK in the USA in terms of results) when he moved, now he's, for the most part, been placing top 3 at most major tournaments.

I don't really know when he moved exactly (sometime summer/late 2010?) but I do know he has basically been ranked around where I have been on the SWF rankings. I know at the end of 2010 he was ranked 91st on the SWF rankings, and this was the last time data is available for (this is based on the fact that the Jan ranking showed he dropped 31 positions, and that is the last time data is available). I don't believe Orion was ever ranked in the top 30, which is where he would typically need to be in order to be in the top 10 of MKs. Usually there are 8-10 MK's in the top 20 alone, and Orion was never a top 20 US player.

Just curious, where is your data coming from?

 

[ElDominio]

My predictions for Apex
M2K sandbags hard and gets ***** on purpose, antiban gains the "M2K lost in Apex!!!" argument, MK is then unbanned.

 

[AlphaZealot]

M2K lost like...a week or two ago where Vinnie took 1st. Ally is the best player right now in North America in terms of consistency. Regardless too, Apex is just one tournament, whereas the MK ban is based on the results of hundreds of tournaments over multiple years. Will an MK fail to win a national here and there? Probably. Will MK win the vast majority though, and has he, for years? Yes.

There are still lots of random variables that effect things. Heck you can look at KTAR5 and 6, where M2K forfeited Winners and Losers (KTAR5) and forfeited Losers (KTAR6). Sometimes people are feeling down, sad, distracted, nervous, sick, etc and that effects how they play even when they do play (in other words don't forfeit).

 

[Zankoku]

(oh and i just watched vinnie vs ally, random fact for those of you don't know *cough dmbrandon cough*. it's pronounced Ku-b because Ku is japanese for 9)

Random fact for those of you who don't know.

The Japanese 9 is pronounced "kyuu", not "ku".

9B's name is just a play on "Nine Tails", or "kyuu bi".

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

bpc how the hell have you not heard of malcom? he is a top level wario in the md/va region of the US. he is currently the best wario in America. although like i said gluttony is probably better

edit:

Ku=kyu

ku=/=Ku

was lazy with typing and already knew about the nine-tails play. so specific with your spelling sheesh.


on the other hand, 9b is like a hollowfied kyuubi.


in fact

9b

Dude is goin in on your soul, no mercy

 

[Zankoku]

Sorry that I'm not as lenient when someone tries to play off "cool" as pronounced the same way that "cute" is.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

it's the net. get over yourself

 

[SaveMeJebus]

My predictions for Apex
M2K sandbags hard and gets ***** on purpose, antiban gains the "M2K lost in Apex!!!" argument, MK is then unbanned.

There would be no reason to sandbag seeing as how one tournament isn't going to change anyone's mind. I also think we are going to see all the MK solo mains go all out. Even then, I don't think that M2K or any MK is going to take first.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What if there was, say, one MK in top 5, and 0 in top 3? That wouldn't turn any heads? That wouldn't leave people thinking, "Hmm, maybe the ruleset is the problem" or "Hmm, maybe the USA isn't quite as amazing as it thought it was"?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

m2k will take first as he is quitting brawl afterword so he's def going out with a bang

ally will take second also using lots of MK since it's MKs big goodbye

if gluttony comes him, gnes, razer, nietono, or adhd will take 3rd. the following spots will be taken up by these players. then the top japanese (brood masashi 9b) and non-gluttony europeans (mr.r leon etc) will mix in with the rest of our top MKs, one pikachu, and 2 random lucarios.

everything else, who cares?

 

[Zankoku]

"Going out with a bang" doesn't involve just wanting it. At the only tournament M2K has attended since the announcement of the MK ban, he placed second. Maybe he's secretly practicing in another dimension or something, but if that's the extent of M2K's activity pre-Apex then I don't think he'll be guaranteed the gold.

 

[infiniteV115]

Maharba's gonna get 1st at Apex.
Just watch.

 

[DMG]

M2K would not sandbag at a national like that. Please don't ever suggest that. Ever. That's an insult.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

m2k will take first as he is quitting brawl afterword so he's def going out with a bang

ally will take second also using lots of MK since it's MKs big goodbye

if gluttony comes him, gnes, razer, nietono, or adhd will take 3rd. the following spots will be taken up by these players. then the top japanese (brood masashi 9b) and non-gluttony europeans (mr.r leon etc) will mix in with the rest of our top MKs, one pikachu, and 2 random lucarios.

everything else, who cares?

Hence the hypothetical. Derp. I'm saying, if the internationals make a great showing, or hell, even if someone like Dabuz, ADHD or Vinnie finally pushes that last step/brings it back to where they were before and places top 3 at a huge tournament like this without MK, and we do get no MKs in top 3, one in top 5, and maybe 2 or 3 in top 8... What will this imply? Will it be overlooked as an "outlier" because it's "just one tournament"? Would it be meaningless? Again, I'm not asking how likely I'm is, I'm just wondering what it would mean in the hypothetical situation.

 

[Flayl]

M2K would not sandbag at a national like that. Please don't ever suggest that. Ever. That's an insult.

Unless it's pools

against a girl

 

[Raziek]

I don't see it changing anything given that regardless of what people have to say about the ruleset and such, I highly doubt that a significant portion of the 75% of people who voted pro-ban will suddenly change sides just because MK doesn't win a national.

 

[WindMajor]

Even then, MK not winning one national after having won like 5 big events this year wouldn't mean much. Or at least that's the reverse of what anti-bans have been telling the pro-ban.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't see it changing anything given that regardless of what people have to say about the ruleset and such, I highly doubt that a significant portion of the 75% of people who voted pro-ban will suddenly change sides just because MK doesn't win a national.

Even then, MK not winning one national after having won like 5 big events this year wouldn't mean much. Or at least that's the reverse of what anti-bans have been telling the pro-ban.

Um... You mean, the best MKs in the USA getting routed at possibly the largest tournament in the history of smash by internationals? Excuse me, but this is actually kind of a unique opportunity in that regards. We've got major international attendance–the best players from all over the world are going to show up. Call me crazy, but if Japan kicks our *****, or Mr R shows us that Marth is criminally underrated by the USA, or the best MKs in the USA fail to place top 5, what does that say about our so-called "hyperdeveloped" metagame? What does that say about all the "MK is broken" claims? "It's a statistical anomaly"?

Twinkie, when you reference those 5 big events, what you're missing is who is involved. For all intents and purposes, the top players there were fairly similar–Vinnie, Dabuz, ADHD, M2K, Ally, Nairo, and Anti were pretty consistently the best players present. APEX 2012? We're gonna have JP, EU, WC, TX... You get the point. There's a huge difference between "Vinnie takes a tournament off of other EC pros for the first time in 6 tournaments" and "top EC pros get bodied by Japan". APEX is simply going to be the most significant tournament in that regard–we've got almost everyone except like Glutonny coming.

(Again, still based on the hypothetical)

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

that's right, texas has so many top players it gets lumped with with japan and europe and all of west coast.

i dig it bpc

 

[Jimmyfosho]

people really just need to wait and see what happens on that godly weekend.

 

[WindMajor]

Um... You mean, the best MKs in the USA getting routed at possibly the largest tournament in the history of smash by internationals? Excuse me, but this is actually kind of a unique opportunity in that regards. We've got major international attendance–the best players from all over the world are going to show up. Call me crazy, but if Japan kicks our *****, or Mr R shows us that Marth is criminally underrated by the USA, or the best MKs in the USA fail to place top 5, what does that say about our so-called "hyperdeveloped" metagame? What does that say about all the "MK is broken" claims? "It's a statistical anomaly"?

Twinkie, when you reference those 5 big events, what you're missing is who is involved. For all intents and purposes, the top players there were fairly similar–Vinnie, Dabuz, ADHD, M2K, Ally, Nairo, and Anti were pretty consistently the best players present. APEX 2012? We're gonna have JP, EU, WC, TX... You get the point. There's a huge difference between "Vinnie takes a tournament off of other EC pros for the first time in 6 tournaments" and "top EC pros get bodied by Japan". APEX is simply going to be the most significant tournament in that regard–we've got almost everyone except like Glutonny coming.

(Again, still based on the hypothetical)

No matter how epic or signficiant Apex is, it's still one tournament. 1 tournament = too small. That's what I've learned from the anti-bans.

"Just wait until this tournament and we'll see what's up!"
*Pound V walks in, MK takes 1-3rd place*

"But that's JUST Pound V, what about tournaments before that? You pro-bans need more proof!"



Even if it's a huge international, it won't matter. It won't matter how significant it is, I'll still pull that card and discredit everything just because it was pulled on me like a thousand times. Plus, 1 tournament will not outshadow five other events.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

an MK has never taken first place at Apex

 

[Zankoku]

If all Meta Knights are completely blocked off from the top placements almost exclusively by international players there might be cause for concern, but anything else can definitely simply be discounted as a one-time thing.

 

[Cassio]

Those MU's would be fairly rare.

Just curious, where is your data coming from?

Well considering no one seriously uses those numbers to rank a players skill, its based at least on the fact that he was the second best MK in NJ and third in NY/NJ. However if you really believe he was at best top 20, it would be as easy as naming 10-20 MKs that are better than him.

I highly doubt that a significant portion of the 75% of people who voted pro-ban will suddenly change sides just because MK doesn't win a national.

Im curious. Do people find the voluntary MK ban poll to be a worthwhile statistic in spite of its understood uselessness in the profession? If your answer is yes is it because:

1)you dont think its a voluntary poll
2)you believe voluntary polls are useful and dont agree with its criticism
3)you believe voluntary polls are still more or less accurate within a range (5% or 10%ish) either way even with criticisms
4)its not accurate, likely overestimates one direction, but can give a useful idea for how people feel even with its criticisms.
5)other

Im interested for any and all answers, especially those who use and cite the statistic.

 

[WindMajor]

I don't understand your beef with the poll.

 

[Spelt]

I don't think he understands his beef with the poll.

 

[Cassio]

My personal concern is that its information is inaccurate at best and possibly unusable.

However this time Im more interested in others opinions on the polls worth and why.