The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Ghostbone]

anything lower than 35 is pretty dumb because I can rack up to like 25+ in 4 minute matches without even attempting to run the timer. to time you out with 35 ledge grabs I can't be on the ledge that long or I will easily go over, and outside of smashville/gay stages scrooging safely takes more edge grabs (which is banned anyway).

That's the problem with LGLs in general.

There is no ideal number, the 'perfect' number will interfere with 'regular' gameplay (without planking), while also allowing MK to stall for a large amount of time if he wishes >.>

 

[!!!RM!!!]

If only it were that simple...

MK's planking is an extremely powerful positional advantage. Not stalling. You CAN beat it, but the risks far outweigh the rewards, which you have very low odds of succeeding anyway.

If MK's planking is stalling, so is IC Blizzard in place vs. Ganon.

Which leads me to my point, MK's planking is not perfect and unstoppable. People need only look at the frame data and experiment a bit to overcome it.

Meta Knight's Uair has 10 frames of cooldown and comes out on frame 2, so there is a minimum of 11 frames between Uair-->Uair. 11 frames is about the amount of cooldown on MK's air dodge, so it's a pretty hard window to work with. Thing is, its only 11 frames if they are buffered Uairs with frame-perfect jumps timed in between them. This is the real world, so things will never be truly perfect. So we have to estimate the additional time a player will put between their Uairs to jump and then input another Uair with the C-stick. A conservative estimate is about 6-8 frames to play it safe. That boosts the average time between Uairs to 17-19 frames, which is enough to work with for many characters.

Now, to address MK's position offstage. He doesn't have infinite jumps, remember that. So obviously he has to grab the ledge and refresh his jumps to continue planking. Generally, the longer MK stays offstage the less options he has due to having less jumps. Once MK uses his 3trd jump he has to start thinking about grabbing the ledge soon or else he loses his advantage and is in a bad position. As he uses jumps, the likelihood of him grabbing the ledge after Uairing becomes higher and higher until he is forced to grab the ledge and refresh. This allows for an amount of reading to come into play and opens up avenues to punish the 25+ frames it takes for MK to grab a ledge after Uair-->Double Jump.

Hope this information was useful to you in some way regardless. ^___^

 

[xDD-Master]

You guys are definitely seeing it WAY to 1-dimensional.
Just saying.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This thread has devolved from "Hey, maybe we can convince the TOs here to consider swapping picto for Japes or something similar" to "Super-liberal circle jerk". Congrats, guys. ****ing good job. Hope you're real proud of yourselves.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

um.... i still want japes and norfair legal tho. that didn't change mang. it's just they stopped responding on it

 

[!!!RM!!!]

BPC...

>__> I'm wondering why all the ^.

 

[John12346]

Uh RM, just for the record, if MK's planking was as beatable as you say it is, we wouldn't be hearing horror stories from multiple tournament results threads and Youtube saying otherwise...

 

[Yikarur]

Meta Knight's Uair has 10 frames of cooldown and comes out on frame 2, so there is a minimum of 11 frames between Uair-->Uair. 11 frames is about the amount of cooldown on MK's air dodge, so it's a pretty hard window to work with. Thing is, its only 11 frames if they are buffered Uairs with frame-perfect jumps timed in between them. This is the real world, so things will never be truly perfect. So we have to estimate the additional time a player will put between their Uairs to jump and then input another Uair with the C-stick. A conservative estimate is about 6-8 frames to play it safe. That boosts the average time between Uairs to 17-19 frames, which is enough to work with for many characters.

your execution skills must really suck. You can buffer "Jump+Uair".

 

[sunshade]

Never being able to reach someone and never being able to beat their up air based zoning on the ledge are two different things.

You can reach metaknight when planking, you can even get in range of hitting him, however assuming the frame data and theorycraft are correct, you wont ever hurt him. Reaching someone, and being able to do **** about something to a noticeable enough degree to win are entirely different.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

there's no height any character can reach that i can't shoot at

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Man, I haven't seen intellectual debate for the past like...6 pages (15ppp)

 

[Reizilla]

That's because you're not part of the master race (40ppp)

 

[Chuee]

Im part of the master race.
Yessssssssssss

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

RM, you ask why the salt?

Man, I haven't seen intellectual debate for the past like...6 pages (15ppp)

This. This is why. I am very salty about this. I'm salty that in one of the biggest chances to actively improve one of the most widely used rulesets, one that will be used all over the country, all we've succeeded in doing is alienating anyone but the usual crowd of die-hard fanatics who will debate whatever to death. And by that I include literally every TO except ESAM.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

honestly there isn't really too much more to talk about. they know that most people want japes legal, some want norfair, and pipes and ptad while people want them legal i guess they just won't budge on them for some reason. there will always be a lgl even though the actual limits may vary, and they aren't gonna ban infinites because they are too hard to regulate. i mean hell, just getting japes and norfair would be a huge accomplishment, the other stuff is probably just not gonna be taken into account ever.

inb4somethingderogetory

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^This.

There isn't anything more to say about Japes and the like, so we've moved on to other, more interesting topics.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do people want me to lock this?

Based on the spam and off topic posts, seems like people want it.

Get back on topic.

 

[Juushichi]

There just needs to be a change/update for us to complain/debate about.

Tbh, there's kinda a lull period throughout this entire board. The MU thing's kinda cooled down and we can only talk about the same top tiers for so long (though it looks like we're back to talking about how Marth is or isn't overrated again) so something big kinda has to happen.

There should be more talk after some big tourneys though n

 

[ErikG]

...most people want japes legal, some want norfair, and pipes and ptad while people want them legal...

The percentage of people who want those stages is probably a lot less than you think. Just because the more vocal people are on board for all these stages doesn't mean most of the community is on board as well.

Careful with your choice of words.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

The people that don't agree will always be louder. Even if something had the same amount of people for and against something, the people against will be much stronger vocally becuase, well, they want something to change as opposed to the people that are content.

 

[Timic83]

"Players are not allowed to use any game altering hacks, such as no-tripping or model hacks. If someone is caught setting up a system they brought with such hacks enabled can face punishment at the TO's discretion."

how are model hacks game altering?

 

[Life]

"Players are not allowed to use any game altering hacks, such as no-tripping or model hacks. If someone is caught setting up a system they brought with such hacks enabled can face punishment at the TO's discretion."

how are model hacks game altering?

They tend to screw up hitboxes and the like sometimes. IDR quite why this is.

 

[John12346]

NO

NONONO

That is completely incorrect. Vertex editing/model hacks are mere stretching of the polygons on a character, and they do NOT change gameplay. On each character, there are multiple sections called "bones" on various parts of the character's body. These "bones" are where the hitboxes are generated during attacks, and where your character's hurtboxes are attached to. Vertex hacking does not mandate the movement of these bones and therefore does not change gameplay at all.

What the issue is, however, is that some people tend to rename, move, or change the sizes of these bones in their vertex hacks, in order to have their finished product become a more accurate representation of the character they're modeling. In other words, they want it to look more accurate than a version without moved bones. This will cause gameplay changes, obviously, because you'll be missing/have misplaced vital hitbox/hurtbox locations, and that's obviously no good.

When you're downloading vertex hacks, I implore you to check the description of the hack before adding it to your game. If they say "does not cause gameplay change" or "safe to use on Wifi," then you can go ahead and download it, and add it to your game. If anything to the contrary is said, or no indication of whether or not gameplay is changed is given, do not take the risk and leave it out of your game.

For those of you who don't believe me, download this Zero Suit Samus hack I requested for the specific purpose of determining whether or not vertex hacks alter gameplay. The request was for someone to take Zero Suit Samus, and stretch her polygons in really random directions and make an overall mess of the character. You'll notice immediately that she doesn't cause any gameplay changes.

And for those of you who are too lazy to bother, this is what it looks like ingame, and it does not change gameplay at all, despite it's obviously ****ed up appearance.

So yes, go gung ho with the vertex hacking. Just don't use anything that's distracting!

 

[Blacknight99923]

Wow.

How old are you, seriously? >_>

real talk

Best ruleset is the one that's best for the community.

Sponsors and happy players = good for the community
Planking = uninteresting for sponsors = unhappy players = bad for the community

The difference between infinites and planking is easy:
planking - defensive
infinites - offensive

People sure dislike extreme defensive tactics, while they support an offensive playstyle.
Defensive tactics are boring to watch, while offensive aren't.

You can do something to not get infinited.
You can't do anything to not get planked.

(Don't say: Get the lead. You could get the lead, and he will plank you anyway until 7:30, then he starts fighting... even worse if you fight against a pit )

no your wrong for the reasons every objective player has stated in this thread I agree with you for the most part I just want to see what kind of reaction i'll get from invisible font

Yikarur, you have shown time and time again that you don't understand the concept of comparison. Don't try and make it seem like the players pointing out double standards are in the wrong just because of your twisted view.

your totally right no seriously LOL orion ***** your arguments earlier. Your convinced you have to be right without factoring the actual consequences of implementing such rules.

So does MK with planking >.>
He has to hit you to get the lead in the first place.

a genius we should have listened to you guys a long time ago or not

I should have embraced the ways of the liberal stage list person, I have seen the light and will fight along your side
just kidding, stay free guys, well most of you anyway. A lot of you suggest implementing ideas that truthfully subtract competitive depth, and most knowledgeable players agree on that. However your convinced you have to be right, objectively you may be but pragmatically the implementation of these kinds of rules like "mk still has to hit you first" will DESTROY the game. Wether or not you like it you STILL have to take care of your audience , overly degenerate tactics and degeret stages should be banned for these reasons, but no clearly you know more than the rest of us and are right.

 

[WindMajor]

I think model hacks apply more to stages, in which the creator might have to fiddle with the collision data in order to make it match with the new model they put in.

Or they could mean game altering as in being so distracting that it clearly affects gameplay for those who are trying to play with the hacks on.

 

[Ghostbone]

Players have the right to turn off all hacks if they want anyway.
So it's not really an issue....

 

[Isatis]

Well also, I've come across some that can desynch replays and the like, which makes it harder for someone who might want to record a replay.

Game-altering is also not really specific though. What if I wanted to use Phantom Wings' Colored Shields code?

 

[Orion*]

RM, you ask why the salt?


This. This is why. I am very salty about this. I'm salty that in one of the biggest chances to actively improve one of the most widely used rulesets, one that will be used all over the country, all we've succeeded in doing is alienating anyone but the usual crowd of die-hard fanatics who will debate whatever to death. And by that I include literally every TO except ESAM.

Gotta be honest. If 90% of the posters weren't absolute ****s and at least showed some respect in what they disagree with instead of assuming their "opinion" is fact then maybe people other than ESAM would actually both posting.
It's not like anyone has any control over what they do anyway, this is pretty much just a suggestion box. So to everyone making an *** out of themselves your comments probably get taken with a grain of salt LOL

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Gotta be honest. If 90% of the posters weren't absolute ****s and at least showed some respect in what they disagree with instead of assuming their "opinion" is fact then maybe people other than ESAM would actually both posting.
It's not like anyone has any control over what they do anyway, this is pretty much just a suggestion box. So to everyone making an *** out of themselves your comments probably get taken with a grain of salt LOL

rofl lmao at grain of salt

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So... TKD has made a new ruleset. In response to this one. "No annoying stages" is supposedly in the literal ruleset text. Lulz will be had dissecting it when I get home.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I just read it.... And it was REALLY BAD.
I mean, I didn't liked his "standard" one as it was flawled theori-wise, but this one is just terrible.... by any means, just NO.
And all of his clarifications made it even worse....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Can someone link me to it?

 

[ぱみゅ]

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=110485

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Can you like, quote it here or something? He has me blocked on AiB and I can't read it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

http://smashclubs.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/tkds-rule-set-ver-2/

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

TKD’s Rule Set. Flexible Version.
Posted on April 28, 2011 by José Miguel

At the time of writing this, I recommend the following set of rules. It includes a lot of options, so an edited version of it should be used.

Refined Tag Rule Set

General Settings:

Survival: 3 stocks.
Time limit: 8~10 minutes. <- TO’s discretion
Team Attack ON.
Items at “NONE” and “OFF”.

Additional rules:

Gentleman’s rule: Both sides may agree to add or remove rules during a match or a set.
The TO should set his or her own rules of conduct (regarding attitudes, interferences, set-ups, the venue, etc.).
The TO can declare 4 stock, 10 minute time limit survival single matches, with a ledge grab limit of 40, to be played instead of sets to save time (for example, during pools).
Disputes additional to the ones mentioned may be solved with the help of a Tournament Organizer/Referee; or randomizing methods such as a coin flip or dice toss.

Timeout and tiebreaker rules:

Ledge grab limit: 30
If a match clocks out, the winner is declared by stocks, then percentage. Any player that broke the ledge grab limit surrenders all stocks when determining a winner in this situation. In Team Battle, the sum of stocks and percentage for both characters on each Team is taken into account. If these are tied, a tiebreaker is to be played out.
If both sides are eliminated simultaneously, a tiebreaker is to be played out.
A tiebreaker consists of either playing out the Sudden Death automatically triggered by the game, or a one stock battle with 3-minute time limit and a ledge grab limit of 10 on the same stage, as the same characters.

Banned actions:

These are to be penalized as the Organizer sees fit. The general consensus is for most of these to be penalized by immediately surrendering a stock.

Pausing the match.
Stalling via glitches, infinites past 300%, non-damaging loops, or unreachable positioning (unintentional scratched disc-dependent glitches like transformation freezing should become exceptions).
Traveling under the stage from one side to the other more than once in a row without stepping on it: platforms don’t count.
Extending Meta Knight’s Interdimensional cape.
Causing Meta Knight’s Drill Rush glitch in Halberd.
Grabbing the ledge more than once during Sudden Death.

Optional rule: Floor Settings
The TO may use the following rules instead of the ones in blue font:

Time limit: 10 minutes
If a match clocks out, the character -or team that includes the character-, that accumulated the most ground time, wins.

The TO may also decide to allow the players to agree to either tag or floor settings by themselves each set, with the use of a coin flip in case of disputes.

Set procedure:

Round One selections.

Selection of controller ports (1P, 2P, etc.). A dispute is solved via coin flip, dice toss; or if agreed upon, a game of rock-paper-scissors. The winner selects controller port first (only the first of the four in Team Battle). Open, undisputed selection of controller ports is the means to skip a dispute.
Round One character selection. A dispute is solved via blind pick (either by handing the opponent a folded piece of paper containing one’s character choice, or secretly notifying a referee of it; which is revealed after the opponent selects character). Open, undisputed character selection is the means to skip a dispute.
Round One stage selection. A starter stage to play the first round on is to be selected by elimination method (each player strikes a stage, until one remains for the match to be played on).
Each player is allowed to inflict Handicap upon his/her self. The match is to begin.

Round Two selections.

The side that lost the previous round is allowed to reset controller port selection and select controller port first (only the first of the four in Team Battle).
The side that won the previous round is allowed to ban up to two counter-pick stages from being selected during the current round.
The side that lost the previous round declares the next counter-pick stage to be played on.
The side that won the previous round selects character.
The side that lost the previous round selects character.
Scouting rule: The side that won the previous round is allowed to reset character selection (repeat steps 4~5) once.
Each player is allowed to inflict Handicap upon his/her self. The match is to begin.

Round 3~5 selections.

The same steps are followed for Round 3~5 selections as they are for Round Two selections.
If any side has accumulated the required number of wins to be declared victorious, the set ends.

Starter stages:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokémon Stadium (Melee) / Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi’s Island (Brawl)

Counter-pick stages:

Battlefield
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pirate Ship <- optional if running 100% floor settings. otherwise banned
Pokémon Stadium (Melee)
Pokémon Stadium 2 <- optional
Smashville
Yoshi’s Island (Brawl)

SSBB communities and TOs are free to use this rule set, or any modified version of it.
.
===================================
end of rule set
===================================
Clarifications and reasoning.
There’s no need to read this, but here are the conclusions of highest value that resulted from discussions during the making of this.

Final Destination is a starter stage because it’s the less intrusive of the stage list along with Battlefield. “It’s not the stage’s fault that some characters are very good in it”, AC said.
The starter stage list was originally Battlefield, Smashville, and Yoshi’s Island (Brawl). The dryness and inflexibility of a three starter list (besides the fact that two of them almost or entirely lack platforms) makes some players uneasy, so instead of exchanging Yoshi’s Island (Brawl) for Final Destination, this last one and Pokémon Stadium (Melee) were added as starter stages.
Lylat Cruise isn’t considered an appropriate starter stage; because not only does it limit and improves some types of movement (platform canceling, stage tilting), but it also affects character recoveries with its ledge properties (which Pokémon Stadium (Melee) also does), and many players can’t see well while playing on it because of its darkness and background.
The stage list originally included Rainbow Cruise. This stage was concluded to define the outcome of a match by itself too frequently, for example: Kirby’s/MK’s uthrow onto a high platform, falling and losing a stock because of a short air-jump or a sudden lack of one, surviving a KO move on the boat because of crashing into a flying structure.
Brinstar was never in the list, but was then compared to Rainbow Cruise, with the argument that a good portion of characters are actually good there. It even has less random factors. The fact that Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise are so ambiguous, and that there’s a a popular judgement that Brinstar is worse of a stage from what I’ve seen and heard at tournaments (almost only MK players not banning it, player’s complaints about it), made me conclude for it to stay banned.
Having two stage bans available makes the counter-pick process more flexible than one ban plus dave’s stupid rule. Also, there’s no dave’s stupid rule because of the two available stage bans. The rule is quite often waived with the gentleman’s clause anyway, and you can simply ban the stage your opponent won on if you deem it appropriate.
Stage bans only affect the current round, and they’re reset each round. Since there are two of them, if they affected the entire set, there would be a total of 4 stages banned when each side has won a round, and the stage list is too small for that. Also, stage banning is less limiting and requires less planning this way: There was a decision that what affects the set should be more your game play skills than the way you can take advantage of the rules.
Pokémon Stadium 2 is to be tested.
Pokémon Stadium 2′s main characteristics are its large size (it’s slightly wider than Final Destination), and its transformations. Because of these, there’s a possibility that it’s the easiest stage to clock out matches in.
It’s speculated to be a good stage for Wario because of the positional advantage some transformations give him, and good for Falco because of its size.
Like Pokémon Stadium (Melee)’s, Pokémon Stadium 2′s transformations usually make it risky to approach, and easy to avoid confrontation. Additionally, these include physics changes that can confuse a player that’s not aware of them (but not if he is). The physics changes were the only aspect of this stage that had it banned before, with the argument that no other allowed stage presents them.
Marth has interesting glitches in this stage: His player must be aware that Dancing Blade’s third (or fourth?) strike shoots him off the stage if he executes it during the electrical phase. This can be avoided every time by any player that knows of the glitch, by means that don’t require much concentration (avoiding to Dancing Blade off from the conveyor belts).
Marth is able to reach maximum stage height and stay there with rising Dancing Blade (he always counts as rising immediately after a rising Dancing Blade) in the wind phase. He also takes some time to land back on the stage after doing this. This gives him a powerful ability to make time.
The “stalling is banned” rule may be interpreted as covering this (because of covering that which is called “unreachable positioning” as a form of stalling). I don’t see banning this to be necessary, but it’s up to the TO.
Handicap is available between character selection and beginning a match. It’s been said that it’s part of the game, not a broken aspect of it at all (you give away whatever initial damage you select times three), and more of a preference than anything else. It will also add a small dimension to the game that may add depth and possibilities to some character match-ups.
There’s something called the “scouting rule”. Right after character selection in round two and beyond, the player that won the previous round (is being counter-picked) may reset character selection (so he selects character again, and his opponent selects character after him, again).
This rule was instated because of the magnitude of the advantages between some characters, to balance the characters that lack counters, with those that have them.
It allows players that play characters such as Wolf and Donkey Kong to “scout” if their opponent would counter-pick them too sharply for their taste or not, so attempting to stay as such characters in an opposing counterpick is entirely possible.
Infinites are allowed in this rule set with the argument that they’re simply a part of the game and of match-ups that shouldn’t be changed arbitrarily, so players susceptible to them are aided by this rule.
There’s an 8 minute time limit. This is a standard in Europe and the US, so I went with that. I thought of using a 9 minute time limit, and a 10 minute time limit was proposed; but I say that if we want to discourage time outs, we can simply go for a 10 minute timer with the Ground Time rule enforced (instead of a ledge grab and under-stage travel limit), which is viable as well.
I call win by percentage upon time out the “Tag Setting”, and the win by accumulated ground time upon time out the “Floor Setting”. Both are effective, and both affect character match-ups differently. One favors characters that can camp and avoid confrontation, the other favors characters that can chain-grab.
I went with a tag setting because it’s more popular, and this rule set is inspired on the “Unity Ruleset Version 1.0″, with the intent of being a perfected version of it.
The Ledge Grab Limit is indiscriminately the same for all characters, as some are better than others at ledge camping. The under-stage travel limit is what limits the best ones (mainly Pit and Meta Knight).
Meta Knight’s Drill Rush glitch in Halberd turns the stage into a second Brinstar, in that it makes the positional advantage that comes with the ability to approach from below the stage permanently available, which is the reason it’s banned.

So…that’s it. I hope you love and support this.




there you go BPC. i just copy pasted that. this ruleset is great if you main fox looooooooool. other than that...... no no even if you main fox this is a terrible ruleset imo. no hate TKD, but i just don't dig your opinion is all.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...Wow, that's totally different from what I saw on AiB. TBH it's not that awful.

Traveling under the stage from one side to the other more than once in a row without stepping on it: platforms don’t count.

^this is pretty bad... I mean, come on, who can't beat MK's scrooging on SV? Where else is it even remotely a problem? ICs have to place themselves at a moderate risk, falco has to avoid losing the lead... I don't see the issue.

Time limit: 10 minutes
If a match clocks out, the character -or team that includes the character-, that accumulated the most ground time, wins.

I've gone over why GTLs are ********. Like, incredibly ********. Pants on head, **** in shirt, "HURR DURR" ********. But it's not mandated... hopefully nobody is stupid enough to, you know, actually use it.

No RC or Brinstar... Yeah, okay, that's not cool. Especially with two stage bans, that get reset each round... Could've easily snuck both of those in. And there's no real reasoning for it, either. I mean, he bans the stages for being "intrusive"?


That said... It's not quite as bad as I expected. Two stage bans that change after every round is actually a really cool idea, one that seems fairly sensible... But damn, **** ground time limits and give us back RC and Brinstar.

 

[WindMajor]

Final Destination is a starter stage because it’s the less intrusive of the stage list along with Battlefield. “It’s not the stage’s fault that some characters are very good in it”, AC said.



Lylat Cruise isn’t considered an appropriate starter stage; because not only does it limit and improves some types of movement (platform canceling, stage tilting), but it also affects character recoveries with its ledge properties (which Pokémon Stadium (Melee) also does), and many players can’t see well while playing on it because of its darkness and background.

This could use some explaining.

 

[Life]

So TKD can put out a ruleset but we can't? :/

Also, what Twinkie said. "It's not the stage's fault that some characters are very good in it"? It's not Brinstar's fault that MK is very good on it. Same with RC. Double standards much?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

He's probably banning them for being "intrusive".