The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[xDD-Master]

So does MK with planking >.>
He has to hit you to get the lead in the first place.

No he doesnt.

Just can start planking from the beginning and start fighting last 10 seconds.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why would fighting in the last 10 seconds be any different to fighting in the first 10?

 

[sunshade]

The Risk/reward of different options changes in different scenarios if the time is narrowing.

In the last five seconds it is a safe move to jump 5 times then drill rush straight up as all punishment chances are removed due to the match ending, however doing that in the first 5 seconds is laughable.

 

[xDD-Master]

Why would fighting in the last 10 seconds be any different to fighting in the first 10?

You can't be serious with that -.-


E: See above. In the first 10 seconds you have 7.50 to change the outcame.

In the end you don't.

 

[sunshade]

Not to say that XDD-Master is right (his understanding of this discussion is very limited from what I have seen), but I felt the need to correct that one statement.

 

[xDD-Master]

Not to say that XDD-Master is right (his understanding of this discussion is very limited from what I have seen), but I felt the need to correct that one statement.

tbh I really don't know.

All I know is that MKs planking is stupid & broken and should be banned, and that arguing Pro-MKs-Planking is stupid too, and even more if you compare it to DDDs Infinites

 

[sunshade]

I argue for the removal of ledge grab limits because the advantage metaknight gains from ledge play is no different than any other advantage a character gains. His planking being broken is justification for a ban of him or the creation of a metaknight specific (and I cannot stress specific enough) ledge grab limit.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The Risk/reward of different options changes in different scenarios if the time is narrowing.

In the last five seconds it is a safe move to jump 5 times then drill rush straight up as all punishment chances are removed due to the match ending, however doing that in the first 5 seconds is laughable.

erm... what?

How is doing 5 jumps and then drill rushing up considered "fighting"? o_O

I argue for the removal of ledge grab limits because the advantage metaknight gains from ledge play is no different than any other advantage a character gains. His planking being broken is justification for a ban of him or the creation of a metaknight specific (and I cannot stress specific enough) ledge grab limit.

^Yep, this ^

 

[xDD-Master]

Well OK.

Probably the universal LGR should be removed.

But MK should have one, or, what you already said, MK should be banned completely.


I kinda agree with that.


What I would change actually, is to lower the LGL for MK from 35 to 20.

35 was some kind of "compromise" because of the fact that it was a universal LGR. Not to high that MK can plank effectively, but not so low that other characters get hurt by it.

 

[WindMajor]

The LGL at 35 is waaaay too low for MK. I wouldn't lower it any more.

 

[Ghostbone]

35 is a lot >.>

 

[WindMajor]

35 edge grabs means that you PPlanked and remained invincible for just under 30 seconds as Metaknight.

 

[xDD-Master]

The LGL at 35 is waaaay too low for MK. I wouldn't lower it any more.

WTF?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRo7rJ--JB4

Staco had 45 Ledge-Grabs.
And he wasn't even planking good at all. Start watching from 6:00 and how often he grabbed the edge in a row, he couldve stalled the timer soooo much better.

20 is enough for MK to not have too many Ledge-Grabs in a normal Match without planking. Even with situational planking for 30 seconds, he won't reach 20 under normal conditions.


I will check another match of long match of staco where he played deffensive but without planking to see if he reachs 20.

 

[WindMajor]

So does MK with planking >.>
He has to hit you to get the lead in the first place.

WTF?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRo7rJ--JB4

Staco had 45 Ledge-Grabs.
And he wasn't even planking good at all. Start watching from 6:00 and how often he grabbed the edge in a row, he couldve stalled the timer soooo much better.

20 is enough for MK to not have too many Ledge-Grabs in a normal Match without planking. Even with situational planking for 30 seconds, he won't reach 20 under normal conditions.


I will check another match of long match of staco where he played deffensive but without planking to see if he reachs 20.

Well like I said, getting 35 ledge grabs by PPlanking means that you only wasted 30 seconds. PPlanking is the only thing that is seen as broken since you can remain invincible for a good enough amount of time so that other enemies can't hit you.

What Staco did was a combination of air camping and poor ledge camping, not PPlanking. If it isn't PPlanking, or anything remotely close to it, then it's just camping or playing defensive, but neither of those are banned or discouraged in Brawl (otherwise, Toon Link wouldn't be legal </3).

So if we're trying to limit a broken tactic, we can only go by PPlanking, and not by playing very defensively.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm of the opinion that non-perfect planking takes MK over the broken barrier as well, but whatever.

Twinkie, can you come to Australia so we can play on Mario Bros. together :3

 

[WindMajor]

Pay my flight and I'll go in an instant.

With that being said, I only fly first class.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

We have a major coming up that M2K is attending, is that enough incentive to buy your own ticket? :3

 

[xDD-Master]

Twinkie, but you're assuming the MK PPlanks 8 minutes right?
What about only 3-4 minutes of pplanking?

 

[WindMajor]

We have a major coming up that M2K is attending, is that enough incentive to buy your own ticket? :3

No.

And non-perfect planking may take MK over the broken barrier, but that's too hard to enforce with a single number, especially since MK has multiple planking techniques.

Twinkie, but you're assuming the MK PPlanks 8 minutes right?
What about only 3-4 minutes of pplanking?

I'm assuming that MK grabs the ledge 35 times using the PPlanking technique that DMG outlined in that one thread he made a long time ago (the Uair Uair ledge snap one).

If he were to do that from ledge grab 1 to ledge grab 35 (can be continuously or broken up, as long as all ledge grabs go to PPlanking), the amount of time that he would be invincible for would be 30 seconds.

If your MK were to do this action for 4 minutes, he would grab the edge, then that's 35 x 8, which would equal to 280 ledge grabs. Doing it for 8 entire minutes straight (if anyone could actually do this) would mean that you grabbed the ledge around 560 times.

No one ever gets anywhere close to that because they do imperfect planking, and their planking techniques are affected by numerous things (matchups, stage layouts, spacing, planking techniques, etc.) which is what brings the number down much, much lower.

A lot of factors go into finding the perfect MK's LGL, but I know that no such number can ever be reached taking into consideration all of the factors required to find the number, so I don't bother trying to find one. I advocate no LGLs.

 

[Ghostbone]

35 ledge grabs is still too much even if the planking will only last 30 seconds.

Imagine you're going really even against a MK, playing an extremely campy match, and in the last 30 seconds he gets a 2% lead and planks....

>.>
he probably has like 20 ledge grabs to spare at that point with a LGL of 35, with a lower LGL the MK won't risk planking at all because he might accidentally go over.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I plank even with a LGL, cause why not, lol.

 

[WindMajor]

35 ledge grabs is still too much even if the planking will only last 30 seconds.

Imagine you're going really even against a MK, playing an extremely campy match, and in the last 30 seconds he gets a 2% lead and planks....

>.>
he probably has like 20 ledge grabs to spare at that point with a LGL of 35, with a lower LGL the MK won't risk planking at all because he might accidentally go over.

For many 35 is too much because they try to associate MK's overall defensiveness with planking.

MK can stall an entire match for 8 minutes, but only get 30 edge grabs. That just means that he spent time doing a lot of other things like "being hard to hit" in numerous places in the stage (for example... gliding under the stage, floating around the ledge, flying too high to reach as demonstrated in xDD's video, etc.) instead of "being practically invincible by abusing invincibility frames and being almost impossible to hit" while on the ledge.

 

[John12346]

I can still bring up that match I had with Orion so long ago(no video, sry) where he timed me out with 16 ledgegrabs.

I understand Lucario is susceptible to being timed out, but come on, lulz.

 

[Orion*]

Yes but I dair camped / abused delfino that match

anything lower than 35 is pretty dumb because I can rack up to like 25+ in 4 minute matches without even attempting to run the timer. to time you out with 35 ledge grabs I can't be on the ledge that long or I will easily go over, and outside of smashville/gay stages scrooging safely takes more edge grabs (which is banned anyway).

If I'm not on the ledge you can fight me, even if i'm just dair camping you.

 

[John12346]

Uh, Orion, I think you just agreed with me... I was trying to make the point that MK's got some serious time-out prowess outside of planking.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

We should just make MK auto-lose when the game times out

 

[xDD-Master]

We should just make MK auto-lose when the game times out

Would solve many problems, had the same idea a year ago, a lot of agreed XD. We wouldn't even need to ban infinite cape anymore.

But has at least 1 big flaw: MK dittos.

How would they be decided?

 

[WindMajor]

We should just make MK auto-lose when the game times out

Alternatively, this sentence could've ended at auto-lose.

 

[xDD-Master]

Well MK auto-winning would make more sense since MK should always win anyway

 

[Chuee]

But has at least 1 big flaw: MK dittos.

How would they be decided?

both of them lose, and the person the winner would have to play gets a bye.

 

[xDD-Master]

both of them lose, and the person the winner would have to play gets a bye.

Match 1: Random Noob vs. M2K -> M2K jv4stocks.

Random Noobs goes aggro:

"ME PICKIN MK!!11!!!1!!"

"ME DOIN PERFECT STALLING "

Match 2: Timeout

Match 3: Timeout

"ME KICKIN M2K OUT OF TEH TOURNEY "

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Meta Knight beats perfect planking, nice try though.

 

[Chuee]

MK doesn't beat Super Uber Planking though.

 

[Reizilla]

Through rigorous guessing and other chance methods, I have found that the perfect number of ledge grabs for MKs LGL is 47.3.

You can thank me later.

 

[WindMajor]

Through rigorous guessing and other chance methods, I have found that the perfect number of ledge grabs for MKs LGL is 47.3.

You can thank me later.

This is wrong, and it's not because you can't grab the ledge 0.3 times.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

"7. The act of stalling is banned: stalling is intentionally making the game unplayable: Such as . . . . . . . ., and reaching a position that your opponent can never reach you." - The Unity Ruleset V. 1.0

If MK's planking is truly so perfect and invulnerable, then wouldn't putting yourself in such a position be considered stalling by this clause?

 

[Reizilla]

This is wrong, and it's not because you can't grab the ledge 0.3 times.

Proof?

RM, now be specific. Or are you just gonna say, "Well, he's been there for about 15 seconds now, so I guess now would be a good time to consider it stalling." It's not so easy to enforce with just that clause.

 

[John12346]

If only it were that simple...

MK's planking is an extremely powerful positional advantage. Not stalling. You CAN beat it, but the risks far outweigh the rewards, which you have very low odds of succeeding anyway.

If MK's planking is stalling, so is IC Blizzard in place vs. Ganon.

 

[WindMajor]

According to the rule, all they have to do is be in an unreachable position, it doesn't say for how long.

Well I'm gonna abuse this rule.

 

[Orion*]

Uh, Orion, I think you just agreed with me... I was trying to make the point that MK's got some serious time-out prowess outside of planking.

I agree partially although I do think at high level play just dair camping or pure stalling without the ledge isn't as great as you think it is. It has some merit but it won't win sets vs top players.