The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Sage JoWii]

Maaaan, I waited in line at the DMV to get a new license, had filled out the wrong form, re-stood in line, AND ate dinner; that match was still going.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The "brawl era" people have lost sight(or maybe never had it) of what a Neutral/Counter Pick stage is. FD was perfectly fine in melee and will always been fine in Brawl.

Bull****. In the "melee era" people got a completely false idea of what a Neutral is. Static is not neutral, and should not be treated as such.

-Ps2

I'm curious to the reasonings behind these?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285744

Don't start with me.


Also, yeah, the starter list makes me a little disappointed. Despite MLG providing evidence that 9 starters can and does work, despite my (and others') logical proof that more starters is almost always better, despite showing time and time again that FD is incredibly polar and does not belong in the starter list until there are 7+ starters, there are still 5 starters with FD. What the **** guys? Answer me this–are you really going to insist on clinging to really stupid and wrong tradition? (P.S. Xyro is stupid)

 

[Tesh]

Lol @ people trying to redefine what neutral means. If you think FD is a great stage for the first match to be played one, thats fine. But thats not the same as actually being neutral.

 

[Chuee]

Maaaan, I waited in line at the DMV to get a new license, had filled out the wrong form, re-stood in line, AND ate dinner; that match was still going.

I went into hibernation for 3 months and the match was still going.

 

[Sinister Slush]

looooooooooooool

I walked to my apartment, took a shower, made a sandwich, watched TITANIC, came back, and Ensis and Illmatic were STILL playing their $50 money match set.

Maaaan, I waited in line at the DMV to get a new license, had filled out the wrong form, re-stood in line, AND ate dinner; that match was still going.

I waited in line for my Badge for 3 hours and the match was STILL Going.

 

[666Philotanus666]

Ruleset is OK! I only "don't" like(there should/could be more) the stage list, but I absolutely agree with it. And about everybody complaining about FD as a starter, well, you haver 2 options:
1. STRIKE IT! DUH!
2. Tell them to make a 3 starter stage list, so you don't worry about it and about which other would replace it as a starter D:
Nothing else to say about it (the ruleset)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=88526

Static ≠ Neutral.
FD ≠ Neutral.
5 Starters is bad.

COME ON YOU GUYS.

 

[T-block]

For one, Marth doesn't even have an infinite on Ness/Lucas. He has a dash regrab.
As for D3 vs Mario & crew, from what I've heard it's only an infinite >100% which isn't even that big of a deal anyways.

Marth gets a small-step regrab. He doesn't have to dash grab, or there wouldn't be any debate at all.

Dedede needs to pummel against all his standing regrabs except DK, because if he uses d-throw five times in a row, it becomes too stale for the regrab to land. The pummel is needed to prevent this staling. Since Dedede pummels slow, this allows those characters to mash out as long as they aren't at like 120%+

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@666: Okay, I strike that. And then my opponent strikes Lylat and Yoshi's... And he's Falco. Leaving me to strike between falco's second-best and third-best stage in the matchup. DO YOU SEE HOW THIS MIGHT BE A PROBLEM?

 

[666Philotanus666]

@666: Okay, I strike that. And then my opponent strikes Lylat and Yoshi's... And he's Falco. Leaving me to strike between falco's second-best and third-best stage in the matchup. DO YOU SEE HOW THIS MIGHT BE A PROBLEM?

Yes, I already realised that, but think about this, he doesn't have his BEST stage as an option anymore AND you can still or should've thoght of striking both best and second best of his/other character's stages.
Oh, and by the way, I wan't to make this clear, I agree that FD is NOT a neutral stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

To make my point a little more clear... Imagine this stagelist: Brinstar, Frigate, Delfino, BF, SV. Now imagine that this is the norm, and that people are attacking Brinstar because it's the only thing they really can attack. Would you accept the answer "Just strike it" to this stagelist? Why not? After all, this is just exactly the opposite setup. Sure, you're going to end up on MK's 3rd or 4th best stage in almost every matchup (save for a rare few that enjoy Delfino or Frigate), but you can strike his best stage, and the other stage that's really amazing for him in the list! Would this be okay?

EDIT: Now I know why you guys moved the stages forum. That our disgusting logic is seen by the fewest people possible. >.<

EDIT2: Yeah, iMad. It's because this ****ing ******** impression of the starter list that I have fought against for such a long time is now cemented by this ruleset! Never mind that it's logically wrong! Never mind that it guarantees Falco, Diddy, and ICs one of their best stages in almost every one of their matchups!

 

[Chuee]

Marth gets a small-step regrab. He doesn't have to dash grab, or there wouldn't be any debate at all.

Always thought it was dash, oh well.

Dedede needs to pummel against all his standing regrabs except DK, because if he uses d-throw five times in a row, it becomes too stale for the regrab to land. The pummel is needed to prevent this staling. Since Dedede pummels slow, this allows those characters to mash out as long as they aren't at like 120%+

Exactly, which is why I said they are only infinites at >100 since below that you can mash out when he has to pummel.

 

[Tesh]

much higher than 100

 

[666Philotanus666]

To make my point a little more clear... Imagine this stagelist: Brinstar, Frigate, Delfino, BF, SV. Now imagine that this is the norm, and that people are attacking Brinstar because it's the only thing they really can attack. Would you accept the answer "Just strike it" to this stagelist? Why not? After all, this is just exactly the opposite setup. Sure, you're going to end up on MK's 3rd or 4th best stage in almost every matchup (save for a rare few that enjoy Delfino or Frigate), but you can strike his best stage, and the other stage that's really amazing for him in the list! Would this be okay?

EDIT: Now I know why you guys moved the stages forum. That our disgusting logic is seen by the fewest people possible. >.<

Yes, I see your point, saw from the first post, what I'm just saying, is that we should at least be more positive about this, at least we get to srike, how about "the player with the higher character in the current tier list, chooses wichever stage he/she wants". That would be even worse than those ****ers like Falco having certain advantage in the game like a good projectile, supra priority, or just a lot of good stages.
I just hope that they realize that there are a LOT more of stages to include in a stage list that somehow are "neutral" or can "balance" one matchup, AND there's just NO need to ban them :/

P.S. I didn't get the "Now I know why you guys moved the stages forum. That our disgusting logic is seen by the fewest people possible. >.<"

 

[Sage JoWii]

BPC mad that people are stuck in their ways?

Can anyone else see the irony?

afk

 

[Gea]

So has anyone answered why Japes is not legal and Picto is besides "that's what people like"?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

BPC mad that people are stuck in their ways?

Can anyone else see the irony?

afk

I sure can't. I haven't been proven wrong yet. You're acting like ****ing flat-earthers here.

EDIT: Oh and I agree with Gea. Picto is SO ****ING HORRIBLE.

 

[AlphaZealot]

At the time the stage list came around, the only major tournament in the country that was using Japes were HOBOs. Just like MLG was basically the only ones using Green Green/Norfair.

Now that we have a base, we will be amending the stages/rules to something more appropriate as needed.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Any explanation (beyond "Xyro is an idiot") for why 5-starter with BF/FD/SV is still in use, as opposed to either 5-starter without FD or 7+ starter? Both of which are so much better?

 

[666Philotanus666]

I sure can't. I haven't been proven wrong yet. You're acting like ****ing flat-earthers here.

EDIT: Oh and I agree with Gea. Picto is SO ****ING HORRIBLE.

YAY!!! Amen!!! This Mr. BPC is so cool!
But still, there's nothing wrong with pictochat, it may be horrible to some(a lot) of people, but it just has to be legal, among with a LOT of other stages that just were removed from stagelist D:

 

[BSP]

No man, Pictochat is just terrible, and we've yet to see a reason on why it's legal despite it's proven random BS.

 

[ぱみゅ]

@Phil: Problem is not "how much", problem is "why".
"Why" more stages can be allowed, "Why" they must be banned.
Nobody here can explain them objectively.

Also, Picto is pretty much a borderline stage when comes to legality and reasoning behind it....

 

[Sage JoWii]

I sure can't. I haven't been proven wrong yet. You're acting like ****ing flat-earthers here.

EDIT: Oh and I agree with Gea. Picto is SO ****ING HORRIBLE.

Except we don't believe in something so obviously wrong? It's not as if we're saying the earth is flat; what a massive exaggeration. If you seriously need to make an analogy, allow me to assist:

I sure can't. I haven't been proven wrong yet. You're acting like ****ing americans that think nothing outside of the US matters to your american tournaments, with american attendees, using american rulesets, made by americans who have american views reflecting past american experiences involving american rule abuse and american stage list.

EDIT: Oh and I agree with Gea and JoWii. Picto is SO ****ING HORRIBLE.

Course, I'm not against foreign influences, and I'm not xenophobic being a mutt and an army brat, but you act like someone in a completely different continent has every right to ***** and moan about something he's not apart of. Like you're some Brawl jesus trying to save us from the sin of a 5-stage starter list. Well guess what? **** your hardwork, your sacrifice and all the hours you put into debating philosophical points of why we should expand our ruleset. I'll roll around in my sinful 5-stage starter list, licking the heathen off my static FD, and laugh as you weep over how 'you tried to save us'.

I agree w/ some things you say BPC, and Picto is the stupidest stage I've ever played on, but the BBR-RC people put time and effort, pooling TOs from across the US, in order to give us something that MOST people can be happy about MOST of the ruleset. And w/ a forum of people that looooovvvveeee to ***** (cuz honestly, you gotta be a ***** to whine about a websites layout being too colorful, or have too much emphasis on Brawl), I'd say this ruleset is a very nice accomplishment.

Tl;dr- WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH, cuz that's what you sound like. Flat-earthers my ***.

 

[Gea]

YAY!!! Amen!!! This Mr. BPC is so cool!
But still, there's nothing wrong with pictochat, it may be horrible to some(a lot) of people, but it just has to be legal, among with a LOT of other stages that just were removed from stagelist D:

I actually like the stage but I can't call it fair. I used to argue that the hazards were avoidable enough not to matter, because there are things on other stages that can be really drastic for no reason, like tripping on Frigate's side platforms as they pull away or Ronald (the ghost on Yoshi's) messing up your aerial/saving the other person.

But Picto has that damn slanted line, and for that reason alone I have to give it the thumbs down. There is enough video evidence of it screwing people in tournament play that I can't say it should be legal. People like it otherwise because it has good blastzones and is a sorta good alternative to FD. Oh well.

 

[Bizkit047]

What people really need to remember is that this ruleset can change very quickly if there are any real problems. Make no mistake, Pictochat WILL be re-discussed very quickly. Then if that stage is removed, THEN we can move onto more controversial subjects, such as getting rid of one of the two CPs that's been in nearly every stage list ruleset since 2008, or the removing of a starter into CP that's been a standard starter since Brawl release.

Quoting again. Don't forget this guys.

 

[666Philotanus666]

Yes, it's random at a very extreme point, but in satatistics Frigate Orpheon is WAY more random, but there's not a single complain about it, it's jsut about the myth that "it can kill you" but there's only one way this can "randomly" happen(when the bar with the 2 eyes appear and it blocks the left ledge). If you die because of it's hazards, then it ir your responsablity for not beeing in the "safe zone", and it's been said a lot that "they can grab, you and throw you in the hazard", TRUE!!! but they can also NOT grab you, 50-50. And if it should be banned because you MAY randomly die, then Brinstar should be banned because someone can pick MK against you, and you're practically owned. Pictochat gives/may give some players some advantage as EVERY counterpick should. As simple as "just pick it at your own 'risk'". It's jsut a matter of opinion. I just don't need to say anything else.

 

[Gea]

But saying "a character does so well there that I feel it's a free win" (which track records show otherwise, though RC and Brinstar are great for MK, no doubt) vs "well this stage has something that you can't react to that kills you" is kinda not parallel. If I recall correctly that line registers as a wall before it is drawn, and there is a video of Kismet going for the edge before the line is drawn because he has no other real options in the situation and he loses a stock where he normally wouldn't have. It's happened to me personally multiple times as well.

This isn't a matter of "he needs to airdodge and DI correctly to avoid the rockets/spikes" this is "oh ****, he couldn't have done anything there."

 

[BSP]

I actually like the stage but I can't call it fair. I used to argue that the hazards were avoidable enough not to matter, because there are things on other stages that can be really drastic for no reason, like tripping on Frigate's side platforms as they pull away or Ronald (the ghost on Yoshi's) messing up your aerial/saving the other person.

But Picto has that damn slanted line, and for that reason alone I have to give it the thumbs down. There is enough video evidence of it screwing people in tournament play that I can't say it should be legal. People like it otherwise because it has good blastzones and is a sorta good alternative to FD. Oh well.

It's not just the line. There's this big issue of random rewards going on through the whole match that is still apparently o.k. BTW that includes transformations without active hitboxes.

 

[Gea]

I think the others are somewhat more debatable on their impact, but there is no debating that damn line. It is a random death waiting to happen.

 

[Tesh]

Pictochat doesn't have flashing lights and a siren to warn you about changes.

Also about the whole " MK cp too good" issue. Adding bans for JUST that is stupid. We already have rules targetting MK, so it wouldnt be much of a stretch to just ban the use of MK on Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar. We already have rules in place that say "NO, you can't be THAT good".

Adding bans hurts everyone more than MK and removing one or both of the stages hurts other, less broken, aerial based characters.

 

[666Philotanus666]

Sure, I agree. I didn't said that it is fair, but IN MY OPINION it is just... Let's say... 85% legal for me, that could happen to you, as it could happen to your oponent. Whatever, I just don't want to start a discussion about Pictochat. It's there already, all you can hope by now is that they reconsider it's legality and it gets removed. It's been already said that this is the first version of the ruleset, not the first-last, only or everlasting one, there may or will be changes =D
EDIT: by the way, on my previous post, when I stated the MK-Brinstar stuff, it was just an example.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Let's see if I can blitz through this before I go to a meet.

>all infinites allowed

Intentional trolling aimed at DK's detected

Double standard. Please allow Ganon to always pick Norfair.

You're not the first person to bring up the two stage ban idea. The problem is that it actually nerfs characters while you're trying to nerf MK's counterpick selection. How is this? Let's take characters who have their best two stages as FD and SV. What if the MK user bans FD & SV, and then opponent bans RC & Brinstar. The MK will still have Delfino, and the opponent will be screwed out of his best two CPs. Such characters are usually Diddy, Ice Climbers, and Falco. So while trying to avoid Brinstar & RC by adding a double ban, you're also nerfing yourself from your likely own CPs. There are other situations than just FD/SV. Don't forget that MK can generally handle any stage just fine.

Let's not forget that the MK would have no problem striking FD & SV game 1 either. It just seems like it would make more sense to just scrap one of the two stages in the long run...or another solution that's obvious but I don't want to get into.

If your character isn't good on lots of stages, that is a character flaw that shouldn't receive compensation.

I really like this ruleset, and think the specific LGL for Meta Knight is a great idea.

However, all infinites being legal? I think that really needs to be reconsidered...

^Refuted above^

This is my thoughts exactly.

You're catering to the players by removing a more extreme aspect of the Meta Knight match-up by limiting his ledge grabs even further, but you decide that Donkey Kong and the infinited crew have to deal with match-ups that are just as game breaking, if not more? You're creating a double-standard which should be addressed. I hardly see how banning said infinites is negative to the community at all. It encourages character diversity at tournaments and attracts more players since they can feel more confident about their character choices.

It doesn't encourage character diversity. If your character has a 100-0 match-up, then you have to learn a secondary specifically for that match-up. Two characters is more diverse than one.

The difference between the MK limit and a limit on infinites is that MK needs it, seeing as he'll never be banned. DK, on the other hand, doesn't need the infinite ban to prevent game-breakage.

All infinites allowed? The King D3 small-step, the grab release infinites, the other ones not including the Ice Climbers: You guys are actually serious with this?

To Rainbow Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Brinstar with 1 ban. Are you guys trying to make it so Metaknight wins enough tournaments to become bannable?

^Addressed infinite issue above^

PS2 is not a good Meta Knight stage.

Infinites ... legal?
Give me a minute, recovering from shock...

^Addressed^

Well it does have an execution barrier compared to all the other chaingrabs

I learnt how to infinite Meta Knight in two days as Ice Climbers, execution barrier is negligible.

Bull****. In the "melee era" people got a completely false idea of what a Neutral is. Static is not neutral, and should not be treated as such.

You DO know that FD is a valid neutral in Melee, right?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yep. But then people went and took some ******** logic and made it a neutral in brawl... A game where it's one of the more extreme counterpicks for top tiers.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I know, it's silly. Your previous post just gave off the vibe that Melee players were in the wrong for having static neutrals, when it was actually that way coincidentally because the static stages are the most neutral.

 

[Lord Chair]

How indefinitely crass.

Any tournaments that do not follow this ruleset will not be eligible for stickies on SWF or featured coverage on AllisBrawl.

Unpretentious, over-the-top blackmailing and abuse of power.

This is impossible to justify. AllisBrawl has been a ridiculously corrupt sandbox for personal entertainment for long enough, that is acceptable considering the owners of the site (about whom I will say no more).

SWF is another thing. It has been an international hub of competitive Smash for more than 10 years. It has been the place where everything was built up from the scratch, this site has made competitive Smash. And now it does something entirely unwarranted for, I can't begin to comprehend what the point is of the Unity ruleset.

What 'unity' does this create? Alex Strife isn't in there, neither is Plank. The ruleset is stupid and controversial.

It's fine creating a 'unity' ruleset, just don't blackmail us into using it.

'But you're free to do as you please!'

YES BUT WHAT'S THE POINT IF I'D GET ARBITRARILY DISCRIMINATED OUT OF HYPE

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Did I just see people pointing to Melee and saying WELL IT WAS A STARTER IN MELEE.

I'm going to punch someone.

Since when have Melee and Brawl played the same at a high level? Hell, since when have they played the same at a low level?

 

[AlphaZealot]

What 'unity' does this create? Alex Strife isn't in there, neither is Plank. The ruleset is stupid and controversial

Really? I mean really? You might want to research a little right now.

 

[Sinister Slush]

What 'unity' does this create? Alex Strife isn't in there, neither is Plank. The ruleset is stupid and controversial.

Are.. Are you unaware of what Planks recent events have been?

 

[Browny]

lol @ self appointed title
"Head of Smash Community Growth"

and then going and splitting the community so hard, I doubt you could split it more if you tried.

 

[Lord Chair]

Really? I mean really? You might want to research a little right now.

Interesting how you are only capable of responding to 1 trivial detail.