The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Budget Player Cadet_]

inb4dddwalkoffs

DDD can walk exactly 6 characters up the slope. Wolf, DK, Link, Lucario, Bowser, and Ganon IIRC. Wolf, DK, and Bowser already get infinited/***** by DDD. Ganon has a really bad matchup with DDD, same with Link. Lucario is the only one that really matters, and that matchup is also infamously bad. So in short... DDD really doesn't gain that much.

@San: but "how things are going" doesn't give us anything more than the status quo. It just says "this is how things are", it doesn't even begin to say "this is how things shoud be". That kind of thinking leads to things like... well, PS2 being banned, 5-starter stage lists with FD, and nobody even giving YI:M a chance.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Lucario also has a really bad MU with D3, it's his worst.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Beats me... I support japes. But your statement on PS2 is just... bad. I'm sorry, but there's no excuse to clamor for PS2's banning any more. The stage is completely legitimate.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285744
Read that. It's long (if you want you can skip to the box at the bottom of the first post for a really clear argumentation; but even that's pretty long), but it really makes it very clear why PS2 should not be banned; the TL;DR version is: "There is not a single overcentralizing, overly random, or overtly anticompetitive factor involved in the stage, and the only arguments against it are based on an incredibly closed-minded, limited, and flawed view of what competition is". Seriously, don't argue against PS2. I will destroy you.

wow. that actually changed my mind on it. thank you for showing me that.

but like we still said, why no japes? argghh i don't get why it isn't legal at all. WILL SOME! IN THE BBR EXPLAIN THE REASONING BEHIND THIS?

and again, larger starter list=more equality against top tier. hence the 7 stage starter should be wats up

 

[san.]

@BPC
Exactly. There's a reason why the BRC was created when there already existed the BBR ruleset. Think of why they decided to overrule the BBR in the first place. It will be harder to argue your way to legalize certain stages. They are just trying to make everyone happy, which may result in things being finished half-heartedly in order to compromise.

I'm crazy though because I want Pirate Ship legal.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

sorry about above post, it double posted on it's own. weird

edit: @san. i can see pirate ship being fun in tourney. i mean idk about the stage honestly as i've legitly not played on it in over a year and don't remember more than the canon balls.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@BPC
Exactly. There's a reason why the BRC was created when there already existed the BBR ruleset. Think of why they decided to overrule the BBR in the first place. It will be harder to argue your way to legalize certain stages. They are just trying to make everyone happy, which may result in things being finished half-heartedly in order to compromise.

I'm crazy though because I want Pirate Ship legal.

Doesn't mean I'm not going to stop stubbornly trying. TOs are people too... I think...

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'm crazy though because I want Pirate Ship legal.

I guess I'm crazy too.

 

[Tesh]

At this point, we may as well wait for the BBRRC to respond later today.

 

[T-block]

stages that are, you know, actually neutral

I hate this place.

No stage is actually neutral.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Anyone wanna do the honors and compile the important posts over the last little while into a nice, easy to chew bundle for the BBRRC members?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I would.

But it would probably get me infracted.

 

[KageMurphy]

"Behind a computer screen"?

I live in Germany. Germany's most famous tournament, BiB, ran a 3-starter stagelist (BF/SV/FD) and banned RC, PS2, and most other similar stages (except Brinstar). I have visited pretty much every notable brawl tournament in germany since October 2010, made it out of pools at every single one of them (including the two major nationals since then), and have won MMs against at least somewhat notable players. So no, you're wrong.

Who said I was calling you out? ohohohohoh

"it may be hard to grasp the concept of a strike"

Brinstar/RC/Frigate/FD/BF

You have two strikes. I pick MK. This must be fine, right? After all, you can strike both of MK's really good stages on this list.

The first 3 aren't neutrals so what's striking have to do with anything?

FD/BF/SV/LC/YI

You have two strikes. I pick ICs. This must be fine, right? After all, you can strike both of MK's really good stages on this list.

Starting to see the problem here? Not to mention that in including FD in a 5-starter stagelist, you snub stages like PS1, PS2, CS, etc; stages that are, you know, actually neutral. Take a look at this list:

BF/SV/LC/YI/Brinstar

Sure, you can always strike Brinstar, but doesn't it kind of stick out? This is because the stage is so ridiculously non-neutral that it's ridiculous to include it as a starter. There are simply so many more neutral stages! And then on to the last part of your statement.

PS1 I'd but over Lylat if anything, PS2 barely makes the cut for CP, no way its neutral buddy.

Stop using obvious CP stages as examples in striking!

"Stages with given walk offs/grab release walk offs or that move like Castle and Plaza should never be neutral, same with dumb hazards like Halberd."

Why not? You assume this as if it was such obvious common knowledge... It isn't. Notice how many people get walked off Delfino or CS in high level play. Find me some vids, come on. I want high level players getting killed due to walkoff/wall abuse on these stages! (Admittedly, I myself died to a sheik grab release chaingrab off of Delfino once. But this was before I knew that Sheik could do that. It will not happen to me again because, well, I'm smart and I improve.)

...Can't find anything? Oh right, that's because it doesn't happen. There are a few matchup-based issues (Sharking, Grab release chaingrabs, etc.) but good players don't die to gimmicky bull**** on these stages, in the same way Warios don't die to Ganon's grab release infinite very often. And if it's just a few pesky matchups, strike it. It's not like you can't strike all the stages that a certain character is good on in the matchup (like with FD/SV/BF in a five starter stage list).

Seriously, the statement "movement/hazards disqualifies for starter status" is not only not something you can just assume out of hand, it's also not really that sensible when you think about it.

As long as this games been out I do dare say its common knowledge! Also, why's it only gotta be high level? Hmmmm, noobs can't get ****ed over? Ignorance! And not all matches are recorded, I've seen it first hand tho, trust me, I'm good for it!


Which seat should I take~

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

well i just joined this discussion last 2 pages so i don't really know where to look so i don't really qualify for compiling that or i would. but basicall wouldn't it basically be summarized as:

-look into the legality of japes and YI:M and don't just dismiss them as these stages have no banworthy qualities

-look into making the 7 stage starter list the norm as it allows for a more balanced first round instead of having a 5 stage starter as it has 3 legit counter pick stages for most characters in favor of top tier

-mayb look into the 9 stage starter list and just to make sure this isn't over looked actually discuss the stages Jungle Japes and Yoshi's Island Melee.

?

 

[Tin Man]

Why isn't YI:M legal? Come on folks just legalize it already.

actually i forgot about that stage tesh, good call why the hell isn't that stage legal? it doesn't even have hazards and it seems like a completely fair stage that no1 gets to play on because it hasn't been legalized for what is apparently no reason.

also why not have FD and those stages as starters? uh-oh mindgames

Walk off on the right and side lol.

Anyways, I think a 7 stage starter list is the best. Throw in Castle Siege and PS1. I think that offers the best compromise for players. I remember Alpha Zealot explaining on the 1st page that the reasons are emotional as to why FD is a starter. Saying people wouldn't be able to adapt to it if it wasn't. Lemme find the post and edit it in.

I think the main issue with not having FD as a starter was...well almost every tournament in the country uses it as a starter, and this is a practical ruleset.

I'm also slowing being convinced that moving FD to CP would be a good idea, however what stage would take its place?

There we go.

 

[Tesh]

Who said I was calling you out? ohohohohoh


The first 3 aren't neutrals so what's striking have to do with anything?

PS1 I'd but over Lylat if anything, PS2 barely makes the cut for CP, no way its neutral buddy.

Stop using obvious CP stages as examples in striking!

As long as this games been out I do dare say its common knowledge! Also, why's it only gotta be high level? Hmmmm, noobs can't get ****ed over? Ignorance! And not all matches are recorded, I've seen it first hand tho, trust me, I'm good for it!


Which seat should I take~

My god, you guys are going to get into a nice little flame war now. Core differences in philosophy, you guys shouldn't even be trying to argue with each other.

@ Tin man, ask yourself why normal walkoffs are bad. Then look at a picture of Yoshis Island Melee. Then think hard about it and tell me why YI M walkoff is bad.



And there is basically no way to get Brawl players that were Melee players to move away from the whole " but it was like that in melee, dude" mentality.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Emotional reasons? That should have no bearing on a competitive ruleset.


Also the walkoff on YI:M is hardly a normal walk-off, and should be treated as such. D3 can CG, what, 6 characters? And if you can really be CG'd by Falco for long enough to matter there, then you suck because that means that you were standing there, on the hill.

 

[Tin Man]

@ Tin man, ask yourself why normal walkoffs are bad. Then look at a picture of Yoshis Island Melee. Then think hard about it and tell me why YI M walkoff is bad.

You mean to tell me that its walk off doesn't offer the same properties that allow DDD to run characters off the stage?

 

[Tesh]

DDD is not why normal walkoffs are banned. and no it doesn't allow him to run as many characters off. The slope means you land earlier and he doesn't have a big enough frame advantage big enough to regrab alot of characters anymore.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yes. D3 can't chaingrab most of the characters he normally can off that hill.

He can CG 6 total characters up it. With the exception of DK and Lucario none of those characters are particularly relevant.

DK vs. Dedede is a laughable MU, and Lucario can just deal.

 

[Conviction]

I would like to see pirate ship legalized too...

 

[Tesh]

Don't like YI M, you can ban it against DDD. At least he can't just take you to Mario Circuit afterwards like MK can do with his CPs.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Don't like YI M, you can ban it against DDD. At least he can't just take you to Bridge of Eldin afterwards like MK can do with his CPs.

Sorry, Circuit just isn't as hard of a CP for D3 as Brinstar is for D3.

 

[san.]

Can't you edge camp on YI:M?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Walkoff camping is severely reduced in effectiveness by the slope. Especially since you'll die to a light breeze that close to the upper and lower blastzones. It's a high risk-high reward position. You can maybe take a stock, but you're in extreme danger of losing one yourself if your opponent knows how to take you on there.

 

[Tin Man]

I guess he still has some other strong stages like Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege. In terms of YI:M. I believe certain other stages have a better chance of making it (Jungle Japes, and Norfair, and even Distant Planet).

YI:M is about in the same ball park as Port Town and Pirate ship.

San brings up a good point. If your MK on the middle of YI:M, you could conceptually hide beneath the blocks and run the timer.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Who said I was calling you out? ohohohohoh

An easy assumption to make when the first thing I got told was "lol you don't go to tournaments STFU", and that only recently died (to be replaced with "LOL you lost to a Lucas STFU".

The first 3 aren't neutrals so what's striking have to do with anything?

If they were starters. Hypothetical. If they were in the starter list.

Also, please use correct terminology. When you say "neutral" I have no idea if you're referring to the stage's inherent quality (neutral or polar) or its placement in the stagelist (Neutral = starter). The former is misunderstanding what I'm trying to say completely, as I'm trying to point out that FD actually is about as neutral as, well, Frigate or Delfino. The latter is just ignoring the argument completely.

PS1 I'd but over Lylat if anything, PS2 barely makes the cut for CP, no way its neutral buddy.

Why not? I keep asking these questions and you keep on, well, not providing any reasoning. Why not? Give me a good reason I haven't debunked yet.

Stop using obvious CP stages as examples in striking!

Stop avoiding the point!

As long as this games been out I do dare say its common knowledge! Also, why's it only gotta be high level? Hmmmm, noobs can't get ****ed over? Ignorance! And not all matches are recorded, I've seen it first hand tho, trust me, I'm good for it!

...Not sure if serious. You know what else Noobs get ****ed over by? And I mean all the time, REALLY hard?

FD's Ledge.

There's a very good reason we create our rulesets based around the top of the metagame, not the bottom. We do this so that noobs have the chance to improve in the first place.

I think the main issue with not having FD as a starter was...well almost every tournament in the country uses it as a starter, and this is a practical ruleset.

I'm also slowing being convinced that moving FD to CP would be a good idea, however what stage would take its place?

None. Just add PS1 and either CS, PS2, or Delfino. Seriously.

 

[Overswarm]

I'm not even going to spend time trying to debate this stuff. They aren't really interested in reason or backing things up with tournament results. Never have been.

I think the main issue with not having FD as a starter was...well almost every tournament in the country uses it as a starter, and this is a practical ruleset.

There's your issue in a nutshell. The goal of this ruleset isn't to make something competitive. It's a circlejerk of like-minded people making things that they enjoy. It is the inverse of the items-only crowd, and the miniscule attempts at compromise are a mockery of the term.

Just ignore this ruleset. I've been part of tournaments and circuits for quite some time and have personally stretched the advantages I can get from any stage. Distant Planet, Port Town Aero Dive, Jungle Japes, Onett, Green Greens, Skyworld, I've used them all and know exactly how far you can push them. The issue isn't the stages; it is that the people here don't care if they work. They just want them gone.

Just ignore this ruleset. Any good TO would.

 

[Gea]

Yeah, I agree with Tin Man. Why are we arguing for Pipes when there are other stages that deserve being looked at more? Even if Pipes isn't broken, it's definitely got more questionable blastzones and obstacles than some other stages.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I guess he still has some other strong stages like Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege. In terms of YI:M. I believe certain other stages have a better chance of making it (Jungle Japes, and Norfair, and even Distant Planet).

YI:M is about in the same ball park as Port Town and Pirate ship.

San brings up a good point. If your MK on the middle of YI:M, you could conceptually hide beneath the blocks and run the timer.

I don't see a problem with this. Port Town is banned because people refuse to learn the timing of the cars and (GASP) it's a CP for Metaknight.
Flaw in that logic: RC and Brinstar are both better for MK.

The Cars can be seen coming if you're paying attention.

Pirate Ship is the same thing, people refuse to pay attention to the stage, especially the extremely telegraphed bombs.

Also, no, MK can't.

He'll either have to grab ledges, eventually using all 35. At which point, just time him out. Then you win regardless of stock and percent.

Or he'll have to come up to restore his jumps, at which point he's vulnerable.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I really want to agree with Overswarm. But ignoring this just simply isn't feasible because it's essentially setting itself up perfectly to become the new norm.

@Gea: yeah, pretty much. This is why I don't bring up PTAD much any more; I know the stage is legit, I've played it a lot, it's my absolute favorite stage... But nobody is willing to even look at it seriously.


EDIT: Oh yeah and Chibo says he has fairly important data regarding both 5-starter vs 9-starter and FD as a starter. Hopefully he'll post it after he's done in class or something...

 

[Gea]

Hey AZ. I see you reading the thread. Can you explain you guys' general logic with the stagelist so our discussion can be... constructive?

 

[Tesh]

Sorry, Circuit just isn't as hard of a CP for D3 as Brinstar is for D3.

Eldin would kind of highlight how slow DDD is methinks.

Can't you edge camp on YI:M?

Olimar is the only character that can grab people below him on the slope. Its nearly impossible to actually camp the edge and bthrow people for early kills on this stage. DDD can't even grab people that jab his shield.

Walkoff camping is severely reduced in effectiveness by the slope. Especially since you'll die to a light breeze that close to the upper and lower blastzones. It's a high risk-high reward position. You can maybe take a stock, but you're in extreme danger of losing one yourself if your opponent knows how to take you on there.

I guess he still has some other strong stages like Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege. In terms of YI:M. I believe certain other stages have a better chance of making it (Jungle Japes, and Norfair, and even Distant Planet).

YI:M is about in the same ball park as Port Town and Pirate ship.

San brings up a good point. If your MK on the middle of YI:M, you could conceptually hide beneath the blocks and run the timer.

Hide under the blocks? How? You mean on the ledge? This ruleset has it limited AND you can destroy the blocks AND he can plank on any other stage just as well. Unless you meant hiding on stage under the higher blocks.....which isn't useful because the blocks can be destroyed. MK does fine here just like everywhere else.

Yeah, I agree with Tin Man. Why are we arguing for Pipes when there are other stages that deserve being looked at more? Even if Pipes isn't broken, it's definitely got more questionable blastzones and obstacles than some other stages.

Questionable blast zones? How can you people argue in favor of Japes and then cite "questionable blast zones against Pipes". If Pipes is too small, Japes is too big.

 

[KazeKun]

Stage Knowledge should be a part of the game, more than all think.

Pictchat should be in <3

 

[Chuee]

I don't see a problem with this. Port Town is banned because people refuse to learn the timing of the cars and (GASP) it's a CP for Metaknight.
Flaw in that logic: RC and Brinstar are both better for MK.

The Cars can be seen coming if you're paying attention.

lolwut?
The cars aren't even the problem with PTAD lol.

 

[Gea]

What stages with a high ceiling do we have currently, Tesh?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

No they're not.

But a lot of people ignore the rest of the stage and focus on using the cars as a reason for banning it.

@Gea Final Destination.

 

[Gea]

FD's ceiling is considered high these days? Well I guess compared to most of our stages...

 

[Tesh]

I thought you were among the folks wanting Japes legal. I really don't think boundary size should be an issue with stages. Besides there are skillful ways to increase your survival on YI M.

 

[Overswarm]

FD's ceiling is considered high these days? Well I guess compared to most of our stages...

For the most part there are only three stage sizes. You can see them in the editor. The big difference in ceiling "height" is the height of the platforms, not the stage itself.

EDIT: Oh yeah and Chibo says he has fairly important data regarding both 5-starter vs 9-starter and FD as a starter. Hopefully he'll post it after he's done in class or something...

Seen it. It's not. His line of thinking is "Yoshi's Island isn't REALLY that much worse for Diddy, is it?". Seriously.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Doesn't AZ also think that Norfair is Diddy's best stage?